Stuff that is totally legal to do to your kids

[momma2three]

I think this thread wouldn't have gotten quite such an extremely negative reaction if it hadn't come hot on the heels of  the thread about hot saucing kids.  Lots of people think that's a "creative" and perfectly legal punishment. I actually figured this one was a spinoff of that one, before I clicked into it.

[SKL]

I got to the hot sauce thread after it was locked.  Otherwise I was burning to ask a question:  is it really true that requiring a kid to eat something is always abuse?  Because I have required Miss A to eat beans, and I thought it was a rather brilliant "consequence" at the time.

 

One thing is for sure, folks sure do have a broad range of ideas when it comes to discipline.

[momma2three]

I got to the hot sauce thread after it was locked.  Otherwise I was burning to ask a question:  is it really true that requiring a kid to eat something is always abuse?  Because I have required Miss A to eat beans, and I thought it was a rather brilliant "consequence" at the time.

 

One thing is for sure, folks sure do have a broad range of ideas when it comes to discipline.

 

Are you feeding her beans precisely because they cause her a great deal of physical pain?  If yes, then that's abusive, IMO.

[SKL]

No I would not think so.  Of course it would depend on how far you took that if she refused.

 

I wouldn't have tried it on someone who would have fought it (beyond the dramatic tears).

 

[PeacefulChaos]

I think this thread wouldn't have gotten quite such an extremely negative reaction if it hadn't come hot on the heels of  the thread about hot saucing kids.  Lots of people think that's a "creative" and perfectly legal punishment. I actually figured this one was a spinoff of that one, before I clicked into it.

Ah... I didn't really get involved in the hot sauce thread.   

 

I got to the hot sauce thread after it was locked.  Otherwise I was burning to ask a question:  is it really true that requiring a kid to eat something is always abuse?  Because I have required Miss A to eat beans, and I thought it was a rather brilliant "consequence" at the time.

 

One thing is for sure, folks sure do have a broad range of ideas when it comes to discipline.

I wouldn't think so.  I mean, I don't think that saying, 'This is dinner, this is what you eat, if you don't want it you can be hungry or make yourself pbj' is abuse.  

But there are probably some extremes that do?  I really have no idea.  

[SKL]

Are you feeding her beans precisely because they cause her a great deal of physical pain?  If yes, then that's abusive, IMO.

 

No, that's not what they were saying on the thread.  Some people were saying it is abuse to require a child to eat something she does not want to eat.

[momma2three]

No, that's not what they were saying on the thread.  Some people were saying it is abuse to require a child to eat something she does not want to eat.

 

I think that it can be abusive, and is certainly taken to abusive lengths, and often goes hand-in-hand with other forms of physical and emotional abuse.  It is, after all, at root about controlling the child's body.  There have been children who died from being forced fed too much food (just one in the past couple weeks), and other cases of children who were severely malnourished when removed from their homes, and their parents claimed it was because "they wouldn't eat what was served them."  I would certainly think long and hard about your reasons for forcing a child to eat something that they don't want to.

 

I admit that I could be missing something on this thread, but all of the comments I've been reading have been mostly about the hot saucing.

[SKL]

Anything can be abusive if taken to an extreme, sure.  People need to look at the entirety of the child's situation before judging IMO.

[PeacefulChaos]

I think that it can be abusive, and is certainly taken to abusive lengths, and often goes hand-in-hand with other forms of physical and emotional abuse.  It is, after all, at root about controlling the child's body.  There have been children who died from being forced fed too much food (just one in the past couple weeks), and other cases of children who were severely malnourished when removed from their homes, and their parents claimed it was because "they wouldn't eat what was served them."  I would certainly think long and hard about your reasons for forcing a child to eat something that they don't want to.

 

I admit that I could be missing something on this thread, but all of the comments I've been reading have been mostly about the hot saucing.

 

This comment baffles me.  

What are people serving that the kids refuse to eat?  KWIM?  

Even in families that eat what others may consider strange, they've always eaten it.  So the kids have grown up eating it and it has become normal to them, I would think.  That's what I've always seen, anyway.

 

So I just have to wonder what sort of things parents were claiming the kids wouldn't eat in cases like these.  :confused:  My kids don't love everything, but there's more often one thing they don't like than nothing they do at a meal, if that makes sense.  And not because I'm catering it to them - just because it's what we've always eaten.  Everyone has their own food preferences, but if (like my kids) you grow up in a house where rice, veggies, and meat are a regular thing, you will still love the meat and rice even if you don't love the red peppers.  Or you will love the meat and veggies but add some soy sauce to your rice because that's how you like it.  Or you'll be like Pink and go 'OOOOHHHH RRIIIIIICCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!' when she sees it coming and devour that and the veggies but pick at the meat.  

Anyway, like I said, those statements confuse me.  I feel like there has to be some sort of really twisted idea of how kids should be fed if they really won't eat anything those parents give them.  Or the parents are lying.

 

Anyway, that was off track, sorry.  ...

[mytwomonkeys]

I think this thread wouldn't have gotten quite such an extremely negative reaction if it hadn't come hot on the heels of the thread about hot saucing kids. Lots of people think that's a "creative" and perfectly legal punishment. I actually figured this one was a spinoff of that one, before I clicked into it.

I'm glad I missed that thread :( I remember seeing one here with a video of a mother torturing her young son with hot sauce and showers. It traumatized me.

 

I just thought the video shared here was giggle worthy because I took it for what it was worth, merely tongue in cheek nonsense. I don't spank my kids ever or try to creatively punish them at all.

 

Had I seen the thread about hot sauce, I might feel differently too :(

 

I understand the negative responses better now.

[momma2three]

This comment baffles me.  

What are people serving that the kids refuse to eat?  KWIM?  

Even in families that eat what others may consider strange, they've always eaten it.  So the kids have grown up eating it and it has become normal to them, I would think.  That's what I've always seen, anyway.

 

So I just have to wonder what sort of things parents were claiming the kids wouldn't eat in cases like these.   :confused:  My kids don't love everything, but there's more often one thing they don't like than nothing they do at a meal, if that makes sense.  And not because I'm catering it to them - just because it's what we've always eaten.  Everyone has their own food preferences, but if (like my kids) you grow up in a house where rice, veggies, and meat are a regular thing, you will still love the meat and rice even if you don't love the red peppers.  Or you will love the meat and veggies but add some soy sauce to your rice because that's how you like it.  Or you'll be like Pink and go 'OOOOHHHH RRIIIIIICCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!' when she sees it coming and devour that and the veggies but pick at the meat.  

