Our Male Children and the Female Body

[Haiku]

he will get the idea that breasts are sexual objects designed only for a man’s pleasure and have no practical use.

Looking at lots of boobs will not make him immune from this. The male half of the species is generally far more visually stimulated than the female half, and I'm very comfortable betting that, if it hasn't already happened, your son will eventually become aroused by seeing a woman's breast, even if she's nursing. Hormonal boys have no control over how their bodies respond to visual stimuli. If you stridently insist to him that boobs should only be regarded as the sacred and magical life-giving treasures you want him to see them as, I bet he won't come talk to you about erections.

 

There can be big differences between 9, 10, and 11 year old boys in terms of sexual maturity. At 9 my son was like, "Oh, boobs, nursing." At 10 he's like, "Oh, boobs, sex." Nothing has changed except his internal chemistry.

[Χά�ων]

what if, for whatever reason, the mother of his children does not want to breastfeed - or doesn't want to do so in public?  Do her feelings matter slightly more than his? 

What rule is there that he could not nurse his young?

[Χά�ων]

This conversation is so strange. I was never able to breastfeed. I could have had I opted for surgery, but dh and I both decided that was not what we wanted. Dh is not freaked out by nursing women, but he doesn't stare them down and watch the entire process. He looks away while they get settled, and then continues his conversation while facing them. I don't think anyone needs to watch the process closely to decide its normal and/or what's best. I also look elsewhere while my friends are getting settled. I think women should be able to nurse anywhere, but I also think they should be able to nurse anywhere without people watching their every move.

If he was making eye contact with the women then why would he have to look away?

[unsinkable]

So wait, now you want you son to breast feed his children?

[Χά�ων]

I nursed all 4 of mine and plan to with #5. I NEVER flashed any nipple or areola when nursing in public. I also didn't use a cover-up because that was just a game for the baby to try to pull it off. Whenever my ILs were around I would have to go into another room to nurse. They would stare at me the entire time which was very unnerving. I was told by MIL that breastfeeding was gross & that "her pediatrician" said that formula was better.

Never? So your babies were quick to latch on and never popped off to look around and you were so skilled that you were able to pop them off and cover your breast up with never a slip?  Impressive, you are the only women I know not to have an issue.

 

Your IL's attitude is what I hope to prevent.

[SKL]

Your son won't know that breasts produce milk unless he sees it with his own eyes, many times throughout his childhood?  My daughters have seen very little breastfeeding and yet they know breasts are used to feed babies (under certain circs), and I am certain they will not ever forget this fact.  When and if they have children, I expect them to make an educated choice regarding how to feed their babies.

 

Your recent posts leave me concerned that you are way beyond a "supporter" of breastfeeding.  It's true that dads can produce milk, and I'm sure that's good for kids to know, but no, I don't expect either a dad or mom or anyone else to feel compelled to produce milk via any possible means just to be able to check the "we breastfed" box on the Perfect Parenting Index.  I think that if your son grows up to be that adamant about breastfeeding to the point of putting it ahead of his wife's feelings, he might not be a great husband overall.

[Word Nerd]

Almost all my friends’ children are weaned and I worry that with many of DS mainstream friends who do not have a grasp on the original use of a women’s breast and who only know that they must be something desirable because they are always covered up or they hear how they should be covered up, he will get the idea that breasts are sexual objects designed only for a man’s pleasure and have no practical use.

 

I think your worry is overblown. How do you know what your DS's "mainstream" friends know about nursing? How do you know what their mothers are teaching them about it? It's ironic that you say you want to encourage breastfeeding, yet you seem to be subtly criticizing nursing moms who don't "let it all hang out" for not doing their part to desensitize boys to the sight of breasts. How is that helpful?

[Χά�ων]

I think your worry is overblown. How do you know what your DS's "mainstream" friends know about nursing? How do you know what their mothers are teaching them about it? It's ironic that you say you want to encourage breastfeeding, yet you seem to be subtly criticizing nursing moms who don't "let it all hang out" for not doing their part to desensitize boys to the sight of breasts. 

