What would you think if someone said this to your DH?

[8circles]

I'm so sorry...it sounds like an awfully difficult family-mess.  I think family-messes are the worse, because you can't easily disengage.

 

The book BOUNDARIES, by Cloud and Townsend is an empowering and very helpful resource; I recommend buying or checking out a library copy and reading it as fast as you can. 

 

This book & the workbook are supposed to arrive today. Thank you Amazon Prime.

[*Lulu*]

Thank you so much for this post. I feel like you really get this. The bold is what I'm struggling with. For me, I'm ready. For my kids, I'm not.

 

What does your husband say?

 

I ask, not because I thnk he is the boss of you, but because he is a parent who deserves to have a voice in the raising of his children.

 

When we went through the "Great Boundary Setting of '07" DH was a rock and a voice of reason. He said that he didn't care how much our kids loved my family, my family wasn't healthy and they shouldn't be around them. He told me we would never allow our kids to be involved with random starangers who were as dysfunctional as my family, why did blood give them a pass on thier bad behavior?

 

Don't tell my DH, but it was one of those moments when I thought, I have married soooooo far out of my league!

[8circles]

 

ETA: read this was your parents, your mom. I'd probably still do the above and likely point out that I have no desire to be the kind of wife she thinks is proper and she should accept that as quickly as possible. My mother would have said something like that and yes, I would have said that to her. We did not have a cozy giving spontanious bear hugs relationship either. (((hugs)))

 

Yeah, & I was prepared to say something like this but she was on a full-rant & nobody else could speak.  She carried on into the garage & out on the driveway.  I hope the neighbors weren't home.

 

[8circles]

What does your husband say?

 

I ask, not because I thnk he is the boss of you, but because he is a parent who deserves to have a voice in the raising of his children.

 

When we went through the "Great Boundary Setting of '07" DH was a rock and a voice of reason. He said that he didn't care how much our kids loved my family, my family wasn't healthy and they shouldn't be around them. He told me we would never allow our kids to be involved with random starangers who were as dysfunctional as my family, why did blood give them a pass on thier bad behavior?

 

Don't tell my DH, but it was one of those moments when I thought, I have married soooooo far out of my league!

 

I'm with you on the bold.  Totally.

 

DH is just beginning to see this nonsense - seriously every other incident since we've been married has been when he wasn't present (not coincidence, I think).  This was the first time he has seen it first-hand so he's still processing.  He believed my accounts before but it really is different seeing it first-hand.

 

He is supporting me 100% & giving his opinion when he has one.  I think he is still struggling with reconciling the relationship he has had with them (largely good but not close) and what he is realizing about my relationship with them.  DH is one of those people that everybody likes & he always tries to find the positive - so his perspective will reflect that.

 

My parents were supposed to come next week & help DH with childcare while I'm gone for a week.  He is now taking time off of work instead & we'll be telling them not to come. 

 

[kewb]

I would think the person asking was an idiot and I would expect dh to enlighten them.  And if dh did not enlighten them I certainly would.  Doesn't matter if family or not.  Those kinds of questions are offensive and an invasion into ones privacy.

[*Lulu*]

If she is showing her true colors around your DH when she hasn't before I would take it that things are probably getting worse.

 

So sorry; I know it sucks.

[Dana]

I hope to sound rude, but why don't you want to hug your mom? Are you just not a hugger? Could you make an exception for your mom? She obviously wants to hug you. Is it that big of a deal?

It is that big of a deal.

 

If I don't want that physical contact and it's forced on me by pressure "not that big a deal", then I feel I'm losing my bodily autonomy.

 

Some of us aren't touchy-feely people.

You get in my physical space when I don't want you there, I'm pushing back.

And yes, this is with family too.

Not everyone has a good relationship with extended family. I will sometimes hug my parents after a visit or upon arrival (they live 4 hours away and we don't see them regularly), but it takes serious mental energy for me to do that. That leaves less energy for me to guard my tongue and that's not good either.

 

Please, please don't force your kids to give hugs if they don't want to.

It IS a big deal to some.

[wintermom]

I would think that this person is nosey and butting into something that's none of their business. I'd trust my dh to deal with this appropriately, and I wouldn't get involved.

[Greenmama2]

If she is showing her true colors around your DH when she hasn't before I would take it that things are probably getting worse.

 

So sorry; I know it sucks.

I agree with this. Your poor sister. It sounds as though she comes by her narcissistic dx honestly :(

[Kathryn]

Thank you so much for this post.  I feel like you really get this.  The bold is what I'm struggling with.  For me, I'm ready.  For my kids, I'm not.

 

  

ETA:  Removed quote because it was deleted.

 

I appreciate your response but I would describe it as abusive.  I don't want to go into the specifics because honestly nobody wants to read through all of it.  But in a nutshell, my family is all about shame & control.  I've had enough.  So far they haven't done that with my kids so I've not wanted to rip them away from my kids for my kids' sake.  This is constantly being re-evaluated.

 

I know it's hard. I, too, was reluctant to cut off a toxic family member because after all she'd done to me, she hadn't done anything completely horrible to my children. I thought it would be awful to cut their grandmother out of their lives. But, it's been four months now since I finally did, and the peace in our family is so nice. The kids asked about her for a couple of weeks, but they don't anymore. And, to be honest, it's not HER I didn't want to take away, it was a grandmother. But their grandmother wasn't what a grandmother should be. It wasn't a healthy relationship.

