Anyone else have kids who resist WWS??

[TKDmom]

My dd12 is resistant to almost all school work right now (unless it involves reading fantasy novels or Jane Austen  :tongue_smilie: ). She had a major meltdown this morning over math. I almost posted a thread with a few  :banghead:  :cursing:   :banghead: .

 

Later this morning it was time to do WWS. She WILL NOT complete her assignments. I don't know what to do with her. I used the 7-week sample, and everything was great for the first 6 weeks, so I bought the book. Lo, and behold, we get to week 8 and she suddenly hates that book with a passion. We're on week 9 now. It's taking us at least couple of weeks to finish one week's worth of work, because she can't or won't finish a day's worth of work in one day, and some days she doesn't even try before she starts shouting at me that it doesn't make any sense. She refuses to allow me to help her, and she won't read the directions back to me because she "already knows what it says." Gah! Can I just insert another  :banghead:

 

I'm at a loss for how to help this child. She wants to be a writer, but refuses to complete writing assignments. She definitely marches to the beat of her own drum. Remember the discussion about Cloud Children from a few years back? She definitely lives in the clouds. 

 

Should I try to gently push her through WWS? Switch her to something more free form? I have several creative writing resources (The Creative writer, several writing prompt books, etc.). I also have the Writer's Jungle, and I'm starting to lean more and more towards a Bravewriter philosophy and CM principles in general.

 

Soo...I don't know what I'm really asking. Advice? Commiseration? Questions that I should be asking myself so I can stop beating my head on walls?

[fourisenough]

She sounds like most 12-year old girls. I've survived a couple of them recently! But notice below, they're both now in school. I'd stick with WWS if you like it.

[MicheleinMN]

My 13 yo dd hates everything about school and math and WWS especially.  My thoughts, as we just started back to school this week, are "tough."  With my dd it is definitely an attitude problem more than a WWS or math problem, so since changing those won't really fix it, I am left with facing the real issue, her bad attitude.  I'm working on how to handle it/her, and how to do it respectfully rather than heavy-handedly.  

 

Commiseration is the best I can offer right now! 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, it sounds like you have more going on than just WWS issues, right? Sounds like puberty-related mood swings, frustration, or something.   :grouphug: to you both for that, I don't really have any good solutions there . . . 

 

But I will say that WWS frustrates the heck out of me sometimes.  Ok, a lot of the time.  I just about threw it across the room this week, we're on the Research section, weeks 28-30.  I have concluded that what I'm hating about it is that it takes something relatively simple, and makes it so complex and convoluted that my kid can't really tell what it is she's supposed to be doing.  I've actually decided to teach these lessons myself, applying them to her own topics, I just can't hack our way through WWS anymore.  

 

So, again, I don't have a solution for you, but I do commiserate - it is *not* crazy to find WWS extremely frustrating!!!

[texasmama]

My 10 and 12 year olds are using WWS.  The 10 year old started this year, and the 12 year old resumed in the middle from his work on WWS last year.  They both request to be at elbow while doing it.  Today's lesson for the 12 year old required quite a bit of parental involvement, but it was billed by SWB as a "very difficult" one.  It went well, but I had to do it with him.  I am currently teaching my 10 year old how to do a summary outline, rather than a majorly detailed one.  I worked backwards with it, asking him to choose a topic for a four paragraph essay and then write an outline for it.  We then fleshed it out orally.  I'm hoping that will help him.  I like the program and I can "see" where it is going, but I also understand the difficulty of it for kids.  Writing is my strength, so I can take WWS and run with it, as needed.  Though it is written to the student, in my experience it does need heavy parental involvement at the beginning and then again in the middle.  Both boys are working through it half pace, so it will take the 10 year old two years to finish WWS1.  The 12 year old will finish the second half this year.  He is a reluctant writer so I am grateful for the detailed hand-holding of the program and am willing to treat it as a program which needs a lot of my involvement.  I am hoping that the 10 year old will be able to learn the basics and be a bit more independent.

[My3girls]

Hmmm... Maybe, I am missing something. We are only on week 2, but I was just thinking today that it seemed too easy. Maybe, it's because my dd is 6th grade or we just haven't gotten far enough into it?

[TKDmom]

Hmmm... Maybe, I am missing something. We are only on week 2, but I was just thinking today that it seemed too easy. Maybe, it's because my dd is 6th grade or we just haven't gotten far enough into it?

 

The first 3 weeks are basically a review of WWE, so yes, it should be easy. My dd was finishing 6th grade when we started it and it was fine at first.

[TKDmom]

Well, it sounds like you have more going on than just WWS issues, right? Sounds like puberty-related mood swings, frustration, or something.   :grouphug: to you both for that, I don't really have any good solutions there . . . 

