Shocked that this book is on the Grade 11 common core reading list. Scary!

[Χά�ων]

LOL

 

Well either way, I do appreciate you all sharing. It has helped me to understand more of why on earth anything like this could be deemed appropriate, although I still don't agree.

Sometimes it is nice to converse but not agree, it expands ones minds and thinking. In case the thread is locked, I do want to say thanks for sharing and discussing this.

[TeacherZee]

I think what she's getting at is that we should be careful about forming and voicing opinion as "definitive" based only a superficial understanding of excerpts from a larger work, those possibly taken out of context.

 

That might be true.

 

Well, I've read the Bible from cover to cover more than once.

[teeniebeenie6]

I don't understand all the hate. Can't we respect each other's opinions without attacking?

 

I just don't understand why a book that MANY people don't approve of for their kids is on approved/recommended list. There are so many other great books. Can't this book be one that parents provide to their children if they feel it is important for them to read?

[Irishmommy]

 

Raising hand...I was one of those "victims" in the classroom. This book changed my life in that it helped me to see how filthy and disgusting/perverse a crime that rape/incest really are. It taught me that it WAS not normal, nor MY fault. It taught me, along with our discussions in class, that RAPE is RAPE, not sex. The moment I said, NO, it was rape. It didn't matter that he was my boyfriend. It was still just as vile and disgusting as the scene in TBE. I had NEVER been told that. I had never revealed my abuse to anyone because I felt like I would have been blamed (and honestly, I probably would have been). After that class, I entered therapy, and am such a better person because of it. So, yeah, consider my reading of that book a catalyst for BIG change in my life. Would I have been ready for that at 17, no. Which is why I believe it is the choice of the parent to decide what books his/her child reads in school.

 

AND, I still hate Algebra. I am sorry to be so inflamatory on that point... "0)

[Stellalarella]

How about a poll....

Is it "literature" or is it "satanic"?

But you can't answer that question unless you answer this question

Are you :)  lurking or posting on this thread for the educational discussion or just to enjoy the forum-fight-drama?  he he.  :) 

 

I read this thread last night, ate some bad cheese, went to bed and had horrible dreams about the subject matter.  I don't think I could read every word of TBE unless I had saved up for therapy afterwards.  This thread was enough to put me over the edge....or maybe it was the cheese.  IDK.  

 

SOmebody just post a picture of themselves wearing a kilt, eating a cupcake and reading TBE and let's be done with it.

[Irishmommy]

OOps! I quoted the wrong post!

 

To clarify...I was not a pedophile, I was the victim. And, I still hate Algebra!

[suzybluecheese]

LOL

 

Well either way, I do appreciate you all sharing. It has helped me to understand more of why on earth anything like this could be deemed appropriate, although I still don't agree.

 

Ah, that's nice.

 

Well, I never quite understood why anyone would want to see Passion of the Christ, but it made over $370,000,000.

[Crimson Wife]

How on earth are any of these suitable replacements for a seminal work about dire poverty and disenfranchisement, written by one of the greatest novelists alive?

When I think of "seminal work about dire poverty and disenfranchisement written by one of the greatest novelists" I think of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath". But of course, Steinbeck doesn't serve to check the same blocks as Toni Morrison in this P.C. age...

[Χά�ων]

Ah, that's nice.

 

Well, I never quite understood why anyone would want to see Passion of the Christ, but it made over $370,000,000.

I watched a documentary on why it was such a big seller. If I find it I will post, unless it is 3 months from now, then I will just PM you.

[Crimson Wife]

Did they change it?? I suddenly feel old.

Maybe when the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21?

 

One of the girls who graduated high school with me had to go before a judge to get legal emancipation as a 17 1/2 y.o. high school grad in the '90's because her parents weren't going to help her pay for college and she couldn't qualify for financial aid as an independent student while still a minor. So it's not a super-new thing for the age of majority to be 18+.

[Χά�ων]

Dearest Algebra,

 

Despite all the slanderous words against you, I still love you.

[Χά�ων]

Maybe when the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21?

 

One of the girls who graduated high school with me had to go before a judge to get legal emancipation as a 17 1/2 y.o. high school grad in the '90's because her parents weren't going to help her pay for college and she couldn't qualify for financial aid as an independent student while still a minor. So it's not a super-new thing for the age of majority to be 18+.

