Katy Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Jill's not getting a degree in nursing. What I've gathered from the show: I think she wanted to be a nurse, but when her parents found out the male bodies she'd be exposed to they nixed it. She's mentioned on air that what she really wants to do is be a medical missionary in South America, and to marry a man (a doctor perhaps?) who is also interested in medical missions. So she did an apprenticeship with a lay-midwife in her area. Jana is not interested in being a Doula, but they don't allow their children out of the house without a "buddy" to protect them from temptation, so Jana did the Doula thing to go along with Jill. While I don't necessarily think it's a wonderful thing to censor your adult child's every action (Remember the conversation about Miley Cirus last week?), some of the worst decisions of my life were made in my early 20's. If my parents had been more stable perhaps they could have guided me to make better choices. And if Jill IS planning on being a medical missionary it probably is safer for her to work only with women. She's much less likely to be physically assaulted by a woman in labor. (ETA: I worked in nursing for years, and was assaulted, grabbed, groped, kicked, and in one instance given a serious concussion by men, the worst a woman ever did was pinch me). I think Jana was courting someone last year, but the family has made it pretty clear in the past that they would not announce a courtship until the couple was actually engaged. So the courtship didn't work out, they made no announcement, even though they hinted even on air that something had happened. Along that same vein, Jessa is probably engaged, just haven't announced it yet. Her boyfriend has declared his love for someone on his twitter account, and I seriously doubt he would have if they weren't engaged. It doesn't jive with the courtship model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Michelle* Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Correspondence nursing school? Is that even possible? How does one do clinicals, field work observation, etc.? Can one take the state certification boards without attending a B&M nursing program? Maybe just the prerequisites such as biology, microbiology, chem 1 and 2, college writing, etc. are done online and then transferred to a school that accepts the credits. I just can't imagine how an entire nursing degree done online could be legal. Unless I'm missing something, in most states, there are a significant number of required, supervised clinical hours that one must have, certified by an accredited program, before one can sit the licensing exam. No, she isn't doing correspondence nursing school. There's no such thing. From the Duggar blog: http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/message-from-jill-duggar.html "My name is Jill, and I am the 4th of 19 Duggar kids. Over the past few years, while considering my future plans, I’ve become very interested in nursing. When my little sister Josie was born prematurely, I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her and this really increased my nursing interest. I’ve decided to earn a Bachelors of Science in Nursing to allow me to pursue nursing. With 19 kids in our family, we’re probably one of the busiest families out there. Besides family activities and travels, I’m also a First Responder with our local Fire Department. This has given me more medical training and experience, but it’s also added to my busyness. So as I started into my college studies, I needed flexibility. I’m currently studying for some of my general education classes independently and then taking CLEP exams to earn the college credit. This allows me to study any time I want to and from anywhere in the world our family happens to be. Not only is this approach flexible, it’s also a lot cheaper. After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Michelle* Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Of course, that was a couple of years ago, so who knows what she's doing now. I don't watch the show and don't follow the news about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 No, she isn't doing correspondence nursing school. There's no such thing. From the Duggar blog: http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/message-from-jill-duggar.html "My name is Jill, and I am the 4th of 19 Duggar kids. Over the past few years, while considering my future plans, I’ve become very interested in nursing. When my little sister Josie was born prematurely, I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her and this really increased my nursing interest. I’ve decided to earn a Bachelors of Science in Nursing to allow me to pursue nursing. That post is several years old, from when they did the CollegePlus endorsement. When she accepted the midwife apprenticeship she mentioned she was going to pursue that instead of nursing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 No, she isn't doing correspondence nursing school. There's no such thing. From the Duggar blog: http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/message-from-jill-duggar.html "My name is Jill, and I am the 4th of 19 Duggar kids. Over the past few years, while considering my future plans, I’ve become very interested in nursing. When my little sister Josie was born prematurely, I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her