Ask an atheist

[Mekanamom]

I haven't read *all* the replies yet... So I don't know if this distinction has been brought up.

 

Although I currently identify as agnostic (don't know *and* I'm comfortable with not knowing... I'm not searching for a religious fit, or spiritual answers, or anything), I participate on another discussion board elsewhere on the Internet that in part consists of a large group of vocal atheists. :)

 

I have seen some replies here that seem to indicate that atheism = a belief that there is no god. I used to think that was the case as well! (Very recently, in fact!). Many of the athiests on the other discussion board I'm part of would have a problem with that definition, however. Atheism, as defined by them and the actual meaning of the word, simply means "without theism". In other words, atheism isn't a positive belief that no god exists, it is simply the lack of belief in any god/s. It is not a belief. It is a lack of belief.

 

Defined that way, I may be closer to athiest than agnostic, even though I do not hold a positive belief that "no god exists", kwim?

 

Some athiests can, and do, also hold a belief that no god exists, but that belief is beyond the initial atheism. (I am married to one of those, lol.)

[Laura Corin]

 

 

I wouldn't say that singing Christmas songs is a regular pasttime for anyone since Christmas only rolls around once a year.

 

 

I think that the reference was to my choir-singing activity. I do indeed spend 2 1/2 hours a week, thirty weeks a year singing (often) religious songs.

 

Laura

[Alte Veste Academy]

Well limitations in language I guess. I'm not sure the term atheism describes me either. And sure at various times in my life of course I thought about these things a lot. Hard not to.

 

LOL! Yes, the limitations of language, because I just changed "believe" to "think" so as not to provoke the ire of any of those angry atheists we hear so much about who might happen to be reading along. (<----This is a joke, people. :tongue_smilie: ;) :D :lol: and all that...)

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

Atheism, as defined by them and the actual meaning of the word, simply means "without theism". In other words, atheism isn't a positive belief that no god exists, it is simply the lack of belief in any god/s. It is not a belief. It is a lack of belief.

 

 

 

 

This is correct, hence the a in front of theism. A = without or not. Atheism is without theism, or not a theist.

[Night Elf]

Are Christmas images truly offensive to most/all atheists? By that I mean both "secular" or cultural Christmas symbols like the Christmas trees and also the religious ones.

 

 

They don't offend me. Like pp said, I see it as a cultural thing. As for offensive, I feel that it's some Christians who get their knickers in a twist at the idea that someone is celebrating their holiday without the "real" reason being foremost in the celebration. It's as if they believe that non-believers are stealing the holiday. I find that so strange. Maybe that belongs in an 'Ask a Christian' thread. Lots of varied opinions no matter what belief system or world view. I see that as a human characteristic, I suppose.

[Alte Veste Academy]

This is correct, hence the a in front of theism. A = without or not. Atheism is without theism, or not a theist.

 

I do not deny that this is correct from a vocabulary standpoint, but I can't find this definition anywhere in an actual dictionary (although something like it was in the Urban Dictionary :lol:).

[LucyStoner]

Re: atheists singing religious music. Being an atheist does not mean a rejection of beauty. Most all of this culture's traditional music is Christian. The songs are beautiful. I see the lyrics as allegorical rather than literal. My first date with my husband? Handel's Messiah on New Year's Eve 1999. I am not going to dislike a gorgeous piece of music just because I don't believe in a religious book as literal fact. We pull out the sheet music for that piece and sing it (him well, me badly) just because we love it. Many of the musicians who wrote these iconic, classic pieces, were not religious or not Christian. Should I scorn the musical genius for living in a time where nearly all music committed to paper was religious music? I am not willing to do that.

 

My mother was a very religious woman. We held her funeral at the Catholic Church and I picked her favorite hymns to sing. Singing at my mother's funeral was no less meaningful to me for being an atheist.

[unfrumpable.]