Not helping me feel any younger.

[Mandy in TN]

I did see those, but they are not substitutes for this title.

How so? They are titles that deal with similar themes without the graphic content of The Bluest Eye. You are not going to find an exact replica without the graphic content. If that's what you want, just pull out the white out.

 

Summer of My German Soldier is jr high level. It deals with themes of abuse and discrimination. It deals with the theme of identity and confusion. The German boy isn't a Nazi, but he loves his country. It isn't as dark, harsh, or graphic as The Bluest Eye and it isn't at the same reading level, but it opens up discussion of darker topics.

 

Farewell to Manzanar depicts the disintegration of a family as the result of the Japanese internment camps in America in WW2. It shows discrimination and how sometimes people don't even recognize it and the impact of that discrimination on a female who is part of the minority. Again, this is a jr high level book, but it opens discussion of darker topics without being as dark as The Bluest Eye.

 

I have not read Black Like Me, but the author darkened his skin with medication and dye and describe the extreme prejudice against African American men in the South in 1959. It has been in print for over 50 years. It is not fiction and apparently it does offer some insight into the hopelessness and despair produce by segregation and discrimination. It is high school level reading and I assume will lead to discussions about living as with discrimination.

 

Little Altars Everywhere is an adult book that is a fairly easy read as far as reading level. There is mother-son rape, alcoholism, abuse. There are not the graphic descriptions that are in The Bluest Eye and it is not as hopeless, but it certainly opens these topics for discussion. Also, while Rebecca Wells is not a Nobel winning author she is an award winning author. The depth of this work is not as haunting or as gut wrenching as The Bluest Eye, but Little Altars Everywhere is not a trash romance novel.

 

If you want Toni Morrison, you can take it for what it is. If you want books that cover some of these topics in a more gentle fashion in order to open discussion of darker topics in order to pave the way for books like The Bluest Eye in college, then, off the top of my head, this is what I could come up with.

 

Please, someone add others.

Mandy

[bumblesmama]

When I think of "seminal work about dire poverty and disenfranchisement written by one of the greatest novelists" I think of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath". But of course, Steinbeck doesn't serve to check the same blocks as Toni Morrison in this P.C. age...

 

Agreed.

 

Again, I love Toni Morrison's work but I can think of plenty of 19th century post-industrial novels of the same genre, that would be more age appropriate.  Save Toni Morrison for a more mature audience and mature discussion.

[umsami]

It's not about sex with a CHILD!!!!!!!!

 

No...but we have incest with Lot and his daughters in Genesis 19 or so.

 

And one of King David's sons rapes his sister in 1 Kings 13.

 

Also, let's not forget that a woman was viewed as marriageable as soon as she had her first period during much of history...including Biblical history.  I would think many of us would find sex with a 12 year old "sex with a child."

[Farrar]

Now I'm wondering what Toni Morrison thinks of algebra.

[Mandy in TN]

Please, someone add others.

Mandy

 

 

 

When I think of "seminal work about dire poverty and disenfranchisement written by one of the greatest novelists" I think of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath".

 

 

No...but we have incest with Lot and his daughters in Genesis 19 or so.

 

And one of King David's sons rapes his sister in 1 Kings 13.

 

 

I like these options. :) What are you looking for?

Mandy

[Χά�ων]

Now I'm wondering what Toni Morrison thinks of algebra.

The only way to know is to ask.

[Elfknitter.#]

How so? They are titles that deal with similar themes without the graphic content of The Bluest Eye. You are not going to find an exact replica without the graphic content. If that's what you want, just pull out the white out.

Summer of My German Soldier is jr high level. It deals with themes of abuse and discrimination. It deals with the theme of identity and confusion. The German boy isn't a Nazi, but he loves his country. It isn't as dark, harsh, or graphic as The Bluest Eye and it isn't at the same reading level, but it opens up discussion of darker topics.

Farewell to Manzanar depicts the disintegration of a family as the result of the Japanese internment camps in America in WW2. It shows discrimination and how sometimes people don't even recognize it and the impact of that discrimination on a female who is part of the minority. Again, this is a jr high level book, but it opens discussion of darker topics without being as dark as The Bluest Eye.

