Classical Ed is not working for my son

[CookieMonster]

Or, at least, that's how it feels.  Maybe I just need to hear that I'm normal.  But, maybe I need to do something drastically different.

 

I'm tired of the "I don't like school" comments.  I'm frustrated that I spent TIME and energy teaching him grammar, etc. that he simply doesn't care to remember.  He is good about dutifully doing what I say is imperative, but he doesn't like it, it isn't sticking, and I can tell he feels frustrated.  (Honestly, he's good about dutifully doing it only after he throws fits - and sometimes cries.)

 

He still cannot work independently, at least not with the traditional and classical materials I've been using.  He skips things, doesn't follow directions, and is not neat.  I have worked really hard to help him.  I tweak his work load every year to what he can handle without major blowups (hidden frustration manifesting itself).  He is in fourth grade this year, and we are still not getting to history.  STILL!  Because he cannot handle the extra work and still get imperative things like math done too.  We only do four days of each subject a week, because he cannot handle five.  Right now, those four-day-a-week subjects are Bible, Math, Latin, English, and Reading.  Science works out to about 2 days per week with all the breaks in the wonky schedule it came with.  Bible is an easy subject and only 15 minutes.  Latin is Latina Christiana I, with his 2nd grade sister, and it seems easy for him.  English and math he struggles with, even though he is smart and capable.  He is able to learn a lot, but usually needs twice as much repetition as an average student would need in order to retain concepts.

 

This child is challenging all my cherished notions about how best to educate a child.  When read the Well Trained Mind I fell in love.  I've tried to implement it with my son, making modifications for his... quirks... and it doesn't seem to be working well.  I here readily admit that I'm upset that it just isn't working.  It is really important to me that my children have skills like writing, math, and reading.  Those are the very things he would rather not ever do.  And it's not like he isn't learning anything, most people comment on how "smart" he is, but it is a big struggle for both of us for him to learn these things.
 

I taught him to read, against his will, because asking him to sit down for 20 minutes four days a week was not too much to ask, in my mind.  He still fought me all the way.  Now?  He using his un-asked-for tool all the time, with relish.  I know that school/learning is not all fun, because it is work, and work is not always fun - especially when it is hard.  But, the further we go with homeschooling, the more it feels like he truly dislikes school entirely.  I do not want him to look back on homeschooling with disgust.

 

I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side.  But, that seems to lead nowhere.  He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests.  He really would like to just play electronic games, watch tv, and play with his sisters or friends all day.  I feel much too responsible for his future employment possibilities to just let him do that, as some have suggested to me.  He has all these ideas about building things or inventions, but doesn't have the skill-set to follow through with these things.

 

Contrast all of that with his younger sister.  She doesn't always love school stuff, but it's rarely a struggle.  Classical Ed is going swimmingly with her and she is retaining her knowledge.  The biggest problem she has is her older brother eating up all of mom's available time and leaving her with less education that she is capable of achieving.  This eating up of my time is a big issue.

 

I just don't know what to do.  I will continue pressing on and dealing with it, if it is what's best, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this hard.  Part of me wants to let him dive headlong into his varied and fleeting interests with no formal education, but I fear for those basic skills I feel he needs.  I cannot figure out how that would actually work.

 

I'm not really sure what I'm actually asking here.  Hopefully someone can read through the lines for me.

 

 

Help?  Ideas?  Thoughts?

[EKS]

Are there any parts of the day that go well?  If so, what exactly are you doing?  When do things go bad?  For example, with my younger son, things can go really well or really poorly.  When we've gone through stages of things going poorly, I've analyzed exactly when the switch flips.  Triggers for my son have been:  too many worksheets, too much writing, too much repetition, resources that aren't engaging, etc.  What has helped:  eliminating worksheets, having me scribe, using a keyboard, using a whiteboard, doing more things orally, cutting down on unnecessary repetition, and finding resources that spark my son's interest.

 

What do you mean when you say he can't work independently?  What are you expecting him to do exactly?

[almondbutterandjelly]

((hugs)) It's hard when they don't learn like we do, isn't it?  When their brain doesn't even THINK the same way we do.  It's hard.  Going strictly WTM doesn't work for every kid.  You have to modify.  It sounds like you know that, but you don't want to further let go of the traditional materials.

 

What are you using for grammar?  Fourth grade is the perfect time for the uber-fun Sentence Family.  We also continued to read Scholastic's Grammar Tales and watch Schoolhouse Rock in 4th grade.  Make it fun.  Did you know in all my adult life, I never had to tell someone which words in my sentences were nouns, though?  Keep it in perspective.  Also, take a look at, say, an 8th grade English book like Voyages in English.  To me, the content is the same as the lower levels.  Why mess with it for years and years when you get it again and again and again?

 

You really might have to honor your son's learning style more fully than you are now.  If he's not retaining the way you are teaching, why are you wasting your time?  Change it up.  Yes, he does have to do English.  No, he does not have do it in the traditional way.

 

You said he likes to read.  Get a book tub full of books that will appeal to him, on stories or topics that work for you.  If he likes picture books, get them on fun history topics or science topics.  Tell him to read for 15 or 30 minutes a day from that book tub.  He's a boy, so he might also be interested in the Horrible Histories and Horrible Sciences books.  What about graphic novels?  Timberdoodle has quite a few.  Amazon carries a ton.  We have graphic novels of Columbus' voyages, of Shakespearean plays, of Max Axiom science concepts.

 

Good luck, Mom, and good for you for noticing and honoring your son's struggles!

 

 

[KarenNC]

We've ended up doing a pretty highly modified version, probably more accurately "classically inspired" homeschooling. I, too, fell in love with TWTM initially, but many of the suggestions haven't worked out well in practice with my daughter. Around that age, on several occasions when someone would ask her if she liked school, she would say she hated it. We didn't do the memorization, did science entirely differently, found out she hates hands-on building and craft projects in most areas but likes to draw or do Powerpoint, etc. I will say that at this point, when I ask if she is interested in attending public high school, she thinks I'm insane. :001_smile:

 

I feel your frustration in English and math! We dropped Singapore after working K-4A with it because I was getting the constant fighting, tears, taking forever to do simple things,  "I hate math!" "I'm stupid!" comments, etc and switched to Saxon, which, while not her favorite subject, gets done with minimal aggravation. I held on so long because I was convinced that Singapore was the *only* program one should use with bright students (and she is, but math is her relatively weakest area) and to switch to Saxon would be "failure." Not so. It turned out that she felt like Singapore was moving too fast for her. She needed the repetition that some others describe as "drill and kill." For her, it is "drill and thrive."

 

With English, grammar has been my consistent brick wall. We've done grammar every year since K, using all sorts of different approaches and programs (FLL, GWG, Shurley, Easy Grammar, Killgallon, MCT, etc). This is a child gifted in the language arts area, always tested way ahead in reading, etc, and won state level medals for her age this year from the Duke talent identification program based on her SAT and ACT scores in reading/writing, but after 8 *years* of grammar she *still* has problems with pronouns! :banghead:  My friend who worked as a technical writer said she didn't really "get" grammar until high school.

 

We continue to work on neat work in math, and her handwriting will likely never be what I would like to see (bonus, though, that it's more legible than her father's!). We continue to work on following directions completely. We continue to work on time management. It's a lot longer process than I expected it would be when we started on this journey, and that's frequently been very frustrating to me. In my case, it's often been an issue of needing to modify either my expectations of what would be age appropriate or realizing that she and I learn in very different ways, so just because I love a curriculum doesn't mean it's the best fit. I'm coming to accept, for instance, that if I get her through the physics in physical science it may be a minor miracle, much less even think about it in high school (I was a physics major). It's been helpful to talk about this with my husband, as she is much more like him in learning style, areas of giftedness, and interests (he was an English lit major). He is able to give me a little perspective when I am totally frustrated that she doesn't seem to grasp what to me are incredibly simple concepts.

 

It also has meant that we ended up outsourcing the subjects that were the biggest source of conflicts (we're both very hard-headed, which also doesn't help) to have some peace in the house. I went to dvd-based instruction for math (Art Reed videos and now the at your own pace through the Virtual Homeschool Group for Saxon) and I put her in an outside writing class that includes grammar. It made a world of difference! In 2 years, we've gone from writing (in 6th grade, mind you) "I have 3 favorite colors. They are red, blue, and green. I like red because...." to pulling upper 90s in a high school level honors writing class working on essays, and research papers. In our situation, it took me stepping back out of the picture as far as I could and seeing that she does indeed do her best work for others. I'm glad to see she can do the work that I knew she was capable of, but, really, <_< .

[AK_Mom4]

That sounds like a miserable day! 

 

With regards to the "I hate school" thing.... yeah, I hear you!  DD12 has said that at least once a day for the past 3 years.  It's not even that she dislikes school work (except for writing) but that she has a 1000 other things she would rather be doing.

