Help me get a grip (son quitting BSA)

[Catwoman]

I am sorry, but I have never seen Eagle Scout taken seriously in the corporate world for someone past an entry level position (and even that gets side eyed.)

That's interesting. Your opinion seems to differ from what umsami posted, and it sounds like she has personal experience with this. Perhaps it's a regional thing?

 

Do you work in human resources?

[NASDAQ]

In Canada, there are no Eagle Scouts. And we survive :)

 

You can't do every worthwhile thing. It's easy for people to regret not doing something in a vague, wistful way, but if they had the decision to make over again they might well choose the same way.

[momma2three]

I guess I'm surprised that so many people put high school accomplishments on resumes.  I always thought that was a big no-no.

 

Honestly, BSA is increasingly being seen as a political organization... in a few years, when the current crop of Eagle Scouts are applying for jobs, I probably would not encourage them to put it on a resume, unless they're reasonably certain that the company hiring has a politically conservative culture.  Which, in some areas, is probably pretty much everywhere, but in other industries and regions, I would be wary of going out of my way to mention such active participation in an organization that many people see as being discriminatory.

 

I think how BSA is seen is very regional.  I'm not sure any of the "very successful" men I know were Eagle Scouts.  And the only person I know of who was an Eagle Scout isn't particularly.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That's interesting. Your opinion seems to differ from what umsami posted, and it sounds like she has personal experience with this. Perhaps it's a regional thing?

 

Do you work in human resources?

 

I have been involved in a large number of hiring decisions with different organizations and have never found it to be a factor in the hiring process, and in general it is seen as poor form to put a high school accomplishment on a professional resume'.  I can see how someone who is an Eagle Scout would be willing to give the achievement some weight in the decision making process, but that is offset by those who have issues with BSA or who believe that anyone who has to try to differentiate themselves based on something they achieved in their teens is someone who has not accomplished much in their professional career.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I guess I'm surprised that so many people put high school accomplishments on resumes.  I always thought that was a big no-no.

 

Honestly, BSA is increasingly being seen as a political organization... in a few years, when the current crop of Eagle Scouts are applying for jobs, I probably would not encourage them to put it on a resume, unless they're reasonably certain that the company hiring has a politically conservative culture.  Which, in some areas, is probably pretty much everywhere, but in other industries and regions, I would be wary of going out of my way to mention such active participation in an organization that many people see as being discriminatory.

 

I think how BSA is seen is very regional.  I'm not sure any of the "very successful" men I know were Eagle Scouts.  And the only person I know of who was an Eagle Scout isn't particularly.

 

I grew up in an area with a heavy BSA influence (at least at that time), but none of the Eagles Scouts in my age range were particularly noteworthy in any way or have gone on to accomplishment much in their adult lives.

I am sure I know some successful men who were Eagle Scouts, but none of them are the type to bring up their high school achievements in a professional setting.

[Catwoman]

I have been involved in a large number of hiring decisions with different organizations and have never found it to be a factor in the hiring process, and in general it is seen as poor form to put a high school accomplishment on a professional resume'. I can see how someone who is an Eagle Scout would be willing to give the achievement some weight in the decision making process, but that is offset by those who have issues with BSA or who believe that anyone who has to try to differentiate themselves based on something they achieved in their teens is someone who has not accomplished much in their professional career.

 

Thanks. :)

 

I have no personal experience at all with Scouting, so I have never thought about any of this stuff. I figured that being an Eagle Scout might look good on a college application, but I had no idea that it might influence future employers (one way or the other!)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It definitely is something that is an asset on a college application, along with many other achievements (captain of a sports team, National Merit Finalist, and so on.)

[Catwoman]

I'm so curious. In industries where being an Eagle Scout counts, are women job applicants disadvantaged ? Is there a similar prestige attached to whatever the GG 'top' award is ?

I have no idea, but I'm sure someone else will.

 

Personally, I have never known any girls who remained in Girl Scouts after elementary school, but I think it must be a regional thing or something. My own secret suspicion is that more girls would remain in the organization if the uniforms were more attractive, but that's probably just me being shallow. ;)

[DawnM]

Yes, the top award for Girl Scouts is the Gold Award.