Per his friends: I hear the talking. It's not hard since they are always hungry and do not change or slow their conversation when they come inside for a snack. My house is a very open floor plan.

 

Per their parents: We talk.

 

Not just boys, girls need to see breastfeeding as normal so they can be comfortable as mothers.

[Moxie]

What rule is there that he could not nurse his young?

Ok, I'm out. You've jumped the shark here!

[Laurie4b]

I find your post  confusing because it sounds like you're already providing your son with the experience you want him to have. What's the point of the post? Is it a JAWM?

 

It's also confusing, because it reads as a mixture of "I want my son to promote breast-feeding" and "Breastfeeding is normal and it's right to advocate for it being done in public" but then it sounds like you are saying:  "Women should nurse this way so that my son & other boys have a chance to see them and they are wrong for not doing so."

 

I find the last part somewhat bizarre. Paradoxically, writing that women should do __________ with their bodies regardless of what they want for the sake of a male (however young) is a little backwards to your point. I fully support public nursing, but I don't support a campaign to guilt women into doing it for any reason, let alone for  the sake of other people's sons' education.

 

 

FWIW, I nursed 4 sons, often in public and did not care to flash. I wore a sling and used a blanket or something to cover on top.

 

How much modesty a woman has about her breasts is her choice. Some women may not be making their choice based on society but on their own level of comfort. Around here, women sometimes nurse totally uncovered, but others won't nurse in public at all, even covered. Their choice.

 

I don't think seeing a lot of nursing mothers is going to affect how your son feels about the sexuality of breasts when the time comes. That's a good thing, right? And as many others have written, I don't think that not seeing a lot of exposed nursing breasts means a man cannot be a major advocate of nursing.

[Χά�ων]

So wait, now you want you son to breast feed his children?

I want him to know it is possible and an option if his spouse is unable to.

[SKL]

I want him to know it is possible and an option if his spouse is unable to.

 

So tell him that.  Your posts imply that others are doing it wrong if they choose formula over the male breast.  Did your kids' father breastfeed?  What's his take on this particular part of your argument?

[Word Nerd]

 

 

Not just boys, girls need to see breastfeeding as normal so they can be comfortable as mothers.

 

I agree, and I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise. It is just as normal to breastfeed with a cover or in one's home as it is to breastfeed in public or uncovered.

[SKL]

Maybe you should also be advocating for men to be nursing around your son, lest he grow up to believe male breasts don't have a potential feeding function.  I mean, if he needs to see it regularly to believe it . . . .

[Χά�ων]

I agree, and I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise.

I just wanted to make sure it was said.

[SKL]

And how do you propose to teach your son about how the sperm gets to the egg - if he really has to see it to believe it?

[fairfarmhand]

Question for those who were unable to produce enough milk to feed their young or who were otherwise unable to nurse. Did you use a lact aid supplemental nursing system? Did you husband attempt to produce milk to nourish his young?

 

okay...I find things getting strange.

 

You seem like you are judging all mothers/parents who do not make breastfeeding top priority for their children. If  you pass that attitude on to your son and he will become an obnoxious boor, castigating women who choose to bottle feed their babies.

 

People bottle feed for millions of reasons, many of which, have nothing to do with their opinions of women's breasts or convenience.

 

If you see a child being bottle fed, you can't know, in general whether that bottle contains formula or breast milk.

 

Judging people is not helpful. You don't know whether a child has issues that prevented him from nursing well. You can't know whether a mother is on medication that prevents her from nursing. I nursed 2 of my 4 for a year. The first two were nursed for 3 and 6 months respectively. At 3 months, with my oldest, I could not produce enough milk. I was very young and ignorant. I felt bad about it. She, ironically, is the healthiest of all my kids.