and this really increased my nursing interest. I’ve decided to earn a Bachelors of Science in Nursing to allow me to pursue nursing. With 19 kids in our family, we’re probably one of the busiest families out there. Besides family activities and travels, I’m also a First Responder with our local Fire Department. This has given me more medical training and experience, but it’s also added to my busyness. So as I started into my college studies, I needed flexibility. I’m currently studying for some of my general education classes independently and then taking CLEP exams to earn the college credit. This allows me to study any time I want to and from anywhere in the world our family happens to be. Not only is this approach flexible, it’s also a lot cheaper. After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree. Well, I really didn't there was such a thing, but your post "That doesn't jive..." seemed to indicate that she was pursuing a BSRN through correspondence so I was trying to find clarification. Thank you for posting the additional information. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 Tho to be perfectly fair, neither does the vast majority of the American population. Get real. No one but the very rich or the very exceptional students have anything resembling "full access to higher education" in the states. The rest? They are pretty much screwed by a siphon of test scores, location, demographic and finance to whatever options remain to them. And it often doesn't end in a degree for most of them. Tho it does usually end in a ton of crushing debt either way. I understand this, but the Duggars are by no means poor. They have not had debt in years (according to the few episodes I saw) and they are probably raking it in from the TV show. I don't believe that they couldn't afford higher education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 What experience does the poor girl have with inappropriate stuff that she could inappropriately text? "Ooh, baby! I want to side hug you for 35 seconds, not 30 seconds! I know it's wrong, but..." Exactly what I was thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 What experience does the poor girl have with inappropriate stuff that she could inappropriately text? "Ooh, baby! I want to side hug you for 35 seconds, not 30 seconds! I know it's wrong, but..." *Snort* A whole 35 second? Scandalous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Very true. I guess I just understand that they are really trying to help her because they love her and care about her. I don't doubt that they love their kids, but they also seem to want to micromanage the kids' lives. In the end, that isn't really a positive way to express your love and concern. Love needs to have a component of trust. I don't see much trust in their children as people, even when they are adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree. She WILL be exposed to male bodies at ANY nursing school she attends. RN's have to do clinicals. They do NOT get to choose who they will work with. They do NOT get to pick and choose floors or patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 She WILL be exposed to male bodies at ANY nursing school she attends. RN's have to do clinicals. They do NOT get to choose who they will work with. They do NOT get to pick and choose floors or patients. She changed her plan (or it was never the plan at all more than likely) and became a lay midwife. That quote was scripted and published as part of the Duggar parents' endorsement of that correspondence school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I wonder what it does to a person to go from first base to full-out tea party ALL in one day. That seems overwhelming. I can't imagine having my first kiss and wedding night all within a few hours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I wonder what it does to a person to go from first base to full-out tea party ALL in one day. That seems overwhelming. I can't imagine having my first kiss and wedding night all within a few hours! definitely. I am betting there are some huge feelings that are very hard to process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I'm pretty conservative, my kids won't date/court till college, and I did know a couple that didn't kiss till the altar (her husband ended up being pretty strange; she died young while pregnant with her third child). However, I still cannot imagine having married my husband without so much as a kiss in this day and age. Arranged marriages are one thing. This is like trying to ride the line and not very balanced imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowing Brook Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I wonder what it does to a person to go from first base to full-out tea party ALL in one day. That seems overwhelming. I can't imagine having my first kiss and wedding night all within a few hours! I knew a lady that said when her and her husband were married neither of them knew what to do. They knew married couples were supposed to do something just not sure what. On her wedding night she called her mom. Her mom had "the talk" with her then. This lady said it took her and her husband a month to be able to do anything. Why neither parent had a talk with their 19 and 20 yo is beyond me. btw this is a couple that was married 60 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderchica Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 