Anyway, like I said, those statements confuse me.  I feel like there has to be some sort of really twisted idea of how kids should be fed if they really won't eat anything those parents give them.  Or the parents are lying.

 

Anyway, that was off track, sorry.  ...

 

Yeah, in these cases there are lots of issues.  I'm pretty sure the girl who froze to death last winter (I believe it was a Gothard situation) was a case where the parents weren't feeding her because they said she was a "picky eater" and so they were only feeding her food that she couldn't/wouldn't eat.  She was a pre-teen and like 50lbs I think.

 

I think it's important to keep in mind that there are actually people who believe that this kind of parenting is appropriate are on this board.  One person's "I try to train my kid not to be a picky eater" does not equal "I try to train my kid not to be a picky eater."  The first person's attempts may be extremely sane, and the second person's absolutely qualify as abuse.

[SKL]

This comment baffles me.  

What are people serving that the kids refuse to eat?  KWIM?  

Even in families that eat what others may consider strange, they've always eaten it.  So the kids have grown up eating it and it has become normal to them, I would think.  That's what I've always seen, anyway.

 

So I just have to wonder what sort of things parents were claiming the kids wouldn't eat in cases like these.   :confused:  My kids don't love everything, but there's more often one thing they don't like than nothing they do at a meal, if that makes sense.  And not because I'm catering it to them - just because it's what we've always eaten.  Everyone has their own food preferences, but if (like my kids) you grow up in a house where rice, veggies, and meat are a regular thing, you will still love the meat and rice even if you don't love the red peppers.  Or you will love the meat and veggies but add some soy sauce to your rice because that's how you like it.  Or you'll be like Pink and go 'OOOOHHHH RRIIIIIICCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!' when she sees it coming and devour that and the veggies but pick at the meat.  

Anyway, like I said, those statements confuse me.  I feel like there has to be some sort of really twisted idea of how kids should be fed if they really won't eat anything those parents give them.  Or the parents are lying.

 

Anyway, that was off track, sorry.  ...

 

I have heard this excuse given in cases where the child has been shifted around from home to home - foster care or whatever.  These kids who have gone through a lot of disruptions, possibly involving abuse, can be extremely difficult to parent.  But yeah, sometimes parents do lie about this as well.  It really is amazing what some people will do to children.

 

 

[SKL]

My older son refuses to eat vegetables of any kind.  When I've insisted he throws up.  When he has willingly tried to eat them he throws up.  It's crazy.  I don't think it's normal.  I'm not happy about it.  Just pointing out this can exist.  (And go figure the rest of us LOVE vegetables and always have.)

 

So I'm thinking if I were to I dunno tie him down and force broccoli down his throat or would not give him food hoping he'd give in (he won't), than on the news it might sound pretty abusive.  KWIM?

Again, I probably don't have an average kid in this realm. 

 

But you would not do that, because there are other ways to meet his nutritional needs.  And it's not about you controlling him, but him getting enough nutrition.  That's the distinction in my mind.

 

I have a kid who has been difficult to keep nourished at times.  A loving parent finds a way, and if she can't, she consults a professional for help.  A little flexibility can go a long way.  Even though it may mean having to cross off another item from the "I will never" list.

[Guest]

Except colds and infections aren't caused by not wearing one's hat.

Yes, true that. One year, my ds, who was about 3or 4, did not want summer to come to an end (I guess!) and insisted on continuing to wear shorts into the fall. One morning, we were going to the Pumpkin Patch on a field trip. There was frost on the ground. He insisted he wanted to wear shorts. i said, "ok, buddy. But I'm bringing along these sweatpants just in case it seems too cold." When we arrived - I'll never forget it - one mom looked at me like I was OUT of my cotton-pickin' mind, letting DS go out in shorts. But, unsurprisingly, within about 5 minutes, he thought better of his clothing and asked for the pants. Lesson learned - no big deal. IMO, by not making it a big battle, I let him see that I might know a thing or two, rather than freeze because he was trying to save face or punish him by not going for pumpkins because he wasn't dressed appropriately.

 

You know I'm not saying I can't conceive of a reason I would ever dish out a punishment - I leave open the possibility that it could happen. But I'm not feeling the need for it at this time. My kids are good, but not perfect and neither am I. I just hope that I allow for the fact that we all have a grouchy day from time to time and we all make a dumb choice now and then.

 

BTW, I'm not "offended" by this thread. I just don't think it's a humor-worthy topic.

[UmMusa]

I don't punish my kids. At all. Ever. LOL. They are very nice children. So even a funny punishment thread confuses me!

 

This just made me chuckle.

 

[SKL]

I do not have easy kids for the record.  I think the biggest thing is that I choose not to make certain things an issue and I don't see my role as overlord who must always win the argument and always be in control.

 

Nothing against that philosophy.  I don't consider myself an "overlord" either.  However, I have to ask.  What would you do if you learned that your kid had been stealing when he is away from home?  Repeatedly, despite having been "talked to"?  Despite having been taken back to make restitution and apologize?

[susankenny]

This just made me chuckle.

 

Made me laugh too.

 

Either her kids are amazing... or the ones that run all over without consequences, lol.

 

Hopefully the first. I often see the latter.

[mommymilkies]

I think that it can be abusive, and is certainly taken to abusive lengths, and often goes hand-in-hand with other forms of physical and emotional abuse.  It is, after all, at root about controlling the child's body.  There have been children who died from being forced fed too much food (just one in the past couple weeks), and other cases of children who were severely malnourished when removed from their homes, and their parents claimed it was because "they wouldn't eat what was served them."  I would certainly think long and hard about your reasons for forcing a child to eat something that they don't want to.

 

I admit that I could be missing something on this thread, but all of the comments I've been reading have been mostly about the hot saucing.

I agree.  Now, there are medical reasons to "force" food, of course.  My 6 yo is one of those reasons.  She is "that kid" who will starve herself and I have to strongly encourage her to eat-not as punishment, but to keep her alive.  I don't force food into her mouth, though.  That crosses a line.  My forcing is more in line with bribery out of utter necessity. 