 

My second child was allergic to breast milk. Despite my severe dietary restriction, she still had blisters in her colon from her reaction to breast milk and pooped blood until she was on a particular type of formula. She screamed nonstop until we began using formula. I was a wreck when I weaned her, but when it was over, I was glad we did because she was such a happy healthy baby at that point.

 

Teach your son that breastfeeding is good and natural. But don't go overboard.  In the end this is a personal decision between a woman, her husband and her baby.

[texasmama]

I'm not sure that your end goal is at all connected with your means of reaching it.  Additionally, if we, as parents, overpromote our own values (however fabulous and scientific and right they are, as in the case of breastfeeding), we run a very real risk of causing our children to reject that which we value.

 

I have thought about and had to consider how to manage my own feelings if my daughters decide for whatever reason that they do not want to breastfeed or are unable to for some reason.  I cannot imagine personally putting any pressure, however slight) on my sons to breastfeed their children.  Induced lactation is a monumental task which often has limited positive outcomes, for one.

 

(Breastfed all of my four kids, one of them until the age of almost four years old, in private, in public, in front of the olders, etc. so definitely pro-breastfeeding here.)

[Χά�ων]

So tell him that.  Your posts imply that others are doing it wrong if they choose formula over the male breast.  Did your kids' father breastfeed?  What's his take on this particular part of your argument?

The only one who did moved when he was two. The rest of my friends have not had any problems with nursing or received enough support to correct any issues that came up to make nursing as painless as possible. The only exception was a mom who was low supply and used a lact aid. Her husband had the same problem though and gave up when he could not pump enough to help.

[Χά�ων]

I'm not sure that your end goal is at all connected with your means of reaching it.  Additionally, if we, as parents, overpromote our own values (however fabulous and scientific and right they are, as in the case of breastfeeding), we run a very real risk of causing our children to reject that which we value.

 

 

I agree. I say very little about it and prefer DS just be exposed to it as a normal activity.

[unsinkable]

I want him to know it is possible and an option if his spouse is unable to.

It might be *possible* but it's not *probable* that he'd be able to successfully breast feed his kids even given the knowledge.

 

Adoptive moms have a heck of a time trying to establish a milk supply.

 

Of all the things I want for my boys, breast feeding their kids is not even on the list.

[LostSurprise]

Perhaps I'm a child of the '70s, but I've known several boys/men who grew up in...oh, let's call them 'hippie'...environments. Environments where breasts/very open breastfeeding were prevalent. While it did make them comfortable with the idea of breastfeeding (if they were comfortable with the idea of reproducing at all), it did not change their eventual sexualization of breasts. Its a part of our culture. One in which Mom is not always included. 

 

I think its healthy for children of both sexes to see breastfeeding, covered or uncovered. Even if our boys end up seeing the breast as sexual, it will only broaden their view and make their attraction even more mysterious and wonderful.

[I.Dup.]

whoa.

[fairfarmhand]

whoa.

 

mmmmhmmmm.....

[unsinkable]

The only exception was a mom who was low supply and used a lact aid. Her husband had the same problem though and gave up when he could not pump enough to help.

Boy, that dad sounds like a real quitter! He just gave up, huh?

[Χά�ων]

okay...I find things getting strange.

 

You seem like you are judging all mothers/parents who do not make breastfeeding top priority for their children. If  you pass that attitude on to your son and he will become an obnoxious boor, castigating women who choose to bottle feed their babies.

 

People bottle feed for millions of reasons, many of which, have nothing to do with their opinions of women's breasts or convenience.

 

If you see a child being bottle fed, you can't know, in general whether that bottle contains formula or breast milk.

 

Judging people is not helpful. You don't know whether a child has issues that prevented him from nursing well. You can't know whether a mother is on medication that prevents her from nursing. I nursed 2 of my 4 for a year. The first two were nursed for 3 and 6 months respectively. At 3 months, with my oldest, I could not produce enough milk. I was very young and ignorant. I felt bad about it. She, ironically, is the healthiest of all my kids.