If I was expected to have a tea party with someone I'd never kissed, frontal hugged, or texted independently I'd have a heart attack right there on the bed! Poor girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderchica Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I knew a lady that said when her and her husband were married neither of them knew what to do. They knew married couples were supposed to do something just not sure what. On her wedding night she called her mom. Her mom had "the talk" with her then. This lady said it took her and her husband a month to be able to do anything. Why neither parent had a talk with their 19 and 20 yo is beyond me. btw this is a couple that was married 60 years ago. On the son's wedding episode, Jim Bob had him listen to some tapes that explained it. There was a mention of the couple "joining together like Legos". Helpful stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Dh's grandparents belonged to a conservative tradition prior to their marriage in which sex was considered a necessary evil for procreation and it was literally preached that the ONLY intimate relations a couple should engage in were when they wanted to get pregnant. By grandma H's own admission, they were married three years before they had sex, and they went on to have three boys and a total of 11 encounters in order to produce said children and then decided to be done with baby having. They abstained for about a decade until they left that church. I got the impression that maybe things got a little better after that since she was willing to talk about it with her daughters in law years later. I would imagine that living together for three years without any intimacy would put a LOT of pressure on that first time. YIKES! I know of one girl who married at 19 out of a very strict tradition like the Gothard group. She told me she cried the entire time and that was after hiding in the motel bathroom for several hours only to have her husband call her parents to talk to her about fulfilling her marital duty. What a dumb dude!!! Great way to get her to relax, idiot...could you imagine that phone call? That's the most extreme case I know of by admission of the bride. However, I will say my parents NEVER talked about this kind of thing with us and so when I was packing for my honeymoon my mother came and with burgundy cheeks and ears blushing so deep she looked like an eggplant, asked me if there was anything I wanted to know. I had that "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeew, please let that be the end of your speech!: reaction, similar to the one from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". That was it. Uhm, no thanks mom, I'm good to go. I think she was very relieved to NOT have to talk about it. Poor, poor mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 On the son's wedding episode, Jim Bob had him listen to some tapes that explained it. There was a mention of the couple "joining together like Legos". Helpful stuff! :lol: :lol: :lol: :smilielol5: Oh my word, I shouldn't laugh because it's actually tragic, but still I just couldn't help myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 On the son's wedding episode, Jim Bob had him listen to some tapes that explained it. There was a mention of the couple "joining together like Legos". Helpful stuff! :lol: :lol: :lol: :smilielol5: Oh my word, I shouldn't laugh because it's actually tragic, but still I just couldn't help myself! Tragic indeed! I highly doubt that their son really needed the explanation, but probably played along. Honestly, his sisters need to know if they are having ANYTHING to do with assisting in midwifery (seriously, sex advice and certain advice to assist a woman in stalled labour or in need of a jumpstart for labour...yeah, they NEED this information. If they don't have it and have no clue how a baby got there in the first place, then they would not be a midwife or doula that I would ever recommend). The Legos thing though...oh my...oh my....just so wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 And that is still nothing like sending her alone to a known danger with little assurance of other having her back. Or worse, knowing that the others who need to protect her are known for not doing so - such a peace corp or human trafficking problems. I don't think you are a bad mother. *shrug* I think your dd can do what she wants. But many children would not want to put their parents through that fear. And many parents would be okay with their child not doing it. Plenty of amazing young people with amazing parents join the military or take missions trips or join the Peace Corps. It is unfair, IMO, to imply that it is wrong for a young person to do such a thing. I would think that after 15 years you would comprehend that kids following in their parents footsteps is not an unusual or sickening thing to be viewed with suspicion. It's actually quite common. That is not what is happening here. Even though I know many more people who insist their child should grow up to use birth control and have a career, I do not presume that every person who follows that model of their parents is oppressed into it and is being robbed of making their own choices. We *actually know* that she wanted to pursue medicine and that her parents said no because they have made their lives quite