 

But I will say that WWS frustrates the heck out of me sometimes.  Ok, a lot of the time.  I just about threw it across the room this week, we're on the Research section, weeks 28-30.  I have concluded that what I'm hating about it is that it takes something relatively simple, and makes it so complex and convoluted that my kid can't really tell what it is she's supposed to be doing.  I've actually decided to teach these lessons myself, applying them to her own topics, I just can't hack our way through WWS anymore.  

 

So, again, I don't have a solution for you, but I do commiserate - it is *not* crazy to find WWS extremely frustrating!!!

 

Yes!! She is being a pain in the rear all. the. time. She wants to go live with Grandma for a week just to get away from us. I'd be inclined to send her off this weekend if she didn't have other commitments.

 

Unfortunately, I've had little success with any of SWB's materials. I don't know why I thought this would be different. It all looks so nice to my logical, concrete little brain, but dd is much more abstract and non-conformist than I am. I think it's the baby-steps that drive her crazy. She had the same problem with the incremental steps in Math Mammoth.

 

I talked it over with her this afternoon, and she is DYING to do a creative writing class. I had actually signed her up for one with a local co-op, but it was at the same time as Drama Club, and she chose drama. So now I'm looking at ways to consistently, systematically implement writing using CM and Bravewriter ideas. And I printed out a few weeks of The Creative Writer for her to start tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the commiseration. We had just a really rough start today, and I needed to vent. And bang my virtual head on a brick wall. ;)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Not to rain on your parade, but we found The Creative Writer kinda dry and boring . . . we had better luck with Writing Magic by Gail Carson Levine.  Just sayin'.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hmmm... Maybe, I am missing something. We are only on week 2, but I was just thinking today that it seemed too easy. Maybe, it's because my dd is 6th grade or we just haven't gotten far enough into it?

 

The first 10 weeks are easy - my dd did them in 4th grade.  It gets wayyyyyy more complicated as you go along.

[catholicmommy]

My daughter (12 yr old) LOVED the Creative Writer.  It turned writing into her favorite subject.  After the first level, we are now doing OYAN and saving things like WWS for another year? or maybe not at all. WWS made us crazy here too. I wish I could just get the WWS dummies guide, so I would understand the basic goal and final destination so I could teach it myself. I agree it can be maddening at times in it's complexity, though some people really work well with that style.

 

 

[lewelma]

We have not been able to use it as a 'written to the student' type of curriculum. When I tried, ds just could not do the work.  And I firmly believe that if he *can*, he *will*.  So basically, he could not do the program as written.  But because I really love what SWB has put to paper, I made the effort to become more involved and actually *teach* the material.  I needed to explain and model many of the assignments before he could do them.  But using that process every week, we have found the WWS to be very effective.  Here is an example of how I have done an assignment with him.  It is from this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/348864-my-evaluation-of-numerous-writing-curricula/

 

x-post

 

Funny, I was just thinking about writing this idea up on the k-8 writing workshop, but am happy to put it here. :001_smile:

We are on Week 16, which is where WWS switches from Narrative writing to more descriptive writing (this is a simplification). The first assignment is to write a description of someone you know.

Well, my son has always done non-fiction report writing -- not a story to be seen, so I knew he would be completely flummoxed by this assignment. After he had outlined the example and then read SWB's description of the type of writing, we had our conversation.

First, he did not actually understand the list that she had given: physical appearance, sound of voice, what others think, portrayals, character qualities, challenges and difficulties, accomplishments, habits, behavior, expressions of face and body, mind/intellectual capabilities, talents and abilities, self disciplines, religious beliefs, clothing, dress, economic status, fame/notoriety/prestige, family traditions. Specifically "expressions of face and body" took him a while to see body language as falling in the category. And what exactly is the difference between habits and character qualities? or mind/intellectual vs talents/abilities? So we discussed these and others.

Next, I started with the overarching idea that a description has a purpose. You don't just write down random bits about something. I told him about a writing class I took in University where I had written a 12 page description of a place I knew and loved. I had to read it to the small group for critique, and when I was done there was a discussion. They told me that they knew there was something wrong the whole way through the reading, but could not pinpoint it until I got to the description of the dock, which I described as 8 ft by 6ft, and then they KNEW the problem. I was putting in detail that did not move my description forward. I was trying to write a nastalgic piece that also expressed my enthusiasm and awe of the area, and I was measuring the size of the dock. It just didn't fit, and that type of description riddled the piece. My ds then said "you should have said it was 'large enough to lay down and luxuriate in the sun.'" Yep, I should have. And he got it, just like that.