 

My neighbor's daughter got it and we went to see her project.  It was very well done.

 

Dawn

 

 

I'm so curious. In industries where being an Eagle Scout counts, are women job applicants disadvantaged ? Is there a similar prestige attached to whatever the GG 'top' award is ?

 

[teachermom2834]

My husband works in choosing grad and post doc students in the sciences into special programs, honors, etc.  In this setting, Eagle Scout on the resume induces an eye roll.  They don't want to see the high school accomplishment on the professional resume.  My husband, who made Eagle, thinks listing it should end with the college applications or perhaps honors while student is still in college.  He and his colleagues do not look favorably on it for grad students and beyond. 

 

 

[momma2three]

I have no idea, but I'm sure someone else will.

 

Personally, I have never known any girls who remained in Girl Scouts after elementary school, but I think it must be a regional thing or something. My own secret suspicion is that more girls would remain in the organization if the uniforms were more attractive, but that's probably just me being shallow. ;)

 

I went to the achievement ceremony for my town's Girl Scouts last year, and was surprised that 9 girls were being awarded their Gold Awards.  And all for REALLY impressive projects.  I was really impressed.

 

I bet lots more women have won it than really talk about it.  I think it's one of those things that people don't mention unless it comes up.  And I feel that way about Eagle Scouts, too.  I assume that I probably know more than a couple Eagle Scouts, but it's just odd to me that people would spend their lives bragging about high school accomplishments.  I'm truly surprised that people consider it professional resume fodder.  I've always heard that including high school awards on a resume past your very first post-college job (and even then it's iffy) is seen as laughable.  I asked DH about it this morning (he's been involved in hiring for companies both large and small) and he said he would think that it was really weird if someone put down that they were an Eagle Scout, unless they were trying to show that they'd peaked in high school and hadn't done anything since.

 

I suppose these things are probably regional and maybe industry-specific, but I really wouldn't put any emphasis on being an Eagle Scout for future hiring purposes.  Especially as BSA continues to be considered a problematic organization for many individuals.

[CaffeineDiary]

I absolutely agree.  High school accomplishments on a (post-college) resume (beyond maybe "Valedictorian" or "Opened a medical clinic in a poverty-stricken area on my own initiative") basically say one thing: "I ran out of things to say about what I've been doing lately, and put this down instead."

[umsami]

I absolutely agree.  High school accomplishments on a (post-college) resume (beyond maybe "Valedictorian" or "Opened a medical clinic in a poverty-stricken area on my own initiative") basically say one thing: "I ran out of things to say about what I've been doing lately, and put this down instead."

 

Perhaps it was known that this company valued it, I have no idea.  But quite frankly, saying you were an Eagle Scout which is nationally known and has national requirements would hold more weight than saying I was Valedictorian at school nobody's ever heard of.  Also, if it shows a pattern of leadership, so I was an Eagle Scout, then I was president of my frat or this school club, then I did this.  Usually, you'd find it an awards or extra type area (languages, what not).  It was not the focus of the CV, but it was there.  

 

Similarly, if people attended Phillips Exteter, Groton, Choate, or a similarly well known college prep school, that would show up on a resume whereas a non well known school (boarding or regular) would not make it to the resume. This can also apply regionally to well known college prep schools. Once again, it's a networking thing, it's a nationally-known thing that held weight.  For the typical applicant, of course one would ignore one's high school and put university level experience on up.  

 

I'll also say that we recruited mainly East coast, so it's not like it was a big LDS area that might index high for Eagle scouts. It was rare to come across one.   Once again, it's an opening…and it's a way to bond during an interview, whether or not the interviewer was a boy scout, s/he may have kids involved in Scouting or what not.  So that starts the process….starts the humanization….makes me think, "hey, I remember John, he was the Eagle Scout".

 

As for the Girl Scout Gold Award, I never encountered one. I don't think it's as well known or well thought of as the Eagle Scout, although of course, it should be.  Better marketing by the BSA I guess. :)

[momma2three]

Hmm, I went to a well-regarded East Coast prep school, and live in the same city, I've always been told that it's tacky to include my high school on a resume.  I got around that by being involved in my alumni organization, and so that's at the bottom of my resume under "other."  I do think that including that has opened doors (actually, I know it, as people get very excited about it in interviews), but I do not think that it's standard to include even prep schools on a professional resume under education.  Once you've gone to college, nobody cares what you did in high school.