public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I finally understand why they're so overprotective! Those Legos are hell to get apart once they're together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I cannot imagine being forbidden from kissing my future husband the day before the wedding and then being expected to "service" him regularly right after the wedding. Even most horny teenagers don't go from their first kiss to intercourse in a day. I'd say a few months or years between the two is typical for most teens, even those who aren't opposed to premarital sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janie Grace Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I cannot imagine being forbidden from kissing my future husband the day before the wedding and then being expected to "service" him regularly right after the wedding. Even most horny teenagers don't go from their first kiss to intercourse in a day. I'd say a few months or years between the two is typical for most teens, even those who aren't opposed to premarital sex. I know! Even if they had them wait til engagement to kiss, and had a really short engagement... at least there would be some warm up. The Legos! :lol: "You just get 'em lined up and -- CLICK! -- there ya go!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Plenty of amazing young people with amazing parents join the military or take missions trips or join the Peace Corps. It is unfair, IMO, to imply that it is wrong for a young person to do such a thing. I did not imply it is wrong. I said many a parent wouldn't want them to do that. That is not what is happening here. We *actually know* that she wanted to pursue medicine and that her parents said no because they have made their lives quite public. What we don't know is if she had a problem with that. For all we know, her parents pointed out some things she hadn't considered and after that, she agreed with them that it wasn't for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I know! Even if they had them wait til engagement to kiss, and had a really short engagement... at least there would be some warm up. Yes, this would be a big improvement. It would also give them time to back out if they realized they had no chemistry and weren't actually attracted to each other. Unfortunately, I've read about some couples that went through strict courtships like this (to "preserve purity" or "prevent divorce") and after they were married, the man either turned out to be an abusive jerk or gay. Of course, in this subculture, the wife will be expected to obey him and never leave him, even in either of those cases. Can you imagine how awful it would be to follow the prescribed program and be promised marital bliss for doing so, only to end up married to a man who didn't even know he was gay? Considering how some of these groups basically teach that being sexually attracted to someone is a sin, it's quite possible for a man to think the reason he can keep his hands off his fiancé is because he's a "super Christian," rather than realizing he isn't attracted to women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I did not imply it is wrong. I said many a parent wouldn't want them to do that. What we don't know is if she had a problem with that. For all we know, her parents pointed out some things she hadn't considered and after that, she agreed with them that it wasn't for her. And here we are back to the Gothard model of authority. And perhaps the Duggars are super reasonable folks, and I'm totally off base. But the girls I knew unquestioningly obeyed their parents. The ACT of questioning was in itself disobedience. And these were girls who were off away from their parents working at headquarters, so I imagine their parents were less invested in having them under their thumb than others who wouldn't allow such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 My parents had an arranged marriage and are still happy together 45 years later. They are very well-educated and my father was not married until he was 31, my mother a bit younger. Even at those ages their parents were involved. Before their wedding they had one introduction in a parlor with some parents and siblings around. It's very difficult to explain arranged marriage in a culture that values so much independence. It's not like it's being made out to be. Forming an engagement is a process of choosing a suitable partner and because elders are much more revered and respected than they are in the U.S., they are expected to help. They have an obligation placed upon them to help! The burden is greater on them than it is on the children and they would be seen as negligent if they didn't participate. They don't necessarily want to control their children and their children often reject potential spouses. The built-in assumptions are that they only want what is best for the child, that they pay more attention to the potential spouse's family situation, and that young people can make mistakes when blinded by love, ignoring negative traits or problematic in-laws. Yes, purity is also an issue. Imagine a child is choosing a university. This decision will impact their future debt, earnings, life experiences, etc. A lot of parents would get involved, yes? Maybe researching colleges, going to visits, reading brochures, checking finances? And nobody would think they were over-involved as long as the child was