[shawthorne44]

ETA: First time would have been talking, etc.  

 

 

If my child stole more than once?  After I recovered from the heart attack, I would let my child save one toy, one of each type of clothing (maybe 2).  

Then we'd have a garage sale until the value of what was stolen was made (or twice the value if it wasn't returnable in original condition).  

If we decided to get therapy, then that would be paid for at the garage sale.  

There are some things that are verboten.  

[susankenny]

Lol, Susan Kenny. The teens are pretty good kids. A students, volunteers, helpful around the house. Ds is a sweetie. You're surely not suggesting I'm fibbing about my own kids ? :)

No. You know your kids. I don't :)

 

But certainly a child growing up with no consequences (outside of natural) and being a "joy" is not the norm. Do you agree?

 

And without meaning this as a direct statement to you at all, often parents that withhold consequences are less than fun to hang around with, or maybe I am just jaded by my own homeschool group, lol. Perhaps they are not the norm. I hope so!

[Guest]

Peaceful Chaos, (sorry I can't quote segments on my ipad), about rudeness. I'm not sure if we two would interpret the kids' behavior differently or if you're talking about an episode of rudeness I haven't experienced with my kids. With my teens, if they talked or body-language talked to me in a sassy, rude way, I would treat it exactly as I would my friend or my dh. I would say something like, "That 'whatever' and eye-roll is an awfully mean way to speak to me." They aren't going to disagree. With my youngest, there have been times when I have said (very firmly) "you do not say such a thing towards your mother, or anyone else for that matter!" Really, I don't see what point there would be in adding some additional infliction of pain into the equation.

 

I sometimes here the sentiment that " you're not their friend, you're their mother." In a sense, true -sometimes I have to do or say something that will not be popular with them. But, in a way, I DO think it is my goal to be their friend. I think it was Stephen Covey who once said he wants his kids to feel like he is their friend because, "It's a grievous thing to offend your best buddy". I find this true. My kids (especially my teens) are probably as unlikely to say something really rude to me as they are their best peer friends.

[SKL]

I agree.  After trying some basic things to stop it, if it continued, I'd figure something is going on that I can't address on my own.

 

Sure, but in the mean time, you still have to send her out into the world.  It's not like a quick session with a shrink is going to fix everything just like that.

[SKL]

Who said anything about quick ?

 

When you are sending your kid out into the world knowing she has a stealing problem, you have to do something that will curb the behavior *now.*  Not someday.

 

Sometimes punishment is better than the alternative.

 

It's great if you never find yourself in that situation.  All kids are different.

[susankenny]

Well. We have lots of friends who like to spend time with us, so I guess we're fun enough :)

 

It's the norm in my experience that I don't need to punish children to have mostly reasonable behaviors from them. I worked as a nanny for a long time, as well as a tutor, and so while my experience is limited it isn't limited to just my own three.

 

It's my experience that if you treat children with respect you mostly get it back.

 

YMMV.

Agreed. My comments really aren't about your family, so don't take offense please. I'm really directing my statement to people that are in my real life that don't give imposed consequences. Their kids are always doing what they please & the moms just seem to think that if they fall, have other kids get upset with them, get in trouble by the facility manager, etc. that their kids will learn through natural consequences. It makes for miserable company.

[SKL]

Did it work?  I remember you talking about this some time ago.

 

I admit that I'd be absolutely stumped about that.

 

It cleared up for a long time.  Then there was another incident.  There was punishment (not spanking in case anyone wonders) and I changed her diet (again) and took her back to the chiropractor, since they say there is something that happens to her spine that makes her crave sugar.  Since then there has not been a reoccurance.  Knocking on wood.

 

My other kid would never even dream of doing such a thing.  And my lil klepto sure didn't get it from me.  There are times in parenting when things just seem insane.

[Guest]

No. You know your kids. I don't :)

 

But certainly a child growing up with no consequences (outside of natural) and being a "joy" is not the norm. Do you agree?

 

And without meaning this as a direct statement to you at all, often parents that withhold consequences are less than fun to hang around with, or maybe I am just jaded by my own homeschool group, lol. Perhaps they are not the norm. I hope so!

I don't want to speak for Sadie, but it is interesting to me that she and I have kids at the same ages.

 

Look, I have known a few kids of the type you speak, who had at least one parent who let the kid do anything. Never corrected, no guidance. Weak-willed Mousey mom with tyrannical brats. I have known a few of those. I don't know Sadie IRL, but I'm confident this is not what she's advocating and not how her kids act.

 

My kids are the same ages and I would also say they are a joy. My teens are a joy. I had some serious doubts about my little one when he was tiny! He was NOT easy; i even had him evaluated medically and neurologically because WOW. He was an alien! But he's pretty good now. :) He hasn't had any type of "punishment" in years and years.

 

With my DS 14 -as he's maturing, I am amazed at (brag alert) what a great kid he's becoming. Last week, he noticed he was running out of clean jeans and, knowing he wanted to wear jeans to co-op the next day, he tossed a load of clothes in the washer! This is what I've been aiming at for 14 years! :D to grow kids who would see a problem and just jump right in to be the solution! I was soooo pleased.

[Tammi K]

I played it for my kids and they laughed. Then my 13 yr old, pointed out that he's on the top bunk and his bedroom door squeaks so I better forget about extracting penance from his eyebrows while he sleeps! 

 

 

[AlmiraGulch]

 

 

I would never want to offend anyone, and I'm sorry that some of you were offended.

 

I thought I'd respond since the post that seems to be adding "controversy" was mine. 

 

I'm not offended by you.  It was interesting that someone said I, and the many others who liked my post, need to lighten up.  I'm usually the one making light and finding humor in things that most people would consider pushing the envelope of what is socially acceptable, so I understand the sentiment. 

 

That said, I take serious issue with the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality.  I do know that's not what YOU said at all, so stick with me here.  It's just that so very many conservative religious sites advocate that, and I just cannot and will not ever be able to understand that mentality.  When I see things like "GodTube", it causes a visceral reaction, because I've seen so much horror being inflicted on children in the name of god and "good" parenting that it has become a visceral, knee-jerk reaction for me.  It's the one thing I just cannot find any humor in.

