Tell me I'm not alone, horrible family Xmas

[8circles]

Respectfully, gently, I have to just say that I disagree with you continuing to subject yourself, your DH, and your children to this situation.  If your brother is, in fact, a sociopath then this isn't a safe situation for any of you.  I also don't think it's healthy or kind to continue this charade for your parents.  You aren't doing them any favors either.  Under these circumstances, I think you're taking the easy road.

 

I understand how you feel.  I have a similar situation in my own family so I do understand both the toxic sibling and parents who want to live in an alternate reality.  We're all also in the midwest.  

 

I wish you the absolute best regarding this situation.  I'm sorry that you're dealing with this.

[Meadowlark]

Respectfully, gently, I have to just say that I disagree with you continuing to subject yourself, your DH, and your children to this situation. If your brother is, in fact, a sociopath then this isn't a safe situation for any of you. I also don't think it's healthy or kind to continue this charade for your parents. You aren't doing them any favors either. Under these circumstances, I think you're taking the easy road.

 

I understand how you feel. I have a similar situation in my own family so I do understand both the toxic sibling and parents who want to live in an alternate reality. We're all also in the midwest.

 

I wish you the absolute best regarding this situation. I'm sorry that you're dealing with this.

I appreciate your honesty. If I ever felt that my kids were in danger or even affected, I would pull out quickly and immediately 100%. Believe it or not, my parents actually see me as never doing what they want me to do, and always making things harder than they need to be. So, although it may seem like I desperately want to please them, I think they would find that laughable and completely opposite of reality. I feel like I am inclined to want to please them, but that stems from my own desire to have happy family gatherings (delusional, right?) and my desire to make Christmas bearable for my parents who truly still grieve for my brother very deeply. I've never lost a child so I try not to judge what they are going through, and try my best to ease that pain. It may seem like I am sacrificing my own happiness and my family's, but we're talking a few hours once a year...not over and over again. Yeah, the charade is pretty much over. I mean, it's obvious that we ignore each other. The only thing I did was say Merry Christmas in an effort to be polite. And I tried not to leave the room when they came in, as my parents requested. I know, it sounds like a load of jolly fun, doesn't it?

[myfunnybunch]

 my desire to make Christmas bearable for my parents who truly still grieve for my brother very deeply. I've never lost a child so I try not to judge what they are going through, and try my best to ease that pain. It may seem like I am sacrificing my own happiness and my family's, but we're talking a few hours once a year...

 

What a deeply kind thing to do.

 

I trust your judgment as to whether this is bearable for you and for the rest of your family for now, and that you will know when and if there is a need to draw an even firmer boundary to protect yourself or them.

 

Reading your posts, I find myself incredibly sad that your parents cannot see what deeply loving kindness you are showing them. I just want to let you know that even though I am a stranger to you, I see it and acknowledge it, and I admire you very much for it.

 

Cat

 

[PrairieSong]

I'm so sorry. I have quite a bit of dysfunction in my family, too, but my brother and SIL moved away long ago and completely cut themselves off from all of us. I can only imagine what holidays with them might be like.

 

I have lost both a brother and a sister, years ago, the sister to suicide...so my family knows how devastating that is. I hope you can come to a peaceful place regarding your brother and SIL. I would either severely limit my time at the family Christmas gathering or not go at all. It's hard to say without being in your shoes and only reading what you shared here. I wish you peace of mind, whatever you decide.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would go.  I would not limit the time, and I would buy presents for every single person that was there.  I would probably arrive a bit late, since it sounds like it would be hard to leave early.  I would do something fun for me earlier in the day.

And I would not hype this Big Family Christmas to the kids at all.

Instead, I would talk up the real meaning of Christmas.

 

Additionally, and far more importantly, I would make Advent gorgeous in my house.  Our emphasis from a celebration POV would be on St. Nicholas Day (12/7 I think) and Epiphany (1/6).  We would have internal, awesome, memorable family parties on those days.  And I would, my own self, set out with the intention not just to give the kids something to enjoy, but to thoroughly enjoy it myself.  Also, major internal nuclear family gift giving would supercede the extended family gift giving, and it would occur on 12/7 and 1/6 at home, alone.  Also, at Gma's house I would be checking on all the kids, frequently, and probably playing a big family game with them. 

[Meadowlark]

PrairieSong, MyFunnyBunch, and others:

 

I have no idea how to multi quote on an iPad, and I wish I could because I would love to respond to specific things, especially in your posts. I appreciate the support here more than you all know. Knowing how suicide affects a family is something very few understand. It changes people. There's guilt, desperation, denial, questions and more.

 

Cat, you, a complete stranger recognize and appreciate that my heart is in the right place. Thank you for that. I need to somehow accept that to my family, I will never measure up. Everything is on the table. I have poured my heart and soul out to my parents on a few different occasions, but they don't see my brother as anything other than a lonely, troubled soul. In fact, my mom once told me that since my brother doesn't have any friends, can't hold a job, etc, that I need to be the one who cares for him, the one he can lean on, because he doesn't have anyone else. And we're FAMILY. She even once said if someone would've told her that her son committed suicide, she thought it would've been him. And me cutting him out of my life is supposedly the most hurtful thing I could do to such a sad, lonely person. She even once asked me how I would feel if he committed suicide, almost implying that my actions would put him over the edge. I had no words for that, I was blown away. It makes you wonder how we can even function day to day, right? It's completely twisted and sad, but my reality. I truly never thought this is what would become of my family.

[Meadowlark]

I would go. I would not limit the time, and I would buy presents for every single person that was there. I would probably arrive a bit late, since it sounds like it would be hard to leave early. I would do something fun for me earlier in the day.

And I would not hype this Big Family Christmas to the kids at all.

Instead, I would talk up the real meaning of Christmas.

 

Additionally, and far more importantly, I would make Advent gorgeous in my house. Our emphasis from a celebration POV would be on St. Nicholas Day (12/7 I think) and Epiphany (1/6). We would have internal, awesome, memorable family parties on those days. And I would, my own self, set out with the intention not just to give the kids something to enjoy, but to thoroughly enjoy it myself. Also, major internal nuclear family gift giving would supercede the extended family gift giving, and it would occur on 12/7 and 1/6 at home, alone. Also, at Gma's house I would be checking on all the kids, frequently, and probably playing a big family game with them.

I actually tried this in the past. I went into it with a positive attitude, determined to not allow them to ruin my Christmas fun. It failed. These people suck the life out of me. I couldn't fake it this year. I am a completely different person around them, as much as I REALLY try to be myself and ignore them, and have fun, It seems I just can't. At supper, I couldn't even ask my SIL to pass the butter! It was like I couldn't make my mouth move, I know, the power I give these people is pathetic. I'm embarrassed what I let them do to me. I don't know how to change it, other than to just. Not. Go. Its possible. I'm pretty sure it would severely hurt our relationship with my parents though.

[8circles]

I actually tried this in the past. I went into it with a positive attitude, determined to not allow them to ruin my Christmas fun. It failed. These people suck the life out of me. I couldn't fake it this year. I am a completely different person around them, as much as I REALLY try to be myself and ignore them, and have fun, It seems I just can't. At supper, I couldn't even ask my SIL to pass the butter! It was like I couldn't make my mouth move, I know, the power I give these people is pathetic. I'm embarrassed what I let them do to me. I don't know how to change it, other than to just. Not. Go. Its possible. I'm pretty sure it would severely hurt our relationship with my parents though.

 

What you are describing is really, really unhealthy.  You are trying really hard to make this work & to do the right thing but you aren't seeing how this is hurting you and I'll even say your immediate family.  This is a very toxic situation you're describing and it isn't even about your siblings, it's between you and your parents.  What you are allowing them to do to you is very sad, both for you and your family.  As much as you think your kids don't know, they certainly see what it does to you, whether you are aware of it or not.  You have said yourself how much this hurts you - do you think you are able to hide all that hurt away from your DH & your kids?  I'm seriously concerned for you because on the one hand you are aware of what's going on but then on the other you're in complete denial.  

 

I think the above should be your motivations to not allow this to continue - meaning not participate in the charade no matter how infrequent.  But it is clear that what's motivating you to continue is wanting to do right by your parents.  It isn't honoring them by allowing them to do so wrong by you & your children.  It isn't honoring them to enable them to be so hurtful.  It isn't honoring to them to protect them from pain simply to allow them to pretend to be happy.  You can love them and honor them and STILL do right by yourself & your own family.  

 

Amysue, many hugs. 

[Hakg]

Amysue, how do you feel in the lead up to Christmas?  On Christmas Eve, do you feel stressed and anxious about Christmas day and having to spend it with your family?  Does that rub off on your kids, husband?  Do you feel the dread driving to their house on Xmas day?  Butterflies?  Sick to the stomach?   I used to feel all this going to my in-laws for Christmas. It was just unhealthy for my own family, and I was grumpy on Xmas eve, trying to deal with the anxiety and worry of what may happen on Christmas day with the in-laws (I have a particularly nasty SIL and a crazy MIL). I decided *my* family had to come first and it was really important to me that I be relaxed so I could provide my DS and husband with a happy and pleasant Christmas, rather than the drama and whackadoodle that always surrounded Xmas with my in-laws, so we stopped attending the 'family xmas'.

 

My MIL is very into emotional blackmail and it sounds like there is a little of this going on with your mother too.  Your brother isn't your responsibility?.  I personally would want to step far, very far, away from this.

[Carol in Cal.]

I actually tried this in the past. I went into it with a positive attitude, determined to not allow them to ruin my Christmas fun. It failed. These people suck the life out of me. I couldn't fake it this year. I am a completely different person around them, as much as I REALLY try to be myself and ignore them, and have fun, It seems I just can't. At supper, I couldn't even ask my SIL to pass the butter! It was like I couldn't make my mouth move, I know, the power I give these people is pathetic. I'm embarrassed what I let them do to me. I don't know how to change it, other than to just. Not. Go. Its possible. I'm pretty sure it would severely hurt our relationship with my parents though.

 

I think that I did not make my point clear at all.

 

I'm not saying that you can have fun there.  I'm saying that you can go there and be polite though miserable, but not let that ruin your family life BECAUSE IT IS FOCUSSED ELSEWHERE.  Thus you are giving your kids and your parents the family get together that they want and enjoy, but having so much fun elsewhere that this is more of a brief obligation and not so fraught with Great Meaning.  Every time you think about it, consciously lift your focus from that to Epiphany and the great customs are you are creating with your children.  Honestly, I have NPD in my family, and I know what that is like (although no suicide) and this really does make a huge difference.  Plus the other focii are something that your kids can take with them into life, and that you can continue with them even when they have their own spouses and children. 

[Trish]

The interesting thing about the gatherings, is that the verbal abuse stuff happened in the past. So there really is nothing going on now except extreme awkwardness. You could cut the tension with a knife. Nobody talks, nobody even looks at each other. We eat, clean up (imagine how fun that is with my mom and SIL), open presents and then the kids play while we adults sit around and...well, try not to be in the same room. But, my mom told me and my brother this year that she didn't want us leaving the room when the other walked in because that isn't respectful of them in their home. Like I said, we go because of the kids and that is huge for me.

 

What exactly is going on at these gatherings that is making them so awful? Your kids are having a ball playing in the basement with the cousins, your mother is offering tons of food, and everyone is being polite. I know there is internal discomfort on your part due to past actions, but if everyone is more or less behaving at the party, couldn't we just fake some cheer? I might even attempt some *real* cheer and dare anyone to contradict my cheerfulness.

 

Then, if brother or SIL say something awful like, "Gee you look fat in those clothes," or "your gifts were pretty awful," (compared to our non-gifts), or "your husband has a stupid job," you could always say:

 

"What do you think, mom and dad, Brother thinks I look fat today! Do you think so, too, or do you think Brother just woke up on the wrong side of the bed????" (would they ignore the fact that he's insulting you in their own home? Or would he not do this because things are at an uncomfortable truce?)

 

I guess what I'm getting at, is, are these gatherings overtly uncomfortable, or is this mostly going on in your head? i.e. You KNOW he's sitting there thinking evil things, so everyone's uncomfortable, but in fact there's nothing really *there* to get upset over. The gift thing -- eh, WEIRD, but that can only happen ONCE right? Next year you won't bring gifts, or if you're feeling nice you'll bring something homemade or whatever.

 

What would happen if you plied everyone with excessive cheer?

 

[Plink]

OP - Your guilt and fear are controlling you. Whether you go next year or not, I hope you can find the time to really think through your own misery. Ask your husband what he sees and really listen to him without responding. Ask yourself what you are afraid of. Think about what can realistically be changed.

 

I am so very sorry.

[Alicia64]

I want to encourage anyone with narcissistic or sociopath family members to join us at TWTM subgroup: Narcissistic Personality: Staying Sane at

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/282-narcissistic-personality-staying-sane/.

 

There are several of us already posting on this subgroup and if you have difficult relatives: you belong!!

 

Here you'll find others who totally get how these people suck the very life out of you. How "sucking it up" just doesn't work with these people (sadly) and how staying positive and staying perky only sends the crazy relatives into full throttle on how to make you miserable (ie. "pay." Your optimism will not be tolerated if they have any say in the matter).

 

Please join us. Support makes all the difference when you're dealing with these kind of people.

 

Alley

[Ellie]

It would break my parents hearts if we didn't go. It's complicated, but they are very fragile after my brothers death. I know I cannot be responsible for healing them, but I also feel that I should just suck it up and get through it. I think my kids would be heartbroken not having Christmas at grandmas too, somim not sure how to get around that.

 

Also, remember that according to my parents, my brother and wife do no wrong. So in their eyes, it would be us disconnecting from a perfectly normal, healthy family holiday. We live 1 mile apart, a d see them often. It would create more tension than there already is.

 

And I doubt my parents notices the gift thing. DH thinks I should say something, I'm not so sure. What do you all think?

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I don't think one brother's death should be the cause of you being held hostage by your other dysfunctional brother, your parents' fragility notwithstanding.

 

Couldn't y'all open your presents at home in the morning, have dinner, then go to your parents' home for dessert in the afternoon, just for a couple of hours? If you see them often during the year, then just spending a couple of hours on Christmas day shouldn't be a big deal, KWIM? Or you could go over on Christmas Eve and let your brother visit on Christmas day.

 

I don't see anything wrong telling your parents about the gifts. It can be part of the package when you tell them that you won't be spending Christmas day with the whole family. That they won't understand is sad but that should not keep you from doing it.

 

Spending Christmas day with the family is a wonderful tradition, but not when the other family members are not normal. Don't do it. It will eventually infect...I mean, affect your children, and it just is not worth it.

[bettyandbob]

Your mom is manipulating you. How would you feel if your other brother committed suicide? As if that would be your fault. You are responsible for stability to the family. This is not loving. This is not healthy. 

 

This is not about breaking your mom's heart. It is about hurting you. Your mom will say you broke her heart. She appears to not care about breaking your heart. You need to step back. 

[Harriet Vane]

For those on this thread who don't see why it's that big a deal:

 

A dysfunctional family is not so much a matter of what was said or done, but rather it is a way of life and a way of thinking. It's never just one thing. Absolutely everything is said/done within the context of this way of thinking. It is pervasive and all-encompassing. Even if no one is overtly rude with their words, every look and every breath is oppressive. People who live like this do not choose to act this way--it is the way they are. It is a state of being. Saying that you can be oblivious to it is like saying you can breathe coal dust or live in a nuclear waste site with radiation and not get sick.

 

OP--Consider stopping these farces altogether. You know it's not a couple of hours one day. It ruins your month every December. You start dreading it long before, and it takes you a long, long time to shake off that awful miasma afterwards. Whenever you think of it throughout the year, you feel sick.

 

And, OP, this isn't good for your kids, no matter what they say. It's really not worth it. Teaching them to love these people is teaching them to love a dragon. They will get burned.

[Lisbeth]

I wish I could skip. DH insists we go. 

 

This is where the two yeses rule comes in.  He can insist until he is blue in the face.  I still wouldn't go.

[Alicia64]

For those on this thread who don't see why it's that big a deal:

 

A dysfunctional family is not so much a matter of what was said or done, but rather it is a way of life and a way of thinking. It's never just one thing. Absolutely everything is said/done within the context of this way of thinking. It is pervasive and all-encompassing. Even if no one is overtly rude with their words, every look and every breath is opressive. People who live like this do not choose to act this way--it is the way they are. It is a state of being. Saying that you can be oblivious to it is like saying you can live breathe coal dust or live in a nuclear waste site with radiation and not get sick.

 

OP--Consider stopping these farces altogether. You know it's not a couple of hours one day. It ruins your month every December. You start dreading it long before, and it takes you a long, long time to shake off that awful miasma afterwards. Whenever you think of it throughout the year, you feel sick.

 

And, OP, this isn't good for your kids, no matter what they say. It's really not worth it. Teaching them to love these people is teaching them to love a dragon. They will get burned.

 

Perfectly said! Dealing with this kind of person is like dealing with someone with rabies. There's no way to spend Christmas with them if one or more people in the room have rabies. You can't play games with the kids etc. and stay perky and positive when someone with rabies is in the house. It's impossible.

 

Alley

[Lisbeth]

I actually tried this in the past. I went into it with a positive attitude, determined to not allow them to ruin my Christmas fun. It failed. These people suck the life out of me. I couldn't fake it this year. I am a completely different person around them, as much as I REALLY try to be myself and ignore them, and have fun, It seems I just can't. At supper, I couldn't even ask my SIL to pass the butter! It was like I couldn't make my mouth move, I know, the power I give these people is pathetic. I'm embarrassed what I let them do to me. I don't know how to change it, other than to just. Not. Go. Its possible. I'm pretty sure it would severely hurt our relationship with my parents though.

 

Many, many hugs.  You don't deserve this!  Here's what I see:  you are very worried about hurting the relationship with your parents, but they don't seem to give a whit about hurting the relationship with YOU.  Where are YOU in all of this?  I would NOT go, I would explain exactly why, I would look up "gaslighting" and I would call them out on denial and gaslighting.  Directly.  I would NOT subject my kids to unequal treatment.  Because, here's the other thing:  grandma and grandpa are also A-OK subjecting your children to these toxic people.  I believe they DO know how crazy the other son is.  They just don't care enough about you or your children to call it out.

 

Toxic, toxic, toxic.  Your kids will get the sense of the misery around this outing.  If you are like me, it probably does affect you for days before and after.  There is great peace in dropping the rope.

 

Your parents - I would offer a separate outing a few days before or after this one.  If they refuse or throw toddler fits over it, that is on them.  Calmly tell them what you are willing to do, and calmly accept their reaction, and say, "If that is your choice, that is what I must accept."  Period, hang up, don't contact after that, the ball is in their court.

 

I am so, so sorry that you have to deal with it.  But this is a mom moment really, rather than a daughter one.  Do what is best for your family.  And you.  You deserve a great holiday!

[Lisbeth]

PS.  There was a Twilight Zone episode about a young boy with the supernatural ability to make people disappear forever, and his family all had to sit around, tense, and do exactly what he wanted, or he would get mad and make whoever didn't jump through his hoops disappear.  I remember the scene of them all making him happy, being at his beck and call, and sitting around tense and miserable.

 

This sounds like that.  Miserable.  Again, HUGS!  We can't help what family we were dealt. 

[MinivanMom]

PrairieSong, MyFunnyBunch, and others:

 

I have no idea how to multi quote on an iPad, and I wish I could because I would love to respond to specific things, especially in your posts. I appreciate the support here more than you all know. Knowing how suicide affects a family is something very few understand. It changes people. There's guilt, desperation, denial, questions and more.

 

Cat, you, a complete stranger recognize and appreciate that my heart is in the right place. Thank you for that. I need to somehow accept that to my family, I will never measure up. Everything is on the table. I have poured my heart and soul out to my parents on a few different occasions, but they don't see my brother as anything other than a lonely, troubled soul. In fact, my mom once told me that since my brother doesn't have any friends, can't hold a job, etc, that I need to be the one who cares for him, the one he can lean on, because he doesn't have anyone else. And we're FAMILY. She even once said if someone would've told her that her son committed suicide, she thought it would've been him. And me cutting him out of my life is supposedly the most hurtful thing I could do to such a sad, lonely person. She even once asked me how I would feel if he committed suicide, almost implying that my actions would put him over the edge. I had no words for that, I was blown away. It makes you wonder how we can even function day to day, right? It's completely twisted and sad, but my reality. I truly never thought this is what would become of my family.

 

Your parents may be hurting from your brother's suicide, but your mother is clearly very manipulative and emotionally abusive, perhaps even NPD or borderline. Please don't put yourself in this position any more. Your brother's happiness is not your responsibility. Your parents' happiness is not your responsibility. Keeping the family peace is not your responsibility. No suicide that has occurred in the past or might occur in the future is your fault. Anyone that suggests otherwise is not an emotionally healthy person. Why would you want your children's holiday memories to be of spending time with people like this? I'm so sorry you are hurting, but continuing to subject yourself to their behavior will not help heal your family. You can honor and support your parents without subjecting yourself to this.

 

-Send out an email today letting your parents know that your son will be celebrating his birthday on his birthday this year (and every future year). Tell them they are invited forever and ever, and then start ignoring your sil's birthday drama. Block her emails or facebook page if necessary. When the grandparents choose to spend his birthday with his cousin then you can just smile and enjoy a birthday with more friends.

 

-Set up times for your children to see their grandparents throughout the year when brother and sil won't be there. Keep it short and shut down any conversations about your brother. "My relationship with brother is between us. I'm not going to discuss this with you." Rinse and repeat.

 

-When Christmas rolls around again, let your parents know that this year you are taking a trip to (Disneyworld, the Caribbean, a cabin up in the mountains, etc). "I'm so sorry we will miss the family Christmas this year, but this is our once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do a single Christmas away from home. We would love to have you over on (date) to celebrate Christmas with you before the holiday." Once you've broken the "tradition" it will be easier the following year to start having your own Christmas at home. Invite your parents to come on Christmas or beforehand (their choice). When they choose to spend Christmas with brother then you can smile and enjoy a quiet Christmas at home with your children.

 

-Don't let anyone guilt you or harass you. Learn how to walk away from those conversations . . . hang up the phone . . . end the visit. You have your own family now. Create new memories and new patterns of behavior with them.

[MinivanMom]

What a deeply kind thing to do.

 

I trust your judgment as to whether this is bearable for you and for the rest of your family for now, and that you will know when and if there is a need to draw an even firmer boundary to protect yourself or them.

 

Reading your posts, I find myself incredibly sad that your parents cannot see what deeply loving kindness you are showing them. I just want to let you know that even though I am a stranger to you, I see it and acknowledge it, and I admire you very much for it.

 

Cat

 

 

This.

[snowbeltmom]

Your parents may be hurting from your brother's suicide, but your mother is clearly very manipulative and emotionally abusive, perhaps even NPD or borderline. Please don't put yourself in this position any more. Your brother's happiness is not your responsibility. Your parents' happiness is not your responsibility. Keeping the family peace is not your responsibility.  {snip}. You have your own family now. Create new memories and new patterns of behavior with them.

 

Well said. 

 

Imo, this situation is not going to improve with time.  By bucking tradition and not bringing gifts for your kids this year, your brother is now including them in the family dysfunction. 

 

The well being of the members of your own family (including yourself) must take priority over anything else. :grouphug:

 

[Trish]

If the atmosphere is toxic even though nothing actually toxic is being said or done, then I'd say you have to not put yourself in the situation.

 

Or find a way to cut through the toxic air and say, "pass the butter, please."

 

Regarding the birthday party, when a relative can't make a party we have planned for the kids, we just celebrate again when the relative is available. There is no inherent limit to the number of times we are willing to eat cake and accept gifts!

 

 

[zoobie]

Your brother isn't the problem at the moment. It's your parents. If you are still in therapy, I would explore how/why they are controlling you. As someone else said, your mother may be on the NPD or borderline spectrum. You seem to be ignoring her manipulation skills. She's managed to get you and your family and a sociopath and his family to be puppets in her happy family Christmas charade. With two siblings out of three having serious mental illness, the genetic component is hard to ignore.

 

My DH's mother is BPD (her sib has mental illness), his father is who knows what (and one of his sibs committed suicide and the other is an alcoholic). I am terrified about the genetic potential for our kids, to be honest! DH has been in therapy not only to deal with the fallout from the breakdown in his family but to keep himself "healthy" and know what to watch for in our kids. Out of his three sibs, there's one who seems BPD as well with whom we have no contact. She started showing signs at a young age, and I agree with PP in that I would keep my kids in the same room if you continue family gatherings.

 

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. :grouphug:

[Peaceful Isle]

I didn't read the replys ( have to get going on school soon ) , but just wanted to give you hugs and say I understand.

You don't have to go through this every year. Set limits, and don't feel guilty over them. Don't allow yourself to get hurt like that. If you don't take care of yourself, no one will. I had to do this.

[Meadowlark]

My husband and I had a long talk last night. We both agree that my parents are responsible for much of this. I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but my mom is on medication for a few things...depression, possibly bipolar but I can't say for sure. She grew up in a dysfunctional family, claims she was mistreated and never accepted by her own mother (who I happen to have a great relationship with), AND she cut off the ties with 2/3 of her own brothers. One is homeless, the other is disconnected from the entire family, and there's one other who she sees once a year. We also suspect some jealousy towards me as she has made comments such as "you're so lucky you are going to have a nice, big family"...basically the opposite of what hers ended up being.

 

It is true that regardless of what is said or not said, done or not done, the situation is incredibly toxic. No, no verbal abuse is taking place at the gathering (sociopaths woud never let others see that), but the ignoring, looks, lack of conversation...all makes it unbearable. Gosh, I would almost rather some back and forth banter rather than the silent manipulation that is going on. Is it in my head? Well, honestly, I do feel things more than others (my brother and SIL apparently feel nothing and go to great lengths to have a jolly good time)...and this has been going on for a decade so I do not even know perception from reality anymore. That is why I started this thread.

 

Mostly, I am terrified of the genetic component also, and ending this cycle of mother/daughter conflict and family dysfunction. It's just hard to know whether completely ignoring or setting firm boundaries is the way to go.

[snowbeltmom]

Is it in my head? Well, honestly, I do feel things more than others (my brother and SIL apparently feel nothing and go to great lengths to have a jolly good time)...and this has been going on for a decade so I do not even know perception from reality anymore. That is why I started this thread.

 

Does anyone outside of your family tell you this?  My guess is that your parents and brother want you to believe this about yourself, because they can brush off your legitimate feelings as you "over reacting" and then get a free pass for their bad behavior.

 

Someone up-thread mentioned "gas lighting."  I first saw this term mentioned on the WTM boards a few months ago.  If you are not familiar with the term, I think you would find it worthwhile to do that google search.

 

:grouphug:

[Meadowlark]

Does anyone outside of your family tell you this? My guess is that your parents and brother want you to believe this about yourself, because they can brush off your legitimate feelings as you "over reacting" and then get a free pass for their bad behavior.

 

Someone up-thread mentioned "gas lighting." I first saw this term mentioned on the WTM boards a few months ago. If you are not familiar with the term, I think you would find it worthwhile to do that google search.

 

:grouphug:

Absolutely! My dad said I completely overreacted about the birthday thing. I have never seen him so angry as when we were arguing about it. He was completely exasperated with me and kept saying that I just "didn't get it". He walked out on the conversation. He said in not so many words that amy didn't get what amy wanted, so amy threw a fit. They said they chose my nieces party to show me that. This is coming from a man I respected and loved deeply for 36 years. I was daddy's little girl.

 

The "free pass" thing was spot on. That is what we feel my brother has been getting from my parents for the past 10 years. I could give a million examples, but it's the same pattern. They do something, I have a reaction because I'm hurt, they think I'm acting ridiculous, rinse and repeat.

 

I do think some people are just more sensitive than others, and I do fall on the more sensitive end, always have. But I have sought out counseling, and have a few best friends who I have asked to give it to me straight, and I believe they would. No one, except my family, has ever told me that I was acting irrationally about things they have done/not done. The therapist did tell me that my main problem is personalizing things. I never did understand how you can not personalize things that have to do with who you are, or even your children.

[snowbeltmom]

The "free pass" thing was spot on. That is what we feel my brother has been getting from my parents for the past 10 years. I could give a million examples, but it's the same pattern. They do something, I have a reaction because I'm hurt, they think I'm acting ridiculous, rinse and repeat.

 

I could also give a million examples as well.  I completely understand where you are coming from. :grouphug: 

There have been times when even my parents can't deny that my feelings are justified, but then they tell me that I just need to let it go because I am the oldest.  Fwiw, I decided after Thanksgiving this year that I was done - something that I should have done years ago.

 

My mother is still pouting, but I refuse to take responsibility for her happiness any longer.

 

I also agree with other posters who have told you that your kids are picking up on things even if you don't think that they are. :grouphug:

[PrairieSong]

I do think some people are just more sensitive than others, and I do fall on the more sensitive end, always have. But I have sought out counseling, and have a few best friends who I have asked to give it to me straight, and I believe they would. No one, except my family, has ever told me that I was acting irrationally about things they have done/not done. The therapist did tell me that my main problem is personalizing things. I never did understand how you can not personalize things that have to do with who you are, or even your children.

I'm so sorry for all the craziness! I'm somewhat like you...sensitive to things. I also tend to personalize things, but over the years I have come to realize that other people's craziness is really about THEM, and not about what I have done or not done. About my estranged brother, my parents tried for a long time to re-establish a relationship, but finally gave up. My dad said, "I could turn cartwheels for him in the front yard, and do you know what he would say? 'You did them backwards'." It's very true. When people are disturbed, toxic, whatever you want to call it, IT DOES NOT MATTER what you do or don't do, because they see everything through their Crazy Glasses. That's what I mean when I say it's not about you. It's about them.

 

I think this may be what your therapist means about you personalizing things.

[zoobie]

Talking to your parents and expecting them to change their behavior is pointless. They're going to marginalize your feelings and tell you you're overreacting because that's how they keep you in control and in line. You have to go in to family gatherings and conversations knowing that no one is going to meet your emotional needs, that everyone is there playing their own game. Similarly, there is NOTHING you can do to make them happy. It will never be enough. You have to decide if maintaining the façade of a relationship is worth it to you. Don't expect your parents to act like parents or grandparents should. They never will. If you continue contact, you will have to set firm boundaries and expect huge pushback. If you say 2 hours, then you have to leave at the 2 hour mark. No matter how long she spent on the dessert. Don't waste mental energy in trying to figure out why--invite them to the birthday party, but don't ask if they don't come. If you ask why, it's always going to be "your fault." And it never is. Grow ups control their own behavior and don't blame others.

 

Sometimes the "good" outweighs the "bad." DH's parents were too toxic. There was no good. He decided to cut contact before we had kids. It was actually a pregnancy that ended in miscarriage and their reaction that spurred his decision. He has had to mourn the loss of parents and grandparents. It wasn't and isn't easy, but it was the best choice for his mental health and for our family. Yours may not be that toxic, and holidays amp up the crazy in every family. Only you and your DH can decide that. A professional could be very helpful.

 

I'd grab a book or two on borderline personality disorder. Your mom may say she's being treated for X or Y, but the manipulation involved will make the BPD resources likely to be helpful to you.

[Meadowlark]

Can anyone help me with how to communicate these boundaries to my parents? My mom is very easily offended by me, so I want to make sure what I communicate is nuetral, to the point, and not emotionally "charged". Here is what I will need to communicate for next year...

 

I will not draw names amongst the adults (btw,I said that this year and I got the whole "its our house, our Christmas and that's what we've decided to do...) I would like to get my parents a gift though.

 

We are available in the morning or evening, as to not wreak havoc on my kids schedules (3/5 nap)

 

I will stay 2-3 hours (although if we do a morning thing or evening, we will naturally leave within that time, so maybe this does not have to be said)

 

We will not be bringing gifts for the kids, as my brother set that precedence. Again, perhaps doesn't need to be said.

 

Then, while we are there, I will spend most of the time with the kids as I agree the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I will make no effort to please my parents by staying in the same room as these people. I was the most miserable when that happened.

 

Do these things seem like firm boundaries for me, yet respectful of my parents? I'm shooting for a little of both here.

 

Btw, I googled gaslighting. WOW. That is exactly what my parents have been doing to me all these years! My DH really thinks they are clueless, or maybe it's just stubborn.

[PrairieSong]

Amy, it seems that whatever you say, however you say it, matter-of-fact, your mom still will likely be offended because you are not agreeing to play by her rules. So be aware of that. You should practice exactly what you will say and be prepared to have to keep repeating it. It still may not be taken well.

 

When people are emotionally unhealthy, sometimes they don't realize what they are doing, or they sort of do realize it, but they don't know any other way to be. Usually it's just "someone else's fault". You are changing the game. Upsetting the crazy cart. Causing a kerfuffle. Fingers will likely be pointed at you. You and your husband need to stand firm. Know that they will probably blame you, but that you need to set healthy boundaries for you and your family. Pull your own wagon.

[zoobie]

I wouldn't verbalize most of that because it will invite argument. Just do it. When it's time to draw names, don't. No, we are not participating. Follow your kids around the house. When your set time is up (decide with DH and have him help you follow through!), leave. Telling them ahead will give them opportunity to push back more. Get up, say good bye, kiss/hug if you do, then go. Don't explain, don't argue, don't apologize. No, we are leaving now.

 

When/how does she usually communicate the plans for the day? Tell her that you are available in the morning or evening but not afternoon. Before 2pm or 6pm or later. You do not have to say why. If she schedules it in the time you are unavailable, that is her choice. You say ok, maybe next year. Do not engage!

 

I think you are going to have to reassess what is "respectful." To me, as long as you're not adding, "you crazy $&!)@" to any of that, you're not being disrespectful. They're not going to like it, but that's not being disrespectful.

[Trish]

Who is doing the ignoring, funny looks and lack of conversation if your brother and SIL are having a jolly good time? Do you mean they only talk among themselves, and ignore you and your husband? If you aren't comfortable speaking to them, wouldn't the "lack of conversation" apply to both parties?

 

If you attempt a conversation, do you get shut down or ignored? Or do you not attempt one because it is "too toxic?"

 

If you want things to get any better, you have to make movements in that direction, i.e. treat people as if they will react normally to you if you ask them to pass the butter or  how was your holiday.

 

If you assume that none of this is possible because it is an Impossibly Complicated Mental Health Miasma, then I don't see why you're going there. Surely the fumes aren't good for your kids.

[Meadowlark]

Great insight. Zoobie and Prairiehead. You hit the nail on the head. Now, if I can get my heart to just listen to my head...

 

I agree not to engage will be better. I could tell my mom I like her earrings and she would say "why don't you like my necklace."...you get the idea. We have a way of pushing each others buttons.

 

She usually communicates things pretty early. She always tells me when she's serving the meal. This year, it was 12:30 with gift opening to follow.

 

Repeating over and over DO NOT ENGAGE.

[Meadowlark]

Who is doing the ignoring, funny looks and lack of conversation if your brother and SIL are having a jolly good time? Do you mean they only talk among themselves, and ignore you and your husband? If you aren't comfortable speaking to them, wouldn't the "lack of conversation" apply to both parties?

 

If you attempt a conversation, do you get shut down or ignored? Or do you not attempt one because it is "too toxic?"

 

If you want things to get any better, you have to make movements in that direction, i.e. treat people as if they will react normally to you if you ask them to pass the butter or how was your holiday.

 

If you assume that none of this is possible because it is an Impossibly Complicated Mental Health Miasma, then I don't see why you're going there. Surely the fumes aren't good for your kids.

Oh dear, maybe I wasn't clear. I've spent the better part of 10 years trying to communicate with them, trying to make it "better". Yes, shot down time and time and time again. They either ignore that I'm even talking, or they respond with one word answers. This is what was happening BEFORE the actual abusive letters and phone calls that I've received. Ive called family meetings, I invited my SIL to my house to try to fix things, etc etc. Nothing I do will change their behavior. They are who they are. I'm not out to make things right with them. The only relationship I care about now is that between my parents and us.

[StephanieZ]

Firstly, I get it. Really, I do. I broke off much contact with my brother for close to four years a while back, and it was a huge bone of contention with my mom, so I really do get it. I, too, did the get-together-civilly thing on a rare basis during that time for my mom's sake. It was agony! I get it!

 

That said, I think it is possible, since you say the really nasty/abusive behavior is NOT current, that you can continue to get together periodically for your parents' sake. Our folks do so much for us, and I don't think it is unfathomable that you can get together civilly on a rare occasion for the sake of your folks given that the current behavior is annoying and rude, but not abusive or cruel. 

 

Here are my suggestions . . . 1) You are making the choice to make the bd celebration into a contest. This is a bad choice. Choose differently! It really doesn't matter if your kid's bd celebration is ON his bd. Really, it doesn't. 90% of the time, bd parties aren't on the day b/c of weekend schedules, etc. That's not the end of the world. If it really is HUGE to you, then, yes, schedule it way ahead of time with a save-the-date email copied to both your folks and your brother/SIL. If you know what time your SIL likes to host her kid's bd party, consider scheduling yours for a different time -- say dinner or morning instead of mid-afternoon . . . Thus allowing her to still schedule her event that day if desired w/o conflict. Alternately, since she schedules her kid's think 2 months in advance, just wait, and schedule yours for the other day that weekend. Or another time. Really . . . This is NOT a contest between you and your brother over your parents' affection. If one of your kids had a SAT test or a major annual sporting event or something that day, then, presumably, you'd find another time/day. Just think of it that way and do it. In my family, it is rare to have the party on the actual day b/c we schedule parties when their friends can come -- and so that means a Friday or Saturday night, and some of their friends aren't allowed to do sleepovers on Saturdays, so that leaves Fridays if they want a sleepover (which they often do). My 17yo this year looked at two Fridays and two Saturdays, switched the day twice, to make it so all her best pals could come, and even then, only one could sleepover b/c she ultimately chose a Saturday (since three guests had another party commitment the preferred Friday). So what?! They all had a great time, and it was all great!

 

2) Yes, shorten the holiday thing. Just tell Mom & Dad that the long gathering is rough on the kids and that they all end up cranky and miserable if it is too long, so you need to limit it to 3 hours. Aim to arrive 30 minutes before food is supposed to be served. (Ask her what time dinner will be so you can schedule meals/snacks/food prep.) Then, show up 20-30 minutes late (due to some reasonable explanation like some dish took longer than expected in the oven, or a fussy baby, or whatever). 

 

3) Sit next to your dh and enjoy a chat. Plan ahead three to five topics to discuss, things that are not sensitive/personal. Things like "That nice new play ground they are building over by the old mall." Or, "That beautiful park we went canoeing at last month." or "Cousin Jill's adorable new baby!" etc. Choose topics that you expect are not controversial and not offensive. Choose some that evoke pleasant memories from your childhood. "I loved that park we used to go to down by the river! Remember the awesome picnics Mom packed? I haven't had your egg salad in ages! Can I have the recipe?" Politely include your relatives in the chat with comments directed to them, "Have you seen that they broke ground on that new playground? Isn't it nice that they are including a swing set!" If they mumble or don't reply, just move on chatting with dh. Presumably, your parents will respond and converse with you whether or not your brother/SIL do. When your brother/SIL or parents bring up any topic, make polite inquiries and affirmative responses. "Is little Jenny still taking piano lessons? That's awesome! You must be so proud! Does she prefer classical or jazz or pop? What songs? Can she play for us on Mom's piano?" "How are karate classes going? Do you like their teacher? I've heard that martial arts is great for kids. What are the tournaments like? Do they really break boards? Cool! I'll have to look into that for Joey!"

 

4) Remember that the one holiday event with your family is just a few hours out of the season. Plan other special things with just your little family or with friends. 

 

5) You have great sympathy for your folks' loss of their son, and I can hear that the loss greatly pains you as well. This is a real and lasting pain for you all. I can't imagine how to deal with it, but don't disregard your own pain, either.

 

6) Your folks have limited days on earth, as do you. They know this well. You'll presumably have to deal with this brother when your mom or dad's health declines. My own mom is in the mid-stages of Alzheimer's now, and I *THANK GOD* that my brother and I made peace a few years ago, because I can't imagine how incredible more difficult this would be if my brother and I were still at war. We still have differences, and we butt heads occasionally, and all the past pain is not really healed, but, in time, we each grew enough to at least be able to set aside our differences, appreciate the good in each other, and have a positive enough relationship that we can work together to support our mom. If he and I were still at war, the plans we are now making for our mom would not have worked, and Mom would be much worse off for it. 

[myfunnybunch]

Repeating over and over DO NOT ENGAGE.

 

This.

 

And, for the record, this disengagement can be done in a kind and loving way by staying true to yourself, and remaining centered in what you know to be right and are willing to offer. Setting boundaries can be a kindness in itself because it prevents you from enabling the manipulation and guilt-tripping.

 

"Dinner is at 12:30? I'm sorry, we're not available then, but we'd love to join you for coffee later. How about 5:30? I can bring some coffee and treats." (Or whatever would suit your family's idea of celebration....If bringing something is a part of your family culture. I'd bring lots and lots and lots of wine. Heh.)

 

But, but, but.....(Guilt, mayhem, the day will be destroyed and it will be all your fault.)

 

"Oh dear, I'm sorry we'll miss (funactivitythatwemustbepresentfororthedaywillbedestroyedforeveryone), but we're not available at that time. Would you like us to join you after dinner, or should we skip the get-together this year?" That puts the ball in their court. A little bit like with a toddler, offer a limited range of choice that falls within the healthy boundaries you're setting, then let them choose how they want to handle the situation.

 

Once you've set your boundaries kindly but firmly, their reaction is their own. You own your actions and behavior; they own theirs. If they want to tantrum, guilt-trip, give the silent treatment....their problem. You have lived and acted kindly and respectfully in a way that is true to your heart.

 

Cat

 

[Peaceful Isle]

I agree with Cat...do not engage...do not play their game....you will always end up frustrated. Enjoy your babies and don't let them destroy your own family.

Hugs to you!

[scrapbookbuzz]

You do NOT need to put up with that. Just say NO. It's not worth your emotional or physical health to put up with that regardless of your blood relation.

And just so you know, mine was not enjoyable with extended family either. You are not alone in wanting to spend it with anyone other than your extended family!

[kwickimom]

We have family like that and we just quit going to things.

 

Never looked back and never been happier. Life is too short to spend holidays like that. I aim for peace and happiness here and if you aren't bringing me either of those things, then goodbye and sorry for your loss.