Now, we discussed a good example of description in literature that we had both read. Phileas Fogg in Around the World in 80 days. The description of this character is critical to the entire story, so it seemed like a good choice. We went through the entire list and tried to think about how Phileas was described, recognizing that not all categories were used, and critically, how was each description putting forward the overarching idea that Phileas had to "have his own way" in all things and was completely rigid. Certain aspects of the list are unimportant to this focus, so we noted that. We did the whole list, but here are just a few examples:

physical appearance: he is dressed "just so", shiny shoes, perfectly groomed,
sound of voice: unimportant
what others think: people thought he was odd
portrayals: unimportant
character qualities: fastidious, punctual, tidy, careful, routine driven
challenges and difficulties: handling anything that disrupted his routine
accomplishments: unimportant
habits: lots here. always stepped out with left foot, etc.... had a lot here

We discussed how this description was critical to the story line.

Ok, next we did our own description together for practice. He decided to do his father. So *what* aspect of his father was he going to describe? His father is a very different man in a business meeting vs playing a game with his boys. I stressed that doing a single aspect of his life would make the person 1 dimensional, and to rectify this you would need a longer description, but that today we were doing a short description. He decided to do his father in an office setting. So once again we use SWB's list:

physical appearance: suit, fancy watch, short hair, etc. I stress that things like wearing a suit are only added if they add an important detail to the description. Is he the *only* person wearing a suit? (yes, he is a civilian working at defense). Does he wear the same suit as everyone else or different style (conformity), etc. Don't add it, if it does not matter.
sound of voice: discussed that the sound of a radio announcers voice would be very important, but no so for an author. Decided that his father's tone was unimportant, but his use of stress and pauses is critically important to keeping people interested in a meeting.
what others think: hummm. Important? depends on your purpose. I gave the example that my husband told once that someone came to him for advice because he was recommended by a third party. On the phone, the person clearly did not think highly of dh, so right before the meeting, dh purposely removed his suit coat, looked a bit slovenly, shuffled his steps, slouched in the chair when he sat down etc. All this to augment the person's initial opinion. Then, when the conversation began, he leans forward, makes eye contact, and blows the guy away. This description is important to the narrative. In other writing situations, the opinions of others would not matter. It is all about making the description *relevant*.

Ok, so we go through the rest of the list.

This takes an hour.

On the next day, we begin to work on his description of his brother to write up. (This also takes an hour :tongue_smilie:) He had typed up the list on the day before, and we print it at a table and use it as an outline. He decides he will describe his brother from the point of view of being an outdoor kid. I remind him that he is not telling a narrative. That all of the details about being outside must go to describing his brother's traits. I reiterate this every 5 minutes during out hour-long discussion, and then again numerous times on the next day when he writes it up (I'm guessing he will forget). We do have a discussion about the arrangement of the piece: does he want to describe each character quality in a separate paragraph (e.g.,determination) and give many outdoor examples within the paragraph. Or does he want to do each outdoor activity as a paragraph and put the character qualities within it. We discuss the implication of each. He goes for the second thinking it will be easier (and I think it will be).

Here are our notes that we put on the outline:

Physical appearance: dark hair, dishevelled, snottly nose (he decides not to add this), healthy, dusty, fingernails, pink cheeks, blue eyes, pockets bulging, shovel, dagger, large stick, camouflage, sturdy sandles, grip, tall, slender, wiry muscles.
sound of voice: unimportant
what others think: un
portrayals: un
character qualities: busy, focused, spontaneous, cooperative (there are more but we decide to include them in behaviour category below)
challenges and difficulties: un
accomplishments: un
habits: un
expressions un
mind: un
talents: un
self disciplines: un
religious: un
clothing: put into physical appearance
economic, fame, family: un
behaviour:
1) whacking bushes: vigorously, destruction, energetic, wild swinging motions, doesn't car about native, explosion, leaves flying,
2) Spying: bird calls, stealthy, exciting because secretive, slither, hide, mimic
3) building forts: challenging, difficult, shelter, cooperative, sunny day, drizzle, planning carefully, gatherer, knife
4) climbing trees: challenging, too hard, doesn't know own limitations, falls without complaint, scramble, slips, high up, relax at top

At first I ask all the questions to draw out the ideas, then I get him in the second half to ask me the questions. He comes up with 3 he likes: Why (motivation), when (circumstance), how (method). We discuss these questions and make notes about them so he can use them again.

That same day, he writes the first paragraph on description
The next day he writes the next 4 paragraphs (this takes him more than an hour, but he works independently)

We have not yet edited, but I have included the rough draft in the next post.

And then we REST. This was a very difficult assignment for both of us I think, but it went very well. I think I will have him do another description of a person where he makes up the outline himself, *then* we move on to week 17.