[Mommy22alyns]

  

I know it's hard. I, too, was reluctant to cut off a toxic family member because after all she'd done to me, she hadn't done anything completely horrible to my children. I thought it would be awful to cut their grandmother out of their lives. But, it's been four months now since I finally did, and the peace in our family is so nice. The kids asked about her for a couple of weeks, but they don't anymore. And, to be honest, it's not HER I didn't want to take away, it was a grandmother. But their grandmother wasn't what a grandmother should be. It wasn't a healthy relationship.

 

 

Very similar situation here, with both parents.  It broke my heart to deprive the girls of grandparents, but one was just  not safe or trustworthy, and the other is a narcissist who, as it turns out, doesn't actually give a crap about her granddaughters.  The girls have accepted it and moved on.

 

OP,  :grouphug: .

[mamaraby]

It is that big of a deal.

 

If I don't want that physical contact and it's forced on me by pressure "not that big a deal", then I feel I'm losing my bodily autonomy.

 

Some of us aren't touchy-feely people.

You get in my physical space when I don't want you there, I'm pushing back.

And yes, this is with family too.

Not everyone has a good relationship with extended family. I will sometimes hug my parents after a visit or upon arrival (they live 4 hours away and we don't see them regularly), but it takes serious mental energy for me to do that. That leaves less energy for me to guard my tongue and that's not good either.

 

Please, please don't force your kids to give hugs if they don't want to.

It IS a big deal to some.

This. Sorry, but no one has the right to force anyone into physical contact with another without their consent. That goes for hugs from family members. You ask "Can I hug you?" or "Would you like a hug?" If the answer is no, the answer is no. Period.

 

The same goes for children and for those who are "touchy-feely. " It teaches respect and helps to reinforce a culture of consent with the added benefit of healthy boundaries.

 

OP - I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds like it's time to take a break from the, for a good long while.

[Cinder]

:grouphug:  What an icky situation. Your dh sounds like a gem. I know you two will stand strong together through this. :grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

I agree with Lisa R in this situation.  They have already crossed the boundary of not providing a safe place for your children.  (And may I say, you have let them do this by taking your children to a place where even the adults are afraid for their safety.)  They have already crossed the boundary of your personal space by forcing the (semi) intimate contact of a hug when you don't want one - to the point of physically pushing you.  (And you've allowed them to do that by going back after the first time this happened.)  Now they have crossed the boundary of your marital relationship by using your relationship with your husband to shame you and to try and guilt you into giving into their demands.  

 

What happens now is up to you.  I say this with kindness but this is an ugly situation that is going to get progressively uglier if you don't draw some very strong boundary lines.  If I were in this situation I would start by either cutting off the relationship altogether or only meeting with them in public for short periods of times.  This will solve the safety problem.  This might solve the physical boundary problem since most people will not push someone in public.  But if they cross that boundary at all, you need to be prepared to call your children and leave - immediately.  The marital boundary might be more difficult because people will often say all sorts of things as long as they do it quietly enough not to bring attention to themselves.  Again - be prepared to call your children and leave - immediately.  To tell you the truth, cutting off the relationship entirely is the easiest solution.  Setting strong boundaries and following through when that has not been the family dynamic is extremely hard.  Doable and in some situations, worth it, but really hard.  

 

 

Thank you for your comments.  I feel like I've done the best I could but I know I'm not perfect.  I was raised with this crap.  I'm just discovering how thick the crap is.

when you're reared with this, *major* boundary incursions at best -you think it's normal.   I remember the *required* hugs etc. to grandmamma, no matter how uncomfortable, or disliked. the required "check-in" after leaving her house.  and if we didn't call as soon as we walked through the door, we could guarantee she'd be calling to "make sure we got home okay". among other things. I thought all families were like that.  only after reaching adulthood and getting married did I fully realize just how NOT like that other families were.  I think she had a personality disorder - the ONLY protection is hard boundaries strictly enforced.

my mother was so beaten down by this woman, she was incapable of defending us.  she also had the misfortune of being an only child.  she offered us up upon the altar to grandmamma.  I eventually forgave my mother, as I understood just how damaged she was.

I do understand - but since I was the scapegoat (I wouldn't bow and kneel and kiss her feet.), I was treated very poorly.  It really ticked her off I married well.  a WEEK after the wedding, dh had to go out of town with a group of coworkers, and she went on about all men cheat when they do that. yes, she was seriously implying (as she knew enough not to directly accuse) him of cheating.  so, we've been married a week, and she's already trying to undermine my marriage.  I laughed in her face.  she really hated me - but I still had to work to get the biddy out of my head.

 

I hope to sound rude, but why don't you want to hug your mom?  Are you just not a hugger?  Could you make an exception for your mom?  She obviously wants to hug you.  Is it that big of a deal?

this isn't about a "hug".  that's merely the manifestation/tool.  it's about a parent who has NO respect for boundaries or their own child's autonomy.   you might be surprised the ramifications of having a parent have such profound disrespect for boundaries with their child can do to said child's sense of self.

eta: parents who force that type of deference that makes their children uncomfortable are setting their children up to not know - or feel comfortable saying - when someone touches them inappropriately because they are being actively taught to "just suck it up" just because it's "mom".