I have not read Black Like Me, but the author darkened his skin with medication and dye and describe the extreme prejudice against African American men in the South in 1959. It has been in print for over 50 years. It is not fiction and apparently it does offer some insight into the hopelessness and despair produce by segregation and discrimination. It is high school level reading and I assume will lead to discussions about living as with discrimination.

Little Altars Everywhere is an adult book that is a fairly easy read as far as reading level. There is mother-son rape, alcoholism, abuse. There are not the graphic descriptions that are in The Bluest Eye and it is not as hopeless, but it certainly opens these topics for discussion. Also, while Rebecca Wells is not a Nobel winning author she is an award winning author. The depth of this work is not as haunting or as gut wrenching as The Bluest Eye, but Little Altars Everywhere is not a trash romance novel.

If you want Toni Morrison, you can take it for what it is. If you want books that cover some of these topics in a more gentle fashion in order to open discussion of darker topics in order to pave the way for books like The Bluest Eye in college, then, off the top of my head, this is what I could come up with.

Please, someone add others.

Mandy

  

Of the 4 you mentioned, 2 are for middle schoolers, one is a work of pop-sociology (not literature) which many people now find pretty offensive and nobody really takes seriously anymore except as a cultural milestone, and the final one is a simplistic beach read about dysfunctional cheerleaders past their prime set in the South in the 1960s but without any black people.  How on earth are any of these suitable replacements for a seminal work about dire poverty and disenfranchisement, written by one of the greatest novelists alive?

I see the points were addressed.

[MeeganZ]

I'm just going to toss this out there. I checked this book out of our school library my senior year, twenty years ago, because it was on our suggested reading list for AP English. I couldn't read it. It made me nauseous. What I read was very gripping and Toni Morrison is a brilliant writer. I don't discount it as an incredible book for some people to read, but not for many. Whether or not it is titillating for you personally isn't an issue, it COULD be a turn on sexually to others and there is no way of knowing whether or not it will be for the teenagers reading it. A story like this COULD put ideas/thoughts/desires into their heads which weren't there before because it is so graphic and detailed. I knew boys that checked this book out (and several others with graphic sex scenes) to use for masturbation material (sorry to be so blunt). Pornographic magazines werent as easy to come by in our little town way back then. There are fetish pornography sites for people titillated by rape or pedophile containing stories written very similarly to the excerpts of this book posted here. Assigning or suggesting this book to teenage readers assumes they have a level of maturity many may not have. Personally I have no need to read a novel such as this and have such ugliness engrained in my mind. I can learn about the dark side of life watching the news. I can learn empathy and compassion volunteering at a shelter or hospital. I would never allow my children to read books that are so graphic, particularly regarding sexual content. There have been studies done showing that prolonged exposure to explicit sexual or violent content can numb people to the true horror of what is being depicted. When my children want to read books that I feel aren't appropriate I will discuss with them WHY I don't want them to read it. Hopefully after years of homeschooling, they will be able to see my point. If they want to read it, they can read it once they are no longer living under my roof and are no longer my responsibility. By that time I'm sure they will be mature enough to handle and understand the content of that and similar books.

[momma2three]

I agree that Steinbeck covers many of the same topics of poverty and disenfranchisement.  His works are usually read at the middle school level around here, but I wouldn't call them middle school books the way Summer of My German Soldier is.  (I'm sorry, I haven't read it, but isn't it a kind of shmaltzy teen romance novel?  I remember taking it off the shelves at bookstores when I was a kid and thinking it looked cheesy.  But I haven't read it, so I don't know.)

[Χά�ων]

I'm just going to toss this out there. I checked this book out of our school library my senior year, twenty years ago, because it was on our suggested reading list for AP English. I couldn't read it. It made me nauseous. What I read was very gripping and Toni Morrison is a brilliant writer. I don't discount it as an incredible book for some people to read, but not for many. Whether or not it is titillating for you personally isn't an issue, it COULD be a turn on sexually to others and there is no way of knowing whether or not it will be for the teenagers reading it. A story like this COULD put ideas/thoughts/desires into their heads which weren't there before because it is so graphic and detailed. I knew boys that checked this book out (and several others with graphic sex scenes) to use for masturbation material (sorry to be so blunt). Pornographic magazines werent as easy to come by in our little town way back then. There are fetish pornography sites for people titillated by rape or pedophile containing stories written very similarly to the excerpts of this book posted here. Assigning or suggesting this book to teenage readers assumes they have a level of maturity many may not have. Personally I have no need to read a novel such as this and have such ugliness engrained in my mind. I can learn about the dark side of life watching the news. I can learn empathy and compassion volunteering at a shelter or hospital. I would never allow my children to read books that are so graphic, particularly regarding sexual content. There have been studies done showing that prolonged exposure to explicit sexual or violent content can numb people to the true horror of what is being depicted. When my children want to read books that I feel aren't appropriate I will discuss with them WHY I don't want them to read it. Hopefully after years of homeschooling, they will be able to see my point. If they want to read it, they can read it once they are no longer living under my roof and are no longer my responsibility. By that time I'm sure they will be mature enough to handle and understand the content of that and similar books.

:lol:  :lol: :lol:  

[momma2three]

  

I see the points were addressed.

 

My points?  I don't think I totally understand what you're saying.  I think it's appalling that these 4 books are being suggested as being appropriate alternate works.  Steinbeck is at least literature.

[Elfknitter.#]

My points? I don't think I totally understand what you're saying. I think it's appalling that these 4 books are being suggested as being appropriate alternate works. Steinbeck is at least literature.

I meant your post addressed Mandy's questions and I didn't see a need to rehash them.

[mommymilkies]

Genesis 19:8: “Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.â€

 

And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh. Judges 21:7-11

 

Not as detailed, no, but hardly a directive to avoid pedophilia.  

[momma2three]

I meant you post addressed Mandy's questions and I didn't see a need to rehash them.

 

Oh sorry, this thread is enraging me a bit more than I think it probably should be.   :blushing:

[Mandy in TN]

  

I see the points were addressed.

 

I clearly said that My German Soldier and Farewell to Manzanar are jr high level. It doesn't negate the fact that they open up the door to deep discussions on disturbing topics.

 

While I agree with momma2three that Black Like Me is a work of non-fiction, I disagree "that many people now find pretty offensive and nobody really takes seriously anymore." The reviews I have read seem to indicate otherwise, but I have not read the book so can't offer my personal opinion. I doubt, based on the comments, that momma2three has read it either.

 

I have read Little Altars Everywhere. The first half of the book is told from the perspective of the children. The second half is told from the perspective of those same children as adults trying to recover and find their way. It would never occur to me to call Little Altars Everywhere a "beach read." That would be Harry Potter. ;)

 

Anyway, momma2three clearly thinks that the only way to cover these topics is through The Bluest Eye and that any sort of building up to this material is unacceptable. While I appreciate The Bluest Eye as a work of literature, I wasn't trying to find the same book with white out already included. I was looking for books that would lead to The Bluest Eye. Books that would cover similar topics, so that they could be discussed. Then, at some point if/ when those topics were covered in college, then it wouldn't be completely new material.

 

I am trying to help here, but you are going to need to explain what you are looking for.

Mandy

[NASDAQ]

FWIW, I am not a wild fan of Toni Morrison (read Song of Solomon and Beloved, not The Bluest Eye). I think she's one of those writers who fills a certain niche that schools need books for, and so gets trotted out a lot more than she would if she didn't happen to fill that niche. That's nothing against her as a person or a writer. It happens a lot with Canadian books as well; Something happens to be Canadian, and by a woman, and not about the prairies, and written at a tenth grade reading level, and reasonably good, and the next thing you know 99.99% of pupils are reading it in high school.

 

So I guess I'm the person standing up for depictions of child rape in the abstract, eh? I don't think that the graphic depiction of child rape renders a book useless, nor necessarily beyond the pale for an eleventh grade reading group.

[Irishmommy]

The only way to know is to ask.

Now THAT is a good idea!

[Luanne]

No...but we have incest with Lot and his daughters in Genesis 19 or so.

 

And one of King David's sons rapes his sister in 1 Kings 13.

 

Also, let's not forget that a woman was viewed as marriageable as soon as she had her first period during much of history...including Biblical history.  I would think many of us would find sex with a 12 year old "sex with a child."

 

Yeah, but it isn't condoned and it isn't told in graphic detail in the Bible.

[Irishmommy]

Night by Elie Weisel is a pretty graphic book, in some respects, but I think it is a book every person should read.

[mommymilkies]

Yeah, but it isn't condoned and it isn't told in graphic detail in the Bible.

Rape and taking of young virgins is not just condoned, but ordered.  

[Irishmommy]

Yeah, but it isn't condoned and it isn't told in graphic detail in the Bible.

It has been a while since I read TBE, but it didn't condone pedophilia.

[idnib]

Now I'm wondering what Toni Morrison thinks of algebra.

 

 

Probably uses it all the time:

 

"200 people hate my book. If 5x people have read it before forming a strong  opinion, and 95x people have not, how many people have actually read the book?"  ;)

[Irishmommy]

Probably uses it all the time:

 

"200 people hate my book. If 5x people have read it before forming a strong opinion, and 95x people have not, how many people have actually read the book?" ;)

 

And, my head just exploded...

[blondchen]

Finally commenting again, after doing a lot of reading - both this thread, and literary critiques of TBE (as suggested by someone early on). I probably need to be done, as this has taken up too much of my brain space since Monday.

 

This has been a fascinating and enlightening thread for me. Thanks to many of you who have thoughtfully replied, I do understand how a certain level of disturbing graphic detail, done purposefully, can be of value in supporting a good story that contributes to the Great Conversation, and is perhaps even necessary in order for the author to fully explore his/her themes. I get that in a way that I did not before, and I can understand why so many of you appreciate this novel. So, yes, I have considered another point of view and adjusted my own in some ways. *GASP*

 

It is still my personal view, however, that the level of explicitness in TBE is excessive, and crosses a moral/ethical line somehow, even if the author's intentions were noble. I don't pretend to be the arbiter of where that line would actually be drawn for everyone (and I'm not even certain where it is exactly in terms of my own ethical standards), but we all have our own lines, based on some purposeful standard. Obviously there are many people whose moral/ethical lines are drawn in a different places from mine, and I accept that. I can respect the views of others without agreeing with them. And I can especially treat others with respect regardless of what I actually think of their views.

 

I also am very familiar with the Bible, and it does indeed contain a host of disturbing topics and events (war, murder, rape, incest, child sacrifice, etc.), sometimes with graphic detail. It is brutally honest about the human condition and portrays a great deal of horrific evil within the context of a larger story of redemption. I don't believe that God wants us to hide from reality, then or now. But for the record, while there are graphic depictions in the Bible of murder and other heinous things, there is no biblical passage that contains the explicit details of a rape, let alone one against a child. That doesn't necessarily mean it is never called for in literature, but you simply won't find it in the Bible. The Song of Songs (or Solomon) contains poetic and graphic imagery of beautiful sexual acts between consenting adults, but again, that's not the same thing by any means. I am horrified at sexual abuse, and even if someone else does need to read it in explicit detail in order to be sufficiently horrified, I do not.

 

Regarding children (or "young adults", as 16-17yos have been referred to, understandably), I'm not sure how much of even the Bible is appropriate to introduce to a child of a certain age, but I guess I will figure that out as my kids get older (my oldest is 6). That will take a lot of wisdom, as will deciding what literature I will introduce to them and when. I hope to prepare them to deal with disturbing topics as they mature, and to discuss those topics in a safe and nurturing environment, so that by the time they are out of my house they are well-equipped to make their own decisions with wisdom and discernment, whether or not I would approve. I wish my parents had done that with me.

 

Finally, I am dismayed at the vitriol and bitter sarcasm in this thread, on all sides. This is supposed to be a supportive community, and since I joined I have valued the input of all kinds of people with whom I disagree in various ways. I hope that once this thread dies we can move on to discuss and disagree with courtesy and respect. Or hey, why not start now???

[LucyStoner]

Grapes of Wrath is a very often assigned book.  I read it, To a God Unknown and Beloved and some others all in the same class.  

[Dory]

How so? They are titles that deal with similar themes without the graphic content of The Bluest Eye. You are not going to find an exact replica without the graphic content. If that's what you want, just pull out the white out.

 

Summer of My German Soldier is jr high level. It deals with themes of abuse and discrimination. It deals with the theme of identity and confusion. The German boy isn't a Nazi, but he loves his country. It isn't as dark, harsh, or graphic as The Bluest Eye and it isn't at the same reading level, but it opens up discussion of darker topics.

 

Farewell to Manzanar depicts the disintegration of a family as the result of the Japanese internment camps in America in WW2. It shows discrimination and how sometimes people don't even recognize it and the impact of that discrimination on a female who is part of the minority. Again, this is a jr high level book, but it opens discussion of darker topics without being as dark as The Bluest Eye.

 

I have not read Black Like Me, but the author darkened his skin with medication and dye and describe the extreme prejudice against African American men in the South in 1959. It has been in print for over 50 years. It is not fiction and apparently it does offer some insight into the hopelessness and despair produce by segregation and discrimination. It is high school level reading and I assume will lead to discussions about living as with discrimination.

 

Little Altars Everywhere is an adult book that is a fairly easy read as far as reading level. There is mother-son rape, alcoholism, abuse. There are not the graphic descriptions that are in The Bluest Eye and it is not as hopeless, but it certainly opens these topics for discussion. Also, while Rebecca Wells is not a Nobel winning author she is an award winning author. The depth of this work is not as haunting or as gut wrenching as The Bluest Eye, but Little Altars Everywhere is not a trash romance novel.

 

If you want Toni Morrison, you can take it for what it is. If you want books that cover some of these topics in a more gentle fashion in order to open discussion of darker topics in order to pave the way for books like The Bluest Eye in college, then, off the top of my head, this is what I could come up with.

 

Please, someone add others.

Mandy

 

Thank you for the literary suggestions. I agree that discussion about these darker topics needs to happen through the teen years. The ground work needs to be done that the student will have been introduced and be aware and ready for the deeper discussions and reading material that will happen in college. It's been too long since I've had to read books like this, and I tend to avoid them as I find them very triggering, but I suppose I will have to start looking at them again eventually so that I can discuss them with the kids.

[Haiku]

Do we encourage our students to write an essay based on a few out of context paragraphs, or do we expect them to read the text in its entirety, then get to work ? 

 

Well, a while back I posted a thread about my then-17-year-old daughter writing a paper about a book she didn't bother to read, and I received a lot of encouragement to let her do so, and a lot of people admitted to doing the same thing in high school or college. So draw your own conclusions. ;)

[umsami]

Yeah, but it isn't condoned and it isn't told in graphic detail in the Bible.

 

No, it's not in graphic detail... but I'd argue that in no way does Toni Morrison condone pedophilia.

 

Also, regarding "condoning" from what I remember, there was no punishment regarding Lot's daughters and the whole sleeping with Daddy thing.   (Not saying that any Christian or Jew or anybody I know of any faith for that matter condones pedophilia...but I'm also saying I don't remember condemnation in that instance.)

 

It was also common to force a rape victim to marry her rapist. (See Deuteronomy).  One can read that...and think...Oh my, how barbaric (and yes, part of me does).  One can also read it, think of the times, and wonder why that's there.  Is it to protect her? Remember, it's not like there were a lot of options open to a non-virgin at the time.  It's something one can discuss and perhaps should.  

 

Nobody can force anybody to read any book or think a certain way.   I understand people who are troubled by some of the writing within TBE.  I understand even why they are troubled and why they may not want to read the book themselves.  Yet, I get a bit upset when people express outrage that one of the great modern authors' work is included in a recommended reading list for 16 and 17 year olds.  Even if it deals with something troubling.  I'm sure there are people who don't read Oscar Wilde because he was gay.  There are people who don't let their kids read Harry Potter because of witchcraft.    Sadly, it's their and their kids' loss.  I don't worry about my kids becoming gay, a witch, or wanting to be a pedophile from a book.  If they want to learn more about paganism--I will steer them to people I know, yet I really don't stay awake at night wondering if they're going to leave for a boarding school for witches.  If reading OW opens up a discussion about sexual orientation...and provides a door for that... great.  We can also talk about the history of how people were persecuted over their orientation and include people like Alan Turing.

[Kathryn]

Why are people repeatedly claiming that it's a "value judgment" that the book or author are not worth reading, yet proclaiming as fact that this is a VERY IMPORTANT BOOK and Toni Morrison is a VERY IMPORTANT AUTHOR?

[LucyStoner]

Why are people repeatedly claiming that it's a "value judgment" that the book or author are not worth reading, yet proclaiming as fact that this is a VERY IMPORTANT BOOK and Toni Morrison is a VERY IMPORTANT AUTHOR?

 

The objectionable value judgement in my view isn't that someone dislikes the book or the author.  I said as much in my posts- think whatever you want about a book or author (preferably after having read it, but whatever).  I myself don't much like Beloved.  The objectionable, and I think uneducated and nasty stuff, is using words like porn, pervo, trashy and SATAN.  Many people have said things that either explicitly condemn the personal morality of people who have read it/defend it or hint quite a bit at it.

 

Does anyone who read my posts and my personal experience have the nerve to think that I am down with sexual violence against children?   That I'd be more upset about violence towards animals? Therein lies the obnoxious IMO.  That is so objectionable as to be downright humorous.  

[Catwoman]

Now I'm wondering what Toni Morrison thinks of algebra.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

And, perhaps more importantly, can she write a paragraph explaining how to solve a math problem? ;)

 

(Oops... sorry... wrong thread... :D)

[sunnyday]

Why are people repeatedly claiming that it's a "value judgment" that the book or author are not worth reading, yet proclaiming as fact that this is a VERY IMPORTANT BOOK and Toni Morrison is a VERY IMPORTANT AUTHOR?

 

The claim that the book is not worth reading seems to be coming from people who have not read the book or any works by this author.

 

The claim that Morrison is an important author is coming from the Pulitzer Prize committee, the Nobel Prize committee, "a couple of hundred prominent writers, critics, editors and other literary sages" (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/books/fiction-25-years.html).

[nmoira]

Why are people repeatedly claiming that it's a "value judgment" that the book or author are not worth reading, yet proclaiming as fact that this is a VERY IMPORTANT BOOK and Toni Morrison is a VERY IMPORTANT AUTHOR?

 

I detest Hemingway. Would rather pick at my skin until I reach the quick than read him, because I'd find it more edifying and less excruciating. However, I acknowledge that many consider him to be A VERY IMPORTANT AUTHOR worth reading. :)

[LucyStoner]

I am really glad that I put on my red pants today before returning to read this thread.  It is impossible to be upset or angry or sad while wearing a great pair red pants.  (Insert red pant happy dance).  

[Haiku]

I detest Hemingway. Would rather pick at my skin until I reach the quick than read him, because I'd find it more edifying and less excruciating. However, I acknowledge that many consider him to be A VERY IMPORTANT AUTHOR worth reading. :)

 

And how. There are also many visual artists whose work makes me at best go, "Meh. That's not art," and at worst go, "OMG. That SUUUUUUCKS! I now need to gouge out my eyeballs with a rusty fork."

 

But I have the sophistication to recognize that, in the art world, among people who are more knowledgeable about the field than I, those artists' contributions are considered significant.

 

Btw, after years of tutelage by my artsy husband, I have come to appreciate the bicycle wheel on the stool.

[Crimson Wife]

Seriously ? You think Morrison is only on the list because she's what - alive ? A woman ? Black ?

Yes, yes, and yes. There was a big difference in literary merit between the novels covered in my 12th grade "multicultural literature" class and the non-Western classics included in my freshman year of college Great Works course. Think Amy Tan vs. Confucius, Lao Tzu, and the author of "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" whose name escapes me at the moment.

 

I'm all for having a more diverse reading list than the traditional "Great Works of the Western World". But works should be chosen based on literary merit rather than their authors being of the politically correct race & gender.

[Dory]

 

The claim that the book is not worth reading seems to be coming from people who have not read the book or any works by this author.

 

The claim that Morrison is an important author is coming from the Pulitzer Prize committee, the Nobel Prize committee, "a couple of hundred prominent writers, critics, editors and other literary sages" (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/books/fiction-25-years.html).

 

I've read the book, and although I tried to point out what I thought were it's possible redeeming qualities, I also said that I wouldn't recommend it as a should read for anyone. But then, I'm noticing in this thread that the wilder the post, the more people seem to read it. Perhaps my response wasn't 'out there' enough.

[Haiku]

Think Amy Tan vs. Confucius, Lao Tzu, and the author of "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" whose name escapes me at the moment.

 

Different ages explore topics in different ways and with different styles. Today's works that will become classics may not resemble the classics of bygone ages, but that's ok. We are a different culture with a different way of living and thinking and a different style of writing.