Well, that got long. Hope that answers your questions, SaDonna. And by the way, this sounds very organized now that I wrote it up, but I just did it on the fly when I realized that he was seriously clueless.

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Here is DS(11) description of his brother. (unedited)

My brother, B****, loves to play in the woods. His light brown hair is often dishevelled and black with dirt contrasting greatly with his sanguine cheeks. When he is in the forest, his bright blue eyes sparkle with joy and exhilaration. Sometimes B****'s entire body is covered with dark brown splotches of dirt and he is often dressed in a dusty brown shirt, shorts, and sturdy sandles. Normally, his pockets are bulging with pine cones, twigs, pebbles, and dirt. He likes to carry a home-made dagger and a huge stick for whacking bushes. Altogether, B**** often makes a striking figure.

My brother loves to climb trees because climbing them is challenging, and my brother loves a challenge. The trees he climbs are often far too hard for him, and he often falls. However, when he falls, he never complains but continues to climb the same tree. Often, while at the top of a tree, B**** will enjoy the view or chat with a friend.

For exercise, my brother likes to destroy bushes with a very large stick. He savours the obliteration of the plants and the explosion of the leaves. B**** attacks the bushes energetically with wild swinging motions. He does not care whether he destroys native or non-native plants, but rather goes for the most succulent because they explode the best.

After he obliterates a few bushes, my brother likes to build huts. He builds them for fun and because they are very challenging and difficult to build. All of the forts that he makes are always carefully planned out and constructed to make them stronger. One thing my brother is very proud of is that his forts use all natural materials. For example, instead of string, B**** uses flax strips to tie together sticks.

My brother also enjoys spying. The secretiveness, the stealth, and the hiding excite him. He has learnt to imitate nature in many ways. He makes rustling noises while walking like a black bird, never uses the same trails, and mimics bird calls to communicate with his friends.



So the next step is to edit.

He clearly needs some sort of ending.
He also needs to work on some more interesting words, and to remove repetitious words.

but overall, quite a nice first effort that he wrote himself.

 

[Kim C]

 

 

I'm at a loss for how to help this child. She wants to be a writer, but refuses to complete writing assignments. She definitely marches to the beat of her own drum. Remember the discussion about Cloud Children from a few years back? She definitely lives in the clouds. 

 

Should I try to gently push her through WWS? Switch her to something more free form? I have several creative writing resources (The Creative writer, several writing prompt books, etc.). I also have the Writer's Jungle, and I'm starting to lean more and more towards a Bravewriter philosophy and CM principles in general.

 

Soo...I don't know what I'm really asking. Advice? Commiseration? Questions that I should be asking myself so I can stop beating my head on walls?

 

I can soooo commiserate. My DS 12 and I have been working on WWS 1 for a year now. He does not like WWS, so we have been working through it slowly. Periodically I think about just dropping WWS, but then I re-read lewelma's posts about WWS and decide to keep going. :)  She just makes it seem so doable.

 

My son wants to be an author, so we have several creative writing books that we use when we need a break from WWS. I also have the Writer's Jungle. I've looked at IEW. I think part of the problem is that WWS is parts-to-whole and my DS does better with whole-to-parts. He needs to see the big picture and then work on the details.

 

I recently downloaded the first few weeks of WWS 2 and my DS said it likes it and wants to do it, but I have a feeling it will be the same frustrations all over again. I'm not sure what we will use. 

 

Is it the 'baby steps' that drives your daughter crazy? Would she do better if you used a curriculum that taught the big ideas and then refined the process?

 

Kim

[Susie in CA]

WWS is easy in the beginning, but it picks up quite a bit. We only do half of the program in one year and finish the second half the next year. This has worked well for us. Both my dss were not able to do some of the assignments in one sitting. And as Ruth has said we often need to discuss the assignments and/or even work through them together.

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Yes....but he's resistant because it's challenging for him. He needs to grow into those skills so we keep at it together.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, as Ruth's posts help remind me, you are not failing with WWS, or using the program wrong, if you have to actually *teach* it!!  Something about how it's presented/written can make an insecure mama feel like if her 5th grader can't use it independently as written, they are behind or something - this is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!   (sorry for shouting, but this excites my passion!)

 

I find parts of it usable as written, and parts of it completely impossible.  But the skills are all there, and need to be imparted one way or another, so I'm trying to glean what is crucial from these research lessons and teach it myself.  But it's definitely not been an open-and-go program here, for the most part. 