[J-rap]

We're not a Scouting family, although I know about committing to an activity for many years and really wanting your child to stick with it til the end.  It sounds like your son has given it a lot of thought and has good reasons for quitting.  However one question I would ask is, does he have anything to take its place?  Will he feel at a loss without that group or identity anymore?  The teen years are so defining;  I would not want my child to quit one activity but then really flounder after that.  If it is his ONLY activity and he has had a lot of satisfaction/enjoyment from it, I might help him find a way to stick with it.  If he has other interests and/or has the confidence to pursue something else, I'd let it go.

 

However, in the end I think I would respect his decision to quit... maybe there are more things he is uncomfortable about than he is expressing.  (I don't mean anything dark -- I just mean maybe he just knows it's not for him, doesn't enjoy the other personalities involved, etc.)  Sometimes our children's decisions take them on a path that's a little different, but not bad. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

I'll only add one thing to this.  When my son was in scouts, it was constantly stressed to us that Eagle had to be the boy's accomplishment, not the parents.  The adults and the troop can support the scout, but the desire should come from the boy.  I have seen many boys make Eagle who were only doing it for because their parents made them.  It showed in the character of the boys.  My son was one of the rare ones who stuck with scouts all the way until 18 without getting Eagle, simply because he loved the outdoor activities.  He wasn't into the badges and accomplishments as he felt they were phony (not saying they were, but this kind of thing does not motivate him.)  Ds was admitted to every college he applied to and received excellent scholarships at those schools.  Not having Eagle has not held him back.

 

I say let it be your son's decision.  Unless he is showing signs of depression (one of the symptoms can be apathy and loss of interest in activities), then he should be the best equipped to decide how much he wants to put into this.   

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'll only add one thing to this.  When my son was in scouts, it was constantly stressed to us that Eagle had to be the boy's accomplishment, not the parents.  The adults and the troop can support the scout, but the desire should come from the boy.  I have seen many boys make Eagle who were only doing it for because their parents made them.  It showed in the character of the boys.  My son was one of the rare ones who stuck with scouts all the way until 18 without getting Eagle, simply because he loved the outdoor activities.  He wasn't into the badges and accomplishments as he felt they were phony (not saying they were, but this kind of thing does not motivate him.)  Ds was admitted to every college he applied to and received excellent scholarships at those schools.  Not having Eagle has not held him back.

 

I say let it be your son's decision.  Unless he is showing signs of depression (one of the symptoms can be apathy and loss of interest in activities), then he should be the best equipped to decide how much he wants to put into this.   

 

 

The bolded reflects my personal experience.  The Eagle Scouts I knew in my hometown were pushed towards that goal by their parents as it was something that was expected of all males in the family.  It makes sense that someone forced to achieve that goal is going to have a different attitude than someone who had an internal drive to reach it.

[MistyMountain]

I'm so curious. In industries where being an Eagle Scout counts, are women job applicants disadvantaged ? Is there a similar prestige attached to whatever the GG 'top' award is ?

80% of women business owners and 2/3 of women members of congress were former girls scouts. Here I have met people that went all the way through but I am not sure if finishing makes a difference. I know it does for scholarships and such.

[Catwoman]

80% of women business owners and 2/3 of women members of congress were former girls scouts. Here I have met people that went all the way through but I am not sure if finishing makes a difference. I know it does for scholarships and such.

I would like to see statistics to back that up. That 80% number seems outrageously high, even counting all of the little girls who dropped out of Scouting before they were in around third grade or so.

 

Are you talking about girls who stayed in Girl Scouts until they were in high school? Because otherwise, the statistics are totally meaningless even if they're true.

[momma2three]

I've heard that number too, and I think it's includes anyone who was ever a Girl Scout, even if they dropped out of Brownies halfway through the year.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I would like to see statistics to back that up. That 80% number seems outrageously high, even counting all of the little girls who dropped out of Scouting before they were in around third grade or so.