free to reject a particular university. In fact, people might say they were remiss in their duties if the allowed their child to take on tons of debt for a bad degree from a crappy college. It's kind of like that, but for something a thousand times more important and influential, and perhaps 12-15 times as long as university. :) ETA: I don't know anything about Gothard but it doesn't sound like something that should be conflated with arranged marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Yes, this would be a big improvement. It would also give them time to back out if they realized they had no chemistry and weren't actually attracted to each other. Unfortunately, I've read about some couples that went through strict courtships like this (to "preserve purity" or "prevent divorce") and after they were married, the man either turned out to be an abusive jerk or gay. Of course, in this subculture, the wife will be expected to obey him and never leave him, even in either of those cases. Can you imagine how awful it would be to follow the prescribed program and be promised marital bliss for doing so, only to end up married to a man who didn't even know he was gay? Considering how some of these groups basically teach that being sexually attracted to someone is a sin, it's quite possible for a man to think the reason he can keep his hands off his fiancé is because he's a "super Christian," rather than realizing he isn't attracted to women. There are very specific cases within Gothard specifically where women have claimed that they were counseled to stay with a child molesting husband. Reading up on sex abuse within the cult I was in is at the bottom of my list of things I want to do, but I know I'm going to go do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Mommaduck, this is what concerns me about the use of "midwife" in the context of a family who follows Gothard principles stating that their daughter is studying to become a doula or MW. I've read Bill Gothard's training articles for the midwives and the outline of the program of study. Since he personally shuns college and nearly all allopathic medicine pertaining to women's health issues, his materials are the bulk of the information recommended for midwives of the sect. He has an obssession with cabbage patch dolls asserting that they are instruments of the devil and cause labor and deliveries to stall until the midwife roots them out and gets them out of the house. He thinks just about everything, in terms of women's problems, can be cured by rooting out the sin or adhering to a very strict diet which he developed without benefit of any medical training. Abstinence cures infertility, and so forth. Reading this stuff is like stepping back into the Dark Ages. His 1986 "Advanced Seminar Textbook" included admonitions to practice abstinence according to a calendar he provided in order to eliminate or at least greatly reduce the changes of genetic abnormalities in babies. Circumcision is a must and MUST take place on the 6th day. He believes that ancient bloodlines must be cleansed through prayer of the elders and certain rituals; one must repent for sins that may have been committed by ancestors, failure to do so can again cause birth defects, pregnancy troubles, childbirth woes, and childhood rebellion such as his testimony of an adopted three year old who refused to believe in Jesus until her parents had repented on behalf of her biological parents for their sin which apparently was followed by the instant faith of the child. He believes in the pre-birth training of the embryo and has a basic care newsletter on that. This is all taught through his Medical Training Institute of America. Care Bulletin #7 How to avoid unnecessary C-sections - the couple attempting a VBAC should ask for a special word from the Lord to eliminate their fear and should not listen to the advice of medical practitioners. His Basic Care newsletter of 1996 is the one that tells midwives all about the evils of cabbage patch and troll dolls and the interference they can have on labor and delivery. A large part of midwife training through the medical institute includes determing what could be evil in the home and disposing of it so that labor can progress naturally. He extolls the virtue of followers coming to him for diagnosis of their illnesses and injuries so he can prescribe spiritual treatment. He has no medical training. He states in the same 1986 edition that God can bless NO marriage (he emphasized the no, not me) that goes against parental counsel. Talk about putting God in a box! From his "Establishing Biblical Standards of Courtship", the following page is supposed to be removed from the text by teenage sons and daughters: "… demonstrate your commitment to God's plan for courtship instead of man's philosophy of dating. …" The young person must say to his or her father, "I will wait for your full release before entering into marriage." The father, in turn, tells his daughter that "I will protect you from unqualified men." To his son the father says, "I will protect you from strange women." This covenant is "between a father and a son as witnessed by the Lord Jesus Christ," and must be signed by the child, the father, and the family's pastor. I could quote passages from his newsletters and text all night. I won't. Suffice it to say I would be very, very concerned about a woman receiving women's health advice, prenatal care, and labor/delivery/post partem care from an ATI trained "midwife" due to the total lack of actual, factual medical advice, and the emphasis on mysticism and seeing the devil lurking around every corner. Well, now I've opened the can of worms that I said I wouldn't open. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I did not imply it is wrong. I said many a parent wouldn't want them to do that. What we don't know is if she had a problem with that. For all we know, her parents pointed out some things she hadn't considered and after that, she agreed with them that it wasn't for her. Or agreed because she knew she was expected to agree. I'm sorry. I've read the lists from ATI, I've been to the Seminars, I've even been given access to higher materials that I wasn't "qualified" to look at because I hadn't attended the next level of Seminar (friends higher up allowed me "quietly"...I think they could have gotten in trouble if it had gotten out). It's brainwashing in some respects. In other respects it's very much "play along or be declared rebellious"...a grave, grave sin in Gothard-World. So grave, that it's like a witch hunt. Even those children that have been accused by others "I see a spark of rebellion in your child" could get sent to Gothard's juvi center (or for other fundamentalists, places like Hephzibah House). I had a friend that was put in one of those places (she was a good and decent person...died young after being married to an abusive man in combination to her own health problems). I was threatened with a place like that when I was girl. If I didn't behave (aka, if I embarrassed the family in ANY way...such as when people found out I was adopted by my stepfather and not his natural child), I would be sent to a "boarding school"...boarding school did not refer to an actual boarding school, but rather turned over to one of these abusive places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Faith, I've read the same. I've read literature from Gothard on sex, childbirth, modern medicine, hospitals, and adoption. It's scary stuff...and I'm a granola mama with two homebirths under my belt and have been part of the Quiverful crowd (they would disown me now). Their "midwifery school" is NOT good. It's scary. I really, really hope those girls are going to be aiming for one of the national exams and are studying under a CPM or a CNM. I really hope they get a sex education beyond tapes and legos. I mean a SERIOUS education (not suggesting they have sex, but getting married and having been there and done that first surely would be a positive). Mommaduck, this is what concerns me about the use of "midwife" in the context of a family who follows Gothard principles stating that their daughter is studying to become a doula or MW. I've read Bill Gothard's training articles for the midwives and the outline of the program of study. Since he personally shuns college and nearly all allopathic medicine pertaining to women's health issues, his materials are the bulk of the information recommended for midwives of the sect. He has an obssession with cabbage patch dolls asserting that they are instruments of the devil and cause labor and deliveries to stall until the midwife roots them out and gets them out of the house. He thinks just about everything, in terms of women's problems, can be cured by rooting out the sin or adhering to a very strict diet which he developed without benefit of any medical training. Abstinence cures infertility, and so forth. Reading this stuff is like stepping back into the Dark Ages. His 1986 "Advanced Seminar Textbook" included admonitions to practice abstinence according to a calendar he provided in order to eliminate or at least greatly reduce the changes of genetic abnormalities in babies. Circumcision is a must and MUST take place on the 6th day. He believes that ancient bloodlines must be cleansed through prayer of the elders and certain rituals; one must repent for sins that may have been committed by ancestors, failure to do so can again cause birth defects, pregnancy troubles, childbirth woes, and childhood rebellion such as his testimony of an adopted three year old who refused to believe in Jesus until her parents had repented on behalf of her biological parents for their sin which apparently was followed by the instant faith of the child. He believes in the pre-birth training of the embryo and has a basic care newsletter on that. This is all taught through his Medical Training Institute of America. Care Bulletin #7 How to avoid unnecessary C-sections - the couple attempting a VBAC should ask for a special word from the Lord to eliminate their fear and should not listen to the advice of medical practitioners. His Basic Care newsletter of 1996 is the one that tells midwives all about the evils of cabbage patch and troll dolls and the interference they can have on labor and delivery. A large part of midwife training through the medical institute includes determing what could be evil in the home and disposing of it so that labor can progress naturally. He extolls the virtue of followers coming to him for diagnosis of their illnesses and injuries so he can prescribe spiritual treatment. He has no medical training. He states in the same 1986 edition that God can bless NO marriage (he emphasized the no, not me) that goes against parental counsel. Talk about putting God in a box! From his "Establishing Biblical