 

My second child was allergic to breast milk. Despite my severe dietary restriction, she still had blisters in her colon from her reaction to breast milk and pooped blood until she was on a particular type of formula. She screamed nonstop until we began using formula. I was a wreck when I weaned her, but when it was over, I was glad we did because she was such a happy healthy baby at that point.

 

Teach your son that breastfeeding is good and natural. But don't go overboard.  In the end this is a personal decision between a woman, her husband and her baby.

 

Not judging, just asking. So few people know about all the options available (lact-aid, male breastfeeding) and so many women try breastfeeding without proper support and quickly switch to formula instead of looking at all the options.

 

Some babies need special formula and I applaud you for working so hard on changing your diet to accommodate her needs. I am also assuming finding the right formula was no easy task.

[Χά�ων]

Boy, that dad sounds like a real quitter! He just gave up, huh?

After almost 6 months of attempting to express enough milk for the baby he finally gave in. He could not find a lactation specialist willing to help him. It was a very sad time for them but thanks to the lact aid they were still able to have the bonding that comes with nursing.

[SKL]

I'm pro-breastfeeding but I'm not pro-martyrdom.

 

My kids were adopted and I had no opportunity to breastfeed them.  None.  My kids didn't grow two heads.  You can't tell in a group of kids who was breastfed and who wasn't.  This is starting to sound like a "why I'm the better mom" discussion, which IMO is extremely unhelpful.

[SKL]

After almost 6 months of attempting to express enough milk for the baby he finally gave in. He could not find a lactation specialist willing to help him. It was a very sad time for them but thanks to the lact aid they were still able to have the bonding that comes with nursing.

 

Sounds to me like there is a lot of pressure in your circle to do things a certain way or feel like a failure.  I worry about your friends if you are interrogating them about their husbands' pumping efforts.  My goodness.  Is the baby breathing and moving?

[unsinkable]

After almost 6 months of attempting to express enough milk for the baby he finally gave in. He could not find a lactation specialist willing to help him. It was a very sad time for them but thanks to the lact aid they were still able to have the bonding that comes with nursing.

Yeah, but still. There are male LCs. Why didn't find a male LC?

 

Did he really, really look? Because with Skype these days, it's possible to consult even tho you're miles apart.

[Χά�ων]

Sounds to me like there is a lot of pressure in your circle to do things a certain way or feel like a failure. I worry about your friends if you are interrogating them about their husbands' pumping efforts. My goodness. Is the baby breathing and moving?

No pressure, the mom was sharing her families journey in nursing.

[Χά�ων]

Yeah, but still. There are male LCs. Why didn't find a male LC?

 

Did he really, really look? Because with Skype these days, it's possible to consult even tho you're miles apart.

 

I didn't ask, not my bussiness.

 

There are no male LC in my area.

 

ETA to add "male"

[Haiku]

My son was adopted at age 2 and was in an orphanage before that. He was not breastfed. Some raving pro-breastfeeding fanatic told him that's why he has asthma and allergies.

 

Love those pro-breastfeeding champions who feel it's their duty to inform the world!

 

Incidentally, I nursed my daughter for 2 years. I'm not anti-breastfeeding. I'm anti-fanaticism.

[unsinkable]

I didn't ask, not my bussiness.

 

There are no LC in my area.

But it's all our business, isn't it? I thought that was the point of this thread...making the world a better breast feeding place?

 

You could have improved the lot of breast feeding dads every where!

[Χά�ων]

But it's all our business, isn't it? I thought that was the point of this thread...making the world a better breast feeding place?

 

You could have improved the lot of breast feeding dads every where!

Google search it. There story is out there if you look.

[Mom-ninja.]

My boys see my breasts all the time whether I'm nursing or not. They don't find it weird or uncomfortable. They've seen other women's breasts. They've probably seen more breasts than most boys their age. They are not damaged, ashamed, or uncomfortable. As they start to become sexually mature they will understand that context is everything when it comes to sexuality.