[My3girls]

Good to know that it does get more challenging.  A little worried about hearing that parts are impossible, though.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I should have said "Impossible to use as written" meaning, that the child can read the instructions and do the lesson independently, with only the amount of involvement by you indicated in the TM.  Not impossible altogether!  Although I did decide that the research chapters, while not impossible, were more trouble than they are worth to try and do as written.  I'm not ditching the ideas though, so instead of Week 29's Chronological Narrative of a Past Event, Description of a Person, Description of a Place about Julius Caesar, my dd will write about the impressionist movement, started in Paris, and one artist of the movement.  She'll take her own notes from library books we've gathered on the topic, and write an essay that is meaningful to her history studies.   Instead of Week 30's Sequence: Natural Process, Scientific Description, about the Digestive System, she will write about a topic she chooses from her current science unit on cosmology and the solar system.  I might have her go ahead and do Week 31's Biographical sketch of Marie Antoinette; her last history composition was a biographical sketch of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, but I'd like her to explore more deeply how to put together a good bio sketch, and I think it's a topic she'll be interested in writing about, as she studied Marie Antoinette in history last year.

 

So, that's kinda what I mean by impossible:  both "written in a complicated, difficult to use and understand manner" and "taking too much time away from the topics we are studying in history and science that I'd rather have her write about."  Clear as mud?  ;)  :D

[Penguin]

I also teach WWS and have DS write the compositions on topics from his current studies.  For us, WWS has become a launching point and a framework instead of a curriculum.

[Ali in OR]

We didn't get far with WWS--we were part of the beta test group, so I know it also wasn't in final form--but it wasn't a great fit for older dd. I still have it, may use it with younger dd, but haven't yet. Basically my dd renamed it Writing With A Lot of Work. It does seem that there should be an easier way to get where it is going (I'm sure I learned how to write an outline faster and more efficiently just by doing it). And I could see how it would be frustrating for someone who loves writing because you're not really writing your own material. Lots of outlines of other writings and written narrations basically, but not exploring your own ideas. Again, we did not go through the whole book, so maybe this changes later on. My kids will go to public high school, so I was also concerned that they wouldn't get to where they need to be soon enough with that program. I want them to hit academic essays at an earlier age than high school. We're doing MCT for that and this year we're doing more informal writing too (journaling, "in-class" essays, 5-paragraph form, stories--whatever I think might get asked of them in high school). I have no doubt that families that can implement WWS can reap great rewards, but we weren't willing to take on the pain of implementing it!

[RootAnn]

we had better luck with Writing Magic by Gail Carson Levine.  Just sayin'.

:001_tt1: Loved Writing Magic! (Added link for you.) 

 

Great for a once-a-week creative writing or something more often. (Just be aware that a few of the writing activities take longer than a day to complete.)

 

We used it as a break between CW Homer (which didn't work for us) and starting WWS last spring. Everyone had a good time.

 

Might be a good way to break up WWS into smaller chunks if you decide to stick with it, too.

[sauncha]

My daughter doesn't love WWS so I work slowly on it. I work at a library and stumbled across Teaching writing: Structure and Style. It's expensive but I was lucky that my library had it and they have smaller packages that cost a bit less. But having used the course on my daughter I have to say that it is worth the price. It comes with DVDs to show yourself on how to teach. Or you could possibly get by with just the student intensives where the teacher teaches the children in workshops.

 

My daughter loves it. The teacher is goofy enough to keeps kid entertained and he presents his writing style in steps that are easy for the kids to implement. The course has reinvigorated my daughter’s writing and I no longer have to ask over and over on essay questions in other subjects for her to write more than once sentence. The method he teaches can be used for reports or creative writing and if you use the teaching version you can implement it for curriculum for various ages. It can be used as a nice breather when you need a break from WWS or other writing programs.

 

 

[SoCal Sandra]

At first my sons called it "Writing Will Kill." But they have since recanted!

 

My sons are creative writers and at first they bristled at the intentionally slow pace of WWS. I liked the structured thinking that came from WWS1, so we agreed to beta test WWS2. While they still disliked the way they had to follow the same small, repeated steps, dss stopped complaining as those steps became easier and easier.

 

I noticed, too, that as they matured they began relating to it differently. They began seeing it as skill building. One thing I like about WWS is that it doesn't talk down to the student. The instructions are written in an intelligent, academic tone and with time a student will rise to that standard.

 

Your daughter is 12 and that can be an age of resistance to everything, especially everything that mom wants. Since she relates to other school work in the same way, the problem may not be the curriculum.

 

It takes time. If you see merit in the curriculum I encourage you to stick with it. HTH.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Sandra, how old are your sons using WWS?  Results of my (highly informal!) opinion poll suggest it works better when kids are older, just wondering if your kids fit that pattern?

[SoCal Sandra]

Sandra, how old are your sons using WWS?  Results of my (highly informal!) opinion poll suggest it works better when kids are older, just wondering if your kids fit that pattern?

 

Somewhat older.

 

They began WWS1 in 6th grade, WWS2 (beta test) in 7th grade and WWS3 (beta test) will take them through the 8th grade (ages 131/2-14). I know the WWS materials say a student can begin WWS1 as early as 5th grade, but from what I've read, starting in 6th isn't necessarily a "late" start. Since there will be an optional WWS4 to shore up skills, it appears the program anticipates flexibility in the starting age because a student beginning WWS1 in 6th grade could skip the 4th volume in order to begin rhetoric in 9th grade.

 

Even though the content of WWS becomes more difficult, the skills increase and the student is therefore up to the challenge. So, I think age as a factor would be most relevant for WWS1, since the skills are just beginning and an older student may acquire them more quickly or easily.

 

I think a student beginning WWS1 at a younger age may just need to stick with it, if possible, because the combination of growing maturity and repeated use of the skills will make the curriculum easier with time. An older student will start off with more maturity (hopefully) and may have less of a learning curve.

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree completely.  The more time goes by the more I come to believe that WWS isn't the best fit for 5th graders, even bright/accelerated/good writers like mine was.  It's not that they can't do it, it's that they perhaps won't get as much from it as they will when they're a bit older/more mature.  And they will likely find it to be less difficult and perhaps appreciate it more a little later too.  It's the content, as well as the complexity of the lessons, which leads me to this conclusion.  I think it's a better 6th-8th grade program for sure. 

[SoCal Sandra]

Yes. Dss laugh when they remember how they called it "Writing Will Kill"  because they enjoy it so much now, and they recognize how it has made them better writers.

[texasmama]

I agree completely. The more time goes by the more I come to believe that WWS isn't the best fit for 5th graders, even bright/accelerated/good writers like mine was. It's not that they can't do it, it's that they perhaps won't get as much from it as they will when they're a bit older/more mature. And they will likely find it to be less difficult and perhaps appreciate it more a little later too. It's the content, as well as the complexity of the lessons, which leads me to this conclusion. I think it's a better 6th-8th grade program for sure.

I agree with this. Older ds started it the last half of 6th and is finishing it half pace over his entire seventh grade year. Younger ds will do it half pace over 5th and 6th grade. Both will have heavy support from me as they work through it.

[fluffybunny]

My ds did WWS when he was 11, and it was a struggle, even though I held his hand every step of the way. We got 3/4 way through, then switched to IEW WI level B. Oh wow! He loved it and still loves it (we're on the Continuation course now) and is writing well with minimal complaints. We enjoyed SWB's SOTW, but WWS didn't work for us. My ds is a whole to parts kid, and WWS works on parts to whole and it gives me a headache just remembering the struggles from last year. What I would do:

 

1. I would try a lot more hand holding. Read the instructions and everything else aloud to her while she relaxes on the sofa next to you. Check her understanding and discuss it with her. Walk her to the laptop or writing pad. Get a page up ready. Prop the book up on a bookstand for her. Help her write the first sentence. Move away for 10 minutes. Return and assist with any troubleshooting, and so on.

 

2. If it's still causing stress, switch to IEW WI

 

3. Return to WWS, if she wants to, when she's 14. Like others have said: WWS is deceptively difficult.

 

 

[TKDmom]

I should have said "Impossible to use as written" meaning, that the child can read the instructions and do the lesson independently, with only the amount of involvement by you indicated in the TM. Not impossible altogether! Although I did decide that the research chapters, while not impossible, were more trouble than they are worth to try and do as written. I'm not ditching the ideas though, so instead of Week 29's Chronological Narrative of a Past Event, Description of a Person, Description of a Place about Julius Caesar, my dd will write about the impressionist movement, started in Paris, and one artist of the movement. She'll take her own notes from library books we've gathered on the topic, and write an essay that is meaningful to her history studies. Instead of Week 30's Sequence: Natural Process, Scientific Description, about the Digestive System, she will write about a topic she chooses from her current science unit on cosmology and the solar system. I might have her go ahead and do Week 31's Biographical sketch of Marie Antoinette; her last history composition was a biographical sketch of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, but I'd like her to explore more deeply how to put together a good bio sketch, and I think it's a topic she'll be interested in writing about, as she studied Marie Antoinette in history last year.

 

I also teach WWS and have DS write the compositions on topics from his current studies. For us, WWS has become a launching point and a framework instead of a curriculum.

That is a Great idea!! So it sounds like I need to give up on the hope of writing being an independent subject. Sigh. There's only so much of me to go around, and I'm not a super-high energy person to begin with. I'm pretty much worn out for the day after helping the kids with math. And I've always hated writing. :tongue_smilie: but yeah, I just need to buckle down and get more involved.

 

Man, I don't know how anyone manages to successfully homeschool more than 2 children. I'm certainly struggling to get it all done.

 

Last night I decided I just need a House Elf. Then I can focus on all this school stuff and still manage to eat and have a clean house. :D

[TKDmom]

Oh, and as far as age goes, there was no way dd could have done WWS in 5th grade. We started it partway through 6th, and now she's officially a young 7th grader.

[TKDmom]

:001_tt1: Loved Writing Magic! (Added link for you.)

 

Great for a once-a-week creative writing or something more often. (Just be aware that a few of the writing activities take longer than a day to complete.)

 

We used it as a break between CW Homer (which didn't work for us) and starting WWS last spring. Everyone had a good time.

 

Might be a good way to break up WWS into smaller chunks if you decide to stick with it, too.

I checked out Writing magic a few months ago, but never opened it up before I had to return it to the library. I may check it out again.

[TKDmom]

At first my sons called it "Writing Will Kill." But they have since recanted!

 

My sons are creative writers and at first they bristled at the intentionally slow pace of WWS. I liked the structured thinking that came from WWS1, so we agreed to beta test WWS2. While they still disliked the way they had to follow the same small, repeated steps, dss stopped complaining as those steps became easier and easier.

 

I noticed, too, that as they matured they began relating to it differently. They began seeing it as skill building. One thing I like about WWS is that it doesn't talk down to the student. The instructions are written in an intelligent, academic tone and with time a student will rise to that standard.

 

Your daughter is 12 and that can be an age of resistance to everything, especially everything that mom wants. Since she relates to other school work in the same way, the problem may not be the curriculum.

 

It takes time. If you see merit in the curriculum I encourage you to stick with it. HTH.

That's very encouraging. Thank you.

 

At some point, writing will be outsourced. She inherited my...um...muley disposition. We have been butting heads since the night she was born, I think. And writing isn't an area where I'm confident enough to stand up to her objections. I can spend that energy on insisting that her math problem really does have a correct answer or that she will read more than the first 2 pages of a book that looks boring.

[Haiku]

She wants to be a writer, but refuses to complete writing assignments. 

 

SWB told me that kids who love to write probably won't enjoy WWS. We found that to be true with my dd. Unless your dd plans a career as an expository essay writer, WWS is not really the type of thing that natural writers might enjoy. I'd definitely switch to something else. When my dd, who always loved writing, started hating it when we were doing WWS, I switched and never looked back.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Tara, reading that statement by SWB was such an epiphany - and you are right.  I finally decided after listening to SWB's middle grades writing lectures again last night to hit "cancel" on my order of WWS 2, and just let it go . . . it can be simpler than this.  I don't want my dd and I to start dreading writing just because WWS is a bad fit for her style.

[Joyful_Journey]

SWB told me that kids who love to write probably won't enjoy WWS. We found that to be true with my dd. Unless your dd plans a career as an expository essay writer, WWS is not really the type of thing that natural writers might enjoy. I'd definitely switch to something else. When my dd, who always loved writing, started hating it when we were doing WWS, I switched and never looked back.

 

Tara - when you left WWS, what did you switch to?  I'm very tempted to abandon my plan to move on to WWS 2 next month, but I have no idea where to go from here? ???

[Haiku]

Tara - when you left WWS, what did you switch to?  I'm very tempted to abandon my plan to move on to WWS 2 next month, but I have no idea where to go from here? ???

 

We started working through School Composition by by William Henry Maxwell. It's a free vintage book from Google books, although you can also buy a newly reprinted version from Amazon for about $8. I like it because it teaches writing in a much more classical way than a lot of modern composition programs, but it is much simpler to use. It incorporates imitation, outlining, and word study, among other things. Dd likes it because the passages are more interesting to her and it's not as painfully detailed as WWS.

 

There is a follow-up called Writing in English by the same author.

[Mrs Twain]

We started working through School Composition by by William Henry Maxwell. It's a free vintage book from Google books, although you can also buy a newly reprinted version from Amazon for about $8. I like it because it teaches writing in a much more classical way than a lot of modern composition programs, but it is much simpler to use. It incorporates imitation, outlining, and word study, among other things. Dd likes it because the passages are more interesting to her and it's not as painfully detailed as WWS.

 

There is a follow-up called Writing in English by the same author.

I returned WWS1 a few weeks ago and started School Composition (Maxwell) per Tara's advice.  Wow!  I am so happy. (Thanks, Tara!)  What a well written, concise, easy to understand writing course.  I had been planning to use the first half of WWS this year with my 5th grader, but it is so wordy that I didn't think my son or I would be able to tolerate it.  It looks like School Composition will meet almost all of my goals that I had for WWS this year.   Also, School Composition utilizes a whole-to-parts philosophy which is going over well with my extremely logical son. 

 

FYI, I bought the "Bilbiobazaar edition" from Amazon which is a very nice printing in hardcover:

http://www.amazon.com/School-Composition-William-H-Maxwell/dp/0554756153/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379346125&sr=1-2&keywords=school+composition+maxwell

[Haiku]

I'm glad you like it, Mrs. T! This is the edition I bought.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks for the rec, Tara, I'm going to give this a try too.

[idnib]

Y'all are making me feel better. We are "behind" in WWE and are not going to get to WWS until 6th grade. Sounds like that might be better anyway.  

[Joyful_Journey]

We started working through School Composition by by William Henry Maxwell. It's a free vintage book from Google books, although you can also buy a newly reprinted version from Amazon for about $8. I like it because it teaches writing in a much more classical way than a lot of modern composition programs, but it is much simpler to use. It incorporates imitation, outlining, and word study, among other things. Dd likes it because the passages are more interesting to her and it's not as painfully detailed as WWS.

 

There is a follow-up called Writing in English by the same author.

 

Thanks Tara!  This does look good! :hurray:

[happycc]

All this talk about 12 yrs old is stressing me out. I think I will have to quicken my pace with certain curriculums so we can get through them before my girls hit 12 yrs old. ;) 

 

What are some good curriculums with hormonal argumentative teenagers? 

 

Patty patty geometry? 

Nanonwrimo?

 

[TKDmom]

All this talk about 12 yrs old is stressing me out. I think I will have to quicken my pace with certain curriculums so we can get through them before my girls hit 12 yrs old. ;)

 

 

:lol: Sounds like a good plan.

 

Now that my dd is old enough for our church's youth group and one of the local co-ops that is serious about providing quality instruction, it's been wonderful to let her get out and away from the family. She went on a 6-hour beach day with her youth group today. During that time, it was so nice to hear dd4 play around on the piano without any yelling from a hormonal, intolerant sister. I can see how good  it is for all of us that she can finally have some space away from us. Just a random thought totally unrelated to WWS. ;)

[happycc]

I'm really scared. I am going to have 3 hormonal girls on my hands around the corner!!! 

 

 

I am still recovering what the first three teenagers did! 

[shanezomom]

Hi Bonnie, have you ever considered signing your 12 yr dd up for one of Julie Bogart's (BraveWriter) online classes? Here is the class she recommends as a starting point: http://www.bravewriter.com/program/online-classes/class-list/kidswrite-basic/     

Rhonda

[Haiku]

Just a head's up ... BraveWriter is about the most opposite approach to writing from WWS that you can find. ;)

[shanezomom]

That's why I wondered if it might be a good approach for them. And the external teacher to be accountable to.

[PeterPan]

Yes!! She is being a pain in the rear all. the. time. She wants to go live with Grandma for a week just to get away from us. I'd be inclined to send her off this weekend if she didn't have other commitments.

 

Unfortunately, I've had little success with any of SWB's materials. I don't know why I thought this would be different. It all looks so nice to my logical, concrete little brain, but dd is much more abstract and non-conformist than I am. I think it's the baby-steps that drive her crazy. She had the same problem with the incremental steps in Math Mammoth.

 

I talked it over with her this afternoon, and she is DYING to do a creative writing class. I had actually signed her up for one with a local co-op, but it was at the same time as Drama Club, and she chose drama. So now I'm looking at ways to consistently, systematically implement writing using CM and Bravewriter ideas. And I printed out a few weeks of The Creative Writer for her to start tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the commiseration. We had just a really rough start today, and I needed to vent. And bang my virtual head on a brick wall. ;)

Didn't read the entire thread, but yes my dd who is not a fan of WWS turns out to really enjoy Creative Writer.  She asked to do several books of it this year instead of WWS2, so I'm letting her.  As for getting through WWS1, well we did, but we cheated, hehe.  I highlighted the jist of every single lesson to make SURE she got it and could do it totally independently.  As you say, that age is kind of cantankerous and wants to work alone, even if they can't.  So I highlighted, she worked, and we had peace.  Two, we utterly skipped that research section and did a National History Day project instead.  You might consider it, given what you've described.  You can do drama, a paper, a display board, a documentary (what dd did), etc.  It's research with a purpose.  :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

I second skipping the research section! We've done that too, and are totally winging it with a research project for history and another for science.  The research section is the low point of the whole book, IMO.