Standards of Courtship", the following page is supposed to be removed from the text by teenage sons and daughters: "… demonstrate your commitment to God's plan for courtship instead of man's philosophy of dating. …" The young person must say to his or her father, "I will wait for your full release before entering into marriage." The father, in turn, tells his daughter that "I will protect you from unqualified men." To his son the father says, "I will protect you from strange women." This covenant is "between a father and a son as witnessed by the Lord Jesus Christ," and must be signed by the child, the father, and the family's pastor. I could quote passages from his newsletters and text all night. I won't. Suffice it to say I would be very, very concerned about a woman receiving women's health advice, prenatal care, and labor/delivery/post partem care from an ATI trained "midwife" due to the total lack of actual, factual medical advice, and the emphasis on mysticism and seeing the devil lurking around every corner. Well, now I've opened the can of worms that I said I wouldn't open. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I made a flippant remark about the Cabbage Patch doll thing earlier, but it is true. CABBAGE PATCH DOLLS, people. When Gothard told me he wanted me to come work at headquarters he told me 2 things. Take out my other pair of earrings (I had two) and curl my hair. Curl. My. Hair. He is one of the creepiest people I have ever met. He is so weirdly invested in how young women look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Oh, and the courtship checklist! Yep, everyone must be subjected to the checklist...both parties and their parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Mommaduck, I am so sorry. I am just so sorry you were even threatened with one of those places. They are brutal prisons, daily beatings, sensory deprivation, occasional starvation, solitary confinement for even the most STUPID "offenses", etc. I cannot imagine. Those places are evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Cabbage Patch whaaaaaaaat? I always thought that was hyperbole of how crazy he is. It's always scary when you think you're reading an article in the Onion and nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I made a flippant remark about the Cabbage Patch doll thing earlier, but it is true. CABBAGE PATCH DOLLS, people. When Gothard told me he wanted me to come work at headquarters he told me 2 things. Take out my other pair of earrings (I had two) and curl my hair. Curl. My. Hair. He is one of the creepiest people I have ever met. He is so weirdly invested in how young women look. Whole booklets on how a woman should cut and style her hair. How to choose what colours of makeup to use (he's into the Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn typing, if I remember correctly...honestly, one would think he was a closet drag queen). He teaches how women can and should tie a scarf. Etc, etc. I had a friend's son that used to work at headquarters...drawing sketches for future publications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I made a flippant remark about the Cabbage Patch doll thing earlier, but it is true. CABBAGE PATCH DOLLS, people. When Gothard told me he wanted me to come work at headquarters he told me 2 things. Take out my other pair of earrings (I had two) and curl my hair. Curl. My. Hair. He is one of the creepiest people I have ever met. He is so weirdly invested in how young women look. Creepy is EXACTLY it! His one chapter on clothing is all about how people obsess about clothing because of the sin of pride, and then he prescribes exactly what a woman can and cannot wear and makes the rules so tight that she pretty much has to obsess about her appearance in order to not sin. Any dude who has to spend that much time worried about skirts, and blouses, and hair, and underthings, and ankles, and eye shadow colors, and ....has a serious thought life problem and should seek help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Whole booklets on how a woman should cut and style her hair. How to choose what colours of makeup to use (he's into the Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn typing, if I remember correctly...honestly, one would think he was a closet drag queen). He teaches how women can and should tie a scarf. Etc, etc. I had a friend's son that used to work at headquarters...drawing sketches for future publications Didn't he live with his mother until she died? And never married? Maybe he is a closet drag queen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The one friend I had (we aren't friends anymore, because we never went to Advanced Seminar) was so obsessed over her lists and outlines, she pretty much would forget things around her. Someone could say hi to her in the grocery and she wouldn't remember to say hello back or even acknowledge the person until she was already out of the store...then she would kick herself for being so "absent minded" (uhm, no, just so worried about being perfect that she forgot the "love thy neighbour" at times). I loved this woman as a dear older sister and I was ready to jump in as a young mother. Watching her was enough for my husband to not be so thrilled about the whole Gothard thing. Attending Basic Seminar reminded me that I had sat through this before, as a child. Reading up on it a few years later and things