 

Now again, I know that's not what YOU said.  But when I watch that video, and when I read the title of your thread, my gut reacts as if that's what it's leaning toward.  

 

That's the reason I posted what I did, and the topic still makes me uncomfortable.

 

ETA:  Oh, and yes...the hot sauce thread.  Still fresh in my mind.  

[Barb_]

I like the idea of never having to punish and seeing discipline as teaching proper behavior, but I can't help but wonder how that works in reality. I agree with Geo that some of you must have very easy kids!

 

I know a woman who thought she was a great parent for the first 6 kids…then number 7 proved her wrong. I guess she decided that she had just been lucky because what worked with 1-6 didn't work with 7. She decided no more kids after that! I'm glad she told me this because it comforts DH and I. Our oldest is extremely difficult and seems immune to every sort of discipline. (I am planning to get some sort of evaluation for him once I decide what type would be the most helpful.) Our second child is very easy in comparison and people love to have him around. When I find myself wondering if I am a terrible parent, I remind myself that their natures are very different and have been since before birth.

 

I've had a similar experience. My first five, while not a walk in the park exactly, responded reasonably well to positive discipline and open communication. They are happy, well adjusted, responsible, teens and adults with whom I have a close relationship.  I've never had to punish or restrict any of them past the age of maybe 8 or 9, and before that age...rarely.  Maybe because they were all girls?  Maybe because the first two set an example and the others were closer in age and fell in line? I'm not sure.  My son came along and since then, everything is different.  When he was a toddler, I had to turn the doorknob around and lock him in his room at night for his own safely because he would wake up before anyone else in the house and climb up, unbolt the top locks, and go for walks by himself in the neighborhood.  He would touch something I said was hot, cry, and then immediately touch it again to see if it was still hot.  He took apart furniture and electronics.  He downloaded ringtones and games on my phone before he could talk.  He's driven by a motor and isn't motivated by empathy or logic. He still constantly pushes his boundaries.  If I allow him to go around two blocks on his bike, he disappears 4 blocks over.  If I allow him to play at the park with a friend on the next block, he'll disappear into some new kid's house without permission and look shocked that I'm upset when I can't locate him.  Restriction is the only thing that works with him.  When his world is smaller, he seems to feel safer.  The more I try to trust him, the more trouble he finds for himself,.  

 

Unfortunately, his younger sister looks up to him instead of her better-adjusted older sisters, so now I have a little clone of her brother.  They wear me out.  

[LucyStoner]

I am in the discipline not punishment crowd and I do not have easy kids. My older son has autism. It took me some time to figure out but any hint of authoritarian parenting or trying to "make" him do anything just made matters far worse. He is much better behaved with a gentle parenting model. But no, no one can tell me that a child who has at times tantrumed so violently that once scooping him up and hauling ourselves to the emergency room of a children's hospital with a psych ward was the best thing we could do at the time is "easy" and not be told they are full of it, LOL. That was years ago. The precipitating event was not being able to read in the car because it was dark and I needed the lights off to park. We've come a long way from that, it was pre diagnosis. But no, "easy" is not a word I can apply to him and yet gentle parenting still works.

[Aelwydd]

Made me laugh too.

 

Either her kids are amazing... or the ones that run all over without consequences, lol.

 

Hopefully the first. I often see the latter.

Or, perhaps she has managed to connect with her kids in ways that permit her to influence their behavior positively. Without resorting or depending upon threats and coercion.

 

I don't say that without regret on my part. At one time, I parented with the premise that ds owed me respect and obedience. Now, I work to earn and retain his respect, and I acknowledge I can only ultimately influence ds' character, not shape or mold him. I cannot and should not hope to control his choices via threats and punishment. That was a difficult lesson for me, as I was raised in an authoritative, punitive model when I was a child.

[Aelwydd]

I've had a similar experience. My first five, while not a walk in the park exactly, responded reasonably well to positive discipline and open communication. They are happy, well adjusted, responsible, teens and adults with whom I have a close relationship. I've never had to punish or restrict any of them past the age of maybe 8 or 9, and before that age...rarely. Maybe because they were all girls? Maybe because the first two set an example and the others were closer in age and fell in line? I'm not sure. My son came along and since then, everything is different. When he was a toddler, I had to turn the doorknob around and lock him in his room at night for his own safely because he would wake up before anyone else in the house and climb up, unbolt the top locks, and go for walks by himself in the neighborhood. He would touch something I said was hot, cry, and then immediately touch it again to see if it was still hot. He took apart furniture and electronics. He downloaded ringtones and games on my phone before he could talk. He's driven by a motor and isn't motivated by empathy or logic. He still constantly pushes his boundaries. If I allow him to go around two blocks on his bike, he disappears 4 blocks over. If I allow him to play at the park with a friend on the next block, he'll disappear into some new kid's house without permission and look shocked that I'm upset when I can't locate him. Restriction is the only thing that works with him. When his world is smaller, he seems to feel safer. The more I try to trust him, the more trouble he finds for himself,.

 

Unfortunately, his younger sister looks up to him instead of her better-adjusted older sisters, so now I have a little clone of her brother. They wear me out.

Maybe I'm naive. I don't see your approach to discipline as punishment. More, as if you are hugging your ds more tightly to keep him from flying apart. Your are bolstering the self-control he still lacks.

 

He needs restrictions to feel secure. You are providing what he needs. That is not punitive IMO. It's not retribution for being who he is. Easy or difficult, I don't agree with punishing a child as such.

 

It's hard for me to explain the difference between punishment and discipline but I think ultimately for me, it's a question of intent and respect for the child.

[HRAAB]

My children are in two groups age wise:  two older and three younger, six years apart.

 

They are not amazing, perfect angels, or somehow extremely unusual.  They all have different temperaments and personalities.  They are neurotypical so I don't have the challenges that other parents do.  But...they are totally human.

 

With my older two, I was very much of the mindset, and surrounded by people that encouraged that mindset, that children needed to be punished so they could grow into likable, responsible adults.  The more I punished, the worse their behavior became, and consequently, punishments increased.  Something wasn't working.  Dh and I stepped back and took a good look at the way we were parenting.  We started parenting in a way that felt natural to us; being punitive was never natural and never felt right to us.  Slowly, our older two began behaving better.