 

Kai has has some good ideas above at looking for what sets them off and adjusting towards what is working well.  At age 9, even my "independent worker" wasn't particularily independent about working.  She preferred to read the instructions and do it herself but needed me there in the same room or her brain wandered off. 

 

Also - if he is only doing regular school work four days a week, why not dedicate the fifth day to History and other things?  As for letting him study something interesting to him, that's pretty easy.  DD12 is starting a study on architecture this week.  I found some videos and books at the library and a few interesting web sites that talk about architects and buildings.  She hates writing, so she decided that the end result of this study will be to build a model of a building or bridge.  I am thinking gum drop and tooth picks right now, but maybe popsicle sticks or legos.  Its not an independent project at her age - more like a guided study, but it buys me some time to come up with the next thing.

 

 

[lots of little ducklings]

Sympathetic! My first grade DS is the same-- but honestly, I don't think "classical" is the problem. I think "boy" is the big issue. My younger DDs love seat work, and I always did too. DS most.definitely.does.not. This has stretched me big time but physical games and activities can convert a battle over a workbook into fun-- throw a nerf ball at the noun in the sentence on the white board; punch a pillow or do ninja moves while reciting words in memory work; complete reading on a cozy couch or bed instead of at the table. I can't eliminate aaaaaall seat work, but reducing it and shortening it has definitely helped. And I'm definitely still classical, just not "institutional." :-)

[AimeeM]

It doesn't work for everyone. *I* love the idea of classical education, but it was a disaster for my eldest; the literature heavy, history focused philosophy simply didn't speak to my classic lit hating, history hating, dyslexic daughter who is much more the mathy/STEM type (also, she's a creative soul). I ditched it with her and don't regret doing so.

 

Also, I do not know many 4th graders who can work independently on any large level.

[CookieMonster]

Are there any parts of the day that go well?  If so, what exactly are you doing?  When do things go bad?  For example, with my younger son, things can go really well or really poorly.  When we've gone through stages of things going poorly, I've analyzed exactly when the switch flips.  Triggers for my son have been:  too many worksheets, too much writing, too much repetition, resources that aren't engaging, etc.  What has helped:  eliminating worksheets, having me scribe, using a keyboard, using a whiteboard, doing more things orally, cutting down on unnecessary repetition, and finding resources that spark my son's interest.

 

What do you mean when you say he can't work independently?  What are you expecting him to do exactly?

 

Which part of the day goes well varies from day to day quite wildly.  One day he sits down and does Latin with no problem, the next day he throws a fit about it.  The rest of the week he does an average job of it.  Same story for every subject.  I have, since, Kindergarten, analyzed when the switch flips and adjusted accordingly.  One thing that sets him off is too much volume of work overall.  I cut back until he is not overwhelmed.  But, all the while I'm wondering when we will ever get to these important subjects we are skipping.  Any kind of writing has always set him off.  I have always modified this for him, while expecting him to continue to develop.  I watched a friend, ahead of me in homeschooling, let her son do everything oral because he hated to write.  She was waiting for the "he'll want to write eventually" moment that everyone said would come.  He's in High School next year and still cries about having to write something down on paper, because it is a struggle for him to do so.  I decided not to do that.  I made my son write, but not too much, and I expected improvement.  But, he still hates to write and is only neat if I stand over him.

Sometimes he throws a fit because he simply does not want to sit down and focus.  Sometimes he is upset because he has made grandiose plans for the day and hates how school is "interrupting" them.  But, then during breaks (think Christmas), he gets out of control because he doesn't have enough expected assignments.  Having some calms him down (overall).  It's a tricky balance.

 

Working independently means simply completing an assignment without me standing over him.  He's not ready to go to the next level and take material and educate himself.  This year I wanted more time in the day to work with his younger sister.  So I am trying to send him off to complete the written part of assignments on his own. But he still doesn't work independently. He doesn't read the directions for the written assignments, often does the wrong assignment because he didn't bother checking the assignment sheet, and it is all done sloppily.  He seems to want me to leave him alone and let him do it, but then he doesn't really do it.  And he's convinced correcting (or finishing!) incorrect (or incomplete) work is of the devil.

 

[Haiku]

Classical ed has not worked for my son, either. He has language processing delays, so the word-heavy, image-light focus of classical ed doesn't reach him. He struggles with reading, so he can't read the types of books TWTM recommends. He enjoys action and things that are straight to the point. He's a cut-the-fluff type of kid. After years of frustration and my son feeling like a failure, I decided that trying to force the square kid into the round hole was fruitless. I believe that a good education should challenge your weaknesses but also build upon your strengths, and trying to follow a WTM-style curriculum just meant my son was constantly bombarded with his weaknesses. I am making changes away from being WTM-focused, and my son is doing better and enjoying school (a bit) more.

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

He is in fourth grade this year, and we are still not getting to history.  STILL!  Because he cannot handle the extra work and still get imperative things like math done too.  We only do four days of each subject a week, because he cannot handle five.  Right now, those four-day-a-week subjects are Bible, Math, Latin, English, and Reading.  Science works out to about 2 days per week with all the breaks in the wonky schedule it came with. 

 

He is able to learn a lot, but usually needs twice as much repetition as an average student would need in order to retain concepts.

 

It is really important to me that my children have skills like writing, math, and reading.  Those are the very things he would rather not ever do. 

 

most people comment on how "smart" he is, but it is a big struggle for both of us for him to learn these things.

 

I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side.  But, that seems to lead nowhere.  He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests. 

 

He has all these ideas about building things or inventions, but doesn't have the skill-set to follow through with these things.

 

Sometimes he throws a fit because he simply does not want to sit down and focus.  Sometimes he is upset because he has made grandiose plans for the day and hates how school is "interrupting" them.  But, then during breaks (think Christmas), he gets out of control because he doesn't have enough expected assignments.  Having some calms him down (overall).  It's a tricky balance.  

He's not ready to go to the next level and take material and educate himself.

 

I do not have a lot of time now, but these are the things that stuck out to me.  

 

What are his strengths? Other people see him as smart, but WTM style school isn't playing to his strengths if it is a big struggle for an otherwise smart kid to have such a high level of frustration. So there, I agree with you, not even knowing what you are using. Speaking of which, LOL, what do you use? I have a kid like this (or two, we'll see...), and I tweak a lot. 

 

Creating a dichotomy between "extra work" and "imperative things" did not fly here. What you really have in a child's mind (especially this kind of child) is "boring work" and "interesting work." And so many people who post here seem to deprive their kids of the interesting (content!) work until they have done/mastered the boring (to many of this type of kid anyway) skill work. Yes it is more work for me here, but skill work had to be folded into content. There had to be a reason for learning it besides it's imperative, or good for you, or whatever other perfectly valid mom/teacher reason I had. LOL Maybe he needs twice as much repetition with the curricula you are currently using but would only need to hear it once with something else?  This is VERY true with one of my kids. If he is bored by something, he will not retain it. Oh, he might store it long enough to parrot it back to me, under duress. But retain it? No way, no how. But when taught this, that, or the other at the exact moment that it is needed, in the natural course of doing some content work that is very interesting to him, it is done and DONE. Learned and in the vault forever. But it has to be relevant for that to happen.

 

I would like to hear details about the kinds of "grandiose plans" he has. That is a sign of giftedness, I think. Any chance of ADD? Reading things like Superparenting for ADD and The Myth of ADD might be helpful for you.

 

(Just to be clear, my kids all do some mundane skill work. I would not let my kid do things orally until high school either! Oh my! But we do play to strengths here, and interest.)

 

ETA: Oh, and you say "I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side.  But, that seems to lead nowhere.  He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests." 

What I hear is that he has great ideas...grandiose, yes. But he still does not have the maturity or skill set to make them happen. This is where he needs scaffolding--your help and guidance with his interests. He would probably benefit enormously from thinking of his interests more as front and center and less as "side" items. Books like Learning to Learn and Smart But Scattered and, most of all, your step-by-step help are very helpful for building him up and keeping him on track. 

[Arcadia]

 

  He has all these ideas about building things or inventions, but doesn't have the skill-set to follow through with these things.

Give him a notebook and let him write or draw out his ideas.  Then sit him down and help him flesh out his ideas and work out a plan.  At most treat it as a writing lesson and project management lesson roll into one.

If writing is physically tiring, look into letting him type instead. If writing is mentally tiring, look into whether your son might like to use graphic organizers to help in the thought process.

[Alte Veste Academy]

But, all the while I'm wondering when we will ever get to these important subjects we are skipping.

 

Sometimes he throws a fit because he simply does not want to sit down and focus. Sometimes he is upset because he has made grandiose plans for the day and hates how school is "interrupting" them. But, then during breaks (think Christmas), he gets out of control because he doesn't have enough expected assignments. Having some calms him down (overall). It's a tricky balance.

 

Working independently means simply completing an assignment without me standing over him. He's not ready to go to the next level and take material and educate himself. This year I wanted more time in the day to work with his younger sister. So I am trying to send him off to complete the written part of assignments on his own. But he still doesn't work independently. He doesn't read the directions for the written assignments, often does the wrong assignment because he didn't bother checking the assignment sheet, and it is all done sloppily. He seems to want me to leave him alone and let him do it, but then he doesn't really do it. And he's convinced correcting (or finishing!) incorrect (or incomplete) work is of the devil.

 

Also, I think the bolded is normal—definitely for his age and maybe for his inherent nature and current level of executive function. He needs scaffolding for those skills.

 

When you say he hates the school interrupting his plans, I wonder if you have a regular schedule/routine. Are his days consistent? My oldest requires consistent hours, although what we do during those hours can be highly creative.

[MomatHWTK]

My ADHD/slow processing speed cannot stand writing heavy assignments.  Give him straight data and he's all good.  We continue to study math, but we don't do pages of practice problems.  I present grammar for informational purposes and even have him read grammar textbooks as his assigned reading, but I don't yet require output. I alternate the subjects we do daily and their order so that we have something I know everyone enjoys alternating with something more taxing.  I make sure my DS has lots of opportunities to learn through non-fiction books, videos, etc. so that his brain continues to get what it needs even if the output isn't there. 

 

So, I don't use the 'method' but I certainly learn a great deal about why type of content I would like my DS exposed to by reading the WTM information. 

[Pen]

...  English and math he struggles with, even though he is smart and capable.  He is able to learn a lot, but usually needs twice as much repetition as an average student would need in order to retain concepts.

 

... And it's not like he isn't learning anything, most people comment on how "smart" he is, but it is a big struggle for both of us for him to learn these things.

 

 

To me these comments raise a red flag that he may have a "learning disability" of some sort. You might want to post over in learning challenges section also. Has he ever had testing for LD's or related issues?

 

I taught him to read, against his will, because asking him to sit down for 20 minutes four days a week was not too much to ask, in my mind.  He still fought me all the way.  Now?  He using his un-asked-for tool all the time, with relish.  I know that school/learning is not all fun, because it is work, and work is not always fun - especially when it is hard.  But, the further we go with homeschooling, the more it feels like he truly dislikes school entirely.  I do not want him to look back on homeschooling with disgust.

 

I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side.  But, that seems to lead nowhere.  He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests.  He really would like to just play electronic games, watch tv, and play with his sisters or friends all day. 

 

You could turn some of this into learning...  Give him a budget for his interests led material, for example. Only allow electronic games as a reward for other work done, and only allow ones that are learning related themselves (math, typing and so on have games available). We do not have TV, but do use films a lot. I use many documentary films for history learning, for example. The Young Indiana Jones series has both fiction parts and non-fiction documentary parts. My son watched all the fiction at least once, and now at age 11 is watching the documentary parts that go with the fiction and then reseeing the fiction. I allow fiction movies at a time equal to how much nonfiction has been seen, more or less. And I order every 7th more or less selection from Netflix to be pure entertainment, while 6 out of 7 have some learning aspect even if they are fictional. For example, they might be a dramatized history, or classic literature such as Shakespeare, or Dickens.

 

 

I feel much too responsible for his future employment possibilities to just let him do that, as some have suggested to me.  He has all these ideas about building things or inventions, but doesn't have the skill-set to follow through with these things.

 

Contrast all of that with his younger sister.  She doesn't always love school stuff, but it's rarely a struggle.  Classical Ed is going swimmingly with her and she is retaining her knowledge.  The biggest problem she has is her older brother eating up all of mom's available time and leaving her with less education that she is capable of achieving.  This eating up of my time is a big issue.

 

I just don't know what to do.  I will continue pressing on and dealing with it, if it is what's best, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this hard.  Part of me wants to let him dive headlong into his varied and fleeting interests with no formal education, but I fear for those basic skills I feel he needs.  I cannot figure out how that would actually work.

 

Some people do that, but I did not feel it would be all right in my son's case--and if your son is struggling in math and English, not in his either. But I do think you can focus your time and efforts on his math and English and let him more loose on other things--but perhaps with a time amount that he has to do one way or another on his various school subjects. I agree that much can be done with going to library and letting a child get books on subjects of interest and read them.

 

Is his reading at grade/age level?

 

I'm not really sure what I'm actually asking here.  Hopefully someone can read through the lines for me.

 

 

Help?  Ideas?  Thoughts?

 

 

My biggest thought is that there is likely some LD that is causing the struggles, and that figuring that out would help all of you.

 

Probably classical ed is not the best fit for your son.  I also loved the theory of it, but found it did not fit my particular child well.

 

I'd work hard on the math and English skills and let him do much of what he likes (with budget considerations) for the other subjects.

 

Consider also audio learning for things like history, for example, SOTW audio if he can use audio to learn from, would give an overview of history from Nomads to Fall of USSR and get him "caught up" to 4th grade level at least basically (not the idea of special projects, narrations, timelines etc. but those may not fit his learning style). They can be listened to over and over.

 

Jumping all over the place and not hitting anything in depth would probably be typical for his age. If he gets a pile of books on a subject of interest, I'd let him follow that interest until tired of it, and then move on to something else. Same as you probably do when you get interested in something--you probably go into it until you feel satisfied and probably move on, unless you find something that is a life passion.

 

OTOH, math and English (for an English speaker) must simply get done, life passion or not. But what program you use may depend on what is going on with him in terms of his learning, and possible learning challenges.

[Pen]

...

 

Creating a dichotomy between "extra work" and "imperative things" did not fly here. What you really have in a child's mind (especially this kind of child) is "boring work" and "interesting work." And so many people who post here seem to deprive their kids of the interesting (content!) work until they have done/mastered the boring (to many of this type of kid anyway) skill work.

 

My post probably sounds like I am one of the dichotomy people.  Yet I agree with trying to make all of it "interesting work", and also  agree with the folding in skills with content when possible to do that.  But sometimes, at least for us, it just is not. Not every bit of school is interesting, except as one might train oneself to find all of life interesting.  We are finding that spelling can be folded into interesting writing, or foreign language, and gets remembered that way. While spelling programs per se were useless, for example. And ditto for grammar in my son's case. However, in his case, all the math that came with cooking and building and so on, simply was not enough to give him the practice needed to get certain areas he needed. A workbook simply worked better in that case, for us, though so also did keeping in mind his audio-visual learning style and using some DVD's. Have you really been able to fold all skill work into content? 

 

Yes it is more work for me here, but skill work had to be folded into content. There had to be a reason for learning it besides it's imperative, or good for you, or whatever other perfectly valid mom/teacher reason I had. LOL Maybe he needs twice as much repetition with the curricula you are currently using but would only need to hear it once with something else?  This is VERY true with one of my kids. If he is bored by something, he will not retain it. Oh, he might store it long enough to parrot it back to me, under duress. But retain it? No way, no how. But when taught this, that, or the other at the exact moment that it is needed, in the natural course of doing some content work that is very interesting to him, it is done and DONE. Learned and in the vault forever. But it has to be relevant for that to happen.

 

For my son it is true that if he is not interested or learning under duress, he will not retain something. But whether or not he will retain something when he has heard it just once along with something else of interest is only true sometimes--and alas, rarely with the things I consider important for long term retention. It is rarely true for math for him, or for languages which seem to require repetition. This apparently is different for your child, and might be different for OP's son, but I think children who learn skill areas with a single repetition are probably in the minority.

 

...

ETA: Oh, and you say "I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side.  But, that seems to lead nowhere.  He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests." 

What I hear is that he has great ideas...grandiose, yes. But he still does not have the maturity or skill set to make them happen. This is where he needs scaffolding--your help and guidance with his interests. He would probably benefit enormously from thinking of his interests more as front and center and less as "side" items. Books like Learning to Learn and Smart But Scattered and, most of all, your step-by-step help are very helpful for building him up and keeping him on track. 

 

I guess more information from OP on this would be helpful. I interpreted this as normal 4th grade boy both jumping around and wanting to invent this or that... not necessarily so jumpy as to be utterly useless ... and not where the inventions could probably be made a reality if mom would but scaffold for him. Hence my idea to let him run more with his interests, jumpy though they may be.  But it may be that they are so jumpy and ADD that he does need his mom to help him learn to follow through and focus  more, and / or scaffold other learning onto them more. I think seeing the different interpretations shows that there is not enough specific information to go on in giving back suggestions.

 

One addition I thought of in regard to interesting vs. boring is that the TV and computer/electronic games may render most of school both effortful and unexciting by comparison, and one step OP may have to take is to cut down or eliminate those. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Or, at least, that's how it feels.  Maybe I just need to hear that I'm normal.  But, maybe I need to do something drastically different.

