Ask an atheist

[AlmiraGulch]

How do you as an atheist explain or account for various theist beliefs throughout history? Do you think religious beliefs were formed to explain natural things? Do you foresee a future where all religious beliefs are replaced by science?

 

 

Yes, I think that's how it all started, for sure. It's all illustrated very well in the movie Zeitgeist that I referenced earlier.

 

I don't believe that all religious beliefs will ever be replaced by science. People need and crave religion for a variety of reasons, the least of which is, anymore, to explain natural things. They want to be a part of something "bigger". They want to be part of a community. It gives people hope. It assigns reward and consequence in a very grand sense. So, no, I don't think religion will ever give way to science entirely.

 

ETA: I want to think that theist beliefs came about because of this, but that organized religion has always been (and in many cases remains) a means to control the populace, in both deed and money.

[Lady Florida.]

How do you as an atheist explain or account for various theist beliefs throughout history? Do you think religious beliefs were formed to explain natural things?

 

That, and as a way to keep people in line.

 

 

Do you foresee a future where all religious beliefs are replaced by science?

 

 

I hope so, but I know it won't be in my lifetime.

[BlueTaelon]

How do you as an atheist explain or account for various theist beliefs throughout history? Do you think religious beliefs were formed to explain natural things? Do you foresee a future where all religious beliefs are replaced by science?

 

 

I think its a couple things, one to explain that which we don't yet understand and later because it gave men a way to control people. When you look at the history of many religions its all about controlling the people.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

I think its a couple things, one to explain that which we don't yet understand and later because it gave men a way to control people. When you look at the history of many religions its all about controlling the people.

 

This.

[LucyStoner]

 

That, and as a way to keep people in line.

 

 

I agree with that as well. Religion has been an unholy mix with politics at many points in history.

 

Also "pie in the sky when you die" is a great way to convince people that injustice and inequity on earth ("work and pray, live on hay") is a-ok peachy keen IMO. Says the descendent of Wobblies. ;)

[Molly]

I'm not an atheist, but someone very close to me recently confided to me that they are. This person is a made atheist. Said person was a very strong believer at one point but began to see inconsistencies. They found that the more they searched, the less sense Christianity made to them.

 

Yes, I have had the same situation recently. We both were professing Christians and then she started looking at things and decided she was an atheist instead. I read much of what had convinced her of the inconsistencies in the bible, and also other points of view, and through it all my faith has grown. It is certainly interesting how different people come to different conclusions in life.

 

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

[albeto]

My only question is whether there is a reason that people often use agnostic and atheist interchangeably? Is it meant to demean one or the other? Are there more similarities and overlaps between them that make it reasonable? I've always heard that agnostics believe there is a higher power but that religion is man-made whereas atheists don't believe in any higher power. Is that correct or just a misunderstanding? And I'm sorry for the really stupid question, LOL, I realize it is a doozy.

 

Not a stupid question at all. A lot of people use these words interchangeably. By definition, agnostic means "a" = without + "gnosis" = knowledge; atheist means "a" = without + "theism" = belief in god/s.

 

One refers to knowledge, the other refers to belief.

[albeto]

But I'm in a wonky kind of place already being both an atheist and religious.

 

How does this work for you? Have you talked about this and I've just missed it? This concept makes me curious.

 

:)

[albeto]

I've got an anonymous question via PM to post here for answers.

 

"Is an atheist born or made?"

 

Both, I think. I recall attending a skeptics conference last year in which one presenter talked about child development. After her talk I asked her about children who are raised without religious beliefs. She explained to me that it's natural, from around age 7 or 8, to make the kinds of connections that superstitious beliefs are based upon. In other words, left to their own devices, children would come up with a superstitious belief without specific encouragement. In that respect, I think atheists are "made" in that a mature mentor would ideally help the child to incorporate developing rational thought into his/her thinking process. But at birth, there's no pre-wired belief system, which explains why children grow up to accept the religious beliefs of their family. In other words, it's not a coincidence that a person grows up thinking their particular religion is the really right one, in opposition to all the others competing for that distinction.

[albeto]

How do you as an atheist explain or account for various theist beliefs throughout history? Do you think religious beliefs were formed to explain natural things? Do you foresee a future where all religious beliefs are replaced by science?

 

Belief in agency (a "force" behind events that would otherwise be considered unrelated) is a natural part of human cognition. Here is an explanation that makes sense out of this:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200803/why-do-we-believe-in-god (part 1)

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200803/why-do-we-believe-in-god-ii (part 2)

 

It's not a long read.

 

:)

[livetoread]

I was definitely made. I was a life-long Christian, very active and serious about my belief. Eventually, I wasn't, due to life experiences and being exposed to new ideas.

[albeto]

Does atheist simply mean no belief in an all-encompassing creating deity? Or can you believe in a kind of "cosmic consciousness" that is organic, but nothing more than part of our natural world? Would that fall into a pagan category. Sorry, I have scattered thoughts and I'm out of coffee.