[gardenmom5]

Thank you so much for this post.  I feel like you really get this.  The bold is what I'm struggling with.  For me, I'm ready.  For my kids, I'm not. 

 

speaking as the grandchild of an "emotional abuser"/personality disordered, you're not doing your kids any favors by allowing this relationship to continue in their lives.  I assure you, if it's toxic for you - it's toxic for them. hard boundaries are essential - and they are in an even weaker position to choose boundaries and enforce them.

 

eta: my sister was "the first" grandchild. she was the favorite, so she could never recognize the toxicity or how it had a very negative and undermining influence on her life.  - even if she complained about her, her desire for approbation from this woman (who never gave any) was so ingrained she couldn't stop seeking it.

[AimeeM]

We are very conservative.

My husband is quite the patriarch, lol.

His jaw would drop at such a statement. I would laugh... and laugh... and laugh (I have a hard time stopping when I start). I might even tinkle a bit in my pants from the hilarity of it all.

[jrn]

:grouphug:  :grouphug: We cut contact with my family.  As difficult as the decision was, it was for the best. 

[LucyStoner]

I hope to sound rude, but why don't you want to hug your mom? Are you just not a hugger? Could you make an exception for your mom? She obviously wants to hug you. Is it that big of a deal?

Jinnah- did you bother to read Momof law's posts fully before making this incredibly obtuse and rude post? This is not about a hug or issues hugging people. At all. You owe The OP an apology. You are completely missing the key issues. The mom has been cavalier about her children's safety and has a long history of a strained, abusive relationship. She shouldn't need to hug someone if she doesn't want to, mom or not. And she certainly shouldn't have to reexplain to you issues her posts make perfectly clear. Her mother's comments to her husband are really messed up. She has every right to be angry and sad about this.

[LucyStoner]

My FIL (now dead) did say that to my husband once. It was his idea of a joke. I hadn't behaved in anyway that was offensive, my husband (then boyfriend) was cleaning up after dinner while I talked to my mom. So the issue was that he was cleaning instead of taking his dad up on his offer to go get a drink. My husband snorted loudly and ripped him a new one because it was a joke but not really a joke if that makes sense. There are many reasons my husband is my husband and this is one of them.

 

We have friends who make comments like that but it is a joke/making fun of patriarchy. We joke the same way with them.

[gardenmom5]

Jinnah- did you bother to read Momof law's posts fully before making this incredibly obtuse and rude post? This is not about a hug or issues hugging people. At all. You owe The OP an apology. You are completely missing the key issues. The mom has been cavalier about her children's safety and has a long history of a strained, abusive relationship. She shouldn't need to hug someone if she doesn't want to, mom or not. And she certainly shouldn't have to reexplain to you issues her posts make perfectly clear. Her mother's comments to her husband are really messed up. She has every right to be angry and sad about this.

I agree Jinnah was completely clueless at best, and rude at worst. (I also wonder if she actually meant to say "I mean to be rude" or if that was a typo) 

 

I've also had enough experience to realize that those who have no experience in this area, have *no experience in this area* and have a very hard time even comprehending that it is real - no matter how much they are told or read about it.  the one thing about this type of emotional abuse is the abuser frequently sets things up so that those on the outside don't see anything wrong. they even set it up so that the person being abused questions their sanity for even thinking this is wrong.  for ten years even my dh thought I was just over sensitive to an obnoxious woman. I don't remember what she did because it was so absolutely pedestrian typical of her, but I do remember his stunned look as he said "I take it back. she's as bad as you say."

 

I recall a VERY BRIEF conversation with a male family friend who also has a MS in marriage and family therapy.  I made a brief comment about one of what I saw as my grandmother's "motto's".   I will always remember the look of shock, and stopped what he was doing, as he sputtered "but that's abuse". yeah.  remember, this man is a counselor - he makes his living at this, so has presumably had patients recovering from emotional abuse, and still he struggled to wrap his head around it. 

[I.Dup.]

I went off on a woman several years ago when she was trying to cover up a molestation scandal in the church we were attending. I went off on her on a phone message when I heard some of the things she was saying about me because I was trying to bring it to light. Her husband called my husband and told him to "control his wife."

 

hahaha.

 

Dh responded "control YOUR wife."

 

We have never spoken to them again. They are these big churchy people in our community, in every homeschooling gathering, very popular, beautiful family, blah, blah, blah. It took me YEARS to get over being livid at them for what they did and how they responded to the whole thing. I still avoid them and won't be in any groups they're in.

[Guest]

when you're reared with this, *major* boundary incursions at best -you think it's normal.   I remember the *required* hugs etc. to grandmamma, no matter how uncomfortable, or disliked. the required "check-in" after leaving her house.  and if we didn't call as soon as we walked through the door, we could guarantee she'd be calling to "make sure we got home okay". among other things. I thought all families were like that.  only after reaching adulthood and getting married did I fully realize just how NOT like that other families were.  I think she had a personality disorder - the ONLY protection is hard boundaries strictly enforced.

my mother was so beaten down by this woman, she was incapable of defending us.  she also had the misfortune of being an only child.  she offered us up upon the altar to grandmamma.  I eventually forgave my mother, as I understood just how damaged she was.