 

I honestly cannot remember a time I've ever punished my younger three (or my older two after we changed parenting tactics).  They mess up occasionally, get cranky, or are just difficult.  My children really aren't rude, to me, their dad, or anyone else.  Sometimes they've gotten a little snippy.  I tell them that is not the way to talk to someone else, and they stop and apologize.  When I stop and consider the situation, I realize when they get snippy, they are usually under stress, frustrated or something else is going on.  I get snippy and short when I'm stressed.  Trust me, punishing me wouldn't help.  I apologize to them when I've been cranky.

 

As far as flat out misbehaving or totally going against our principles, I can't think of a time that has happened.  One thing I've notice is we don't have as many rules as other families.  That isn't to say we don't have expectations but not a lot of rules.  My girls are free to ask me why when I say 'no' to something.  Normally, I don't change my answer since I try to think things through, but they have occasionally shown me I was having a knee jerk reaction, and I've changed my answer.  There just aren't a lot of areas for them to misbehave.  And that does not mean my children run wild, are disrespectful, or are basically little monsters.  They aren't.  They're actually quite pleasant, nice people to be around.  I've tried to avoid setting up a situation where I'm their adversary; I really want them to know I'm on their side.

 

Also, I'm not some wishy-washy, lazy, sitting on my butt type parent that lets their kids run roughshod over them. We have high expectations for their behavior, and they meet our expectations. All our girls treat both their father and me with respect, and we treat them with respect.  We accomplished it without punishments; guidance, understanding, respect have worked well for us. 

 

When I say we (dh and I) don't punish, I mean we do not punish.  I'm not exaggerating to make a statement.  Punishment does not have a place in our parenting.

[staceyobu]

I'm always curious about the no punishment crowd. I consider myself fairly relaxed but there are situations that get me.

 

Big sibling hit younger sibling with a large stick outside for repeatedly annoying him. Do you just let that slide?

 

One child would have opted out of math and another out of learning to write. I typically allow no electronics until schoolwork is complete to motivate everyone along. Is that considered punishment? (You are losing a privilege for not doing school?) Or reward? (You gain a privilege for doing your work?)

[Barb_]

Maybe I'm naive. I don't see your approach to discipline as punishment. More, as if you are hugging your ds more tightly to keep him from flying res. Your are bolstering the self-control he still lacks.

 

He needs restrictions to feel secure. You are providing what he needs. That is not punitive IMO. It's not retribution for being who he is. Easy or difficult, I don't agree with punishing a child as such.

 

It's hard for me to explain the difference between punishment and discipline but I think ultimately for me, it's a question of intent and respect for the child.

 

What matters is, *he* sees it as punishment.  I give him a boundary, he breaks the boundary, I restrict him further.  I agree that I'm giving him exactly what he needs, but from the outside (and to him it feels) like a punishment. Today we went to the library.  He asks me if he can inspect the vending machines.  I say no, leave them alone.  30 seconds later he asks to look at the vending machines.  I tell him no, we've already had this conversation and that he needs to stay away from the vending machines.  A few minutes later, he asks to go "look around" and distracted while looking up something for his sister I say yes as long as he stays close enough to see me.  When I've finished, I look up and right there in front of me, he has his arm up the vending machine looking for the world like he's trying to turn a stuck baby.  This sort of thing isn't an irregular occurrence, but since outright disobedience isn't something I've ever had to deal with before he manages to catch me off guard multiple times a day. 

 

Since the vending machines were so much of a temptation that he abused my trust to get to them we had to leave.  I suppose the difference is, restriction after the fact seems like punishment or retribution while proactive restriction could be seen as protective.  Then again, proactive restriction could be seen as lack of trust while restriction after the fact is simply the consequences of a child's poor choices. Semantics, really.  My parenting style is to trust and then restrict once the trust is breached.  Maybe that's my problem with this kid, but old habits die hard especially after 100 cumulative years of parenting experience, LOL.  

 

Some kids are really just tougher.

[Serenade]

Our oldest is extremely difficult and seems immune to every sort of discipline. (I am planning to get some sort of evaluation for him once I decide what type would be the most helpful.) Our second child is very easy in comparison and people love to have him around. When I find myself wondering if I am a terrible parent, I remind myself that their natures are very different and have been since before birth.

 

I am in a similar situation.  My older son is a difficult child, but my younger son is a dream.  Same parenting, same rules, but different children with different personalities.   My younger son has rarely been punished.  Even as a very young child, he would say, "Do better next time mommy, do better next time," and he would.   Time-outs actually worked for him. If he were my only child, I would think I was a fantastic parent, LOL.  No yelling, no punishment, and reasoned discussion on the rare times it's been needed.  My older son?  Hah!  That's a different story.  He is one who has always been difficult to punish, discipline, or whatever you want to call it.   He's in 8th grade, and performing at grade level, but if electronics and privileges weren't withheld, he would probably be years behind.  If he had no consequences, he would do nothing, and I would probably be in trouble for educational neglect.  He's bright, BTW, per some testing done years ago, but just lazy and obstinate at times.  I really wish my younger son were the older one -- it is hard when the younger son is the more mature, responsible child.  It's not the way it's supposed to be. 

[Serenade]

 

Some kids are really just tougher.

 

Yes.

[Barb_]

I've been thinking about this a little more and I think some kids need to continually push against boundaries to feel safe. They need to be convinced they are still there, again and again and yet again. Reinforcing boundaries with restriction, even after the fact, will ultimately help this type of child to feel safer. He loses his bicycle because he leaves the area, he loses his friend time because he heads to an unknown kid's house to play, he loses his DS because he sneaks around to play it, he loses the iPad because he buys games without permission. Sounds like punishment, but this child will not respect a lesser reaction. I'm (usually) calm and rational and remain in control, but this is the only thing that eventually works. Yes, we also talk about respect and safety and trust and we tie responsibility to privilege, but he just isn't all that motivated by talking. He needs to understand I take his behavior seriously.

 

Outside of this, we have a good relationship. He is considerate, well mannered, and generally a kind little boy. I enjoy his company. But when he wants a thing or is off in his own head playing, he just seems to cheerfully believe that his boundaries are optional. And that leaves me spinning my wheels.