 

Are you talking about girls who stayed in Girl Scouts until they were in high school? Because otherwise, the statistics are totally meaningless even if they're true.

 

:iagree:

Based on total GSA participation, I declare shenanigans on that number unless they are using an overly broad definition of participation

[Catwoman]

I've heard that number too, and I think it's includes anyone who was ever a Girl Scout, even if they dropped out of Brownies halfway through the year.

Thanks -- I had a feeling that was the case.

 

I still think it's probably a crock, as there is no way that they have accurate statistics. It would be impossible to keep track of something like that. Have any of the business owners here ever been polled to see if they were ever involved with Girl Scouts? I know I haven't.

 

It sounds to me like something made up by the Girl Scouts as a marketing thing to "prove" that being a Girl Scout will lead to great success in life.

[Catwoman]

:iagree:

Based on total GSA participation, I declare shenanigans on that number unless they are using an overly broad definition of participation

I've bought a lot of Girl Scout cookies over the years, and I'm a business owner. Does that count? ;)

[Seasider]

I think the designations earned (Eagle rank, Gold Award, Stars & Stripes) are not entirely definitive. I personally believe the actual final projects accomplished in pursuit of these goals are things that may or may not have lasting value and are worth recognition even during later job application processes.

 

For instance, compare the scout who paints all the fire hydrants in his/her neighborhood with the scout who establishes a non-profit agency (which has longevity beyond the timing of the individual scout's project) for managing local feral cat populations (involving capture, spaying/neutering, finding homes and placing kittens - actually affecting the local economy). Or the scout who planted a garden on his/her church grounds versus the scout who conceived and orchestrated a plan in his/her community to bring closed captioning to local community theater performances, enriching the experience for all future hearing impaired theater goers.

 

Just saying, the focus and quality of such projects can be indicative of the motivation and capability of an individual. If I were involved in hiring someone who listed such an award on their application (for college or career), I would ask lots of questions about the actual project completed. All projects reflect a certain level of quality and commitment, but some are truly outstanding. I don't believe the recognition of truly stellar projects should be shelved simply because they were "high school" accomplishments.

[katilac]

We had a fellow here running for County Commissioner (He was Mayor at that time) and the first thing on his resume was: I am an Eagle Scout.  

 

Is your county somehow known for Boy Scouts? Because that would strike me as weird as heck. Nothing against scouts, but really, that's the mayor's spotlighted accomplishment? 

 

Listed Eagle or any other high school accomplishment on a resume for a professional job, even an entry level one, would have been frowned on everywhere I have worked (southeast US). It's too far in the past, and other accomplishments should have displaced it. If you make it to an interview, and spot Scout pictures or paraphernalia, then you can bring it up. 

 

It can certainly be helpful on college applications, like other extra-curricular accomplishments. 

 

As far as adult scouts expressing regrets for not finishing, I would take that with a grain of salt. It's one of those things adults say to kids, imo, a conversation starter and 'responsible adult' chitchat. Stay with it! Don't quit! I regret that I didn't make Eagle, stick with piano lessons, study harder in school, 'insert admirable action here.' 

[momma2three]

Thanks -- I had a feeling that was the case.

 

I still think it's probably a crock, as there is no way that they have accurate statistics. It would be impossible to keep track of something like that. Have any of the business owners here ever been polled to see if they were ever involved with Girl Scouts? I know I haven't.

 

It sounds to me like something made up by the Girl Scouts as a marketing thing to "prove" that being a Girl Scout will lead to great success in life.

 

To be fair, when they did their big realigning a few years ago the Girl Scouts did hire a big marketing company that did a lot of surveys of current and former Girl Scouts.  While I think it's a tad disingenuous to include everyone who has ever spent even a day at any level of Girl Scouts as  "Girl Scout success story!" I think that their numbers are based on some sort of fact.

[Joyofsixreboot]

In the end it'll all be ok. This is from the mom of one Eagle and one who had everything done but didn't want to do the paperwork. Breathe. There will be much bigger decisions to come.

[katilac]

I think the designations earned (Eagle rank, Gold Award, Stars & Stripes) are not entirely definitive. I personally believe the actual final projects accomplished in pursuit of these goals are things that may or may not have lasting value and are worth recognition even during later job application processes.