I do understand - but since I was the scapegoat (I wouldn't bow and kneel and kiss her feet.), I was treated very poorly.  It really ticked her off I married well.  a WEEK after the wedding, dh had to go out of town with a group of coworkers, and she went on about all men cheat when they do that. yes, she was seriously implying (as she knew enough not to directly accuse) him of cheating.  so, we've been married a week, and she's already trying to undermine my marriage.  I laughed in her face.  she really hated me - but I still had to work to get the biddy out of my head.

 

this isn't about a "hug".  that's merely the manifestation/tool.  it's about a parent who has NO respect for boundaries or their own child's autonomy.   you might be surprised the ramifications of having a parent have such profound disrespect for boundaries with their child can do to said child's sense of self.

eta: parents who force that type of deference that makes their children uncomfortable are setting their children up to not know - or feel comfortable saying - when someone touches them inappropriately because they are being actively taught to "just suck it up" just because it's "mom".

 

 

I totally 100% agree with that for children, but OP is not a child.  I don't think she could be manipulated into inappropriate touching.  I never said to force HER kids to hug them.

[gardenmom5]

I went off on a woman several years ago when she was trying to cover up a molestation scandal in the church we were attending. I went off on her on a phone message when I heard some of the things she was saying about me because I was trying to bring it to light. Her husband called my husband and told him to "control his wife."

 

hahaha.

 

Dh responded "control YOUR wife."

 

We have never spoken to them again. They are these big churchy people in our community, in every homeschooling gathering, very popular, beautiful family, blah, blah, blah. It took me YEARS to get over being livid at them for what they did and how they responded to the whole thing.

some people are more about presentation than substance.  

[gardenmom5]

I totally 100% agree with that for children, but OP is not a child.  I don't think she could be manipulated into inappropriate touching.  I never said to force HER kids to hug them.

you lack experience in this area, and you need to do more listening and learning instead of jumping to conclusions.  what you are suggesting perpetuates the pattern of inappropriate (at best) behavior. that does have a ripple effect down the generations.

I've lived this.  

[*Lulu*]

some people are more about presentation than substance.

Totally, sadly, true.

 

One of those crappy life facts that is always learned at a price.

[Dana]

I totally 100% agree with that for children, but OP is not a child.  I don't think she could be manipulated into inappropriate touching.  I never said to force HER kids to hug them.

 

But you are saying "It's just a hug - not a big deal" (paraphrasing).

 

Even as an adult, it IS a big deal, and your comment minimizes that.

[Guest]

Jinnah- did you bother to read Momof law's posts fully before making this incredibly obtuse and rude post? This is not about a hug or issues hugging people. At all. You owe The OP an apology. You are completely missing the key issues. The mom has been cavalier about her children's safety and has a long history of a strained, abusive relationship. She shouldn't need to hug someone if she doesn't want to, mom or not. And she certainly shouldn't have to reexplain to you issues her posts make perfectly clear. Her mother's comments to her husband are really messed up. She has every right to be angry and sad about this.

 

All I have to go on is this thread.  I haven't read any of her threads.  I read that she has a strained relationship with her mother, but I don't see where she said abusive.  My answer would have been different had she said it was abusive.  If it was just a strained relationship and the mom made some exaggerated gesture to hug her, I would say the mom was trying to lighten the mood to hug her daughter, then got upset when she didn't.  If I were her mother, I would want to find out why she doesn't want to hug her.  

[Guest]

you lack experience in this area, and you need to do more listening and learning instead of jumping to conclusions.  what you are suggesting perpetuates the pattern of inappropriate (at best) behavior. that does have a ripple effect down the generations.

I've lived this.  

 

 

But you are saying "It's just a hug - not a big deal" (paraphrasing).

 

Even as an adult, it IS a big deal, and your comment minimizes that.

 

 

Honestly, I feel like a couple of you are just jumping to conclusions.  It's hard to share an opinion on this forum without someone jumping down your throat.  I don't like how people automatically assume something sinister.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of possibly healing this relationship, while some of you are looking at it from the perspective of what she has the "right" to do and not do.  I kinda felt for the mom.  It must be embarrassing to try to hug your daughter and constantly be rejected, even in front of others.  Her behavior suggests that she was embarrassed and covering the embarrassment with anger.  However, maybe OP isn't interested in healing it.  I would have suggested they sit down and have a long talk about this.  Most of you want her to turn it even more awkward with public meetings and harsh responses instead of loving ones.  Each to their own, I guess.

[ktgrok]

"Are you really going to allow your wife to behave this way?  Do you really allow this in your home?"

 

When you, the wife, are standing right there?

 

Kind-of a vent but seriously wanting to know what you think of this.

My husband would laugh. Cause he would know a good show was about to start..me tearing said person a new one.

[*Lulu*]

Asking why someone does not want a hug does not require a full out rant complete with a request that the husband control his wife.

 

Parent does not always equal loving, healthy person.

 

Do you know what kind of person gets pissy over the request for personal space-

 

The sort of person who was either only making physical contact for show or believes they have a right to control the other person's physical space/behavior. (Or a combination of the two.)

[LucyStoner]

All I have to go on is this thread. I haven't read any of her threads. I read that she has a strained relationship with her mother, but I don't see where she said abusive. My answer would have been different had she said it was abusive. If it was just a strained relationship and the mom made some exaggerated gesture to hug her, I would say the mom was trying to lighten the mood to hug her daughter, then got upset when she didn't. If I were her mother, I would want to find out why she doesn't want to hug her.