[mommymilkies]

I agree-some kids really just are tougher.  Whether it's family dynamics, environment, genetics, disposition, whatever.  I had the hardest time with my son.  I felt like a failure for years.  But he's a good kid now and I still don't punish him.  Teach, discipline, guide, allocate natural consequences, yes.  Punish, not that I can think of, though I'm sure in the heat of the moment I have done so without stopping to think.  It's certainly not something I sit around making lists about to see what I can legally get away with.  That would be deplorable. 

I'm always curious about the no punishment crowd. I consider myself fairly relaxed but there are situations that get me.

Big sibling hit younger sibling with a large stick outside for repeatedly annoying him. Do you just let that slide?

One child would have opted out of math and another out of learning to write. I typically allow no electronics until schoolwork is complete to motivate everyone along. Is that considered punishment? (You are losing a privilege for not doing school?) Or reward? (You gain a privilege for doing your work?)

To discipline is to teach.  I'm not talking about permissive folks.  I see the parents who go back and forth between permissiveness and authoritarian as ending up with the biggest issue.  The ones who claim to have kids "under control" and talk big, but when it comes down to it back down or punish severely instead of teaching.  There's a spectrum and I think most of us will agree that somewhere in the middle is good. :)

 

My kids have only hurt each other a few times.  Rather amazing for having 5 kids, I know.  Most of those were from *one kid*, and all but one of those times was a younger kid hurting an older kid. I do not allow it.  Never.  Usually, I will console the hurt child, guide the accused in making amends, take away the weapon (if there was one-it's a safety issue), or if necessary for safety, isolate the children from each other until they can work it out.  

 

They also don't get out of chores or schoolwork.  I'm the mean mom who does schoolwork on birthdays sometimes. :D I also have no Minecraft/Nintendo until after quiet time.  That's not punishment.  That's routine with reason.  I don't hover over them and tell them it's a punishment.  They know my reasoning and don't huff about it.  I think you are confusing boundaries and rules with punishment. 

[Serenade]

I've been thinking about this a little more and I think some kids need to continually push against boundaries to feel safe. They need to be convinced they are still there, again and again and yet again. Reinforcing boundaries with restriction, even after the fact, will ultimately help this type of child to feel safer. He loses his bicycle because he leaves the area, he loses his friend time because he heads to an unknown kid's house to play, he loses his DS because he sneaks around to play it, he loses the iPad because he buys games without permission. Sounds like punishment, but this child will not respect a lesser reaction. I'm (usually) calm and rational and remain in control, but this is the only thing that eventually works. Yes, we also talk about respect and safety and trust and we tie responsibility to privilege, but he just isn't all that motivated by talking. He needs to understand I take his behavior seriously.

 

I think there is a lot of truth in this, and I wish I had realized it earlier in my son's life.  I think as a parent, perhaps I gave him too much grace earlier on. Some kids really need to feel those tight boundaries, and when you make exceptions, it messes up the order of their world, and then they have to try and try and try again to see if they can get that same exception.  If I once let my older son have a special privilege, he'll ask again and again for that same privilege, because I let him do it once. He doesn't seem to get that it was an exception -- you know, something that might happen once in a while, but not all the time.   I have just learned in the past couple of months, that I can't make exceptions for him ever, or he'll be arguing and pushing for those same exceptions again and again and again.  Obviously, we can't live life without ever making exceptions, but I know when I do, I'll have to live with the consequences of them for a long, long time.

[HRAAB]

I'm always curious about the no punishment crowd. I consider myself fairly relaxed but there are situations that get me.

 

Big sibling hit younger sibling with a large stick outside for repeatedly annoying him. Do you just let that slide?

 

One child would have opted out of math and another out of learning to write. I typically allow no electronics until schoolwork is complete to motivate everyone along. Is that considered punishment? (You are losing a privilege for not doing school?) Or reward? (You gain a privilege for doing your work?)

 

My girls never hit with a stick, but I remember them kicking and hitting each other when they were really irritated.  I would remove the stick and separate the kids. I would never allow hitting to slide.  Like you said, it usually occurred when one had reached their limit with the other.  Little siblings can be annoying.  I remember taking the younger away from the their sister and getting them involved with something else.  I also tried to make time to take the older sister out - maybe a walk just for the two of us - or something like that.

 

My girls have to do their schoolwork.  They know they have to do it.  I guess what you're asking is what to do if they refuse.  School is what we do, all their friends attend school or are homeschooled.  Mine never flat out refused to do work, but they have goofed off, chosen to play or something else instead of doing their work.  I would either have them sit with me in the evening and do their work or else I would make a point of sitting with them off and on during the day to make sure they're working.  I've had a couple who hate math.  When they're younger, I sit with them while they do their math lesson.  If I'm feeling particularly inclined to do so, I'll make a cup of hot chocolate or tea and try to make it pleasant.  I've never done rewards for school work.  I don't see not allowing electronics during school as a punishment.  If they went to school, they wouldn't be allowed to play with electronics during class time - that's not a punishment.  Basically, if they weren't doing their work, I would make sure they were within my sight so I could keep them on task.  Math might take 45 min or it might take an hour, but I'll stay with them until they finish.  I figure in a classroom the teacher would be keeping a eye on her students and giving them a nudge if they were off track.  Again, I don't see that as a punishment.  My youngest are 7th grade now.  Sometimes they work faster, sometimes they dawdle, but they get it done...eventually.

[mommymilkies]

I want to add that I don't think any of us who actively try to discipline instead of punish think that we are perfect.  You can see that two years ago, I posted a rather desperate thread about my kids refusing to do anything I asked.  I'm glad I stayed my course (with some tips from that thread!), because our relationship has improved so much and with the changing of some habits and curricula, we don't deal with that anymore.  And for one kid, it ended up partly being a developmental disorder and language processing issue that we are getting professional help on. 

[mommymilkies]

 

 

I found a lot of what I learned about habit training through CM can be just as effective in getting work done as providing rewards/privileges etc.

Yes!  Laying Down the Rails by SCM is a great resource for those looking at ways to teach instead of heading straight to punishment. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Those of you who don't punish, what do you do when your child outright refuses to do school work? What if you ask him to do one job and he goes nuts, yelling and calling you an idiot and looking like he's about to attack you? What of he explodes about something minor and you bring him to his room to calm down, and he stands there kicking the door and yelling that he hates you? I like the idea of gentle discipline, but I don't see how it can work with an explosive kid who is short on empathy and rarely apologizes unless prompted. Talking and guiding doesn't seem to make much difference. If anyone can share how they successfully dealt with a child like this, I'd like to read it.