 

I just don't feel any need what so ever to shield my boys from seeing breasts. I don't care if the woman is nursing or not. If we go to a beach and see topless women....I don't care.

 

Geesh, all those poor boys and men in Europe at the beaches, pools, and lakes must be so uncomfortable with all those bare breasts around. The you've got bare breasts in TV in the middle of the day in shampoo commercials, bare breasts on the front of magazines and TV guides, bare breasts on billboards, etc. I wonder how they deal with it. :001_rolleyes: Poor souls.

[I.Dup.]

I honestly had no idea that Dads breastfed for their kids. Learn something new every day. Apparently, I do not know the right kind of men! ...

[Haiku]

Geesh, all those poor boys and men in Europe at the beaches, pools, and lakes must be so uncomfortable with all those bare breasts around. The you've got bare breasts in TV in the middle of the day in shampoo commercials, bare breasts on the front of magazines and TV guides, bare breasts on billboards, etc. I wonder how they deal with it. :001_rolleyes: Poor souls.

Like you said, context is everything. It's the norm there. It's not the norm in the US.

[HRAAB]

I haven't read all the replies, but I'm trying to figure out what I think about this.

 

My dh comes from a family of 14 children, 9 of them boys, and his mother nursed all of them. All 14! They grew up with a mom that was always breastfeeding a baby or two. My dh is the biggest proponent of breastfeeding I have ever met. Even before we had children, I knew he wanted them breastfed. He encouraged me incredibly with our first, when I was nervous and unsure, whether we were alone at home or out with our dd. All of his brothers have been exactly the same. Breastfeeding was absolutely normal and the babies were meant to be fed.

 

However, I can assure everyone that my mil never intentionally flashed a bare breast at any of her children. Just through the normal course of nursing, there are going to be some random sightings, but you don't have to entirely expose your breasts for your sons to figure out that breasts are for nursing and it is a normal and healthy activity.

 

I could see having a few pointed lessons with diagrams/drawings about how breasts work for your kids, but even I wouldn't be comfortable showing my breasts for the sake of showing them and I'm not exactly a prude. I nursed all 5 of my children for 3+ years each and did it everywhere I went when they were hungry, but I never thought of it as a lesson for those around me. It was simply feeding my baby, between baby and mommy. I see now where maybe I did provide some lessons on healthy, natural breastfeeding considering how much of it I've done over the years, but it wasn't my main focus. Actually, I hope I did provide a good, healthy example of a breastfeeding mom.

[Tap]

What rule is there that he could not nurse his young?

 Pump a man fully of artificial female hormones, not just enough to make his breasts swell, but enough to make his body lactate and then latch a baby onto him.  Yeah, because that would be natural and those extra hormones in the breast milk....oh, well as long as we are destigmatizing male breast feeding, it is worth having a male baby with breasts as well. 

 

We really need to start thinking about this. It would be possible to use a goat as a surrogate as well (they are more portable that cows of course --a cow would be just be silly talk! LOL). In fact, I bet you could count a goat as a service animal so you could take it into public places. For a woman who can't nurse their child, you know it would be possible for the baby to latch directly onto the goat!  Nothing like fresh milk on the go! It may be hard to use a Hooter Hider on a goat, so it maybe best to just let it all hang out. 

 

 

Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is healthy for the baby

[Scarlett]

was told by MIL that breastfeeding was gross & that "her pediatrician" said that formula was better.

LOL. HER pediatrician......that is hilarious.

[Χά�ων]

 

Geesh, all those poor boys and men in Europe at the beaches, pools, and lakes must be so uncomfortable with all those bare breasts around. The you've got bare breasts in TV in the middle of the day in shampoo commercials, bare breasts on the front of magazines and TV guides, bare breasts on billboards, etc. I wonder how they deal with it. :001_rolleyes: Poor souls.