 

For instance, compare the scout who paints all the fire hydrants in his/her neighborhood with the scout who establishes a non-profit agency (which has longevity beyond the timing of the individual scout's project) for managing local feral cat populations (involving capture, spaying/neutering, finding homes and placing kittens - actually affecting the local economy). Or the scout who planted a garden on his/her church grounds versus the scout who conceived and orchestrated a plan in his/her community to bring closed captioning to local community theater performances, enriching the experience for all future hearing impaired theater goers.

 

Just saying, the focus and quality of such projects can be indicative of the motivation and capability of an individual. If I were involved in hiring someone who listed such an award on their application (for college or career), I would ask lots of questions about the actual project completed. All projects reflect a certain level of quality and commitment, but some are truly outstanding. I don't believe the recognition of truly stellar projects should be shelved simply because they were "high school" accomplishments.

 

If I had done an impressive project that was relevant to the position, I might list it as a project on the resume, particularly if it highlights a long-standing interest in the field.  The award designation would be secondary or possibly omitted. If you think the project is going to help you get the job, you definitely don't want to list "Eagle Scout" and hope like heck they ask about it in the interview. 

[Seasider]

If I had done an impressive project that was relevant to the position, I might list it as a project on the resume, particularly if it highlights a long-standing interest in the field. The award designation would be secondary or possibly omitted. If you think the project is going to help you get the job, you definitely don't want to list "Eagle Scout" and hope like heck they ask about it in the interview.

I agree!

[umsami]

I agree too.  But that's also why I think some thought should be done as to what one's project is… can you transfer it into a future internship, even start your own nonprofit, etc.  Don't just do it to check a box. Heck, maybe can you use it to rule out a field you're interested in, so that you can focus on something else in college.

 

It does still seem to me like quitting a job before your stock options vest, or quitting the military at 19 years before you get your pension.  I'm sorry that's not a popular opinion, but it is what it is.  Sure people can have very good reasons for doing so (and I can think of a few I would back for quitting boy scouts), but for the vast majority, I really do think it's better to stick it out and finish.

 

As for Girl Scouts, all of the GS marketing is on people who've ever been a Girl Scout.  They were even touting Shirley Temple Black as a former GS when she died.    I haven't seen figures regarding former Gold Award winners and what they've accomplished.  When I was a GS many moons ago, I don't remember it being stressed like Eagle Scout is in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, etc.  I don't even remember being encouraged to go beyond Junior GSs.  

 

I honestly think for careers in corporate America, medicine, or law, it's far more useful for women to learn golf. (Men, too, should learn to play of course).  Sexist, perhaps, but that was one of the outcomes of a women in leadership panel I was on.  You'd be surprised on what is decided in the foursome, how many events and networking opportunities revolve around golf.)   :p  (OK…waiting to be blasted for that opinion too.)

[umsami]

Found this too…. it's a discussion by former Scouts...http://edcforums.com/threads/do-you-think-being-an-eagle-scouts-is-important-later-in-life-a-poll-for-my-son.99917/

 

I'm not sure what EDCForum is…though…so take that for whatever it's worth. :)

[Audrey]

You said that there had been many discussions about leaving over a long period of time, so, to me, that sounds like a thoughtful, informed decision making process.  If he'd decided to quit on a whim, I'd be worried and for that, yes... there would probably be regrets.  However, the fact that it WAS a thoughtful, informed decision quite lessens the chances that he will regret it later, IME. 

 

I think that you just have to find a way to close that chapter of your life.  It is hard, I know.  We get very attached to the things we do and how we identify ourselves.  Sometimes, that is good.  Sometimes, it isn't.  Either way, moving on is always hard. 

 

FWIW, we are going through a similar series of discussions here about whether or not to continue in 4H.  I am pretty wrapped up in it, as you are with Scouts.  I'm trying to detach myself from my involvement and just focus on helping ds make a decision he won't regret later.  I am loathe to let him drop it, but honestly?  I'm not quite sure how much is concern for him and how much is my desire to see it through.  It is hard. 

[Audrey]

I grew up in an area with a heavy BSA influence (at least at that time), but none of the Eagles Scouts in my age range were particularly noteworthy in any way or have gone on to accomplishment much in their adult lives.