 

I'm tired of the "I don't like school" comments.  I'm frustrated that I spent TIME and energy teaching him grammar, etc. that he simply doesn't care to remember.  He is good about dutifully doing what I say is imperative, but he doesn't like it, it isn't sticking, and I can tell he feels frustrated.  (Honestly, he's good about dutifully doing it only after he throws fits - and sometimes cries.)

 

He still cannot work independently,

 

Mine weren't working independently at that age.  Besides, independently doesn't mean totally independent. Can you explain the directions and demonstrate how to do a simple assignment and then have him work on his own beside you until that one task is completed?  Sometimes they need you to draw their attention back to it once or twice while they work on it, so have him int eh room with you or in a nearby one where you can see if he's on task or not.

 

at least not with the traditional and classical materials I've been using.  He skips things,

 

It's normal for elementary aged kids to skip over things.  That's why I have mine do a certain amount of say, copy work (a few lines) and then I check it.  Sometimes they ski[p over math problems now and then.  I point it out at first and send them back to finish it before I check it and give them feedback.  When they get a little older and I send them to do something and they hand it back to me, I say, "Did you check it over to make sure you didn't miss anything?"  Sometimes they did but if they didn't, it's a reminder to do it now.

 

doesn't follow directions, and is not neat. 

 

How have you been teaching him to follow directions?  Do you assume that because he can read he will know how to follow the directions?  I explicitly teach mine to read them out loud to me.  Then I ask them what they think it means.  I'm old enough to know some curriculum, products and procedures come with badly written directions, so they may not be written as as clearly as I would expect them to be. Then I have my child describe to me the examples given.  I ask open ended and specific questions like, "What did they do in this example?"  Why did they do it that way?" "What did they do next?" "What is being demonstrated here?" and other more specific questions depending on the content covered.  Do not expect a child to do this on his/her own as a habit.   Most adults don't.

 

Little boys develop fine motor skills for handwriting later than girls do. Are you giving a lot of volume?  Maybe shorter assignments with higher standards will do the job more effectively. What do you do when it's not neat?  I hand it back to my child and insist it's redone.  My youngest now has a record of redoing an assignment 4 times until it was neat.  If I just complain about it but accept the work, she'll know I don't really want to bother about it.  If she knows she'll have to keep doing it until it's done right, she's motivated to do better.  Some days she's more contentious than others. That's just what kids do. It's not like they learn to be neat and never do anything sloppy again.  How many times did we have to teach them to say please and thank you?  A lot. Do they remember better sometimes and worse other times? Yes.

 

I have worked really hard to help him.  I tweak his work load every year to what he can handle without major blowups (hidden frustration manifesting itself).  He is in fourth grade this year, and we are still not getting to history.  STILL! 

 

Most of us who begin history do it with SOTW as a read loud beginning when our children are 6-most aren't reading on their own then.   If you haven't gotten to it, then you haven't gotten to it.  You can read aloud a SOTW chapter in less than 15 minutes and have your child narrate it back with prompting questions in a few minutes.  Whether you turn that into copywork or not is up to you, but I don't know many people who have children do history entirely independently.

 

Because he cannot handle the extra work and still get imperative things like math done too. 

 

I don't understand.  How do you assign math?  Some people assign a lesson and some assign a certain amount of time (like 30-45 minutes.) No child struggling is ready to do it independently.  Independence is usually worked up to over time.  First mom explains and demonstrates with the child until the child gets it.   Then mom has the child read the directions for the assignment aloud and asks the child to observe and explain the examples.  If the child can't, then more teaching needs to happen before assigning practice problems.  If the child can, then (s)he works near by with mom keeping an eye out to make sure the child is on task.  A child who can't get it done in 15-20 minutes is probably not understanding it enough or is being given too much in one assignment.  Have the child work at it for a specific period of time and pick back up there tomorrow.  If a child has truly mastered the material, there's no sense in assigning more of it.  It's time to move to the next things.

 

We only do four days of each subject a week, because he cannot handle five.  Right now, those four-day-a-week subjects are Bible, Math, Latin, English, and Reading.  Science works out to about 2 days per week with all the breaks in the wonky schedule it came with.  Bible is an easy subject and only 15 minutes.  Latin is Latina Christiana I, with his 2nd grade sister, and it seems easy for him.  English and math he struggles with, even though he is smart and capable.  He is able to learn a lot, but usually needs twice as much repetition as an average student would need in order to retain concepts.

 

So?  If he needs double the repetition he needs double the repetition.  I had a child who learned to read fluently by age 5.  She never needed repetition at all.  I had another one who needed to start later and repeat more than other children her age did on average. Maybe he'd get it faster with a different approach or maybe he just needs more repetition.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Children are unique.

 

This child is challenging all my cherished notions about how best to educate a child.  When read the Well Trained Mind I fell in love.  I've tried to implement it with my son, making modifications for his... quirks... and it doesn't seem to be working well.  I here readily admit that I'm upset that it just isn't working.  It is really important to me that my children have skills like writing, math, and reading.  Those are the very things he would rather not ever do.  And it's not like he isn't learning anything, most people comment on how "smart" he is, but it is a big struggle for both of us for him to learn these things.

 

I taught him to read, against his will, because asking him to sit down for 20 minutes four days a week was not too much to ask, in my mind.  He still fought me all the way. 

 

I wouldn't recommend teaching a child to read in 20 minute solid blocks in early elementary school.  I recommend 3 different 5-10 minute sessions through out the day for quite a while. Attention spans are developed over time. It's an unusual child that can sit for that long and focus in the very early years unless they were naturally inclined to longer sessions.  Then I would make the sessions longer later over a longer period of time.

 

Now?  He using his un-asked-for tool all the time, with relish.  I know that school/learning is not all fun, because it is work, and work is not always fun - especially when it is hard.  But, the further we go with homeschooling, the more it feels like he truly dislikes school entirely.  I do not want him to look back on homeschooling with disgust.

 

What exactly are you doing for English and Math?

 

I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side.  But, that seems to lead nowhere.  He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth,

 

This would be very normal behavior in child Jr. High aged and younger.

 

 

or has really expensive interests.  He really would like to just play electronic games, watch tv, and play with his sisters or friends all day.  I feel much too responsible for his future employment possibilities to just let him do that, as some have suggested to me.

 

Really? Who is suggesting that play time for a 4th grader is inhibiting his potential as a future employee? It's perfectly normal for a boy his age to want to play all day, but it's not up to him, now is it?  I have school time for my kids, chore time, play time and free time at that age.  As long as he's getting a good balance, I think worries about his future employment are premature.

 

  He has all these ideas about building things or inventions, but doesn't have the skill-set to follow through with these things.

 

Of course not, he's a little kid.  So, you begin at the beginning. He may just need a sampler platter right now, not a full meal in some new type of exotic food. He needs legos and maybe K'nex or another construction set.   He may need a small tool set (hammer, saw, saw table, nails, screws, screw driver, spare wood,e tc.) and someone to show him how to use each of them.  He needs books about how things work.  He needs to read accounts of inventors and how they did what they did. He needs to practice following directions for simple projects with simple directions.  Then after he has mastered them, he needs intermediate level projects.  Then, later he needs advanced projects. Don't expect him to move to inventing (doing something no one has ever done before) at this stage of his life.  He needs to learn about physics and different types of engineering in fun, age appropriate ways.  He may say at he's interested in inventing right now and maybe he is, but that could change tomorrow.  Saying he's interested inventing things is not a command from the voice God or anything.  Maybe he just likes gadgets.  If he doesn't move to actually inventing things it's not a failure.

 

I didn't start by designing my own quilts.  I started learning basic sewing skills, then basic quilting skills, then intermediate ones and then advanced ones.  It wasn't a steady progression.  I didn't learn at a steady rate, there were peaks and plateaus-that's how humans lean.

 

Be very careful about extrapolating everything at this season in his life out to some sort of prediction of his future.  If you do, you'll create undue stress and resentment on both your parts. Meet homeschoolers who do different forms of Classical Education and get ideas from them.  Read about others ways of doing it.  Again, TWTM is an example of one way someone once did it-not a command from God Almighty or the template by which every child must be educated.  Did you look into other options before you decided on Trivium Education?  If not, read some Charlotte Mason, A Thomas Jefferson Education, and other versions of Classical Education for ideas. Pick and choose, modify and adapt as needed when it comes to Classical Education, homeschooling parenting, living, etc.

 

 

Contrast all of that with his younger sister.  She doesn't always love school stuff, but it's rarely a struggle.  Classical Ed is going swimmingly with her and she is retaining her knowledge.  The biggest problem she has is her older brother eating up all of mom's available time and leaving her with less education that she is capable of achieving.  This eating up of my time is a big issue.

 

Wow.  How is teaching your son what he needs to know "eating up your time?"  That's a metaphore with negative connotations. I would strongly caution you right now to stop comparing your children's abilities in academics, interests and life skills  to each other. If you've done this out loud to him you need to apologize and reassure him you won't do it again.

 

You are aware there are families with lots of kids (most of mine have 4-12) who manage to work with each child as needed without being upset by it "eating up their time." Are you expecting it to not take up your time?  Do you have some rigid idea of exactly how much of your time he is allotted for each task and if he exceeds it there's something wrong with him, Classical Education or homeschooling in general?  This is homeschool, may of us specifically chose it to break away from that unfair structure in ps.  Not every child learns at the same things at the same rate at the same age-that's not a negative reflection on the child, it's a negative reflection on mass-production educational environments. 

 

I just don't know what to do.  I will continue pressing on and dealing with it, if it is what's best, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this hard.  Part of me wants to let him dive headlong into his varied and fleeting interests with no formal education, but I fear for those basic skills I feel he needs.  I cannot figure out how that would actually work.

 

It's not all or nothing. It's not all interest driven or no interest driven.  It's not all done a certain pace or nothing done at a certain pace.  It's not all completely independent.  It takes progressive stages to get there.  Work on the progression.

 

Start with the subjects he needs more of your  help on in English and Math, let him get other things done and in his free time he can pursue his interests. You can assign part of the day, a day per week, or another segment of time like between Thanksgiving and New Year's for him to do his own thing. 

 

When he needs more of your help make sure you're explaining and demonstrating each concept and have him do it with you until he has a good solid grasp of it.  Then, give him an assignment practicing those specific concepts following the reading directions and observing and articulating them.  Then let him work on it nearby making sure he's on task.  He should be encouraged to ask questions too-that's how people learn.  If you've done the above mentioned, he shouldn't be bombarding you will questions-just a few for clarification and such.

 

He shouldn't be working on it for more than 20 or 30  minutes or so.  If it takes longer and he was on task, then get back to it tomorrow when he's put in the 20-30 minutes.  Don't worry about someone's schedule for completing work.  Don't worry about volume.  Worry about demonstrating and understanding. If he moves on without understanding and mastery just to suit some made up schedule, he'll be set up for failure in the future.  Slow and steady is better than fast and uncertain.

 

If he can explain and complete one assignment in the same room on his own regularly then work on giving him 2 assignments.  Make him explain the directions to you before he leaves leaves the other side of the room to complete them.  When that's going well, give him more or a whole day's worth.  If he has that going well most of the time, try letting him leave the room to do them.  If it doesn't work, bring him back in until he has a chance to mature a bit more.  Maturity doesn't come all at once.

 

While he's doing his assignment nearby work with another child one on one. If he is just completely stuck then he can read a high quality reading assignment or do a posted chore from his chore chart while you're working with another child.  

 

 

I'm not really sure what I'm actually asking here.  Hopefully someone can read through the lines for me.

 

 

Help?  Ideas?  Thoughts?

 

Look up threads about working with larger numbers of kids or large differences in ages/ability. Look up threads on increasing independence. 

 

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Creating a dichotomy between "extra work" and "imperative things" did not fly here. What you really have in a child's mind (especially this kind of child) is "boring work" and "interesting work." And so many people who post here seem to deprive their kids of the interesting (content!) work until they have done/mastered the boring (to many of this type of kid anyway) skill work.

My post probably sounds like I am one of the dichotomy people. Yet I agree with trying to make all of it "interesting work", and also agree with the folding in skills with content when possible to do that. But sometimes, at least for us, it just is not. Not every bit of school is interesting, except as one might train oneself to find all of life interesting. We are finding that spelling can be folded into interesting writing, or foreign language, and gets remembered that way. While spelling programs per se were useless, for example. And ditto for grammar in my son's case. However, in his case, all the math that came with cooking and building and so on, simply was not enough to give him the practice needed to get certain areas he needed. A workbook simply worked better in that case, for us, though so also did keeping in mind his audio-visual learning style and using some DVD's. Have you really been able to fold all skill work into content?

Yes it is more work for me here, but skill work had to be folded into content. There had to be a reason for learning it besides it's imperative, or good for you, or whatever other perfectly valid mom/teacher reason I had. LOL Maybe he needs twice as much repetition with the curricula you are currently using but would only need to hear it once with something else? This is VERY true with one of my kids. If he is bored by something, he will not retain it. Oh, he might store it long enough to parrot it back to me, under duress. But retain it? No way, no how. But when taught this, that, or the other at the exact moment that it is needed, in the natural course of doing some content work that is very interesting to him, it is done and DONE. Learned and in the vault forever. But it has to be relevant for that to happen.

For my son it is true that if he is not interested or learning under duress, he will not retain something. But whether or not he will retain something when he has heard it just once along with something else of interest is only true sometimes--and alas, rarely with the things I consider important for long term retention. It is rarely true for math for him, or for languages which seem to require repetition. This apparently is different for your child, and might be different for OP's son, but I think children who learn skill areas with a single repetition are probably in the minority.

...

ETA: Oh, and you say "I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side. But, that seems to lead nowhere. He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests."

What I hear is that he has great ideas...grandiose, yes. But he still does not have the maturity or skill set to make them happen. This is where he needs scaffolding--your help and guidance with his interests. He would probably benefit enormously from thinking of his interests more as front and center and less as "side" items. Books like Learning to Learn and Smart But Scattered and, most of all, your step-by-step help are very helpful for building him up and keeping him on track.

I guess more information from OP on this would be helpful. I interpreted this as normal 4th grade boy both jumping around and wanting to invent this or that... not necessarily so jumpy as to be utterly useless ... and not where the inventions could probably be made a reality if mom would but scaffold for him. Hence my idea to let him run more with his interests, jumpy though they may be. But it may be that they are so jumpy and ADD that he does need his mom to help him learn to follow through and focus more, and / or scaffold other learning onto them more. I think seeing the different interpretations shows that there is not enough specific information to go on in giving back suggestions.

No, I have never attempted to fold every last bit of skill work in with content. Every type of skill work? Yes. Every exercise, as in every single problem they do? Good heavens, no. That would make me -----> :willy_nilly:

 

I agree that repetition in skill subjects is necessary for most kids. Obviously how much repetition is necessary will depend on the individual child. My three all have variable degrees of retaining skills and knowledge for different subjects, different types of input, output, etc. When I talk about folding skill in with content, I also mean when possible, but also to whatever degree is necessary or helpful for each child. I brought up skill vs content work in my response to the OP specifically because she stated that they were not getting to "interesting" work because of the time being taken up by the "imperative" work. For a certain kind of kid (a creative kind of kid, of the type that does have grandiose ideas on a regular basis, LOL), that can be soul crushing, boring to the point that frustration builds and nothing gets learned, let alone retained.

 

So, no, not every little bit of skill work can be folded in with content. But a lot of it can. I would argue that if you have a disengaged kid who is not buying-in to his own education, setting aside skill work for a while in favor of reigniting passion with "interesting" work can help get you that buy in. I've said before that my kids (even my formerly resistant oldest) do a good deal of banal work (more here than people would probably believe after reading all my posts about skill in content, LOL) precisely because we have achieved buy-in. They have seen the links and their interests are honored. Because we are going beyond the "imperative" skill work, they trust that when I hand them something banal that is skill oriented, there is a purpose for that, and it is not the all-consuming emphasis of their days.

[CookieMonster]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies, Ladies.  I certainly have a lot to mull over here.  TaratheLiberator, I would love to hear more about what you did, as your situation rings a bell with me.

 

We absolutely have a consistent schedule.  We have always had to have a consistent routine with him.  He has input in the schedule (since I know that will be the next suggestion) and agrees to it.  Right now he does "sit down school" for 3.5 hours Mon and Tue, 2.5 hours Wed, and 1 hour Thr.  The rest of Thursday is for field trips. That is all the schooling in one week he can handle.

 

I would love to scaffold his ideas as suggested, but don't have much experience in that area.  I'll look into the mentioned books.

 

I wish I could claim giftedness in the aforementioned 'grandiose' ideas, but I would be overselling the situation.  He simply wakes up some mornings with a whole list of planned activities.  I would love to just let school go for the day, and let him pursue his sudden desire to play elaborate games with his cars, but we've tried that and it leads to disaster.  The next day, when it's time to get back to school he balks and ends up blowing up about school.  For the next three weeks he will try every day to get out of school work and throw some kind of fit about not being able to skip it.

 

I'm sorry I don't have time to answer all the comments on my situation.

 

[birchbark]

Since folding skills into content subjects was mentioned, I thought I'd give my perspective on that. We did it that way for a few years with my oldest DS. I thought it was a brilliant approach at first. But my DS, like most boys, hated writing. He was bright, and interested in many subjects, but when he was required to write in every subject he quickly learned to hate school. 

 

I'm a firm believer in writing practice so I didn't let him just skip it completely, but I learned to isolate those skill subjects to just one block in our schedule. This way he could spend the rest of the schoolday immersed in more interesting learning without "assignments" to spoil it. Some may worry about retention, but I didn't notice a difference either way. I believe just a little skill work every day will have better results than longer assignments that are less frequent. 

 

I would also recommend wearing out your DS before attempting school. :)  And no screens during the schoolweek.

 

Hunter makes a good point about teaching the character that kids need in school, in a context other than school. Like utilizing chores, sports, family life, etc, to train in areas such as following directions, neatness, and responsibility. 

 

And remember that there is more than one way to do "classical." You may be interested in this article by the Bluedorns, who are classical educators, about things to focus on before age 10. It is surprisingly un-academic. ETA: Here is a more succinct version.

 

And this classic audio by Andrew Pudewa is excellent as well: http://iew.com/shop/products/teaching-boys-other-children-who-would-rather-make-forts-all-day-audio-download

[aelllc]

Some thoughts I had:

 

A) Make sure your son gets plenty of run around time before and after assignments.  Intersperse hard subjects with something easy, fun, yet still educational to give him something to look forward to.  For instance after math, we will draw a castle, or read a story about Marco Polo...

 

B) Combine subjects amongst your kids where possible, so both of them at the same time can be getting your attention.  When I teach math, I will work on one section with one dchild and then have them work alone while I spend a few minutes with the other child.  It helps keep the pace moving, yet gives them small increments of time to work independently as well.  He will learn independence by giving him small specific chunks of assignments, one section of math, part 1 of grammar, etc.. 

 

C) Do not worry to much about what you are not getting to, incorporate it into his play time (many board games are great to practice math or spelling skills with, or do a craft project, or act out a Bible story), or as you drive( listen to Jim Weiss audiobooks, Classical Conversations audio cds, quiz your kids on random math facts or States and Capitols,) , or when you read a bedtime story(pick library books from the science or history section).  Kids can pick up a lot through some gently guided play time.  Buy him science kits and do those with him, then have sit and write up with him an experiment write -up.  After listening to an audio story or picture book, have him narrate back to you.  You write it down and then have him copy a sentence from it, gradually working up to the full story.  Have him point out the nouns on one page of a picture book or the punctuation.  At random during the day give him real life word problems for him to talk through with you and solve. 

 

There are a lot of ways kids learn, don't be afraid to change things up a bit and keep him on his toes! 

[MomatHWTK]

I guess I should mention that Ds also has an Asperger's diagnosis- that contributes to his rigidity in rejecting changes, etc.  If we don't 'do' some school every day I have a very hard time getting him back to it.  I have just expanded the definition of 'school'.  ;)

[Haiku]

TaratheLiberator, I would love to hear more about what you did, as your situation rings a bell with me.

 

For us, it has been a gradual process of me coming to realize that my son is different from my daughter and needs different things. As much as I would like to believe I am a free spirit who goes with the flow, in reality I like to have a list and directions on where the flow is going. So it took me several years to see that my highly academic daughter and my highly extroverted, physical son would thrive on different approaches. 

 

The first thing I did was ditch WWE. My son was getting absolutely nothing from it. Years of diligent copywork produced, literally, nothing. My son could not, and still cannot, copy a sentence with no errors. I started using Dancing Bears for reading remediation, and that worked well for him, although it took longer to get through it than "they" said it would. We just finished it up in the fall, and ds is in 5th grade. I also started using Apples and Pears, which is for dyslexic kids, for spelling. Again, he is making progress with it, although that progress is slower than I expected it would be. There is some copying and dictation in A&P. He actually does better with the dictation than he does with the copying. I am not sure what ds sees when he looks at a page of print, but I know it's not what I see. Also, my son can give me decent oral narrations, but he is still struggling with the basics of the mechanics of writing. I stopped tying his narrations to writing in any way. He doesn't write or copy them, I don't write them. It was giving my son anxiety when he knew that giving a "good" narration would result in the detested and difficult task of turning it into something written. I came to realize that my son was being held back in the content subjects because his writing skills and handwriting were so poor, and I didn't want that for him. I would rather focus on his understanding of content subjects divorced from the need to write, at this point in time, anyway.

 

I bought a writing curriculum that focuses on mechanics and not on imitation. He is currently using Writing Skills from EPS. He's also using their Ridgewood Grammar. He is behind in both subjects but is making progress.

 

The next thing I did was switch to Teaching Textbooks for math even though the math gurus love to hate it. The multi-media approach really works for my son. Hearing + seeing combined helps him a lot. "They" would say that he is behind in math because he is in 5th grade and doing TT5, but what I am concerned with is that he learns how to do math, not that he learns it quickly. I don't worry about the fact that he gets two chances to get the answer right in TT; if he gets an answer wrong, he has to go back and figure out what he did wrong, and that, to me, is a valuable exercise in itself. He usually gets the right answer the second time. I don't worry about what his "grade" is in math. I just check for steady progress and an understanding of what he is learning.

 

I stopped worrying about getting school done by a certain time each day. Making my son feel like we had a tight schedule was not good for him. He felt pressured not to "hold us back" by taking his time or asking questions. We now meander through our day much more than we used to. The kids have less free time after school but the whole day feels more relaxed. 

 

I am in the process of abandoning the history and science rotations. There are many things that both my kids are interested in that don't fit neatly into those rotations, and I hated telling them "maybe later" when they asked to study them. We are moving to interest-led history and science, which I believe will help my son be more engaged in what he is learning and feel less like school is a series of things he has to "get through." I have also purchased or acquired more multi-sensory programs for these subjects. Instead of reading and writing being the main focus of these studies, I will be utilizing more project-based curricula. This will be a stretch for me, as I don't like projects. We will be using Ellen McHenry materials for some of science, and I bought a Project Passport from Homeschool in the Woods for history. We will also be watching more documentaries and videos from YouTube/Education Portal, etc. My son gets more from visual stimulation than he does from listening to text being read.

 

HTH!

[Haiku]

I'd also like to add two things: at my husband's urging, and against my instincts, we allowed my son to begin playing video games. (Actually, my dh started allowing it while I was out of the country for a month and informed me of it afterward. ;) ) The kids have access to my dh's old Nintendo 64, and they have a few cartridge games he still had or that they have bought at second-hand stores. My son likes to play NHL94 and some football game as well as Zelda, and my dd is playing Zelda and Pokemon Stadium. My husband's rationale was that we are a highly academic family, and we tend to have very academic, nerdy pastimes. My son is not so academic, and my husband felt that, aside from hockey and riding his bike, my son didn't really have any "chill" freetime activities to work on. He wanted my son to have something that they could do together that my son found enjoyable and not work of any sort. I have actually found that if I do let my son play a limited amount of video games, he is more pliable about school. It's like he got his "fun tank" filled and is now willing to do some work. Also, the reading necessary for Zelda has been good for him, as has the problem-solving.

 

Because my son was enjoying the gaming so much, I signed the kids up for a game-based intro to programming class. My son is LOVING it. It is testing his ability to focus on detail and follow directions, and my dd is helping him when he needs help, so it's not me once again stepping in and teaching him something that might otherwise be fun if it weren't viewed as Mom-based school.

[kbutton]

As other posters have stated, I also see signs of a potential learning or developmental issue (or maybe just a mismatch in learning preferences/styles). My son was very resistance to schoolwork due to high anxiety. He didn't look or act worried, but his anxiety levels were really high. He has a diagnosis that reflects that, but you might consider whether or not anxiety is behind some of this stuff. My son avoided work, overloaded quickly, had tantrums, fussed about work that was well within his abilities, wasted time, and tried to be controlling. It turns out that most of it goes along with anxiety.

[Soror]

 

I stopped worrying about getting school done by a certain time each day. Making my son feel like we had a tight schedule was not good for him. He felt pressured not to "hold us back" by taking his time or asking questions. We now meander through our day much more than we used to. The kids have less free time after school but the whole day feels more relaxed. 

 

I am in the process of abandoning the history and science rotations. There are many things that both my kids are interested in that don't fit neatly into those rotations, and I hated telling them "maybe later" when they asked to study them. We are moving to interest-led history and science, which I believe will help my son be more engaged in what he is learning and feel less like school is a series of things he has to "get through." I have also purchased or acquired more multi-sensory programs for these subjects. Instead of reading and writing being the main focus of these studies, I will be utilizing more project-based curricula. This will be a stretch for me, as I don't like projects. We will be using Ellen McHenry materials for some of science, and I bought a Project Passport from Homeschool in the Woods for history. We will also be watching more documentaries and videos from YouTube/Education Portal, etc. My son gets more from visual stimulation than he does from listening to text being read.

 

HTH!

We do similarly here on some things. My son is able to take a lot higher input than output and a lot of traditional output just doesn't work, period. Well, I could make it work if my goal was for him to hate school. Tieing content in w/ skills is not/would not work, at least not at this point. 

 

Ds is not big on traditional school type projects but he does like multi-media type exposure. He loves anything that is a story and learns very well w/ working together w/ me approaching things from a variety of ways.

 

OP, I think the biggest thing is to listen to your own instincts and YOUR child. What works for one kid is not going to work for all kids. Listen to what resonates, try it out but feel free to drop it if it doesn't work. There are many approaches, you don't have to feel guilt if one doesn't fit your family. 

 

I tried a few different changes this year in *how* we do things and it just didn't work at all. I let myself wallow in that a bit and I'm sure there was thread accompanying this, as I like to think through things out loud and this forum is my only place to do so. 

 

Anyway, I had to step back and think about our goals, not anyone elses, and what was working to meet those goals. I want ds to be a life-long learner and I want it to be an organic part of our day but I also feel that there must be steady progression of skills and I'm ok w/ using a structured curriculum for these subjects. 

 

How it looks like here:

It works better to do big chunks of content at one time, use a variety of medias, lots of reading, discussion and encouraging his natural curiosity.

 

In skills we work together. I look for novel and different ways to introduce things multiple times to help w/ fluency and retention. 

 

Science and History- I'm loosely, very very loosely using SoTW and Noeo, these are more anchors than spines. Something to help pull us back in when we finish a rabbit trail. 

 

We start w/ some reading and then we look for little videos or documentaries, hands-on activities we can do or ds can do on his own, I encourage ds to search youtube or online when he is interested and wants to learn or do something and try and try to facilitate this. We have a TON of discussion, that is our primary output. I look for books that I have and library books to tie in various ways. I don't spend a ton of time planning this all out right now as I have found that doesn't work well at this point as our interests change. Instead we read and then I might do a quick search on whatever caught our interest. For example when we read about India I did a youtube search on the Buddhist caves and watched a few videos about how they were made, the science behind it and the religion. 

 

In our skills narrative programs work well for ds, so MCT, for example, is fabulous. WR has been wonderful, WWE has worked as well. RS math worked well when he was younger b/c there was a lot of hands-on  and oral work. BA worked b/c it was narrative. RS has stopped working so much now and BA isn't the perfect fit as it is mastery, so we are working on figuring that out here. 

 

Then again kids change, life changes and expectations change so we what works now won't necessarily always work. 

 

Personally, I think classical ed, as defined by SWB resonates so well for so many of us moms because it aligns w/ how we think now as adults. I think in practice w/ real-life kids, especially boys, it is better in theory than in practice. 

 

eta- I would also explore various issues that can cause learning differences/ difficulties. There are many different things and how they affect different kids can also vary. My son was recently diagnosed as severely ADHD. How that primarily affects us is his deficits in working memory and slower processing speed relative to intelligence. The difficulty w/ attention necessitates more interest and novelty to keep interest and engagement. He needs more repetition for fluency as his working memory and executive function is poor I need to help provide that support for success at this point, which is why working in tandem works really well. Timing anything is very, very detrimental and stressful for him, so we have avoided this for the most part and knowing now that it is a needed and recognized accomodation I am being even more diligent to avoid timed work. He finds stories very engaging so encorporating books and stories into our work is vital to his engagement and enjoyment.

[Haiku]

Personally, I think classical ed, as defined by SWB resonates so well for so many of us moms because it aligns w/ how we think now as adults. I think in practice w/ real-life kids, especially boys, it is better in theory than in practice. 

 

After I wrote out my big post this morning, I got in the shower, and one of the things that I was thinking about while showering was, "I wish that TWTM spent more time discussing the fact that girls and boys often learn very differently and need different things." There is not much acknowledgement in the book that kids, especially boys, will not meet the benchmarks that the book lays out at the time the books assumes the kids will be there, and that can be a major cause of (unfounded, imo) anxiety.

 

Had we followed TWTM's ideas on what you need to accomplish before you start 1st grade, my son would have been 10 before we started!

[Pen]

...

 

We absolutely have a consistent schedule.  We have always had to have a consistent routine with him.  He has input in the schedule (since I know that will be the next suggestion) and agrees to it.  Right now he does "sit down school" for 3.5 hours Mon and Tue, 2.5 hours Wed, and 1 hour Thr.  The rest of Thursday is for field trips. That is all the schooling in one week he can handle.

...

Questions and thoughts:

 

Is he a typical 9 or barely 10 year old 4th grader?

 

10.5 hours per week of school time is obviously low, though I assume that field trips are educational ones and give some learning too? If so, how many hours, and is there any other time that isn't "sit down" but that has a lot of learning in it?

 

If that is all the schooling he is doing, then I think that it is going to be very hard to have him at typical grade level work no matter whether you are doing "classical" or some other system. And even more so if he tends to take twice as long as average to learn the same amount of material as other children seem to take. It may be that frustration is driving lack of tolerance for school, which is causing it to be even harder and more frustrating in a downward spiral. Someone said not to compare him to his younger sister, but the reality is that even if you never say a thing, it must be obvious to him that she is able to do schoolwork more easily than he can. 

 

Again, a lot of this to me raises red flags for some learning challenge (or perhaps more than one), be that something like dyslexia, or ADD, or memory processing issues. The sort of distress and despair about whether one's child will be able to manage in the world, is to me, commonplace amongst moms/parents who have children with such challenges, especially before diagnosis has been made and a path toward the future worked out.

 

Can he get more of his needed schooling done without sitting down for it? Could he, say, be jogging  while listening to an audio tape or or on an exercise bike while reading a book? Could he use computer games like typing instructor for kids  to learn typing and thus be heading on the way to solving the neat writing problem?

 

What is his reading level? Does he read beyond the above "sit down school" times or is reading part of that?

 

What is his math level? How much of the above times given goes to math?

 

Of the above "sit down" times, how much is spent on what?

 

Could you use Wednesdays for field trips such that it acted as time off and thus could allow school more effectively on both Thursdays and Fridays?

 

Might it make sense to have him go to a brick and mortar school for a while? ( I am very pro homeschool, but it may not always be best for everyone all the time. Maybe he could handle that better--or if not, maybe it could give some help to figure out what is going on with him since it would be clear that it is not just "classical ed" or homeschool that is not seeming to work for him at this time. And it would give time to work more with the other child whom you say needs more of your time.)

 

ETA: I'm having a hard time figuring out how the time is allocated fitting the above post in with your first one.

 

If he does Bible 15 minutes 4 days per week, then on Thursday that leaves 45 minutes for all the other 4 day per week subjects of math, Latin, reading, and whatever else you mentioned. That is not much time per each of those subjects.  ????

 

I am also confused about his reading. If he has learned to read and enjoys it, does he need reading to be part of the 4 day per week subjects, or can't it be how he now gets to use reading to learn other subjects like history? If he is not yet reading well in English, then that needs to be addressed, and in my mind takes priority above things like Latin.

 

Might it be that 3.5 hours on the first 2 days is too much of whatever it is and causing burn out for the next several days? Would a more consistent pacing each week day make more sense? What about some limited time on the weekends? Are there activities that are causing difficulties (such as my son had a night time sports class and the next day was invariably too tired to do schoolwork). 

[Pen]

... Maybe I just need to hear that I'm normal.  But, maybe I need to do something drastically different.

 

I'm tired of the "I don't like school" comments.  I'm frustrated that I spent TIME and energy teaching him grammar, etc. that he simply doesn't care to remember.  He is good about dutifully doing what I say is imperative, but he doesn't like it, it isn't sticking, and I can tell he feels frustrated.  (Honestly, he's good about dutifully doing it only after he throws fits - and sometimes cries.)

...

I'm not really sure what I'm actually asking here.  Hopefully someone can read through the lines for me.

 

 

Help?  Ideas?  Thoughts?

 

 

Obviously some people on here see this all, the frustration, fits, crying, the limited time he can spend on school and so on as normal. I do see some things you described like invention plans that are unrealistic as normal.

 

But to me the overall situation you are describing is No, Not Normal. I think you are right to be concerned. Something different is needed for him.

 

And personally I think you need to find out (if you don't already know) whether or not he has some identifiable learning or related problem that can help you to go in the right direction for his needs.

[Elisabet1]

You could try switching methods.

 

For us, we have had a child where home schooling just did not work. That child went back to school. I do not recommend that for everyone. But I wanted my child's education to be optimized and being at home was just not working at all for that one child. 

[Lori D.]

Loads of great, thoughtful responses here.

 

I just wanted to add that something that stuck out to me was the "hair trigger" (it takes very little to overwhelm him and he reacts), and blowing up about what sounds like a very reasonable amount of work for an average 4th grader. That sure sounds like a symptom to something beyond a learning style not matching up with resources -- either some sort of hidden learning disability/struggle, or even a physical issue, such as a food allergy or poor sleep patterns.

 

Your son is at an ideal age for doing some testing to see if you are dealing with some specific issues (stealth dyslexia, processing issue, ADD/Aspberger's spectrum, etc). And do some additional testing to either confirm/rule out possible physical issues (impaired hearing/vision, vision tracking, food allergies, poor sleeping, need for supplements to increase brain focus/concentration, etc.) that can cause children to be quickly overloaded, or cause them to be touchy/reactive.

 

 

Our younger DS has mild learning disabilities, poor sleep patterns, and some ADD traits. Especially up through about age 10, he hated doing school, he had a hard time staying focused without me right there, he struggled with writing (both the physical act of pencil to paper was hard, AND he seemed to have a short circuit between thinking of what to write and then getting out of his brain, down his arm and through the pencil onto paper). He was always a "hair trigger" toddler/pre-schooler; when we began homeschooling (gr. 1), he would blow up when he couldn't "get" a concept (almost always math). His reaction to not understanding was anger. It took until he was about 10-12yo to begin to gain the maturity to deal with it verbally. Also, math drained him, so to get to other subjects, we tried putting it at the end of the day's schedule, so he knew that once his "hated/worst" subject was done, he was DONE for the day and free to pursue his own interests.

 

It took us YEARS of research and trying different things, plus DS maturing mentally and physically, to get to a better place with schooling. Important for us:

 

1. Testing to uncover LDs, which then enabled us to research/incorporate therapies/helps to address and lessen those specific issues. Dianne Craft has a lot of helpful therapies, and suggests specific supplements and techniques to minimize LDs. Also, was just reading about other families who have discovered that gluten intolerance, OR, a build-up of histamines in the system can cause a child to blow up a lot. (Histadelia or Pyroluria)

 

2. Better match up resources that would find the learning resources that best fit his extreme learning style.

 

3. Food: eliminate all dyes and as many chemicals as possible; go with more natural foods; add fish oil and other supplements to increase focus/concentration. Try a food elimination diet to see if DS is sensitive to gluten or other food(s).

 

4. Daily physical exercise to throw off stress. Start the day with a run, a brisk walk around the neighborhood, trampoline jumping, jump-roping, etc. Several afternoons a week, do martial arts, team sports, swim laps, aerobic DVD, or other activity.

 

5. Sleep: again, regular rigorous exercise, to tire out his body. Two hours before bed, pull the plug on all electronics, and NO screens (the rapid screen re-draws are picked up subliminally in the brain and keep the brain cells firing for up to 2 hours after last exposure) -- computer, TV, e-reader, i-pad, etc. Having the brain so active makes it extremely hard to relax and fall asleep. Also, I understand that melatonin can be a helpful aid to establishing good sleep patterns.

 

6. Regular schedule. Absolutely vital: "This is just what we do and when." Encourage him to make a list of all the things he wants to do/plan for the day while you're having breakfast, and that is the carrot: "Oh, boy, once school is done (which is what we always do first thing!), you have some great things planned! Shall we get school started right away, so you'll have more time this afternoon for all your plans?" ;)

 

7. Writing: break it into several very small "bites" throughout the day. At 4th grade, our DS daily did these length of "bites", interspersed between non-writing subjects:

- 5 min = copywork for cursive practice (2 sentences)

- 5 min = journal prompt, work on a book report, other misc. writing  (equivalent of 2-3 sentences)

- 10 min in morning = writing program (equivalent of 2-3 sentences)

- 10 min in afternoon = writing program (equivalent of 2-3 sentences)

 

So, by the end of the day, DS has written 8-12 sentences, but just in short, manageable "bites". As previous posters have mentioned, whiteboard, oral work, sometimes have him dictate to you, etc.

 

 

Not trying to assume that your DS is at all like mine, or has all of the same issues. I just saw some similar types of overlaps in areas "hated" by both our DSs, and didn't know if learning issues and biological issues had been considered yet or not.

 

It's possibly you are really close to "turning the corner" (another year or so for your DS to mature). It's possible that if there are issues, NOW would be the time to address them. And it's possible that it would be very helpful to put your DS into a school for this spring semester -- a reality check for him, a break for you and an opportunity to focus on your youngers, and to have some time to reassess everything. Just a thought!

 

(For example, one dear friend's son fought homeschooling so much (she started him from the beginning), that halfway through 3rd grade she just finally reached the end of having tried everything and put DS in a school. It was the best decision for the whole family, as the DS would work for a teacher, when he wouldn't for his mom, and it relieved all the tension and allowed mom and DS to really develop a close family relationship. He just graduated last year. My dear friend really grieved not getting to homeschool him, because she had homeschooled the older DC, and saw what a tremendous benefit it can be... BUT... There are some children who just WON'T school at home... Even SWB has said that, in retrospect, it would have been better if one of her DSs had gone to high school.)

 

Anyways, not suggesting that as a permanent decision, but more of an opportunity to "push the reset button" for all of you, have time to think through everything, and get a little distance from the daily cycle you and DS are in at the moment, to see what would be the best route to pursue... Just a thought!

 

:grouphug:  SO sorry your family has had such a rough go of it! BEST of luck in finding what will soon smooth your educational journey with DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

PS -- Just re-read your original post, and in looking at your signature, you really have a FULL plate, with 3 younger students! Those high-need students can really suck the life out of us moms, and leave very little for the rest of the family. :(

 

What about hiring a "mother's helper" to come in a few times a week to work with the younger children, so you have a few hours a week of concentrated time to focus on DS. Or, better yet, bring in a tutor, a retired teacher, some other adult to work several hours a week one-on-one with your DS. Quite often, these high-need students work a WHOLE lot harder for someone else than mom... And that would give you some quality time to focus one-on-one teaching with your younger children. That also might give you the ability to take a step back and rethink the situation and determine what needs to happen.

 

Sending you hugs and warmest wishes for the inspiration to find what brings speedy relief to your situation!  :grouphug:

[Irishmommy]

I can certainly identify, my son would love to play video games all day, and doesn't care for school.

 

A couple of things come to my mind:

 

This is really the first year I have required my son to do much writing...there I said it. My mom (elementary public school teacher) would tell me all the time, "You really need him to writing everyday! He should be journaling..." I didn't listen. I felt like trying to get him to do "writing" everyday would make us both crazy. He wrote sentences, but not formal writing. Last year I upped the amount of writing I required. Instead of crazy writing topics like, "Write a paragraph describing your favorite summer activity" I would let him research a topic of interest and then write a "report" about it, then read it to his dad or the family. We went through MCT grammar island together. That program is not a traditional grammar program.

 

Fast forward to this year:

We began CW Aesop and Homer for older beginners. He is doing VERY well with it. We take 2 or more weeks to do each assignment because we do creative things with the writing as well. I realized that the "normal" writing topics were too general for him, he did not know where to begin. With CW, he knows exactly what to write. I can't tell you how nice it has been NOT to have a struggle over writing. I am not saying that this program would work for your son; but maybe just relaxing the expectations for writing a little until you feel he is ready.

 

-Can you read aloud some of the classical books to him? I will be reading aloud to my kids until they leave for college, because I think it is important.

 

- The other thing that strikes me is that he is showing you disrespect when he says to you he hates school. My son used to do the same thing. I told him that he had every right not to like school, but he did NOT have the right to complain to me about it. I told him I worked very hard to teach him and it was very disrespectful to me to "spit in the face" of all my hard work. I also let him know that I am not asking him to do any more work than any other ___ grader. I told him he should feel lucky that his parents are able to homeschool him. Some kids don't have that option. It did take time for this to sink in. I think we even had a deal where he had to have a positive attitude with school or he did not get video games for the weekend.

 

-Another thing that really helps us is having the NO video games during the week rule. It was so freeing to me not to have to compete with them for his time. Now our routine is: If you have your school work completed for the week, you can play games on Friday night (or we do a family movie). Saturday, rooms must be clean (as well as their bathroom) before any games.

 

And finally ((hugs)).

[Pen]

I have been thinking about this today, and had another time confusion that I wanted to share. 

 

My sense is that children typically spend about 1 hour per day on math (maybe a bit less at that age) daily 5 days per week--I'm including b&m schoolers who would likely have a class of a bit less than an hour plus a bit of homework each day. And that children typically also spend about 1 hour per day on various English and related language skills, but probably not including reading to learn, or reading for fun, which one hopes is in place by grade 4.

 

If he takes twice as longs as average to do his math and English/language that would be around 4 hours per day or 20 hours per week which is aprox. twice what he is apparently actually spending on total sit down school. So, does he really take more time than most children to learn the same material? Or is the primary problem his meltdowns and other behavior at spending reasonable time on school in general?