 

I'll give an example from breakfast today. The boys have to clean up the playroom before breakfast. We finished and went downstairs. Little Guy and I were eating and Tigger came down. He had food at the table that he liked, but apparently he thought it was for me. He never asked where his food was, he just went straight to yelling about how hungry he was. He then took a stuffed animal and hit his brother in the head with it several times. When he's like this, usually little we say gets through. Finally, after several minutes of fit throwing and me trying to point out he had food, he calmed down enough to sit down and eat. How would a gentle discipline parent deal with this kind of irrational behavior?

 

Thankfully, my second actually notices how people feel and is generally cheerful. Gentle discipline methods would probably be sufficient for him. I can't tell if he is an easy kid, or just average and appears easy in comparison.

[mommymilkies]

Those of you who don't punish, what do you do when your child outright refuses to do school work? What if you ask him to do one job and he goes nuts, yelling and calling you an idiot and looking like he's about to attack you? What of he explodes about something minor and you bring him to his room to calm down, and he stands there kicking the door and yelling that he hates you? I like the idea of gentle discipline, but I don't see how it can work with an explosive kid who is short on empathy and rarely apologizes unless prompted. Talking and guiding doesn't seem to make much difference. If anyone can share how they successfully dealt with a child like this, I'd like to read it.

 

I'll give an example from breakfast today. The boys have to clean up the playroom before breakfast. We finished and went downstairs. Little Guy and I were eating and Tigger came down. He had food at the table that he liked, but apparently he thought it was for me. He never asked where his food was, he just went straight to yelling about how hungry he was. He then took a stuffed animal and hit his brother in the head with it several times. When he's like this, usually little we say gets through. Finally, after several minutes of fit throwing and me trying to point out he had food, he calmed down enough to sit down and eat. How would a gentle discipline parent deal with this kind of irrational behavior?

 

Thankfully, my second actually notices how people feel and is generally cheerful. Gentle discipline methods would probably be sufficient for him. I can't tell if he is an easy kid, or just average and appears easy in comparison.

I could have written that post a couple years ago.  I was in the pits of PPD, our relationships were all a wreck.  My son was exactly like that, and my 3rd child, too.  There were underlying issues-relationship issues, sensory processing issues, language processing issues, and needing more boundaries.  Not punishing does not equal no boundaries or discipline.  It means trying to teach your kids and not using arbitrary punishments that only damage your relationship.  

 

I don't want to overstep my bounds, as I know nothing about your family.  But at a glance, I would say that you need some serious relationship rescue.  I would have your son evaluated by a doctor, therapist (OT, in particular), and work on that.  For my son, it took some OT, lots of bonding time, changing up our routine and making it set in stone.  My son can't even handle the pencils being moved in the room.  I have to take his need for order seriously. I can't really blame him, I'm like that, too.  On days when our routine is off, sometimes the day goes to crap.  But that's part of life.  You just work with it.  Apologize when you freak out, model behavior you'd like to see, work on your relationship or any issues with either of you.  But using arbitrary punishments like cleaning the litter boxes for a week when they don't do math is stupid.  That just makes them angry.  It doesn't make them want to do math.  It makes them angry and it makes them feel righteously indignant.  Can you remember being a child?  Taking responsibility for your actions and having consequences could be embarrassing or difficult, but you learned from it.  Being smacked with a ruler when you spoke up in class only taught you fear and anger, right? (Assuming here, insert other situation as necessary)

 

ETA: Sadie posted after me when I was going to edit.  She made a good point-is the child hungry?  Low blood sugar? Tired? Overworked?  Not enough physical play? Jessie Wise talked in a speech about what to do when there's a meltdown: "Have a sandwich, have a nap, have a shower."  Hit the bases and go from there. 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/95327-swb-you-are-so-helpful/

[PeacefulChaos]

Or, perhaps she has managed to connect with her kids in ways that permit her to influence their behavior positively. Without resorting or depending upon threats and coercion.

 

 

Why does it have to be this?  Like seriously.  I read this and was like :001_huh: because punishment doesn't equal that.  Do some people cross the line?  Sure.  Tons of people cross various lines for various things.  

But I can't equate punishment with 'depending on threats and coercion'.  Seriously.  

Day cares all over the world would be in court all the time for having time out.  Time out is punishment.  

 

Between that and people immediately associating 'religion' with people abusing their kids, I really find myself wondering why I bothered jumping into the mix on this thread.  Sigh.  How overdramatic of me to think that, I know.   :p

 

But let me remind you (general) that most Christians do NOT, in fact, abuse their kids.  

and most punishment is NOT, in fact, coercion or threatening.

 

Big sibling hit younger sibling with a large stick outside for repeatedly annoying him. Do you just let that slide?

 

One child would have opted out of math and another out of learning to write. I typically allow no electronics until schoolwork is complete to motivate everyone along. Is that considered punishment? (You are losing a privilege for not doing school?) Or reward? (You gain a privilege for doing your work?)

I wonder this sort of thing, too.  

It's hard being my kids, I guess.  If the above stick incident were to happen, the one who did the hitting would spend the rest of the day indoors, where they can play in their room or read (or whatever strikes their fancy I guess).   The annoying one wouldn't get a free pass, either, but kids know better than to take matters into their own hands and use physical force against someone else. 

(on the second part, I'm even WORSE lol - we don't allow electronics, usually, until after DINNER!!!!  The horrors!)   :D

 

What matters is, *he* sees it as punishment.  I give him a boundary, he breaks the boundary, I restrict him further.  I agree that I'm giving him exactly what he needs, but from the outside (and to him it feels) like a punishment. Today we went to the library.  He asks me if he can inspect the vending machines.  I say no, leave them alone.  30 seconds later he asks to look at the vending machines.  I tell him no, we've already had this conversation and that he needs to stay away from the vending machines.  A few minutes later, he asks to go "look around" and distracted while looking up something for his sister I say yes as long as he stays close enough to see me.  When I've finished, I look up and right there in front of me, he has his arm up the vending machine looking for the world like he's trying to turn a stuck baby.  This sort of thing isn't an irregular occurrence, but since outright disobedience isn't something I've ever had to deal with before he manages to catch me off guard multiple times a day. 

 

Since the vending machines were so much of a temptation that he abused my trust to get to them we had to leave.  I suppose the difference is, restriction after the fact seems like punishment or retribution while proactive restriction could be seen as protective.  Then again, proactive restriction could be seen as lack of trust while restriction after the fact is simply the consequences of a child's poor choices. Semantics, really.  My parenting style is to trust and then restrict once the trust is breached.  Maybe that's my problem with this kid, but old habits die hard especially after 100 cumulative years of parenting experience, LOL.  

 

Some kids are really just tougher.

 

Love the bolded.  That's what I do as well.

 

 

I also want to point out that just because some of us have had to discipline/punish/whatever our children by taking away their video games for a few days or whatever, that doesn't mean that we have 'bad' or 'difficult' kids.  It doesn't mean our kids aren't also a joy, or that the VAST majority of the time these things never come up.  Just wanted to send out that little reminder.  Kids who need discipline and boundaries are NOT BAD KIDS.  They aren't making their parents' lives miserable.  

 

 

eta: contrary to how it may sound, I'm actually a fairly free-range mom.  Our 'rules' can be summed up in one - treat others the way you want to be treated.  That's really all I've ever found that needs a lot of whatever you want to call it with NOT EVEN ALL of my kids - be kind and respectful (usually to the siblings or me - my kids have always been excellent to everyone else. :) )

[mommymilkies]

 

I also want to point out that just because some of us have had to discipline/punish/whatever our children by taking away their video games for a few days or whatever, that doesn't mean that we have 'bad' or 'difficult' kids.  It doesn't mean our kids aren't also a joy, or that the VAST majority of the time these things never come up.  Just wanted to send out that little reminder.  Kids who need discipline and boundaries are NOT BAD KIDS.  They aren't making their parents' lives miserable.  

 

 

eta: contrary to how it may sound, I'm actually a fairly free-range mom.  Our 'rules' can be summed up in one - treat others the way you want to be treated.  That's really all I've ever found that needs a lot of whatever you want to call it with NOT EVEN ALL of my kids - be kind and respectful (usually to the siblings or me - my kids have always been excellent to everyone else. :) )

I could be wrong, but I can't imagine anyone arguing with that!  Of course they aren't trying to make their parents' lives miserable.  They're being kids.  That's where the discipline (to teach) and boundaries come into play. :)  Nobody is suggesting there should be no discipline or boundaries.  Not on here, so far, at least. 

[mytwomonkeys]

Those of you who don't punish, what do you do when your child outright refuses to do school work? What if you ask him to do one job and he goes nuts, yelling and calling you an idiot and looking like he's about to attack you? What of he explodes about something minor and you bring him to his room to calm down, and he stands there kicking the door and yelling that he hates you? I like the idea of gentle discipline, but I don't see how it can work with an explosive kid who is short on empathy and rarely apologizes unless prompted. Talking and guiding doesn't seem to make much difference. If anyone can share how they successfully dealt with a child like this, I'd like to read it.

 

I'll give an example from breakfast today. The boys have to clean up the playroom before breakfast. We finished and went downstairs. Little Guy and I were eating and Tigger came down. He had food at the table that he liked, but apparently he thought it was for me. He never asked where his food was, he just went straight to yelling about how hungry he was. He then took a stuffed animal and hit his brother in the head with it several times. When he's like this, usually little we say gets through. Finally, after several minutes of fit throwing and me trying to point out he had food, he calmed down enough to sit down and eat. How would a gentle discipline parent deal with this kind of irrational behavior?

 

Thankfully, my second actually notices how people feel and is generally cheerful. Gentle discipline methods would probably be sufficient for him. I can't tell if he is an easy kid, or just average and appears easy in comparison.

Well, I consider my husband and I on the gentle discipline spectrum. We don't hit our children or shame our children. Having said that, my son can be difficult and quite explosive (although he is like a different child the older he gets - doing so much better!)

 

I just wanted to mention a couple of things that help so much with my son's personality. He does best with a high protein breakfast when he first wakes up. He does best with a schedule (it's written on our blackboard). He does best when I'm able to give him countdowns to an upcoming change (telling him school is going to start, tv off, time to shower -- whatever - he does best with a heads up. Transition is hard for him otherwise). Hunger and being tired were triggers for him, especially when he was younger. I just thought some of your examples sounded like stuff I've been through with my son before -- maybe sharing what has helped him would help someone else

 

I really won't go into how I would discipline in the situations you mentioned. I guess some would see removal of electronics (my son's love) as a punishment. I see it as his choice though. Anyway. I wouldn't be very helpful in answering :)

[PeacefulChaos]

Yeah, you really are not reading all the many qualifiers we non-punishing parents have been careful to add in our posts. 

 

Sometimes threads hit a nerve for us all at various times. 

I guess that's what I'm feeling only in the opposite direction.   :o

eta to clarify the above: I feel like those of us who choose to discipline our children by the removal of privileges, etc, are being grouped with child abusers because we are ok with punishment.   And like a lot of what I and others have said has been cast aside because somehow other children are just nicer than ours, etc.  (I don't mean that to sound as biting as it is coming across - it's really just the only way I can think of to form my thoughts at the moment.  I post during commercial breaks lol)

For some reason, reading how so many other parents 'don't need to do xyz because their child is such a joy' repeatedly began to make it feel as though other children who do need xyz are not.  

And having punishment equated to threats and coercion really struck a nerve with me.  As did the one re: Christians.  I'm sure most if not all people do realize that those two things are just broad generalizations based on a very small, very extreme part.  

[Barb_]

It's up to each family to work out what works for them (within reason) regarding their child and how they choose to teach them.

 

I'm with Ishki. Our rules are few ( mostly, they are rules around safety) and the kids just don't really do stuff like you mention above. I don't know why they don't. They just don't.

 

And I don't know why some of mine do and others don't.  I suspect most of us on this thread have pretty similar parenting styles but have children of varying temperaments.  I also suspect there are a wide variety of terms being used to describe very similar if not identical techniques.