All of the information is in this very thread. You simply have not read it before posting. The fact that you keep beating this it's not a big deal drum after the OP and others have responded to you really cranks up the level from maybe unknowing to flat out unkind.

[gardenmom5]

All I have to go on is this thread.  I haven't read any of her threads.  I read that she has a strained relationship with her mother, but I don't see where she said abusive.  My answer would have been different had she said it was abusive.  If it was just a strained relationship and the mom made some exaggerated gesture to hug her, I would say the mom was trying to lighten the mood to hug her daughter, then got upset when she didn't.  If I were her mother, I would want to find out why she doesn't want to hug her.  

you know what - not everyone will use the word 'abuse'. especially someone in the early stages of recognizing behaviors they've lived with their entire life as being wrong.   not everyone will recognize emotional/mental abuse as real abuse. (you are certainly sending a message of being one of them.)  according to studies, it is just as real and damaging with long lasting effects as physical or sexual abuse.   the scars are carried on the inside where no one can see, and the psyches can be very damaged. 

 

a strained relationship and the mother tries to force a hug anyway isn't respectful, and it sure as heck doesn't send a "I love and respect you" message.  that isn't "trying to lighten the mood".  It's the mother trying to reestablish control in the relationship. hence the bigger reason of why she was upset when she didn't get her way.

 

explaining things to this woman falls under the category "don't try and teach a pig to sing. it wastes your time and annoys the pig" ways to waste time.

[Seeker of Schole]

I agree with Lisa R in this situation.  They have already crossed the boundary of not providing a safe place for your children.  (And may I say, you have let them do this by taking your children to a place where even the adults are afraid for their safety.)  They have already crossed the boundary of your personal space by forcing the (semi) intimate contact of a hug when you don't want one - to the point of physically pushing you.  (And you've allowed them to do that by going back after the first time this happened.)  Now they have crossed the boundary of your marital relationship by using your relationship with your husband to shame you and to try and guilt you into giving into their demands.  

 

What happens now is up to you.  I say this with kindness but this is an ugly situation that is going to get progressively uglier if you don't draw some very strong boundary lines.  If I were in this situation I would start by either cutting off the relationship altogether or only meeting with them in public for short periods of times.  This will solve the safety problem.  This might solve the physical boundary problem since most people will not push someone in public.  But if they cross that boundary at all, you need to be prepared to call your children and leave - immediately.  The marital boundary might be more difficult because people will often say all sorts of things as long as they do it quietly enough not to bring attention to themselves.  Again - be prepared to call your children and leave - immediately.  To tell you the truth, cutting off the relationship entirely is the easiest solution.  Setting strong boundaries and following through when that has not been the family dynamic is extremely hard.  Doable and in some situations, worth it, but really hard.  

:iagree: It sounds like it's time for even more space. Toxic people are toxic, no matter their relationship to you. It is had, extremely difficult when it is a parent :grouphug: , but sometimes distance is the best thing that can happen.

 

I hate to sound rude, but why don't you want to hug your mom?  Are you just not a hugger?  Could you make an exception for your mom?  She obviously wants to hug you.  Is it that big of a deal?

 

Why should she have to hug her mother if she doesn't want to? I am not a hugger. We did not hug much in my family growing up. Now that we are older, my parents like to hug when we depart. I go out of my comfort zone to do that for them, but that is my choice. If anyone tried to force me to hug, they would not like my response. Each person is entitled to a certain amount of personal space and comfort. Being forced out of that is not something to take lightly.

[Erin]

...

[Guest]

you know what - not everyone will use the word 'abuse'. especially someone in the early stages of recognizing behaviors they've lived with their entire life as being wrong.   not everyone will recognize emotional/mental abuse as real abuse. (you are certainly sending a message of being one of them.)  according to studies, it is just as real and damaging with long lasting effects as physical or sexual abuse.   the scars are carried on the inside where no one can see, and the psyches can be very damaged. 

 

a strained relationship and the mother tries to force a hug anyway isn't respectful, and it sure as heck doesn't send a "I love and respect you" message.  that isn't "trying to lighten the mood".  It's the mother trying to reestablish control in the relationship. hence the bigger reason of why she was upset when she didn't get her way.

 

explaining things to this woman falls under the category "don't try and teach a pig to sing. it wastes your time and annoys the pig" ways to waste time.

 

I came out of an abusive marriage and he still tries to manipulate me to this day.  Sometimes I don't recognize it until someone else points it out to me.  Maybe I just don't recognize it like some of you do.  I feel like someone on here labelled it that way (also without knowing all the details), and maybe OP wouldn't have labelled it that way, herself.  I was just trying to help her save her relationship with her mom.  That's all.  I'll keep my opinions to myself.

[Jean in Newcastle]

  I was just trying to help her save her relationship with her mom.  

The way to save the relationship is to set up healthy boundaries.  It isn't healthy for her parents to verbally abuse her.  The fact that they do it (up until now) when her kids and dh are not present, shows that they are very aware that what they are saying to her is out of line.  It isn't healthy for her parents to rule her by shame, guilt and even physical coercion (the pushing).  A healthy person might feel hurt at not getting a hug, but would gently ask what was going on and try to solve the relationship issues or at least see if it even had anything to do with relationship issues.  If the person didn't want to hug because of sensory issues etc. they would understand and accept that.  