 

Atheism simply refers to lacking a theistic belief. That means anything beyond a lack of belief in god/s falls into a different category than atheism. So, yeah, an atheist can believe in cosmic spiritualism, the magic of numbers, reincarnation, astrology, bigfoot, aliens building the Egyptian pyramids, and any other non-theist belief.

[albeto]

Why are so many atheists so militant about it? Why can't you just inwardly roll your eyes at what religious folks believe but keep your opinions about it to yourself?

 

I consider myself to be an anti-theist. This goes beyond atheism (a/theism = lack of belief in god/s), and includes the belief that religious belief is ultimately detrimental to society. Having said that, I would be curious in what you mean by "militant." I think of this when I hear the term (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistactivism/tp/YouMightBeMilitantAtheist.htm?nl=1), but I suspect you mean something different.

 

I usually do keep my opinions to myself, but if I understand any particular conversation to encourage open participation, I will offer my opinion even if it is contrary to the most popular opinion. I'm not very good at recognizing this online (I tend to assume conversations do encourage open participation even when they don't), but offline, I'm generally silent. In my opinion, a conversation with the neighbor about how her husband is doing, for example, isn't the appropriate time to pick apart the concept about the effectiveness about prayer. If she asks, sure I'll answer, but if she doesn't ask, I won't offer because it's likely unrelated. On an online discussion forum, however, especially one that has been created to support educators in the field of teaching critical thinking to children, I tend to assume it's an appropriate place to contribute those opinions. I hope that makes sense, but my brain is a little fried right now.

[Χά�ων]

 

Both, I think. I recall attending a skeptics conference last year in which one presenter talked about child development. After her talk I asked her about children who are raised without religious beliefs. She explained to me that it's natural, from around age 7 or 8, to make the kinds of connections that superstitious beliefs are based upon. In other words, left to their own devices, children would come up with a superstitious belief without specific encouragement. In that respect, I think atheists are "made" in that a mature mentor would ideally help the child to incorporate developing rational thought into his/her thinking process. But at birth, there's no pre-wired belief system, which explains why children grow up to accept the religious beliefs of their family. In other words, it's not a coincidence that a person grows up thinking their particular religion is the really right one, in opposition to all the others competing for that distinction.

Would you happen to have the name of the presenter or a website? I find this topic fascinating. It also explains why some of the local churched feel so strongly about reaching young children. I have raised DS without religious beliefs and with almost no contact with organized religion aside from attending a ethnic festivals at various faith temples/churches a few times a year. Around 7 my ds decided he believed in the Ancient Greek Gods and identified with Poseidon as his main deity. His beliefs have not changed and he is pretty firm in them. I support him fully and his belief does not bother me because it came naturally for him. I would be most upset had he come to his beliefs due to outside influences and pressure.

[Χά�ων]

I want to be turned into a diamond:

 

http://www.lifegem.com/

 

Hello, how cool would that be!

This is what I want as well. I saw that they can use hair and I have considered having DS's hair used to make a mother's necklace.

[Χά�ων]

I like Venezuelan wakes/funerals. People stay up all night with the body which must be buried asap because they aren't embalmed. The religious folks sit around the body saying the rosary. The irreligious stand around in the vestibule drinking whiskey and telling funny stories about the deceased. There's something for everyone no matter your personal beliefs. The deceased's beliefs don't really matter (as long as you're some variety of Catholic from the "opus dei" variety all the way to the "I think this is a crock, but it's our crock" variety). I don't think you could have one of these shindigs in Houston because it would break a whole bunch of city ordinances.

The moral here: Do not die in Houston.

[albeto]

Would you happen to have the name of the presenter or a website? I find this topic fascinating. It also explains why some of the local churched feel so strongly about reaching young children. I have raised DS without religious beliefs and with almost no contact with organized religion aside from attending a ethnic festivals at various faith temples/churches a few times a year. Around 7 my ds decided he believed in the Ancient Greek Gods and identified with Poseidon as his main deity. His beliefs have not changed and he is pretty firm in them. I support him fully and his belief does not bother me because it came naturally for him. I would be most upset had he come to his beliefs due to outside influences and pressure.

 

I think it was Dr. Alison Gopnik, from the University of California at Berkeley. It was fascinating because she had video clips of children as young as 14 months showing things like using probability and statistics with regard to theory of mind and empathy skills.

[albeto]

dp

[mamaraby]

Made or born? I'm in the made category. I have an undegraduate degree from Moody in Chicago. My husband also has a degree from Moody, one from Bethel, and was a pastor for a number of years. We were both evangelical conservative types and truly believed ourselves to be saved. In dh's case it was very much a part of who he was growing up (Baptist, Word of Life...and all that entails). We were genuine in our beliefs and passionate in the whole relationship not a religion thing.

 

In the end it was no one thing and there is no anger. We just do not believe any more than we believe in Zeus or Thor. Or at least I can genuinely say that I don't believe in any gods of any kind. I suspect my dh is more of an agnostic, but tbh it just isn't something that comes up in our daily lives.

 

Of my children my oldest is clear in his identity as an atheist. My other two are too young to really know one way or another. I don't have a problem with them embracing faith per se, but I would be disappointed if they embraced the sort of belief that dh and I used to have.

 

We have very religious people on both sides of the family. Some know, but most do not. It's not a topic I wish to discuss with any of my family members. If I knew that they could hear it and move on much the same as they might were I to announce that I painted my living room and without trying to convince us that we have backslidden and need to recommit, then perhaps things would be different. This is doubly true now that we have children.

[marbel]

I hope I didn't miss this in the previous posts.

 

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

It seems like every year, during "that" season, there is some big controversy over symbols. It's a big holiday, celebrated by Christians and nonchristians alike. I get that an atheist (or any nonchristian) would not want to sing, or have their children sing (as in a school choir) religious Christmas songs. Since those songs are meaningful to me, I'd rather people who thought the subject was just a bunch of malarky not sing them, kwim? But I honestly don't get that the Christmas/Holiday tree in the town square, or a nativity scene would be offensive. Annoying, yes. Tiresome, sure. Some of that stuff drives me crazy too.

 

I do know atheists who celebrate Christmas with Santa, etc. (I don't know what they are celebrating, exactly, and the one time I asked I was quickly told how offensive the question was. I didn't get an answer, just a cold shoulder.) So it's a bit confusing to me.

 

Thanks!

[Laura Cook]

I have a question for those who were once Christian but are now atheist. How have your views/opinions of sin changed? I have always had a hard time with the concept of sin. I am asking as a former Christian, now agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. I have no one IRL to discuss this with, without the you know what hitting the fan!

[Guest inoubliable]

I hope I didn't miss this in the previous posts.

 

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

It seems like every year, during "that" season, there is some big controversy over symbols. It's a big holiday, celebrated by Christians and nonchristians alike. I get that an atheist (or any nonchristian) would not want to sing, or have their children sing (as in a school choir) religious Christmas songs. Since those songs are meaningful to me, I'd rather people who thought the subject was just a bunch of malarky not sing them, kwim? But I honestly don't get that the Christmas/Holiday tree in the town square, or a nativity scene would be offensive. Annoying, yes. Tiresome, sure. Some of that stuff drives me crazy too.

 

I do know atheists who celebrate Christmas with Santa, etc. (I don't know what they are celebrating, exactly, and the one time I asked I was quickly told how offensive the question was. I didn't get an answer, just a cold shoulder.) So it's a bit confusing to me.

 

Thanks!

 

Not offensive, so much as inappropriate for that sort of thing to be represented on government land. Religion has no place outside of our courthouses or inside the public schools, IMO. Separation of church and state and all. There is a county quite close to me that elected to let any faith be represented during the holidays. That meant the local atheist group put up a sign alongside the Christian stuff. Guess which representation got vandalized? If the atheist stuff isn't welcome, and it shouldn't be - it's equally inappropriate, then the Christians ought to leave their pageantry on their private property and in their churches. No venom there. It's just the way it should be.

 

Lots of atheists celebrate the season. We do. Of course it's not in a Christian sense. It's not Santa and reindeer, either. But it's a good time to get together with friends and family, ,to look back on the year and celebrate, and look forward to the new year. It's the season that we celebrate and all that it means in a humanistic way.

[4kidlets4me]

I hope I didn't miss this in the previous posts.

 

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

It seems like every year, during "that" season, there is some big controversy over symbols. It's a big holiday, celebrated by Christians and nonchristians alike. I get that an atheist (or any nonchristian) would not want to sing, or have their children sing (as in a school choir) religious Christmas songs. Since those songs are meaningful to me, I'd rather people who thought the subject was just a bunch of malarky not sing them, kwim? But I honestly don't get that the Christmas/Holiday tree in the town square, or a nativity scene would be offensive. Annoying, yes. Tiresome, sure. Some of that stuff drives me crazy too.

 

I do know atheists who celebrate Christmas with Santa, etc. (I don't know what they are celebrating, exactly, and the one time I asked I was quickly told how offensive the question was. I didn't get an answer, just a cold shoulder.) So it's a bit confusing to me.

 

Thanks!

 

 

There is nothing offensive about Christmas to me. We celebrate it as a completely secular holiday with Santa, a tree and gifts. I even like a few of the more spiritual Christmas songs. I don't mind if the kids sing a few religious Christmas songs in a school show as long as it's balanced with other more benign songs.

 

I'm not real fond of the whole Jesus is the reason for the season stuff that pops up on Facebook every year though. That just seems so exclusionary.

[Guest inoubliable]

I have a question for those who were once Christian but are now atheist. How have your views/opinions of sin changed? I have always had a hard time with the concept of sin. I am asking as a former Christian, now agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. I have no one IRL to discuss this with, without the you know what hitting the fan!

 

I simply don't believe in sin. I don't believe that I was born with an inborn sin that I need to constantly redeem myself of. I don't believe in a supernatural being handing down laws and I don't believe in a supernatural being judging me on how well I stick to those laws. I treat people as I'd like to be treated, and I obey the laws of my land. You can google "atheist 10 commandments" and find a lot of links. Personally, I try to live by just this one rule - "don't be an asshole".

[LucyStoner]

I hope I didn't miss this in the previous posts.

 

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

It seems like every year, during "that" season, there is some big controversy over symbols. It's a big holiday, celebrated by Christians and nonchristians alike. I get that an atheist (or any nonchristian) would not want to sing, or have their children sing (as in a school choir) religious Christmas songs. Since those songs are meaningful to me, I'd rather people who thought the subject was just a bunch of malarky not sing them, kwim? But I honestly don't get that the Christmas/Holiday tree in the town square, or a nativity scene would be offensive. Annoying, yes. Tiresome, sure. Some of that stuff drives me crazy too.

 

 

Christmas trees and lights have decidedly non-Christian origins.

 

I am not offended by nativity displays but I understand why they don't belong on public property, funded by public funds. I think nativity scenes belong on individual, church or business property. Not in city hall. Not at public schools (unless part of an educational display of all types of religious iconography.) Not on the courthouse steps. It's just a matter of not having a state sponsored religion.

 

I know way fewer atheists who are offended by Christmas than I know Christians who insist there is a "war" on Christmas.

 

[Rosie_0801]

 

How does this work for you? Have you talked about this and I've just missed it? This concept makes me curious.

 

:)

 

It's the pagan thing. Whatever people lacking imagination or education might have to say, one can be an atheist pagan. I have had a couple of people tell me I can't be, but since I am very good at it, I don't believe them. ;)

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I know way fewer atheists who are offended by Christmas than I know Christians who insist there is a "war" on Christmas.

 

Quoted for truth. I don't know any atheist that is offended by Christmas, actually. We certainly aren't starting a "war" on it.

[LucyStoner]

We celebrate Christmas because it is part of our culture. We do a very toned down celebration and emphasize traditions and family over gifts. We spend only a modest amount on presents for the kids and my husband and I adhere to a $10 limit on a gift for each other.

 

I enjoy religious Christmas music, again because it is culturally significant for me. Until I was close to college age, it was widely presumed I was headed for religious life. I am not anti-religion or anti-Christian but I just find meaning outside of belief in a diety. That doesn't undo the very religious childhood I had though so it is natural for me to have an affinity with what I was raised in and believed for so long. I see it all as allegory I guess. Besides, who doesn't like tidings of comfort and joy? I like joy. I also like explaining the meaning of wasseling!

[Rosie_0801]

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

Not to me. It's really annoying when people talk about the "real" meaning of Christmas as though they own the occasion when it is pretty clear to me that Christmas has several meanings. "Real" implies there's some kind of fake Christmas, which seems a silly idea. Where I come from, there are probably more Christians who don't celebrate (thinking of the JW's) than atheists that don't. When my dad was working at a previous job, it was the Buddhists who were most into it.

 

It seems like every year, during "that" season, there is some big controversy over symbols. It's a big holiday, celebrated by Christians and nonchristians alike. I get that an atheist (or any nonchristian) would not want to sing, or have their children sing (as in a school choir) religious Christmas songs. Since those songs are meaningful to me, I'd rather people who thought the subject was just a bunch of malarky not sing them, kwim? But I honestly don't get that the Christmas/Holiday tree in the town square, or a nativity scene would be offensive. Annoying, yes. Tiresome, sure. Some of that stuff drives me crazy too.

 

For the most part, I think the media is happy to encourage pot-stirrers.

 

I do know atheists who celebrate Christmas with Santa, etc. (I don't know what they are celebrating, exactly, and the one time I asked I was quickly told how offensive the question was. I didn't get an answer, just a cold shoulder.) So it's a bit confusing to me.

 

Yeahhhh. It's so difficult to say it's a nice family occasion, a bit of fun for the kids, or something. :glare:

[annandatje]

How would you feel about one of your children becoming a "believer"? I think I know what you would do - that is support them, etc. like I would if one of my children decided to become atheist. But I won't lie, it would be a disappointment to me if one of children left the faith in which I am raising them. Would it be a disappointment to you?

 

I do not have a problem with it. If the child had identified with a harsh, sin-focused punitive proselytizing faith, I would have been mildly disappointed but kept my trap shut. As it was, I facilitated my kid's interest in religion by driving him to temple and to related events. Said child grew away from that particular faith as he grew up. The faith had a strong emphasis on participating in social and political justice fights so I'm not sure how much of it was truly religious for child and how much was a bonding experience over shared interests. I'm going for the latter because child no longer attends religious services of any kind.

[Rosie_0801]

I have a question for those who were once Christian but are now atheist. How have your views/opinions of sin changed? I have always had a hard time with the concept of sin. I am asking as a former Christian, now agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. I have no one IRL to discuss this with, without the you know what hitting the fan!

 

Yes, quite a lot. It makes more sense to me to see degrees of health and unhealthiness than evil or sin. Nearly everything I was taught was sin seems either unhealthy or bad mannered to me now.

[albeto]

I have a question for those who were once Christian but are now atheist. How have your views/opinions of sin changed? I have always had a hard time with the concept of sin. I am asking as a former Christian, now agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. I have no one IRL to discuss this with, without the you know what hitting the fan!

 

It was the concept of sin that led me out of religious belief (Catholicism). In the first place, how does one define "sin"? It's different for everyone. For some, it's "missing the mark," for others it's "offending God," but how do we know what "the mark" is? We can't even know what/who God is, much less know what he wants. I know people believe, very earnestly and sincerely, they know what he wants, but in reality we can't know. There is no objective resource, save the bible, that describes this character. Further, there is no objective resource by which to interpret the bible itself to know what is correct (even to disagree about which texts are appropriate to be included in the bible).

 

Not to mention, once we have an explanation for behaviors, can't we understand them as solutions to problems (even if they are socially inappropriate solutions) rather than "sins"? If we don't blame a paraplegic for not standing with everyone when it's time to sing the Star Spangled Banner in the beginning of a ballgame, do we blame the autistic child for having a temper tantrum in the grocery store? In both cases, the socially appropriate behavior is simply not in their ability. What about the child who is learning, but still struggles with controlling inappropriate impulses. Is that a "sin" if the impulse to grab a toy is physically stronger than the executive functioning that encourages them to wait? What about the mother who eats when stressed? She "knows better," but habits are often the conditioning of years of cause and effect behavior and are relatively automatic. Can she change that habit? Perhaps, but if she can't, is it the cause of "sin" or the cause of conditioning?

[annandatje]

My dh is an atheist, but I am not. For other atheists on here, do you believe in anything happening after you die? Just blackness and nothingness, or do you believe in any sort of reincarnation or Jungian collective consciousness-type deal?

 

I am firmly convinced that there is no consciousness that is separate from physical body although I concede that there certainly are happenings that are unexplainable currently with our limited knowledge of physics. I have seen no objective evidence of reincarnation or soul-recycling. I do not find that depressing. The world makes more sense to me without a deity belief. Not believing in gods or goddesses does not detract from the awe, mystery and beauty of the universe or from humanity's capacity for both terrible evil and incredible kindness.

[albeto]

 

It's the pagan thing. Whatever people lacking imagination or education might have to say, one can be an atheist pagan. I have had a couple of people tell me I can't be, but since I am very good at it, I don't believe them. ;)

 

Does this pagan belief include deities, or general spiritualism? I'm just curious because it doesn't make sense to me how someone can be theist (believe in god/s) and atheist (lack a belief in god/s). It would make sense to me if a person lacks a belief in god/s, but maintains other supernatural beliefs, though.

[Hypatia.]

I consider myself to be born an atheist, and my family was not religious so I didn't have anyone who tried to change who I was as a child. I can see something similar in my 8 year old DS1.

 

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

Nope. Like others have said, just not on public lands with public funds. At your church, your home, etc., ? Doesn't bother me at all. We have a tree decorated every year. I have referred to myself as a secular pagan before, as I typically celebrate all the quarters and cross quarters.

 

Christmas trees and lights have decidedly non-Christian origins.

 

I am not offended by nativity displays but I understand why they don't belong on public property, funded by public funds. I think nativity scenes belong on individual, church or business property. Not in city hall. Not at public schools (unless part of an educational display of all types of religious iconography.) Not on the courthouse steps. It's just a matter of not having a state sponsored religion.

 

I know way fewer atheists who are offended by Christmas than I know Christians who insist there is a "war" on Christmas.

 

^ What she said. ;)

[albeto]

My dh is an atheist, but I am not. For other atheists on here, do you believe in anything happening after you die? Just blackness and nothingness, or do you believe in any sort of reincarnation or Jungian collective consciousness-type deal?

 

We know that the brain affects personality, sense of self, memory, behavior, etc. We know that damage to the brain affects these things. We know that depriving the brain of oxygen rich blood results in damage and ultimately death to the cells. We know that when decomposition of cells happens, there comes a time when repair isn't possible (even if we don't know this timeline, we know that's how cell death works). How a person can maintain personality, sense of self, memory, desires and hopes and fears and emotions after the death and decomposition of the organ is unknown. It's not likely that these memories remain intact, but perhaps one day scientific research will figure out how to explore that. For my part, I expect death to "feel" every bit like my life before birth: "I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." (Mark Twain)

[annandatje]

Why are so many atheists so militant about it? Why can't you just inwardly roll your eyes at what religious folks believe but keep your opinions about it to yourself?

 

My grandfather was most likely an atheist (at least he never mentioned any sort of spiritual beliefs and refused to answer any questions about the subject by saying that it was private) but he also never once denigrated others' beliefs. What has changed between that generation of atheists and today's atheists?

 

Living in the Bible Belt, the question "where do you go church" is akin to "hello, how are in you" in other less religious locales.

 

I truly do not care what another person's religious beliefs are as long as they do not attempt to proselytize me and as long as their faith does no harm to others. Maybe your grandfather insisted his beliefs were private because he did not wish to be target of proselytizers. Being a nonbeliever surrounded by believers can be lonely and sometimes intimidating or just downright annoying if they are the aggressive proselytizing type.

 

I do not believe that religions or any other philosophies or schools of thought should be automatically respected and be above scrutiny.

[Rosie_0801]

Does this pagan belief include deities, or general spiritualism? I'm just curious because it doesn't make sense to me how someone can be theist (believe in god/s) and atheist (lack a belief in god/s). It would make sense to me if a person lacks a belief in god/s, but maintains other supernatural beliefs, though.

 

It doesn't make sense to me how someone could be both a theist and an atheist either. I'm a pagan who doesn't believe in any deities. I read a blog post once about an atheist pagan being claimed by a goddess. She liked being an atheist so she found that really annoying. Happily this has not happened to me.

 

Don't want to derail the thread further by staying off topic, but if someone wants to resurrect the Ask a Pagan thread, they can go ahead.

[annandatje]

This may be too individual to answer, but what about prayer/other religious rituals? I don't mean "prayer for the lost soul" type of prayer, but I'm hurting or in need type of thing. Do you find it offensive for someone to pray/perform a spiritual based ritual upon your behalf? I've heard everything from don't pray for me because I don't believe, to yes, if it makes you feel better okay.

 

Is karma considered a spiritual belief?

 

Does atheist simply mean no belief in an all-encompassing creating deity? Or can you believe in a kind of "cosmic consciousness" that is organic, but nothing more than part of our natural world? Would that fall into a pagan category. Sorry, I have scattered thoughts and I'm out of coffee.

 

I welcomes any positive thoughts or energy, prayer included, especially when I am in a hurting place.

 

I do not know if karma is considered a spiritual belief. I do not believe in any system of future rewards and punishments. However, I do believe that if one has a developed conscious, he will suffer internally for his wrongdoings. Does that make sense?

 

Atheist means nothing more or nothing less than a viewpoint that deities probably do not exist. It does not speak to beliefs in other supernatural beings or happenings.

[annandatje]

... My only question is whether there is a reason that people often use agnostic and atheist interchangeably? Is it meant to demean one or the other? Are there more similarities and overlaps between them that make it reasonable? I've always heard that agnostics believe there is a higher power but that religion is man-made whereas atheists don't believe in any higher power. Is that correct or just a misunderstanding? And I'm sorry for the really stupid question, LOL, I realize it is a doozy.

 

I am answering this without reading other responses. My take on it is that agnostics feel that the existence of deities is unknowable whereas atheists advocate that one can draw a tentative evidence-based conclusion that deities most likely do not exist.

 

My guess is that some agnostics believe in fuzzy nebulous higher powers while others do not. Personally the most common self-proclaimed "agnostics" I have encountered are those who are questioning and re-evaluating their long-held religiuos beliefs, but my sample is biased because of the cultural dominance of religion in my area.

[annandatje]

I am a "natural" lifelong atheist, i.e., some people are born unable to give themselves over to magical thinking. I am not offended by Christmas lights; we have a long standing tradition of annual Christmas light viewing pilgrimages. Although I do less and less each year, in past years I tried my best to put up elaborate light displays that would elicit twinkles in the eyes of children. I think it is a waste of energy to nitpick about which holiday belongs to whom.

 

Also I agree with whatever poster stated that she has experienced more Christians carrying on about war on Christmas than nonbelievers.

 

Like other posters, I agree that decidedly religious symbols should not be on public land or paid for from public coffer since our government is not supposes to favor one religion over another.

[LucyStoner]

After we die I believe we are just tulip food. I think people live on in their legacy to those who loved them. My mother is with me, not because her spirit is watching but because I knew her and loved her and can talk to her because of my memories of her. I know what she would say about things and can hear her saying them. That's no less powerful to me than believing that she is living on in some afterlife.

[Laura Corin]

 

"Is an atheist born or made?"

 

 

Hobbes said: 'Made, but there's no guarantee how to make them.'

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

How do you as an atheist explain or account for various theist beliefs throughout history? Do you think religious beliefs were formed to explain natural things?

 

To explain natural phenomena, and also to give pattern to a random world. We are pattern-seeking creatures (we needed to understand patterns to hunt and gather effectively) and so we instinctively impose patterns on random events, just like seeing pictures in the accidental clumping of stars.

 

Do you foresee a future where all religious beliefs are replaced by science?

 

No, I think some people will always want or need to believe in something else.

 

 

L

[Laura Corin]

I hope I didn't miss this in the previous posts.

 

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

It seems like every year, during "that" season, there is some big controversy over symbols. It's a big holiday, celebrated by Christians and nonchristians alike. I get that an atheist (or any nonchristian) would not want to sing, or have their children sing (as in a school choir) religious Christmas songs. Since those songs are meaningful to me, I'd rather people who thought the subject was just a bunch of malarky not sing them, kwim? But I honestly don't get that the Christmas/Holiday tree in the town square, or a nativity scene would be offensive. Annoying, yes. Tiresome, sure. Some of that stuff drives me crazy too.

 

I do know atheists who celebrate Christmas with Santa, etc. (I don't know what they are celebrating, exactly, and the one time I asked I was quickly told how offensive the question was. I didn't get an answer, just a cold shoulder.) So it's a bit confusing to me.

 

Thanks!

 

I think that you probably won't get any kind of majority answer on this one. I'm a very relaxed atheist. I grew up in a country with an official Christian religion, I attend the boys' carol service, I sing masses in a concert hall with my non-church-based choir..... I'm unconcerned. I don't feel as if any of the Christmas celebration is particularly aimed at converting me - it's just sweet traditional stuff.

 

And Christmas is a brilliant story - the boys and I read those sections from the New Testament every year, as well as TS Eliot's Journey of the Magi. And how could I give up singing Bach? If you want to get a flavour of the weird cultural acceptance involved in UK Christianity, then I recommend

scene from Love Actually (other parts of the film contain rudenesses, so might not be appropriate for all).

is the actual nativity play (poor quality video, but you get the idea).

 

I'm trying to pin down why this is different from having someone say that they will pray for me. I think that everything in the above paragraph is background, whereas the praying is foreground. Or something.

 

L

[Mom in High Heels]

I guess I'd be considered and atheist Pagan (BTW, why is atheist not capitalized?). I don't believe in a deity, but I believe there is spirituality in the Earth itself. Not a "mother nature" kind of thing, just the magic of being (not real magic or magik). It's a wonderful thing, even when things are bleak. The fact that we are here is pretty amazing.

 

James Bond is more atheist than Pagan. He doesn't believe in anything. How did we come to our conclusions? I think I was born this way. My parents are deeply Baptist and used to attend church twice on Sun and Wed nights. They dragged me along, and I played the part, but never really believed it. I went to a Catholic high school and was married in a Catholic church, but still, not a believer. We did have Indy and Han Solo christened in case they choose the religious path, which is fine with us, as long as they're not militant about it. ;) I'm pretty sure Indy is a born atheist. He said around age 6 or so that it just didn't make any sense and he "didn't buy into it" (his exact words). As we study other cultures in history, he makes comments about how they all seem to have similar stories in their religions and that they can't all be true. We'll see how Han Solo feels when he's older.

 

My parents went through a period where they no longer went to church, but eventually started going again. My dad is really religious as is my step-mom, but they aren't pushy about it. No one in our family knows we're atheist, because it never comes up. Of course that could be because we don't live anywhere near them. If we did, it might be an issue. A few people know our "beliefs" and most are okay with it. If someone feels the need to pray for me, I tell them they are welcome to, but they should know they are do it for their own piece of mind and not mine.

 

As far as Christmas, I love it! I love it all. I love the sights, sounds, smells, songs, etc. I don't believe in the whole "Reason for the Season" business, but if people want that, I don't care. Christmas is just fun. We decorate, make gingerbread houses, string popcorn and cranberries, bake cookies, etc.

[Laura Corin]

Back to the 'born or made' question. Personally, I think the answer is: both.

 

Some people are born without that spiritual zing. I get a 'transcendent' feeling sometimes when I sing with my choir. To some, that might be interpreted as a contact with a god. To me, it's a moment of understanding of the brilliance of the music, perhaps a scintilla of connection with the genius of the composer. Combined with the adrenaline of performance and the physical high. I've never had a feeling that there was something beyond what could be known. I look around and see the wonder of existence, but have no feeling that there is anything beyond. None.

 

Of my two children:

 

Calvin is intensely rational. He worked out Father Christmas when he was about four. It just didn't make sense to him and he couldn't see how the normal laws of time and space could be set aside.

 

Hobbes could have been a believer in another family. He wanted there to be something more - he held onto 'magical' things for much longer, had imaginary friends (whereas Calvin had an imaginary country which was a conscious fantasy, not a believed entity). I wouldn't be surprised if he found a faith later, which would be fine.

 

L

[Aspasia]

.

 

My only question is whether there is a reason that people often use agnostic and atheist interchangeably? Is it meant to demean one or the other? Are there more similarities and overlaps between them that make it reasonable? I've always heard that agnostics believe there is a higher power but that religion is man-made whereas atheists don't believe in any higher power. Is that correct or just a misunderstanding? And I'm sorry for the really stupid question, LOL, I realize it is a doozy.

 

I don't understand why people associate agnosticism with atheism. They are about as related as agnosticism and religion. Atheism and religion both make assertions about what is "true". Agnosticism accepts the idea that we can't really know the answers to the questions "answered" by religion and atheism. Some agnostics do believe in a god--those are agnostic deists. So they believe in a god, but they're agnostic about all the rest.

 

 

 

I'm not aware of any animosity, either.

 

Truly most agnostics that I know are actively attempting to find a path. Usually on their own and it's very personal. Most agnostics that I know have decided that organized religion is not right for them, yet they want something that seems "spiritual". Most agnostics that I know either end up atheist or identify as Pagan or decide that they're happy with the philosophy of Buddhism. They aren't in the least alarmed that atheists aren't still looking or unsure.

 

And most atheists that I know think of religion and/or believe in a higher power as a non-issue. They're largely unconcerned with what other people believe so long as those beliefs aren't hurting others.

 

I think this might be true of many, perhaps most, agnostics, that they're searching for a path. But I think for many people, agnosticism is more than a temporary limbo or a part of their journey toward belief of one kind or another. It's their destination. I am agnostic and I'm totally fine with the not knowing and not believing. Interestingly, I am also an active Mormon. I blog about what that means (link in my sig), and a lot of people assume that I'm trying to get back to a place of belief, but I'm actually not. I'm mostly okay with my current belief system. I say "mostly", just because it's complicated trying to make my agnosticism and my Mormonism work together. It would definitely be easier in many ways to just choose one and leave the other, but I guess I'm just a complicated person. :)

 

Great thread, by the way!

[marbel]

First, thanks for all the kind responses.

 

 

And Christmas is a brilliant story - the boys and I read those sections from the New Testament every year, as well as TS Eliot's Journey of the Magi. And how could I give up singing Bach? If you want to get a flavour of the weird cultural acceptance involved in UK Christianity, then I recommend

scene from Love Actually (other parts of the film contain rudenesses, so might not be appropriate for all).

is the actual nativity play (poor quality video, but you get the idea).

 

I'm trying to pin down why this is different from having someone say that they will pray for me. I think that everything in the above paragraph is background, whereas the praying is foreground. Or something.

 

L

 

Now that (bolded) is an - unexpected, I guess - response. Maybe it is because of the way the media portrays atheists' attitudes about Christmas, or maybe my (admittedly limited) exposure to atheists has been pretty negative when it comes to such subjects, but my impression was that any nonbeliever would think the story is stupid and even harmful, not brilliant. A cause for mocking, nothing more.

 

I guess the few atheists I have become well-acquainted with have no respect for other beliefs, which is different than I'm seeing in this thread. So this has been very helpful. Of course no group is a monolith (my church is not like Westboro Baptist) but as always it's easy to see an unfamiliar group in that way.

[Onceuponatime]

Fascinating thread. I love the funeral arrangements. The willow coffins are gorgeous. I've told my kids I want to be cremated and scattered in the major river near by, with flowers thrown in too, and John Denver singing "Where the River Meets the Sea." I shudder at the thought of our typical church memorial service.

 

I'm currently a 3 on the theistic scale someone posted, I used to be a 1. I've never met anyone IRL who vocally identified as an atheist. Yes, I've lived most of my life in the south. I've only met former atheists. These are usually very vocal and often hostile to opposing beliefs. I used to have a correspondence going with one who is very evangelistic about his view of science and religion. (Old earth creationist)

At one point I disagreed with him about part of his creationist stance and said maybe he was not being intellectually honest. I never heard from him again.

 

This man grew up in an atheist household and says when he reached his teen years, he realized that being an atheist meant he didn't have to obey any religious rules or any rules that had been based on religious principles in his view. So, he could do anything and everything he wanted and proceeded to live that way, in spite of the fact his atheist parents had been decent moral people. He saw them as weak and ineffectual because they could not tell him why he should be "good". Then he met a Christian girl and fell in love. He says he studied the Bible and became convinced about Christianity and has lived as a fervently evangelistic Christian ever since.

 

I say this to show where some of the anti-atheistic thinking comes from. This man preaches that atheists are amoral by definition, because that is what he was when he was an atheist. Many Christians use his story and words to illustrate the "dangers" of atheism. In my experience, irrational fear of atheists and atheism is bred this way in the culture of some Christian groups.

 

I don't really have a question. I just want to say that I think civil discussions like this go a long way to help dispell concerns that rational people may hold. There isn't much that can be done about the irrational people except modelling tolerance, especially in conversation. The more people openly display their acceptance and reasons that people can be moral without a God, then it becomes less comfortable for other people to openly display animosity without seeming to be in the wrong themselves.

 

Now, I have to rethink my stance on blessing people when they sneeze. It just feels rude not to.