about my childhood started to click in. The sin of being the daughter of my father and his sins...the secretiveness of my adoption...the threats...the one time my mother tried to pray over me. It's just all clicked...and my folks weren't even heavy into church! My stepfather had grown up outside of Chicago...Gothard was big right across the border with ties into Chi-town. I was put on an IFB bus every week. It didn't matter if my half brother went...only that I did. I don't know...so much clicked. Reading about Hephzibah House was traumatic when I connected it to what my friend had told me about where she had disappeared to...then the SOB of a husband of hers tried to cry Saviour over how he "rescued" her by marrying her. *gags* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Didn't he live with his mother until she died? And never married? Maybe he is a closet drag queen. I think he almost married once...if I remember correctly, his mother disapproved (?) (does this sound like the movie Psycho to you?) He never married, never had children, no degree in any specialty...yet people go to him for advice, judges turn over children to him for reprogramming, churches treat him like a prophet...and many children raised under his teachings become embittered, fearful, and lose everyone they held dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 He is not the only "pastor" who believes this stuff. I don't know if Gothard had any influence over that big mega church in Hammond, Indiana (oh, why can't I remember it's name????? I need to go look it up), but they held seminars at their church in which the pastor, Bill Hyles, talked about arranging marriages, approving the uniforms of the female staff (even for VBS, the church paid for uniforms...just for females...the men did not have any real restrictions placed on them) and he would conduct faux "personnel meetings" on stage in which he demonstrated to other pastors how to pick his secretary's clothes...one of the skirts had a white flounce or something on it (oh, yes, I was there...it was during the short period of time that my parents sent me to a very fundamentalist school and they required all of the teens to spend a week at these training seminars - one of the reasons I was removed from the school since my dad flipped out when he found out about some of the "traiing"). Anyway, the flounce, ruffle, inset, whatever it was was very obviously a decoration to the skirt. But, he told the pastors that this skirt should be rejected because someone might think that the woman's slip was showing. It went on and on and on. My friends and I were so mortified that we decided we better completely tune it out before our brains exploded. We snuck our contraband nail polish into the balcony and sat up there free of chaperones, polishing our nails and making designs on the tops of our feet which would never show because we had to wear knee socks with our skirts. Oh yeah, there was a brief lecture on appropriate stocking colors, and shoe styles. He also was very obsessed with women's hair and this makes me wonder if he hadn't attended some Gothard seminars. Wow, it's been a long time since I talked about that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Michelle* Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Is this a regional thing? I've never heard of Gothard except on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Is it just me, or does that younger girl with the dress gathered back have something of a don't-mess-with-me-air? I bet she's gonna be a troublemaker. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Oh wait, I thought of something else. No lace around the collar. That's considered sexy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Yes, Hyles is another nutjob. One of the IFB churches I was part of was big on Hyles-Anderson (one of the stories from there is how bustier girls were instructed to put bandaids over their nipples because they were too perky and would show through their blouses). Another former IFB pastor of mine I just found out is on the board at BJU (also not good). Pensacola (Abeka) is practically LIBERAL compared to Hyles-Anderson. I would not doubt if Hyles and Gothard are strongly connected (kinda like politics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Oh wait, I thought of something else. No lace around the collar. That's considered sexy. THAT I did not know. Most of the Gothardites I knew used lace...very popular in the late eighties and early nineties on church dresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Interesting pull up in a "Dear Gothard" type message. http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2013/03/gothard-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-victim/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 THAT I did not know. Most of the Gothardites I knew used lace...very popular in the late eighties and early nineties on church dresses. It's in another of his newsletters. He's not totally opposed to lace, just not around the neck line because that is sexy according to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 It's in another of his newsletters. He's not totally opposed to lace, just not around the neck line because that is sexy according to him. That's weird to me. I'd consider it juvenile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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