I am sure I know some successful men who were Eagle Scouts, but none of them are the type to bring up their high school achievements in a professional setting.

 

I think the bolded is quite it.  No matter what you think of the BSA as an organization, it is still a youth organization and those accomplishments aren't going to do you a lot of good to crow about as an adult -- unless you are in an area where that sort of thing IS culturally important.  Otherwise, it is akin to bragging about your high school football championship trophy when you haven't been in high school in years. 

[Audrey]

Don't you have Queen's Scout?

 

We do have Boy Scouts in Canada (actually it's just Scouts, period. -- boys and girls both welcome).  It isn't very popular, though, and there are few groups, relatively speaking. 

 

http://www.scouts.ca/

[marbel]

Thanks again.  We've talked a little more since he made the call and he continues to say he feels good about it.  We've talked about other things he can do - Venturing, Junior Firefighter training, focusing on academics to prepare for dual enrollment at our local CC in the fall, other things.   He has a weekend retreat with a terrific youth group coming up.   I am coming out of my own mommy-feelings of sadness.  Time to move on to the next thing!

[Tess in the Burbs]

I was a Girl Scout.  I got my Silver award and had only my project to go on my Gold. I turned 18 before i could finish.  And honestly, at times I wished I had finished.  But the # of days I wished that vs never thinking about it......it didn't matter in the long run.  And I can bet that the men who do finish.....how many think about it daily until they die?  Did it help for a job?  Perhaps in the right situation.  But you can't worry about the what ifs. 

 

I think it's fair to discuss why he is quitting, is he aware of the consequences and let him make the choice.  And yes, he may regret it one day.  But he has to do the work.  My son has quit a few things...yes I know he's younger.  But we told him the options and what happens when you quit.  No regrets here from my son ever about quitting anything.  He loved scouts and jumped in when he finally go into the program as a Webelo.  But suddenly he was DONE.  Out of the  blue.....and he's been ok with it.  The other day he asked me why he quit.  I told him his reasons.....and he couldn't remember ever thinking that.  LOL  

 

I suspect being a boy, being hormonal might be part of the reason your son wants to quit.  But discuss it and let him decide.  It's not you....it will be all his ownership on the choice.  And at that age, that is fair.  It's hard to change for us moms though :-)

[T'smom]

 

I honestly think for careers in corporate America, medicine, or law, it's far more useful for women to learn golf. (Men, too, should learn to play of course). Sexist, perhaps, but that was one of the outcomes of a women in leadership panel I was on. You'd be surprised on what is decided in the foursome, how many events and networking opportunities revolve around golf.) :p (OK…waiting to be blasted for that opinion too.)

I'm going to have to share this with dh! He is on a quest to find golf clubs for our left-handed three year old dd! I am of the opinion that no 3 yo needs real golf clubs, but he wants to take her with him when he takes the 6 yo and start teaching her. Maybe it will turn out to be a necessary life skill!

[umsami]

I'm going to have to share this with dh! He is on a quest to find golf clubs for our left-handed three year old dd! I am of the opinion that no 3 yo needs real golf clubs, but he wants to take her with him when he takes the 6 yo and start teaching her. Maybe it will turn out to be a necessary life skill!

 

If you have Play it Again Sports or a similar store, they're great for used kids' golf clubs. 

 

You could also ask some pros who run kids clinics. They'd know who had outgrown their little clubs and moved on to a bigger pair. :)

[T'smom]

If you have Play it Again Sports or a similar store, they're great for used kids' golf clubs.

 

You could also ask some pros who run kids clinics. They'd know who had outgrown their little clubs and moved on to a bigger pair. :)

He's been watching on eBay and stuff. The problem is the left handed part. It's hard to find the little + left handed and not astronomically expensive. I think there is a Play it Again store in a nearby city though, so we'll have to check that out. Thanks!

[NASDAQ]

T'smom, you can cut down an adult club. That's what my grandfather did for us before children's clubs were around.

[momma2three]

Only on WTM would we travel from BSA and Eagles to left-handed children's golf clubs!

 

It totally makes me wonder what life-altering information I'm missing on threads that I don't click into.   :lol: