NY Times: Owning Up to Being a Homeschool Parent

[Crimson Wife]

Oh Seattle. Recently there was a tussle on a Seattle home schooling facebook page over whether people should be allowed to post creationist events, or whether this was . . . idk. I honestly don't see what the objection was. But it's hard to imagine that coming up in Nebraska.

Being a YEC says nothing about whether that person fits the "denim jumper" stereotype. I know plenty of YEC's who dress in mainstream clothing and have small-to-medium size families. Something like 40% of the U.S. population is a YEC.

[hepatica]

Did you see this blog post?

http://alt-school-life.com/2013/12/28/in-2014-who-writes-about-home-schooling-and-why/

 

"Jess gets some  of her best curriculum ideas from the Well -Trained Mind Forum, a beehive of classical education enthusiasts"

 

:ph34r: 

:seeya:

 

I guess it's time for me to sheepishly admit that I have been a member and reading here for many years and have never posted. But, now that Jennifer has "outed" me…...

 

The NYT piece was written by my sister. Aside from a couple of PhDs, our situations are quite different. I have been homeschooling for many years. I have three children, the oldest is 13 and none of them have ever been to school. I am not a "working" homeschooler. I left my academic job one year prior to getting tenure in order to stay home with my oldest child. So I have been out of the workforce for more than a decade. My spouse is a teacher and we live very modestly on one income. I am homeschooling full time and honestly it's all I can do to school three children. I can't image keeping up a job at the same time.

 

Jennifer, on the other hand, is quite new to homeschooling. She is homeschooling her oldest child only, and continuing her professional career. So, I think the identity of "homeschooler" is something she is still getting used to.

 

Jennifer started the blog and roped me into contributing. I was hesitant at first but have actually come to enjoy it. There are clearly two voices on the blog (we don't always agree), and I think you can see the differences in our posts.  

 

Just have to say that I feel like I know all of you already. I have gained so much incredible knowledge reading here and I really think this board represents the best  of modern homeschooling. The voices here are diverse and unique, but everyone is committed to providing a quality education and raising decent human beings. So here is a long overdue thank you!

 

Now I have to go work on a signature and overcoming my natural introversion ….

[PeachyDoodle]

I guess it's time for me to sheepishly admit that I have been a member and reading here for many years and have never posted. But, now that Jennifer has "outed" me…...

 

Welcome! :seeya:

[redsquirrel]

It's not news to us, but I bet it's news to a lot of mainstream society. I think that for the most part, people still think that the vast majority of homeschoolers are of the uber-sheltering, evangelical Christian, patriarchal-home sort--the denim jumper types, as mentioned above. WE know this isn't true, so her article is not news to us. A homeschooling corporate lawyer is probably pretty surprising for a lot of people. And you have to consider the source as well. The NYT has a fairly specific demographic market, and they tend to be the liberal types who strongly support public school systems (and I say this as a pretty liberal voter myself--I'm under no illusions!).

 

Also, I don't really see it as an opinion piece. The Motherlode is really just a high-profile blog. My sense is not so much that the author is arguing for or against anything. She's simply sharing her experience (and most likely drumming up readership for her personal blog as well).

I don't know it isn't true. That is what it feels like to me, living my life, reading these boards. When I have to explain my homeschooling status to 'civilians' I usually say 'we're not ALL like what you think. There's not a lot of us but we do exist." For so, so many people homeschooler=fundamentalist.

 

But I do agree that this is news to a lot of people. Not many will see it though. Motherload isn't in the printed paper (at least I don't think it is). The blog stuff is just available on the NYT website. It extra web content. You have to go looking for it on their website.

 

 

Being a YEC says nothing about whether that person fits the "denim jumper" stereotype. I know plenty of YEC's who dress in mainstream clothing and have small-to-medium size families. Something like 40% of the U.S. population is a YEC.

But I think YEC or religious fundamentalist is exactly what is meant by most people when they think of the 'denim jumper crowd'. It is more of a denim jumper of the mind, as it were. You may wear skinny jeans and Uggs and have three kids, but to the larger secular non-homeschooling world, YEC and their ilk are wearing a denim jumper. I don't think most people think they actually wear denim jumpers all the time.

 

Sort of like how my stepfather will call someone a 'New York Times reader' or an 'NPR listener' when he has no idea what their media consumption habits are. It is a way of summing up his particular stereotypes about liberals. I should add that he is a devoted NPR listener and supporter, lol. He loves the jazz shows. I like to remind him of that when he tosses that one out.  Or, like referring to 'bible thumpers'. I don't think anyone believes that there are people who are thumping bibles at all times. Their hands get sore and they need to take a break. :tongue_smilie:

[mommymilkies]

Another 'I homeschool, but not for the reasons they/the mommies do." 

 

 

It's getting old.

I disagree.  Unless you live in some sort of liberal haven, then you are lumped into "that" category which many of us are NOT and don't like being confused with.  I think it's great to get the view out there on more news sites that there ARE more types of homeschoolers so please stop assuming.  

 

I guess it's time for me to sheepishly admit that I have been a member and reading here for many years and have never posted. But, now that Jennifer has "outed" me…...

 

The NYT piece was written by my sister. Aside from a couple of PhDs, our situations are quite different. I have been homeschooling for many years. I have three children, the oldest is 13 and none of them have ever been to school. I am not a "working" homeschooler. I left my academic job one year prior to getting tenure in order to stay home with my oldest child. So I have been out of the workforce for more than a decade. My spouse is a teacher and we live very modestly on one income. I am homeschooling full time and honestly it's all I can do to school three children. I can't image keeping up a job at the same time.

 

Jennifer, on the other hand, is quite new to homeschooling. She is homeschooling her oldest child only, and continuing her professional career. So, I think the identity of "homeschooler" is something she is still getting used to.

 

Jennifer started the blog and roped me into contributing. I was hesitant at first but have actually come to enjoy it. There are clearly two voices on the blog (we don't always agree), and I think you can see the differences in our posts.  

 

Just have to say that I feel like I know all of you already. I have gained so much incredible knowledge reading here and I really think this board represents the best  of modern homeschooling. The voices here are diverse and unique, but everyone is committed to providing a quality education and raising decent human beings. So here is a long overdue thank you!

 

Now I have to go work on a signature and overcoming my natural introversion ….

Welcome! I also left a great job to stay home for the last decade and married a professor. :)  I love the blog, btw. 

[myfunnybunch]

Just have to say that I feel like I know all of you already. I have gained so much incredible knowledge reading here and I really think this board represents the best  of modern homeschooling. The voices here are diverse and unique, but everyone is committed to providing a quality education and raising decent human beings. So here is a long overdue thank you!

 

Now I have to go work on a signature and overcoming my natural introversion ….

 

Welcome! :) Glad you're jumping in to join us.

 

[KungFuPanda]

Where I live is not all that different from where the majority of New York Times readers are living. Most NYT readers are educated, affluent, and live in or near "blue" state cities. People like the blog post author (lawyer living in the D.C. metro area).

The author is still clearly in her homeschooling honeymoon phase where it's all new to her and the article seems written for people who have never given a thought to homeschooling. It's not really FOR us. Honestly, I've never seen much of the denim-jumper set while homeschooling in the Balt-D.C. area. You'd have to know they are there or join a fundie homeschooling group to even find them. I've never felt like that's a stereotype we're battling locally.

 

When you first start, there is this sense that you are doing something a bit different, but I really don't think my generation of homeschoolers can consider themselves pioneers. Yes, it's a lot of work and a steep learning curve out of the gate, but even in rigid states it's fairly easy to comply with the homeschooling laws. Yes, it's a huge deal to the family that's doing it, but it's not really 'news' anymore. It's just too easy to find homeschoolers around here in the land of endless field trip opportunities and good libraries.

 

What interests me as a long-time homeschooler is how people get stuck on the reading level of specific books in the classroom. I know it was the author's example, and likely not the 'reason' for homeschooling. Still, people get very bent out of shape over which books are chosen for a 50-minute language arts lesson in elementary school. I wonder how often the actual objectives of the lesson are missed because mothers get mad that their kids are reading Clifford and not Watership Down. Were they looking at sentence structure? Were they discussing this authors style/voice? Were they talking about how the words and illustrations supported one another in preparation for writing and publishing their own children's books in the next lesson? Was the theme of the book the point of a classroom discussion? Are the precocious readers really only reading THAT book in their day? Were they talking about how the story could be further developed?

 

"I" have learned things from children's books that I didn't know. Even if the reading level doesn't challenge you, any book containing information you don't know can be useful. Clifford in the classroom might be a reason to get your kid to the library more often, but is a really a REASON to homeschool? My avid reader went through a stack of library books every week and very few of them were books I'd assigned for schoolwork.

[catz]

I guess it's time for me to sheepishly admit that I have been a member and reading here for many years and have never posted. But, now that Jennifer has "outed" me…...

 ....

 

Now I have to go work on a signature and overcoming my natural introversion ….

Welcome! :) I enjoyed your sister's perspective. I have been homeschooling a number of years now, but I remember feeling uneasy making that choice at first and I also gave up a professional, highly paid career to homeschool (my husband has higher degrees as well). I think it's good for the world to get and read many perspectives on homeschooling. There's definitely no one size fits all for homeschooling

 

Definitely stick around!

[catz]

"I" have learned things from children's books that I didn't know. Even if the reading level doesn't challenge you, any book containing information you don't know can be useful. Clifford in the classroom might be a reason to get your kid to the library more often, but is a really a REASON to homeschool? My avid reader went through a stack of library books every week and very few of them were books I'd assigned for schoolwork.

I don't disagree with you necessarily. But I had a kid in a classroom reading at 6th grade level in 1st grade. And it didn't matter what you were doing with Clifford, he was still going to be unengaged, disruptive, and complaining. Some kids are just out of the box learners. My kid came home and read stacks and stacks of books of varying levels. But they were of his choosing.

 

I suspect the Clifford book was just an example of how that school wasn't a fit for that child. I'm speculating that isn't the primary reason they ultimately chose to homeschool, as someone who had a child in a similar situation. Ultimately, if my kid would have been happy and learning SOMETHING in school, he'd still be there. At least for us it was a HUGE decision to pull my child out of school and was not taken lightly at all.

[BrookValley.]

I guess it's time for me to sheepishly admit that I have been a member and reading here for many years and have never posted. But, now that Jennifer has "outed" me…...

 

The NYT piece was written by my sister. Aside from a couple of PhDs, our situations are quite different. I have been homeschooling for many years. I have three children, the oldest is 13 and none of them have ever been to school. I am not a "working" homeschooler. I left my academic job one year prior to getting tenure in order to stay home with my oldest child. So I have been out of the workforce for more than a decade. My spouse is a teacher and we live very modestly on one income. I am homeschooling full time and honestly it's all I can do to school three children. I can't image keeping up a job at the same time.

 

Jennifer, on the other hand, is quite new to homeschooling. She is homeschooling her oldest child only, and continuing her professional career. So, I think the identity of "homeschooler" is something she is still getting used to.

 

Jennifer started the blog and roped me into contributing. I was hesitant at first but have actually come to enjoy it. There are clearly two voices on the blog (we don't always agree), and I think you can see the differences in our posts.  

 

Just have to say that I feel like I know all of you already. I have gained so much incredible knowledge reading here and I really think this board represents the best  of modern homeschooling. The voices here are diverse and unique, but everyone is committed to providing a quality education and raising decent human beings. So here is a long overdue thank you!

 

Now I have to go work on a signature and overcoming my natural introversion ….

 

:seeya:  Hey there. Glad you decided to join us! This is a great place for overcoming introversion.

 

I enjoyed your sister's piece. I think it's interesting to get a glimpse into other's experiences, even if they are different than your own. I'm also enjoying your blog.

 

Oh, and if you have any awesome tips for secular activities in your area, please share with me. I'm dyin' here (about an hour south of you).

 

ETA: by secular activities, I mean organized get-togethers, co-ops, and the like that involve inclusive groups and don't require statements of faith. Things of that sort.

 

[wapiti]

Something like 40% of the U.S. population is a YEC.

 

If it's that large, that really surprises me.  To my knowledge, I haven't known any YECs, ever, though obviously it's not something often discussed (plus I'm Catholic and have spent most of my life in or near several big cities - maybe I'm in my own sort of bubble?).

[wapiti]

I did identify with the article about the feeling of wanting to keep homeschooling less-than public knowledge when I was homeschooling my dd.  I know there are at least a few negative, unenlightened opinions about homeschooling among the people at dh's firm.  On the stereotype, it doesn't help that we have six kids - I remember when I was delivering my last one, my surprise, one of the labor nurses asked, "so, do you homeschool too?"  I laughed at the thought at the time, saying no, I'm not crazy (and truly, homeschooling all of them is a very significant challenge that I'm not interested in undertaking unless academic circumstances require that; still, I find myself here all the time, maybe as an insurance policy in case I ever need to).

[ElizabethB]

Oh, just the stereotype that women in Seattle only wear "ugly" shoes like clogs, clarks, born, keens and naots or hiking shoes. I pretty much live in laceless converse, keen trail shoes or these brown keen boots. I don't think it is exclusive to Seattle at all. But we tend to be pretty casual and people don't tend to dress up all that much. You will certainly see as more birkenstocks and clogs at the opera here than you would heels and wingtips.

My mom, who lives in the Seattle area, broke her ankle a few years ago and can only wear a few types of shoes now. She had one pair that she thought was unfashionable because they were so ugly, she didn't believe me when I told her they were actually quite fashionable. About a month later after several fashionistas assured her that they were a hot trend, she called and told me I was right, although she still thought they were ugly! (I told her that even if I didn't always follow the trends, I did know what was fashionable and what was not, I just wear what I like and is comfortable irregardless of the trends.)

[Crimson Wife]

What interests me as a long-time homeschooler is how people get stuck on the reading level of specific books in the classroom. I know it was the author's example, and likely not the 'reason' for homeschooling. Still, people get very bent out of shape over which books are chosen for a 50-minute language arts lesson in elementary school. I wonder how often the actual objectives of the lesson are missed because mothers get mad that their kids are reading Clifford and not Watership Down. Were they looking at sentence structure? Were they discussing this authors style/voice? Were they talking about how the words and illustrations supported one another in preparation for writing and publishing their own children's books in the next lesson? Was the theme of the book the point of a classroom discussion? Are the precocious readers really only reading THAT book in their day? Were they talking about how the story could be further developed?

 

"I" have learned things from children's books that I didn't know. Even if the reading level doesn't challenge you, any book containing information you don't know can be useful. Clifford in the classroom might be a reason to get your kid to the library more often, but is a really a REASON to homeschool? My avid reader went through a stack of library books every week and very few of them were books I'd assigned for schoolwork.

I think it's shorthand for her kid being gifted (or at least very bright) while the instruction level in the class is tailored to struggling students. So it's not just reading Clifford in 3rd grade but also all the other subjects being too easy as well.

[Crimson Wife]

If it's that large, that really surprises me.  To my knowledge, I haven't known any YECs, ever, though obviously it's not something often discussed (plus I'm Catholic and have spent most of my life in or near several big cities - maybe I'm in my own sort of bubble?).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx

 

We have a bunch of friends who are highly educated, white collar professionals and YEC's. Maybe it's because DH was involved with the Young Republicans club at grad school (he's a Republican, I'm "decline to state", which is California-ese for Independent).

[KungFuPanda]

Being a YEC says nothing about whether that person fits the "denim jumper" stereotype. I know plenty of YEC's who dress in mainstream clothing and have small-to-medium size families. Something like 40% of the U.S. population is a YEC.

 

That can't be right. 40%!?!?

[ElizabethB]

That can't be right. 40%!?!?

It would be interesting to see a state by state breakout. I wonder if the percentages are fairly constant and there are just differences in how much people talk about it or if there are statistically significant differences. For example, people in Texas and Arkansas openly talk about it, but we have friends in areas like CA that are YEC and professionals, but they are unlikely to mention the fact unless among friends. (Or at Biola, one of our friends in CA has taken a few classes there!)

[kitten18]

That can't be right. 40%!?!?

I really don't believe it is. Even looking at the poll, I think people missed the part of the question about the last 10,000 years.

[LucyStoner]

Where I live is not all that different from where the majority of New York Times readers are living. Most NYT readers are educated, affluent, and live in or near "blue" state cities. People like the blog post author (lawyer living in the D.C. metro area).

You well know that in these circles the stigma against homeschooling is that it is percieved as an endeavor undertaken largely by zealots or radicals. And the DC metro area lays closer to larger pockets of conservative homeschooling than San Francisco.

[LucyStoner]

That can't be right. 40%!?!?

Actually it is right:

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx

 

Creationism, specifically YEC has gained acceptance rather than lost it. 39% say it is definitely true that god created humans in their present form in the last 10,000 years and another 1/4 say "probably" true.

 

I had to dig this up for my son who was flabbergasted that evolution was not actually the mainstream view outside of the science community.

[redsquirrel]

I am highly skeptical of that 40% figure. First of all, Gallup specifically didn't do so well in the last presidential election, lol. I don't reject it entirely, I am just retaining a healthy does of skepticism.

 

A poll is a snapshot of the people who answered the poll at that time, on that day. In the last election we learned that younger people are consistently not polled in some areas because they don't have land lines. And most people screen their calls. Polling tends to sample older people, people who still have land lines (in some areas), people who don't screen their calls, people who have listed phone numbers, people who have time to take a survey, people who live in certain time zones, etc. That said, the art and science of polling isn't new and there are some really good methodologies out there.

 

I would need to breakout the figures and look at the populations questioned, how they were reached, what the questions were etc. And even then it is a good idea to look at several different polls over time and by different companies.

 

That said, please, don't anyone feel compelled to googlebomb with results of polling on the topic. It needs so much more than the cursory glance I could give it at this point. There is a reason why people who actually know how to take a poll apart and read them and compare then get paid a lot of money by people who need to understand the results.

 

here is a great book about the strengths and weaknesses of the numbers game

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Signal-Noise-Many-Predictions/dp/159420411X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390586387&sr=8-1&keywords=nate+silver

[bensonduck]

Honestly, I've never seen much of the denim-jumper set while homeschooling in the Balt-D.C. area. You'd have to know they are there or join a fundie homeschooling group to even find them. I've never felt like that's a stereotype we're battling locally.

 

That's interesting to me.  I'm only in my second year homeschooling (so obviously not up on what the region has to offer), but in Northern Virginia I have seen quite a few interesting activities and church based things where one has to sign a statement of faith to join. Particularly the sports groups.  

 

Now obviously not all of these groups are "denim jumper" set but they are not that open to people who wish to homeschool secularly or wish to keep their faith out of their extracurricular activities.  I wish there were more secular, open groups and activities to explore around here.

[Crimson Wife]

You well know that in these circles the stigma against homeschooling is that it is percieved as an endeavor undertaken largely by zealots or radicals.

Hence my annoyance in her perpetuating the stereotype. It might have been the norm 20 years ago, but today HSing is much more mainstream.

[LucyStoner]

Hence my annoyance in her perpetuating the stereotype. It might have been the norm 20 years ago, but today HSing is much more mainstream.

Yet the stereotype is hardly without basis, even today. Just look at the speakers lists of various conventions and at who is selling some of the most popular homeschool curriculums.

[hepatica]

I don't disagree with you necessarily. But I had a kid in a classroom reading at 6th grade level in 1st grade. And it didn't matter what you were doing with Clifford, he was still going to be unengaged, disruptive, and complaining. Some kids are just out of the box learners. My kid came home and read stacks and stacks of books of varying levels. But they were of his choosing.