[gardenmom5]

I came out of an abusive marriage and he still tries to manipulate me to this day.  Sometimes I don't recognize it until someone else points it out to me.  Maybe I just don't recognize it like some of you do.  I feel like someone on here labelled it that way (also without knowing all the details), and maybe OP wouldn't have labelled it that way, herself.  I was just trying to help her save her relationship with her mom.  That's all.  I'll keep my opinions to myself.

 

I hope you are in counseling to learn about why you would become involved with a anyone who would manipulate and abuse you, and how to be emotionally healthy enough to not ever do that again. 

those of us who do recognize it are much further down the of experience line at recognizing what is okay and what isn't.

[8circles]

I've been reading on my phone all morning & I didn't get to 'like' all the posts I wanted to.  But know that all of your support is very encouraging and appreciated.

I came out of an abusive marriage and he still tries to manipulate me to this day.  Sometimes I don't recognize it until someone else points it out to me.  Maybe I just don't recognize it like some of you do.  I feel like someone on here labelled it that way (also without knowing all the details), and maybe OP wouldn't have labelled it that way, herself.  I was just trying to help her save her relationship with her mom.  That's all.  I'll keep my opinions to myself.

 

 

Honestly, I feel like a couple of you are just jumping to conclusions.  It's hard to share an opinion on this forum without someone jumping down your throat.  I don't like how people automatically assume something sinister.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of possibly healing this relationship, while some of you are looking at it from the perspective of what she has the "right" to do and not do.  I kinda felt for the mom.  It must be embarrassing to try to hug your daughter and constantly be rejected, even in front of others.  Her behavior suggests that she was embarrassed and covering the embarrassment with anger.  However, maybe OP isn't interested in healing it.  I would have suggested they sit down and have a long talk about this.  Most of you want her to turn it even more awkward with public meetings and harsh responses instead of loving ones.  Each to their own, I guess.

You don't have to keep your opinions to yourself.  I just don't think you're listening.  If you are listening but just have a different opinion, that's fine, but then I really couldn't disagree with you more.  I have let go of healing the relationship & no longer have hope that it's possible.  I don't know what's to come in the future but my priority is no longer healing but surviving.  Despite what your opinion is of not hugging my parents, I've been quite loving to them.  I do love them & I pray that they will be open to getting the help that they need & healing themselves because they are miserable & I think always have been in my lifetime.  That is separate from my relationship with them.  I don't need to keep taking their abuse in order to love them & hope they find help.

 

Feel free to post as much as you'd like, even if you think I'm wrong - seriously, I've heard it all already.  I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to feel more hopeless than I already do.

[*Lulu*]

I've been reading on my phone all morning & I didn't get to 'like' all the posts I wanted to. But know that all of your support is very encouraging and appreciated.

 

 

You don't have to keep your opinions to yourself. I just don't think you're listening. If you are listening but just have a different opinion, that's fine, but then I really couldn't disagree with you more. I have let go of healing the relationship & no longer have hope that it's possible. I don't know what's to come in the future but my priority is no longer healing but surviving. Despite what your opinion is of not hugging my parents, I've been quite loving to them. I do love them & I pray that they will be open to getting the help that they need & healing themselves because they are miserable & I think always have been in my lifetime. That is separate from my relationship with them. I don't need to keep taking their abuse in order to love them & hope they find help.

 

Feel free to post as much as you'd like, even if you think I'm wrong - seriously, I've heard it all already. I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to feel more hopeless than I already do.

(((Hugs)))

 

Oh hon, I know you are overwhelmed right now but you need to hear that this is not a place of hopelessness. Just by choosing to make a change, by choosing to give your children something different, you are embracing hope.

[MinivanMom]

speaking as the grandchild of an "emotional abuser"/personality disordered, you're not doing your kids any favors by allowing this relationship to continue in their lives.  I assure you, if it's toxic for you - it's toxic for them. hard boundaries are essential - and they are in an even weaker position to choose boundaries and enforce them.

 

eta: my sister was "the first" grandchild. she was the favorite, so she could never recognize the toxicity or how it had a very negative and undermining influence on her life.  - even if she complained about her, her desire for approbation from this woman (who never gave any) was so ingrained she couldn't stop seeking it.

 

This.  If it's toxic for you, it's toxic for them.  If it's toxic for you, it's toxic for them.  Repeat until it is ingrained in your mind.

 

My mother maintained a relationship with our toxic grandmother for our sake.  Since grandma was "less" toxic with us, she couldn't see the abuse.  My mother's view of normal behavior was so skewed that she couldn't see what was right in front of her.  We were just children; there was no way we could enforce boundaries or stand up for ourselves.  It was damaging for all of us from the "golden child" down to the "scapegoat".  Thankfully, grandma died when we ranged in age from 4-15.  It could have been much, much worse if she had lived a long life.

 

Your children are probably seeing and experiencing more than you realize in this situation.  It might be a good time to take a break or time-out from your parents, if only to get some emotional space so that you can view the situation with a little more perspective and clarity.

[Guest]

I hope you are in counseling to learn about why you would become involved with a anyone who would manipulate and abuse you, and how to be emotionally healthy enough to not ever do that again. 

those of us who do recognize it are much further down the of experience line at recognizing what is okay and what isn't.

 

WOW.  You are saying I'm emotionally unhealthy because I was with an abusive man.  I wasn't the problem, as you suggest.  How absolutely ridiculous.  I need counseling because I was with someone abusive?  You are so much more experienced... lol.  You lost all credibility.  Your post, in itself, is very manipulative and condescending.  You obviously don't know much about abuse and surely don't know how to talk to a victim of abuse.  WOW.

 

ETA:  I just can't get over this.  I need to learn how to be emotionally healthy enough to not ever do that again?  I have an emotional problem and went out seeking abuse???  I'm honestly stunned.

[Guest]

I've been reading on my phone all morning & I didn't get to 'like' all the posts I wanted to.  But know that all of your support is very encouraging and appreciated.

 

 

You don't have to keep your opinions to yourself.  I just don't think you're listening.  If you are listening but just have a different opinion, that's fine, but then I really couldn't disagree with you more.  I have let go of healing the relationship & no longer have hope that it's possible.  I don't know what's to come in the future but my priority is no longer healing but surviving.  Despite what your opinion is of not hugging my parents, I've been quite loving to them.  I do love them & I pray that they will be open to getting the help that they need & healing themselves because they are miserable & I think always have been in my lifetime.  That is separate from my relationship with them.  I don't need to keep taking their abuse in order to love them & hope they find help.

 

Feel free to post as much as you'd like, even if you think I'm wrong - seriously, I've heard it all already.  I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to feel more hopeless than I already do.

 

Totally not my intent.  If you say they are abusive, then I can accept that.  I just hadn't heard you say that until this post.  It just seemed like you didn't get along with them, not necessarily that they were abusive.  I would live you to be able to salvage that relationship.  Could you explain to them why you don't want to hug at this point?  Maybe you've already tried and they didn't care and said so.  Maybe there is nothing you can do.  This is why sometimes message boards aren't the greatest for serious problems because we don't know the full story.  

 

I know someone who was just horribly rotten to her parents.  Cussed at them for nothing.  She was actually abusive to them.  Not saying YOU are like this, but I bet if she were to get on here, her story would be completely one sided and no one would know the reality.  Only YOU know the reality.  If you can salvage the relationship, that would be great.  If they are unresponsive to that, then you know what you have to do.

[Guest submarines]

That the person was a member of one of those cults where women don't have a voice and that therefore he wasn't able to fit into the society as well. After all he was exposing his utter lack of manners, wasn't he?

 

ETA: I read your update that it was your mother. I'd strongly suspect mental health issues with at least one of them. Schizophrenia is often genetic.

 

Sorry you're going through this.

[8circles]

Totally not my intent.  If you say they are abusive, then I can accept that.  I just hadn't heard you say that until this post.  It just seemed like you didn't get along with them, not necessarily that they were abusive.  I would live you to be able to salvage that relationship.  Could you explain to them why you don't want to hug at this point?  Maybe you've already tried and they didn't care and said so.  Maybe there is nothing you can do.  This is why sometimes message boards aren't the greatest for serious problems because we don't know the full story.  

 

I know someone who was just horribly rotten to her parents.  Cussed at them for nothing.  She was actually abusive to them.  Not saying YOU are like this, but I bet if she were to get on here, her story would be completely one sided and no one would know the reality.  Only YOU know the reality.  If you can salvage the relationship, that would be great.  If they are unresponsive to that, then you know what you have to do.

 

I've explained it to them so many times my face is blue.  They have no desire to understand my POV let alone actually owning-up to anything they've done.  I've never cussed at my parents or frankly hardly criticized them except to stand-up for myself.  They are clear about how I feel & why I'm not comfortable going back to how our relationship was before.  They just choose not to remember.

 

[Guest]

I've explained it to them so many times my face is blue.  They have no desire to understand my POV let alone actually owning-up to anything they've done.  I've never cussed at my parents or frankly hardly criticized them except to stand-up for myself.  They are clear about how I feel & why I'm not comfortable going back to how our relationship was before.  They just choose not to remember.

 

 

Totally didn't mean that you behave as my friend did!  My point is that you know the entire story, and we don't.  If you don't feel it can be salvaged, just let it go.  It doesn't sound like she is going to let go of the hugging thing.  I was just hoping for a better ending since they are your parents.  :)

[gardenmom5]

WOW.  You are saying I'm emotionally unhealthy because I was with an abusive man.  I wasn't the problem, as you suggest.  How absolutely ridiculous.  I need counseling because I was with someone abusive?  You are so much more experienced... lol.  You lost all credibility.  Your post, in itself, is very manipulative and condescending.  You obviously don't know much about abuse and surely don't know how to talk to a victim of abuse.  WOW.

 

ETA:  I just can't get over this.  I need to learn how to be emotionally healthy enough to not ever do that again?  I have an emotional problem and went out seeking abuse???  I'm honestly stunned.

no one, and I certainly didn't, suggest you sought abuse. no sane person would.  but abusers send out flags that you obviously missed or you wouldn't have married him.  those who know what to look for, see those flags.  My suggestion was purely about learning the subtle signs so you will see those flags in the future.  just based upon your comments in this thread it is very clear you don't see the abuse flags we're talking about here.

I've explained it to them so many times my face is blue.  They have no desire to understand my POV let alone actually owning-up to anything they've done.  I've never cussed at my parents or frankly hardly criticized them except to stand-up for myself.  They are clear about how I feel & why I'm not comfortable going back to how our relationship was before.  They just choose not to remember.

 

they aren't capable of understanding another pov. it is their weakness, their problem and you can't fix it for them.   my grandmother was a miserable person, and did many things to make those around her miserable like herself.  yes she was probably sexually abused by her alcoholic father - but she was an adult when she married, had a child, moved away, and treated her own family like dirt.

[Guest]

no one, and I certainly didn't, suggest you sought abuse. no sane person would.  but abusers send out flags that you obviously missed or you wouldn't have married him.  those who know what to look for, see those flags.  My suggestion was purely about learning the subtle signs so you will see those flags in the future.  just based upon your comments in this thread it is very clear you don't see the abuse flags we're talking about here.

they aren't capable of understanding another pov. it is their weakness, their problem and you can't fix it for them.   my grandmother was a miserable person, and did many things to make those around her miserable like herself.  yes she was probably sexually abused by her alcoholic father - but she was an adult when she married, had a child, moved away, and treated her own family like dirt.

 

You should re-read your post.  What you are saying now is very different from what you said in that post:  "I hope you are in counseling to learn about why you would become involved with a anyone who would manipulate and abuse you, and how to be emotionally healthy enough to not ever do that again."   That does not translate to I hope you learn the subtle signs so you see those flags in the future.  Also, people don't always put out flags that they are abusive.  We met at 14.  We were very young.  Honestly, I don't know why I'm explaining this to you.  Your views are so far off it just doesn't matter, and I don't have the time, energy, or need to argue this.  I'll just move along with my day and pretend I didn't read your original post.

[Word Nerd]

I was just hoping for a better ending since they are your parents.   :)

 

I get where you're coming from, but given that the OP's parents are physically (in the literal sense) and emotionally shoving her around, I think the onus is on them to make the ending better. Based on what the OP has shared, the hugging seems to be more about manipulation and control than about genuine affection and love. 

[gardenmom5]

You should re-read your post.  What you are saying now is very different from what you said in that post:  "I hope you are in counseling to learn about why you would become involved with a anyone who would manipulate and abuse you, and how to be emotionally healthy enough to not ever do that again."   That does not translate to I hope you learn the subtle signs so you see those flags in the future.  Also, people don't always put out flags that they are abusive.  We met at 14.  We were very young.  Honestly, I don't know why I'm explaining this to you.  Your views are so far off it just doesn't matter, and I don't have the time, energy, or need to argue this.  I'll just move along with my day and pretend I didn't read your original post.

I apologize for not being clear - what I said both times is the same.   you miss the flags of an abuser.  abusers can be charming, those who are emotionally healthy still see the flags through the charm.  age is irrelevant.  I know too many cases where others, not the "charmed" girl (or woman) saw the flags, but the girl (or woman) either couldn't or wouldn't.  I've also known at least one woman who acknowledged the flags before the wedding, but chose to ignore them anyway. to her regret.

 

people who are emotionally healthy can see the flags, and know to go the other way. 

 

this thread has been about someone else's abusive family - and while a number of us are saying TO HER "red flag", you have told the op she needs to suck it up to have a relationship with her mother.  that is just one more indicator you do not see red flags.

 

I only know of one woman who I will agree didn't see flags for a good reason. I believe God didn't want her to see, until a month after she married the jerk. at which point she saw clearly and did not tolerate - and basically told him if he wanted to beat the crap out of his daughter he'd have to go through her, and if he touched her he'd better never go to sleep.  because she was married to him - she got custody of HIS two daughters in their divorce, and she got them out of an abusive home.

[Guest]

I apologize for not being clear - what I said both times is the same.   you miss the flags of an abuser.  abusers can be charming, those who are emotionally healthy still see the flags through the charm.  age is irrelevant.  I know too many cases where others, not the "charmed" girl (or woman) saw the flags, but the girl (or woman) either couldn't or wouldn't.  I've also known at least one woman who acknowledged the flags before the wedding, but chose to ignore them anyway. to her regret.

 

people who are emotionally healthy can see the flags, and know to go the other way. 

 

this thread has been about someone else's abusive family - and while a number of us are saying TO HER "red flag", you have told the op she needs to suck it up to have a relationship with her mother.  that is just one more indicator you do not see red flags.

 

I only know of one woman who I will agree didn't see flags for a good reason. I believe God didn't want her to see, until a month after she married the jerk. at which point she saw clearly and did not tolerate - and basically told him if he wanted to beat the crap out of his daughter he'd have to go through her, and if he touched her he'd better never go to sleep.  because she was married to him - she got custody of HIS two daughters in their divorce, and she got them out of an abusive home.

 

You have reiterated that you feel abuse victims are emotionally unhealthy.  You are so wrong.  Many abusers are good at manipulating.  Please stop saying such hurtful things.  I'm not the only abuse victim on here that you are offending.  You are obviously not someone who should speak on this subject, and it seems as if your ego is preventing you from seeing that.  I had reason for mentioning age, but decided not to go into that with you, and forgot to delete that.    

 

I did not tell her to suck it up and ignore abuse.  You are being very manipulative and you need to stop.