Not sure if it is still the case but my father told many stories of his navy days when he was on leave and used the public restrooms that had no stalls and was just a line of toilets and a women walked in a sat down next to him and did her business.

[texasmama]

  Nothing like fresh milk on the go! It may be hard to use a Hooter Hider on a goat, so it maybe best to just let it all hang out.

Spit my coffee on the keyboard funny!

[unsinkable]

 

Google search it. There story is out there if you look.

Oh, I know all about them.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OkcucXIuVI

[Χά�ων]

 Pump a man fully of artificial female hormones, not just enough to make his breasts swell, but enough to make his body lactate and then latch a baby onto him.  Yeah, because that would be natural and those extra hormones in the breast milk....oh, well as long as we are destigmatizing male breast feeding, it is worth having a male baby with breasts as well. 

 

We really need to start thinking about this. It would be possible to use a goat as a surrogate as well (they are more portable that cows of course --a cow would be just be silly talk! LOL). In fact, I bet you could count a goat as a service animal so you could take it into public places. For a woman who can't nurse their child, you know it would be possible for the baby to latch directly onto the goat!  Nothing like fresh milk on the go! It may be hard to use a Hooter Hider on a goat, so it maybe best to just let it all hang out. 

 

 

Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is healthy for the baby

Men do not need female hormones to produce milk.

 

 

 

I do know a family where the mom's milk dried up at 9 months for each of her babies and they just fed the baby goats milk until the baby was a year.

[Χά�ων]

 Pump a man fully of artificial female hormones, not just enough to make his breasts swell, but enough to make his body lactate and then latch a baby onto him.  Yeah, because that would be natural and those extra hormones in the breast milk....oh, well as long as we are destigmatizing male breast feeding, it is worth having a male baby with breasts as well. 

 

We really need to start thinking about this. It would be possible to use a goat as a surrogate as well (they are more portable that cows of course --a cow would be just be silly talk! LOL). In fact, I bet you could count a goat as a service animal so you could take it into public places. For a woman who can't nurse their child, you know it would be possible for the baby to latch directly onto the goat!  Nothing like fresh milk on the go! It may be hard to use a Hooter Hider on a goat, so it maybe best to just let it all hang out. 

 

 

Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is healthy for the baby

Men do not need female hormones to produce milk.

 

 

 

I do know a family where the mom's milk dried up at 9 months for each of her babies and they just fed the baby goats milk until the baby was a year.

[SKL]

Good point about the hormones.  When I was waiting for my kids to come home via adoption, I got all excited about the possibility of adoptive breastfeeding.  I did some research.  I would have liked to try all except for the chemical part of it.  I would not take some chemilcal to artificially make myself do something that is supposedly natural.  It can be possible to do it without drugs, but it isn't for sure and it's very time consuming and it isn't likely to ever be enough to take make formula unnecessary.  Ultimately I decided that it wouldn't produce enough bang for the buck, given that I was bringing two babies home at the same time, they were old enough to drink cow's milk at that point, and as a single working mom, I wouldn't have time for all that "trying."  It is a nice idea but so what if not everyone wants to do it?

[Χά�ων]

 

 

Oh, I know all about them.

 

Your ignorance is WHY I insist on my son being exposed to this so that it is normal.

[Moxie]

I honestly had no idea that Dads breastfed for their kids. Learn something new every day. Apparently, I do not know the right kind of men! ...

How do you know that you don't know any breastfeeding men?!? I bet you haven't even bothered to ask them! I'm sure breastfeeding Dads are actually quite common!!

[Joker]

This is the most ridiculous thread I've seen in a while. Seriously, I don't want to put so much pressure on my dds to breastfeed in case they're like me and are unable. If they choose not to just because they don't want to, that is okay as well.

 

And no, we never thought of dh doing the job. Becoming a parent can be difficult enough without adding in extra pressure that doesn't really need to be there. Both of my bottle fed children turned out great. This thread has just made me extremely happy there were not people like the OP in my world when my children were young.