 

I suspect the Clifford book was just an example of how that school wasn't a fit for that child. I'm speculating that isn't the primary reason they ultimately chose to homeschool, as someone who had a child in a similar situation. Ultimately, if my kid would have been happy and learning SOMETHING in school, he'd still be there. At least for us it was a HUGE decision to pull my child out of school and was not taken lightly at all.

 

I think this is right. The Clifford thing is a red herring. It was just at that meeting with the principal that homeschooling was suggested and she began to consider it as a real possibility. Prior to that I think she thought of homeschooling as something admirable but really only possible for people who were not working (like me). There had been some discussion of skipping a grade, but her daughter was already a young third grader. So while linguistically precocious, skipping grades may have been a challenge in other ways. The school was not a good fit for that child, but it did take quite a bit of agonizing to come to the decision to homeschool.

[Crimson Wife]

That's interesting to me.  I'm only in my second year homeschooling (so obviously not up on what the region has to offer), but in Northern Virginia I have seen quite a few interesting activities and church based things where one has to sign a statement of faith to join. Particularly the sports groups.

But SOF =/= "denim jumper". It just means Christian (more accurately Protestant Christian but SOF groups tend to exclude Catholic & EO from their definition of "Christian").

 

"Denim jumper" HSers are a particular small subset of fundamentalist HSers, one that tends to get a lot more attention in the press because of the Duggar's TV show, documentaries like "Jesus Camp", Kathryn Joyce's book about the Quiverfull movement, and so on. than their actual representation among HSers.

[snowbeltmom]

Yet the stereotype is hardly without basis, even today. Just look at the speakers lists of various conventions and at who is selling some of the most popular homeschool curriculums.

 

:iagree:

I went to my first and only homeschool convention my first year of homeschooling.  What an eye opener that was.  The stereotypes are alive and thriving.

 

[TracyP]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx

 

We have a bunch of friends who are highly educated, white collar professionals and YEC's. Maybe it's because DH was involved with the Young Republicans club at grad school (he's a Republican, I'm "decline to state", which is California-ese for Independent).

 

But the poll didn't ask about young earth. 40% think that humans were created in their current form in the last 10,000 years. I know many people who believe this - I used to. Young earthers believe that the earth and all life on it were created in the last 10,000 years or less. I know very few people who believe this - I was an adult before I even heard of such a thing. It could be a bubble that I live in, but I wonder what the answer would be to a question like: do you believe that the earth, the sun, single celled organisms, dinosaurs, and human beings were all created in a 6 day period less than 10,000 years ago?

[redsquirrel]

But SOF =/= "denim jumper". It just means Christian (more accurately Protestant Christian but SOF groups tend to exclude Catholic & EO from their definition of "Christian").

 

"Denim jumper" HSers are a particular small subset of fundamentalist HSers, one that tends to get a lot more attention in the press because of the Duggar's TV show, documentaries like "Jesus Camp", Kathryn Joyce's book about the Quiverfull movement, and so on. than their actual representation among HSers.

 

I would never think to make a distinction between 'denim jumper' homeschoolers and other fundamentalist homeschoolers. They are all in the same camp to me. They might see differences between themselves, but to this secular girl they seem to be cut from the same cloth, so to speak. Of course, I don't differentiate between YEC and other creationists. I only recently learned that there is a difference between the two. In the end, the result is the same so the differences don't matter much to me, an outsider.

[Crimson Wife]

I would never think to make a distinction between 'denim jumper' homeschoolers and other fundamentalist homeschoolers. They are all in the same camp to me. They might see differences between themselves, but to this secular girl they seem to be cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

So you seriously don't see ANY difference between a regular Evangelical with a small-to-medium family, who wears mainstream clothes, probably went to college (maybe even grad school) and had a career before she became a SAHM, etc., etc. and somebody like Michelle Duggar?

[mommymilkies]

If it's that large, that really surprises me.  To my knowledge, I haven't known any YECs, ever, though obviously it's not something often discussed (plus I'm Catholic and have spent most of my life in or near several big cities - maybe I'm in my own sort of bubble?).

I never ever knew any until we moved here, either.  

 

I am highly skeptical of that 40% figure. First of all, Gallup specifically didn't do so well in the last presidential election, lol. I don't reject it entirely, I am just retaining a healthy does of skepticism.

 

A poll is a snapshot of the people who answered the poll at that time, on that day. In the last election we learned that younger people are consistently not polled in some areas because they don't have land lines. And most people screen their calls. Polling tends to sample older people, people who still have land lines (in some areas), people who don't screen their calls, people who have listed phone numbers, people who have time to take a survey, people who live in certain time zones, etc. That said, the art and science of polling isn't new and there are some really good methodologies out there.

 

I would need to breakout the figures and look at the populations questioned, how they were reached, what the questions were etc. And even then it is a good idea to look at several different polls over time and by different companies.

 

That said, please, don't anyone feel compelled to googlebomb with results of polling on the topic. It needs so much more than the cursory glance I could give it at this point. There is a reason why people who actually know how to take a poll apart and read them and compare then get paid a lot of money by people who need to understand the results.

 

here is a great book about the strengths and weaknesses of the numbers game

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Signal-Noise-Many-Predictions/dp/159420411X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390586387&sr=8-1&keywords=nate+silver

This!  I don't know ANYONE who had ever been called for any sort of poll except dh one year got asked on the phone for a poll only if he was a Dem/Repub.  I'm highly suspicious of how they get these results. 

[LibraryLover]

That's a good blog!

[redsquirrel]

So you seriously don't see ANY difference between a regular Evangelical with a small-to-medium family, who wears mainstream clothes, probably went to college (maybe even grad school) and had a career before she became a SAHM, etc., etc. and somebody like Michelle Duggar?

 

If he or she is YEC or creationist, no. I don't see the difference between that person and somebody like Michelle Duggar.  What difference do you see? There may, or may not be, different attitudes towards patriarchy or submissiveness. While that might seem like a big difference to someone in the actual groups, it isn't that much to hang your hat on if you are outside the group. They all end up in more or less the same place using more or less the same homeschooling materials.

 

Yes, I understand there are differences of doctrine or whatever, I have even become slightly conversant in some of them. But as someone who is not a part of the evangelical or fundamentalist religious world it all sort of seem the same to me at a foundational level. Denim jumpers or college education or not.

 

And I should add that I know very little about poor Ms Duggar, who seems to be the standard bearer of something, but I am not sure what. What I know about her I have learned here and maybe a people magazine article in a dentist office. For all I know she has a solid college education and had a career and has an analytical and insightful mind. (and having a college education and having an analytical and insightful mind are in No Way mutually exclusive!)

[T'smom]

I am also highly skeptical of the 40% figure. I am a Protestant Christian, my dad is a Baptist preacher and honestly, I wouldn't know that there were young-earth creationists if I wasnn't a homeschooler. Because I'm a homeschooler, I knew the name Ken Ham and knew to avoid going to the Baptist church in town that uses his materials for Sunday School. But honestly, I think you could attend there for a year or more before you even knew that's what they believed. On a couple of occassions I have mentioned "young earth creationism" to people and they had no idea it was even a thing. One has been in church her whole life and her husband is an elder and the other wasn't raised in the church but is pretty active in it now. Both of them are like "what are you talking about?" I do believe that 40% call themselves creationists. I would describe myself that way, just without the young earth part!

[Crimson Wife]

If he or she is YEC or creationist, no. I don't see the difference between that person and somebody like Michelle Duggar.  What difference do you see?

Just the minor difference that regular Evangelicals see men and women as equal but playing complementary roles, and the "denim jumper" crowd would like to see a return to the bad old days where women were legally 2nd class citizens under the "cover" of their husband, father, or other male relative.

[LucyStoner]

Complementarians and those that support a return in any of the various forms of coverture frankly have more in common with each other than I do with either of them. From the outside looking in, it's a potato-pahtahtoe debate. Not the least of which being that complementarians tend to make excuses for parents who want to proscribe gender roles and sexual identities on their teenage children. At least that has been my personal experience.

[LucyStoner]

I never ever knew any until we moved here, either.

 

This! I don't know ANYONE who had ever been called for any sort of poll except dh one year got asked on the phone for a poll only if he was a Dem/Repub. I'm highly suspicious of how they get these results.

I'm not going to say that Gallup is 100% correct. That said, Gallup does in fact include cell phone in polls for 5-6 years now (though these numbers are older). And I have been called by polling places, though I rarely agree to participate. While the number may not be as high Gallup pegged it, it is still an astonishingly large number given the scientific data and consensus.

[bensonduck]

But SOF =/= "denim jumper". It just means Christian (more accurately Protestant Christian but SOF groups tend to exclude Catholic & EO from their definition of "Christian").

 

"Denim jumper" HSers are a particular small subset of fundamentalist HSers, one that tends to get a lot more attention in the press because of the Duggar's TV show, documentaries like "Jesus Camp", Kathryn Joyce's book about the Quiverfull movement, and so on. than their actual representation among HSers.

 

I understand what you are saying.  I am new to homeschooling, so I am not fully aware of all the nuances of different groups.  I apologize for my ignorance.  I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone.

 

 

Do you think that the SOF and [Protestant] Christian groups are lumped in with the denim jumper crowd in the general mainstream mindset - and sometimes it can be difficult for newbies or those unfamiliar with homeschooling to differentiate the two?  I wonder if homeschoolers are viewed by the mainstream as more "denim jumper" than they actually are because people are conflating the SOF groups with the more traditional fundamentalist HSers.

[momma2three]

Complementarians and those that support a return in any of the various forms of coverture frankly have more in common with each other than I do with either of them. From the outside looking in, it's a potato-pahtahtoe debate. Not the least of which being that complementarians tend to make excuses for parents who want to proscribe gender roles and sexual identities on their teenage children. At least that has been my personal experience.

 

Not personally knowing anyone from either group, I think of them as pretty much the same, but am aware that there is a slight difference that matters to them.  Kind of like how I'm aware that there are different Amish orders, or that the more conservative Mennonites appear pretty similar to the Amish in many ways, but have some distinct views that I don't really know much about.

[LucyStoner]

I am quite familiar with some in each group, counting some of each on my family tree and having been raised in a very religious home and exposed to a range of uber liberals and conservatives and attended Gothard's Basic Life Principles for myself. I am familiar enough with their beliefs to determine if I agree or disagree and to what degree. It's not outside and unfamiliar. It's outside because I wholly reject both.

[sassenach]

 

Many homeschoolers are easily identified from a far distance by their attire. Maybe not denim jumpers exactly, but home sewn ankle length dresses, and a certain hard to describe wholesome, well-scrubbed look. Stereotypes are alive and well for a reason.

:rofl:

 

Based on my small Seattle sample size I could conclude that homeschoolers are mainly affluent white liberal college educated atheists bedazzled in REI gear who drive Subarus and hike a lot. But that population is hardly the majority of homeschoolers nationwide or even when just looking at my state as a whole.

Ditto this for my county, just north of SF.  Except it's a 50/50 subaru/BMW blend.

 

I very much wish that I could have kept my job but still been a homeschooler. However it was a 24/7 job and I had to wear a beeper (remember beepers?) and be on call weeknights and weekends. I couldn't even figure out how to parent and keep my job, much less homeschool.

 

The only regret I have about homeschooling is I gave up a job I adored. But, it really was a job meant for a young person with few commitments. But I loved it and was very good at it.

 

This was the quote that struck true to me, " Even regular people who home-schooled solely for educational reasons — including my sister, a former professor — shared with the “denim jumper†crowd an unswerving, 24/7 devotion to the project. None were trying to squeeze home education around the demands of a job."

 

This is the part of homeschooling that is universal, no matter if you're YEC, crunchy, jumper wearing, rigorous, unschooling, or whatever. Homeschooling consumes a share of emotion, energy, idle thought, stress, and TIME that is unavoidable.  It's the constant tap-tap-tap in the background and I've never met a single homeschooler that didn't have to deal with it.  When I knew we needed to pull my dd home, I AGONIZED over the decision in part because I knew it would shift my whole life.  I can imagine that the author, having a sister who was already homeschooling, was well aware of what it was going to mean for her.  Not in a far off, "Doesn't this sound fun?" way, but in an, "Oh, sh*t, am I really going to do this?" way.

 

 

 

"I" have learned things from children's books that I didn't know. Even if the reading level doesn't challenge you, any book containing information you don't know can be useful. Clifford in the classroom might be a reason to get your kid to the library more often, but is a really a REASON to homeschool? My avid reader went through a stack of library books every week and very few of them were books I'd assigned for schoolwork.

 

Adam Andrews recommends using picture books to study lit elements, even with high schoolers. 

[Crimson Wife]

Complementarians and those that support a return in any of the various forms of coverture frankly have more in common with each other than I do with either of them. From the outside looking in, it's a potato-pahtahtoe debate.

Well, if you can't distinguish between normal, mainstream Evangelical Christians and the whackadoodle "dominionist"/VF/ATI crowd, then I don't know what to say to you. It's like not being able to distinguish between a normal, mainstream vegetarian and the whackadoodle Animal Liberation Front. After all, they're both against eating meat, right?

[LucyStoner]

Well, if you can't distinguish between normal, mainstream Evangelical Christians and the whackadoodle "dominionist"/VF/ATI crowd, then I don't know what to say to you. It's like not being able to distinguish between a normal, mainstream vegetarian and the whackadoodle Animal Liberation Front. After all, they're both against eating meat, right?

Gothard wasn't considered that out of the evangelical mainstream when I attended his conference and left everyday with a lengthy list of horrified notes. Complementarians may not like being similar to a fringe, but that doesn't mean they are mainstream.  Also, complentarianism is exactly what is taught at places like Bob Jones, Patrick Henry and Pensacola Christian College.  Not organizations I personally consider to be mainstream.  And certainly not organizations considered by most in say, the Bay Area, to be mainstream. PCC (Abeka) and Bob Jones are hardly non-players in the homeschool market, are they?

 

ETA:

 

Also, there is a difference between "can't" and "don't".  I see the claimed difference.  I just don't accept it as being all that different.  It sounds more like wanting to mainstream complementarian ideas or distance oneself from uncomfortable similarities to some pretty distasteful people. 

[redsquirrel]

Just the minor difference that regular Evangelicals see men and women as equal but playing complementary roles, and the "denim jumper" crowd would like to see a return to the bad old days where women were legally 2nd class citizens under the "cover" of their husband, father, or other male relative.

To me it looks like variations on a theme. And for me the dividing line isn't about what specific church someone belongs to, I have zero desire to pick apart the finer distinctions of someone's theology. As I stated previously, for me simplist dividing line comes down to what science is taught.  There isn't no difference to me between people who are YEC and, are they called old earth creationists? Regular creationists? Jeepers, I can't even keep up with the camps they divide themselves into.

 

Well, if you can't distinguish between normal, mainstream Evangelical Christians and the whackadoodle "dominionist"/VF/ATI crowd, then I don't know what to say to you. It's like not being able to distinguish between a normal, mainstream vegetarian and the whackadoodle Animal Liberation Front. After all, they're both against eating meat, right?

I know there is a difference, but there is no practical difference between them in my life and in my relationship to all of those sectarian groups.

 

And I do understand the problems that arise from not knowing the difference between sects because it is exactly those whackadoodle folks that I am always having to distance myself from. I like to quote Eddie Izzard and call myself 'an executive homeschooler' for just that reason. Yes, there are weirdo homeschoolers, but I am an Executive Homeschooler, thank you very much. I define 'wackadoodle' differently than you do, I guess.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Given that somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 of the U.S. population is an Evangelical, I *WOULD* consider that pretty darn "mainstream". I'm not one of them, but that doesn't mean I tar them all with the same brush just because some tiny subset of them hold whackadoodle notions about "dominionism", legally-enforced patriarchy, etc.

[momma2three]

Given that somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 of the U.S. population is an Evangelical, I *WOULD* consider that pretty darn "mainstream". I'm not one of them, but that doesn't mean I tar them all with the same brush just because some tiny subset of them hold whackadoodle notions about "dominionism", legally-enforced patriarchy, etc.

 

I think you'll find that very regional.  In some parts of the country, almost everyone is.  In others, nearly nobody.  I think I live in a "nearly nobody" area.  There is a Southern Baptist church in my town (I think they count, right?), but I don't know anyone who goes there.  Somebody told me it's the only one in the area, and draws from a really wide region, so it's not necessarily people in my town who go there.

[LucyStoner]

Given that somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 of the U.S. population is an Evangelical, I *WOULD* consider that pretty darn "mainstream". I'm not one of them, but that doesn't mean I tar them all with the same brush just because some tiny subset of them hold whackadoodle notions about "dominionism", legally-enforced patriarchy, etc.

Who says that most evangelicals subscribe to complementary gender ideas? Most of the ones I know do not. And complementary writings I have read do not focus on the equality of men and women, but on what I would call a softened up version of patriarchy. By any name, that is not a value I share. Trust me when I say I am familiar with this and simply don't agree that complementarian ideas treat men and women as equals.

[redsquirrel]

Given that somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 of the U.S. population is an Evangelical, I *WOULD* consider that pretty darn "mainstream". I'm not one of them, but that doesn't mean I tar them all with the same brush just because some tiny subset of them hold whackadoodle notions about "dominionism", legally-enforced patriarchy, etc.

 

As I have said previously, my personal dividing line isn't based on a particular church membership. I don't care about that at all. I assure you, most of the time I wouldn't even know what it is. I don't speak the code very well (a little bit) so I don't always recognize the clues as to what sect they belong. Sometimes it jumps right out at you though, lol. 

 

Someone's stance on evolution will cause me to mentally file them in with the 'denim jumper crowd'.  Again, that has been the easiest way for me to establish myself with 'civilians' as not being 'one of those homeschoolers'. I tell people we homeschool, I get the look, I say, "Oh, we homeschool but I teach evolution." and they relax and everything carries on. Sometimes I get asked if homeschoolers are allowed to not teach evolution and that leads to a slightly longer discussion, but I try really hard to keep it brief.

 

It works the other way when I meet homeschoolers. Where I live the fundamentalist homeschoolers and the rest of the homeschoolers don't mix. I have no idea if that is typical. But here, Leah folks are pretty separate. The secular homeschoolers are actually a mix of totally secular and those who are religious but don't meet Leah standards. I have heard from some that the local Leah group freezes you out pretty quickly if you aren't conservative enough. Occasionally a homeschooling parent will spot me (used to happen more when my kids were smaller) and will start up a conversation. I can guarantee it is a LEAH person if I get asked if I use curriculum. There seems to be some thought that unschooler=secular and religious=curriculum around here. When I say yes I get asked what I use, again, pretty normal conversation. If I don't mention science I will get asked specifically what kind of science. When I tell them what we use that is the end of the conversation. I get told to have a nice day and they hope to see me around.

 

It sounds like when you think of or use 'denim jumper crowd' you are either referring to what particular church or churches they attend or their stance on dominionism and legally enforced patriarchy.

[8circles]

I don't understand the lumping and dividing going on here. I self-identify as a creationist but I teach science - and only science - for the subject of science. But I'm no different than fundie patriarchists? I think your lumps are too big.

[redsquirrel]

I don't understand the lumping and dividing going on here. I self-identify as a creationist but I teach science - and only science - for the subject of science. But I'm no different than fundie patriarchists? I think your lumps are too big.

 

:lol:

 

But do you wear a denim jumper? That is the real question. :001_smile: