Shocked that this book is on the Grade 11 common core reading list. Scary!

[nmoira]

Yes, yes, and yes. There was a big difference in literary merit between the novels covered in my 12th grade "multicultural literature" class and the non-Western classics included in my freshman year of college Great Works course. Think Amy Tan vs. Confucius, Lao Tzu, and the author of "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" whose name escapes me at the moment.

 

I'm all for having a more diverse reading list than the traditional "Great Works of the Western World". But works should be chosen based on literary merit rather than their authors being of the politically correct race & gender.

 

So Morrison is to Steinbeck  as Amy Tan is to two ancient Chinese philosophers and a medieval Chinese writer?

[LucyStoner]

Yes, yes, and yes. 

 

Why don't you go take up the matter with the Nobel Foundation.  

[Crimson Wife]

The claim that Morrison is an important author is coming from the Pulitzer Prize committee, the Nobel Prize committee, "a couple of hundred prominent writers, critics, editors and other literary sages" (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/books/fiction-25-years.html).

Do you think these committees are immune from political pressures to "diversify" their awardee lists? Prior to the 1980's the Nobel Prize in Literature was almost exclusively awarded to white males. Since 1980, there have been very few. Do you think that is purely coincidental? I get it, they're trying to make up for the discrimination of the past that caused worthy female and/or non-Western authors to be overlooked. But I don't think Toni Morrison would have even remotely the same accolades if it were Tony Morrison the white male author.

[nmoira]

Why don't you go take up the matter with the Nobel Foundation.  

 

And Hemingway's while you're at it!   :tongue_smilie:

[Haiku]

Prior to the 1980's the Nobel Prize in Literature was almost exclusively awarded to white males. Since 1980, there have been very few. Do you think that is purely coincidental?

 

No, it's not coincidental at all. But I would attribute it to something entirely different than PC-ness. I would attribute it to a growing cultural awareness that being a white male does not automatically impart superiority in every endeavor and that white males weren't the only people worthy of noticing. 

[nmoira]

Do you think these committees are immune from political pressures to "diversify" their awardee lists? Prior to the 1980's the Nobel Prize in Literature was almost exclusively awarded to white males. 

 

European white males.

[Elfknitter.#]

Wow. Just.. Wow. :blink:

[LucyStoner]

No, it's not coincidental at all. But I would attribute it to something entirely different than PC-ness. I would attribute it to a growing cultural awareness that being a white male does not automatically impart superiority in every endeavor and that white males weren't the only people worthy of noticing. 

 

 

Yes, exactly.  

 

One could certainly say that the prize traditionally suffered from Affirmative Action for European White Males due to the explicit exclusion of women and non-white people from literary circles/development.   You can't complain that once publishers and universities opened up to people besides white males that other people started winning awards.  White male authors now get to compete in a much larger pond than they got to before.  Too bad.  So sad.  

 

ETA:  The Nobel prize for literature had been awarded to women and Latin American authors prior to 1980- but most of the authors of the age and with the body of work to be up for the Nobel Prize were white males until fairly recently.  No one can argue this was not in large part due to non-white male authors not being able to be enrolled, hired or published certain places.  

[mommaduck]

I think on a classical homeschooling board, there could be general agreement that if we want to be truly informed, we read a book for ourselves. And then we discuss it.

 

Do we encourage our students to write an essay based on a few out of context paragraphs, or do we expect them to read the text in its entirety, then get to work ? Why should our standards as adults be any lower ?

 

I wonder how many pages this thread would be if it were composed of those who had read the book in question ? I wonder how much more civilized it would be ?

I shouldn't have to read Fifty Shades of Grey or Blue Eyes to know that it's something that I don't want my teenagers to read or to know that it's something that I don't want to read. I'm glad for ratings, reviews, excerpts, etc. Those give me the information I need to decide whether it's worth my time to read the book and consider it. Some books don't make it onto the "read and consider" list. Some books do. Those books that do, may not make it past my own personal reading of it. Others I will have my children read.

[Laura Corin]

I am really glad that I put on my red pants today before returning to read this thread.  It is impossible to be upset or angry or sad while wearing a great pair red pants.  (Insert red pant happy dance).  

 

I had dialect slip and imagined you dancing in red underpants.  I hope you don't mind.  It was a fun image.

 

L

[LucyStoner]

I had dialect slip and imagined you dancing in red underpants.  I hope you don't mind.  It was a fun image.

 

L

 

PORN!  

[umsami]

OK, got curious and went to the Nobel site to see who had won recently.  They had this cool "Lord of the Flies" game there.  Might be of interest to some:  http://www.nobelprize.org/educational/literature/golding/

[nmoira]

I shouldn't have to read Fifty Shades of Grey or Blue Eyes to know that it's something that I don't want my teenagers to read or to know that it's something that I don't want to read. I'm glad for ratings, reviews, excerpts, etc. Those give me the information I need to decide whether it's worth my time to read the book and consider it. Some books don't make it onto the "read and consider" list. Some books do. Those books that do, may not make it past my own personal reading of it. Others I will have my children read.

 

Fifty Shades of Grey *is* erotica, and not very good erotica at that. I couldn't make it past the first few pages, and it's a genre in which I occasionally indulge.

 

Your comparison is apples and oranges. Trussed or not.

[*Lulu*]

I had dialect slip and imagined you dancing in red underpants.  I hope you don't mind.  It was a fun image.

 

L

  

PORN!

 

:lol:

[umsami]

Also, some parents may find Common Sense Media's review of the book useful.  They recommend it for kids 15+.

 

http://www.commonsensemedia.org/book-reviews/the-bluest-eye

 

 

It was also featured a long time ago on Oprah's Book Club.  The discussion guide might be useful as well.

http://www.oprah.com/oprahsbookclub/The-Bluest-Eye-by-Toni-Morrison/3

 

Here's one question: "Consider Morrison's characterization of Cholly Breedlove. While she clearly condemns his actions, she resists dehumanizing him. If rape of one's daughter is an "unimaginable" crime, can one at least trace the events (and resulting emotions) that made it possible for Cholly to commit this brutal act? Is there a connection between the white hunters' "rape" of Cholly and the sexual aggression he eventually turned on his daughter?"

[LucyStoner]

I shouldn't have to read Fifty Shades of Grey or Blue Eyes to know that it's something that I don't want my teenagers to read or to know that it's something that I don't want to read. I'm glad for ratings, reviews, excerpts, etc. Those give me the information I need to decide whether it's worth my time to read the book and consider it. Some books don't make it onto the "read and consider" list. Some books do. Those books that do, may not make it past my own personal reading of it. Others I will have my children read.

 

I would be hard pressed to call Fifty Shades of Grey literature.  It's writing.  Pulp erotica, not especially good erotica at that. 

[AlmiraGulch]

I shouldn't have to read Fifty Shades of Grey or Blue Eyes to know that it's something that I don't want my teenagers to read or to know that it's something that I don't want to read. I'm glad for ratings, reviews, excerpts, etc. Those give me the information I need to decide whether it's worth my time to read the book and consider it. Some books don't make it onto the "read and consider" list. Some books do. Those books that do, may not make it past my own personal reading of it. Others I will have my children read.

 

Comparing Fifty Shades to TBE is not appropriate.

 

Fifty Shades is, indeed, erotica.  Soft porn.  Marketed as such.  The Bluest Eye is not in the same genre, by a long shot.

 

Unbelievable.

[nmoira]

I would be hard pressed to call Fifty Shades of Grey literature.

 

Ah... you've given me an idea for a bit of "fan" fiction of fan fiction. I take things too literally sometimes.

[mommaduck]

Fifty Shades of Grey *is* erotica, and not very good erotica at that. I couldn't make it past the first few pages, and it's a genre in which I occasionally indulge.

 

Your comparison is apples and oranges. Trussed or not.

 

Someone else brought up Fifty Shades of Grey; that is the only reason I included it ;) The point remains the same...I do not have to read it to know that it's not something I want my teenagers to read.

[mommaduck]

And yeah, you should have to read  books before you ban your children from reading them. That's called responsible education. At the very least you should read several critical reviews ( ie reviews by critics in the field ) before you go around comparing poorly written erotica with literature.

 

Let me just ask: do you think SWB would approve of a mob mentality towards any work of literature, regardless of her personal view on individual books ? I see nothing in TWTM that encourages such a thing.

 

So you read EVERYTHING you don't let your children read?

 

[KathyJo]

And yeah, you should have to read  books before you ban your children from reading them. That's called responsible education. At the very least you should read several critical reviews ( ie reviews by critics in the field ) before you go around comparing poorly written erotica with literature.

 

No, not hardly. I get to decide what my children read, and knowing that a book contains a graphic description of a child being raped is enough for me. I will not put the filth of that description into my own head; my children can decide whether or not to when they're adults. It's absolutely absurd to think that I can't make a decision simply based on the subject matter and graphic nature of a book without reading it first. My reason for not wanting my children to read this book is so that they will not have these images put into their heads. Why would I choose to put the images into my own?

 

I don't care about which decision other people make for their own children, though I do believe it would be wrong to force anyone to read books that are both graphic and violent. 

 

But again, it is absolutely not a requirement of "responsible education" to read a book before banning it because it contains a graphic and violent sex act. Others can choose books based on their own criteria.

[sunnyday]

I've read the book, and although I tried to point out what I thought were it's possible redeeming qualities, I also said that I wouldn't recommend it as a should read for anyone. But then, I'm noticing in this thread that the wilder the post, the more people seem to read it. Perhaps my response wasn't 'out there' enough.

 

So having read The Bluest Eye, it is your opinion that Toni Morrison is an unimportant author? That a survey of 20th-century American novels, say, can completely neglect to mention her without repercussion?

[LucyStoner]

So you read EVERYTHING you don't let your children read?

 

If I told my son he had to not read a book, yes, I would read it before coming to a final decision.  I might resort to skimming parts for speed, but I would read it.  Hopefully it will help that I am reasonably well read and a fast reader.  So far though I haven't restricted him.  And I certainly wouldn't assign something I had not read myself.  I'll report back if I eat these words, ok?  

[NittanyJen]

It causes sexual excitement for pedophiles.

 

So is it OK for gay men to write sexually explicit material about a man and a woman because it is "not intending" to excite them personally? That should be allowed and not considered porn, but if a straight person was to write it then its porn because it was intended to cause sexual excitement?

 

Maybe she didn't "intend" for this book to do those things but IT DOES for some people. And therefore is porn

People with foot fetishes are seriously turned on by bare feet. By your definition, we should not read any books with characters flagrantly displaying bare feet, because somebody, somewhere, might get turned on.

 

At some point you must realize when an argument has become ludicrous. Saying that something not written as porn and not serving you as porn because it is not intended as arousing and most people would never find it anything but repulsive, but some person somewhere, unknown to you, might possibly find it arousing, so it is still therefore porn... Eeeyikes.

 

I can see an individual finding the sexual explicitness personally distasteful; but "it passes my threshold of discomfort and is therefore porn" is not really the definition of the word.

 

The linguist in me was just becoming agitated.

[idnib]

Still waiting for someone to write 50 Shades of Blue Eyes...

[mommaduck]

I don't restrict my children's reading so this issue doesn't come up. Instead, we discuss what they read. Often but not always, I've read the book in question. I've read a lot of books :) I've found wide reading to be very helpful in educating my children.

 

That is your choice as a parent. It doesn't make you more or less educationally responsible than another (just as you view others as less educationally responsible, they may find you less educationally responsible or less responsible as a parent over the same issue...each parent gets to make that judgment call. And I believe this is part of the issue...questionable material being required and parents/children not having a say).

 

[I.Dup.]

"Absolutely absurd" pretty much sums all of this up.

 

 

People with foot fetishes are seriously turned on by bare feet. By your definition, we should not read any books with characters flagrantly displaying bare feet, because somebody, somewhere, might get turned on.

At some point you must realize when an argument has become ludicrous. Saying that something not written as porn and not serving you as porn because it is not intended as arousing and most people would never find it anything but repulsive, but some person somewhere, unknown to you, might possibly find it arousing, so it is still therefore porn... Eeeyikes.

I can see an individual finding the sexual explicitness personally distasteful; but "it passes my threshold of discomfort and is therefore porn" is not really the definition of the word.

The linguist in me was just becoming agitated.

 

I am just baffled that some of you are just fine comparing things like foot fetishes and sushi to graphic descriptions of child rape, but God forbid we lump Toni Morrison into the wrong category? She deserves RESPECT after all!!!!!!!!!!

[mommaduck]

If I told my son he had to not read a book, yes, I would read it before coming to a final decision.  I might resort to skimming parts for speed, but I would read it.  Hopefully it will help that I am reasonably well read and a fast reader.  So far though I haven't restricted him.  And I certainly wouldn't assign something I had not read myself.  I'll report back if I eat these words, ok?  

 

Bolded, I definitely agree. I did that once, going off of another "conservative" family's suggestion. Ugh. Yes, good conversation, but my son wishes he hadn't read the book and asked if there was a way to bleach his brain (A Brave New World...a classic in some circles, I know).

[Haiku]

She deserves RESPECT after all!!!!!!!!!!

 

Respect and appreciation are not one in the same. I can respect a writer without personally appreciating their work.

[Luanne]

Do you not see how insulting this is to those of us who think the book important? Or are you trying to be insulting?

 

I didn't know agreeing with someone else on here was insulting.  A lot of people on here don't agree with you either.  I guess you are just insulted easily.

[Luanne]

I don't restrict my children's reading so this issue doesn't come up. Instead, we discuss what they read. Often but not always, I've read the book in question. I've read a lot of books :) I've found wide reading to be very helpful in educating my children.

 

So you would be fine with your 10 year old reading this book?  You just said you don't restrict anything your child reads.

[Luanne]

No, it's not in graphic detail... but I'd argue that in no way does Toni Morrison condone pedophilia.

 

Also, regarding "condoning" from what I remember, there was no punishment regarding Lot's daughters and the whole sleeping with Daddy thing.   (Not saying that any Christian or Jew or anybody I know of any faith for that matter condones pedophilia...but I'm also saying I don't remember condemnation in that instance.)

 

It was also common to force a rape victim to marry her rapist. (See Deuteronomy).  One can read that...and think...Oh my, how barbaric (and yes, part of me does).  One can also read it, think of the times, and wonder why that's there.  Is it to protect her? Remember, it's not like there were a lot of options open to a non-virgin at the time.  It's something one can discuss and perhaps should.  

 

Nobody can force anybody to read any book or think a certain way.   I understand people who are troubled by some of the writing within TBE.  I understand even why they are troubled and why they may not want to read the book themselves.  Yet, I get a bit upset when people express outrage that one of the great modern authors' work is included in a recommended reading list for 16 and 17 year olds.  Even if it deals with something troubling.  I'm sure there are people who don't read Oscar Wilde because he was gay.  There are people who don't let their kids read Harry Potter because of witchcraft.    Sadly, it's their and their kids' loss.  I don't worry about my kids becoming gay, a witch, or wanting to be a pedophile from a book.  If they want to learn more about paganism--I will steer them to people I know, yet I really don't stay awake at night wondering if they're going to leave for a boarding school for witches.  If reading OW opens up a discussion about sexual orientation...and provides a door for that... great.  We can also talk about the history of how people were persecuted over their orientation and include people like Alan Turing.

 

You clearly don't know what graphic detail is then.  I have never read a book that had as much as this one does. 

[Elfknitter.#]

So you would be fine with your 10 year old reading this book? You just said you don't restrict anything your child reads.

I HIGHLY doubt any 10 year old would ask to read this. That is a silly argument.

[Elfknitter.#]

So you read EVERYTHING you don't let your children read?

 

Yep, especially after reading the original version of Doctor Dolittle, I am even more glad that I did. It is not hard to read children or YA novels before my kids. It makes me a better facilitator in their learning. Also, for my state, I need to have documents regarding professional development which reading these titles and their critiques satisfies.

[TracyP]

I've read the book, and although I tried to point out what I thought were it's possible redeeming qualities, I also said that I wouldn't recommend it as a should read for anyone. But then, I'm noticing in this thread that the wilder the post, the more people seem to read it. Perhaps my response wasn't 'out there' enough.

 

You read the book, you posted a thoughtful critique of the book, and you made a decision for your family based on that. I read your post, and I am sure everyone else did too. There is just nothing else to say. Nobody has any reason to argue you out of your position. Unfortunately, the same courtesy is not being extended to those who came to a different conclusion.

[Pen]

I tried to look up Common Core for 11th grade to see what books are on the list, but I did not get a list.   What I got was this: http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/RL/11-12  This was goals for 11th to 12th grade   Could someone point me to a Common Core official list for 11th grade.  I am interested in seeing what all it has.  Thanks.

 

This is quite a thread.   That the work might similarly generate a good bit of interest and conversation amongst 11th graders is an interesting possibility.  

[kwickimom]

I HIGHLY doubt any 10 year old would ask to read this. That is a silly argument.

I think it's a great question, because it is possible.

[LucyStoner]

My 10 year old is waist deep in HG Wells, Twain, Stevenson and most importantly Bill Watterson  :lol:.  I can think of no turn of events that would have him wanting to read The Bluest Eye for a good number of years yet.  

 

 

[Elfknitter.#]

I tried to look up Common Core for 11th grade to see what books are on the list, but I did not get a list. What I got was this: http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/RL/11-12 This was goals for 11th to 12th grade Could someone point me to a Common Core official list for 11th grade. I am interested in seeing what all it has. Thanks.

 

This is quite a thread. That the work might similarly generate a good bit of interest and conversation amongst 11th graders is an interesting possibility.

Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy back at the start of all this, I had posted the exemplar list: http://www.corestandards.org/assets/Appendix_B.pdf

[Mandy in TN]

Ok, I must admit after so many people said how horrible 50 Shades was and that it shouldn't be read I read it. See how banning books works. ;) soooo- it wasn't graphic. It was sort of ho hum. Her repetitive language regarding female genitalia was pretty hilarious. It had me laughing. It wasn't even particularly interesting except as a fan fic of Twilight which I must admit I also read. See people. You tell me something is awful and I have to find out for myself. Now, Twilight I went through with a highlighter and marked all the other literature that is referenced. All the literature referenced in Twilight would make a pretty good reading list.

 

Anyway, as an exploration of fetishes, the Beauty trilogy by Anne Rice is better.

See what happens to these conversations.

Mandy

[unfrumpable.]

Bolded, I definitely agree. I did that once, going off of another "conservative" family's suggestion. Ugh. Yes, good conversation, but my son wishes he hadn't read the book and asked if there was a way to bleach his brain (A Brave New World...a classic in some circles, I know).

 

I am curious (seriously) what your son found brain bleach worthy in A Brave New World?

[Elfknitter.#]

I think it's a great question, because it is possible.

I read Animal Farm, Little Women and Robinson Crusoe at 9. If my child felt ready to tackle this, which still I sincerely doubt there is any realistic claim to a 10 year asking to read this, then yes, as a parent I would (re-read) this with them and address topics/themes/etc rather than leave them to do it alone. I was never restricted in reading and by 12 read Flowers in the Attic (also a title with incest in the story line.)

[LucyStoner]

Ok, I must admit after so many people said how horrible 50 Shades was and that it shouldn't be read I read it. See how banning books works. ;) soooo- it wasn't graphic. It was sort of ho hum. Her repetitive language regarding female genitalia was pretty hilarious. It had me laughing. It wasn't even particularly interesting except as a fan fic of Twilight which I must admit I also read. See people. You tell me something is awful and I have to find out for myself. Now, Twilight I went through with a highlighter and marked all the other literature that is referenced. All the literature referenced in Twilight would make a pretty good reading list.

 

Anyway, as an exploration of fetishes, the Beauty trilogy by Anne Rice is better.

See what happens to these conversations.

Mandy

 

See, I've never read Twilight.  I am not a fan of vampire stuff.   But I mostly keep my uninformed opinions about it to myself. 

[Catwoman]

Ok, I must admit after so many people said how horrible 50 Shades was and that it shouldn't be read I read it.

Well, there's a couple hours of your life you'll never get back. :D

[Elfknitter.#]

See, I've never read Twilight. I am not a fan of vampire stuff. But I mostly keep my uninformed opinions about it to myself.

12 pages was all I could stomach of that dribble. Even Anne Rice's overcompensating for detail would have been a relief.

[Mandy in TN]

So you would be fine with your 10 year old reading this book? You just said you don't restrict anything your child reads.

Oh, come one. If I told my 10yo that he needed to pick a book, he would go to the non-fiction children's section and grab a short, large font biography or book on some animal. At least that is is what he has been doing since this summer. <sigh>

[Χά�ων]

Genesis 19:8: “Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.â€

 

And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh. Judges 21:7-11

 

Not as detailed, no, but hardly a directive to avoid pedophilia.  

I am out of likes for the day so I quoted instead.

[LucyStoner]

12 pages was all I could stomach of that dribble. Even Anne Rice's overcompensating for detail would have been a relief.

 

I started the The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty and might have finished it if it weren't for Anne Rice's annoying writing.  

[Mandy in TN]

Well, there's a couple hours of your life you'll never get back. :D

I know. I know, but I live in the Bible belt and after so many ladies went on about how horrible it was I just had to find out.

[unfrumpable.]

You clearly don't know what graphic detail is then.  I have never read a book that had as much as this one does. 

 

It appears you like to go through this thread accusing people of things. Not having ever perused a library or bookstore, not knowing what graphic detail is.... I'm pretty sure the previous poster knows what graphic detail is. You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

I have not read this book. As far as I can tell from your posts, you have not either. Therefore, neither you, nor I, have a leg to stand on regarding discussing or dissing this book. Not in any intellectual way, anyways. Please correct me if I'm wrong and you have read this book, as you alluded to in the post I'm quoting.