I think that the reference was to my choir-singing activity. I do indeed spend 2 1/2 hours a week, thirty weeks a year singing (often) religious songs.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Ahhh... I was thinking it was just the Christmas season. Thank you for clarifying. :)

[Mekanamom]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

 

 

I think it boils down to simple empathy, which does allow us to get along with each other and form social bonds and social groups. We are a social species. We rely on each other to survive. Not sure if having a conscience and ability to love is necessarily tied to "the need for a higher power", though.

[TracyP]

Thank you all for your answers re conscience, etc.

 

I get that looking for a higher power could easily be a way to explain what was seen as unexplainable at other times.

 

I know all those facts about animals showing love/empathy/sadness, but it seems to be a far more developed attribute of humans. When thought of as a continuation of the love we feel for our children which is vital to survival it makes sense.

 

Conscience is the big one that still doesn't make sense, but that is okay. :) I really appreciate the responses.

[LucyStoner]

 

 

I do not deny that this is correct from a vocabulary standpoint, but I can't find this definition anywhere in an actual dictionary (although something like it was in the Urban Dictionary :lol:).

 

 

The Greek root breaks down as a- + theos. Without a god, godless. Without diety (the Greeks having many deities!)

[Jen in NY]

Actually, with respect to empathy, etc., this has been researched, and there are some decent explanations for it. I don't have a reference handy, nor can I accurately reproduce the full argument. The explanation runs to the way a pack animal survives. In our early history, it was crucial to remain with the group, as humans were not well-adapted to survive on their own. Hence, if I was well-liked, or knew how to get along with the group (empathy, conscience, etc.) then I was more likely to not be kicked out.

 

 

There's a book about this line of thought. I found it really interesting:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Cathedral-Evolution-Religion-Society/dp/0226901351

[HRAAB]

I think I'm a 5 on Dawkins' scale. It's not that I could not believe in something greater than what I see; it's that I do reject all the representations or understandings of God that I know of in the different belief systems. I reject all the deities of which I'm aware, but what about all that I'm not aware of, all that I don't know. That's why I consider myself agnostic. These discussions always make me consider that I might really be an atheist, but I want to leave myself an out in case something big happens that I can't ignore.

 

I always capitalize God because it's one of those habits I just haven't been able to break. Also, I just think of it as being respectful to other people, but I would do the same for all belief systems - capitalize whatever they call their deity.

[Mom in High Heels]

I sing songs like Superman (by Five for Fighting), My Humps (The Black Eyed Peas), Jessie's Girl (Rick Springfield) and I Kissed a Girl (Katy Perry), but they have no real meaning to me. Believe me, I'm not Superman, my 'humps' do not make anyone drunk (except James Bond on occasion), I don't in fact want Jessie's girl and I have no real desire to kiss a girl. They're just lyrics. Religious Christmas songs are the same IMO. My all time favorite Christmas song is We Three Kings. Just because it's a Christmas song doesn't mean I can't like or sing it.

[Lady Florida.]

The Greek root breaks down as a- + theos. Without a god, godless. Without diety (the Greeks having many deities!)

 

 

Off topic - I learned prefixes, suffixes, and root words in Catholic and public school in the 1960's (switched to public in 4th grade). I'm shocked at how many schools don't teach this anymore. Adding that to my list of reasons why I'm glad we homeschool.

[TeacherZee]

I think I'm a 5 on Dawkins' scale. It's not that I could not believe in something greater than what I see; it's that I do reject all the representations or understandings of God that I know of in the different belief systems. I reject all the deities of which I'm aware, but what about all that I'm not aware of, all that I don't know. That's why I consider myself agnostic. These discussions always make me consider that I might really be an atheist, but I want to leave myself an out in case something big happens that I can't ignore.

 

:iagree: This describes me very well

[LucyStoner]

See, I can't quite be agnostic because I am too opinionated to be non-committal about anything.

[Guest inoubliable]

Re: atheists singing religious music. Being an atheist does not mean a rejection of beauty. Most all of this culture's traditional music is Christian. The songs are beautiful. I see the lyrics as allegorical rather than literal. My first date with my husband? Handel's Messiah on New Year's Eve 1999. I am not going to dislike a gorgeous piece of music just because I don't believe in a religious book as literal fact. We pull out the sheet music for that piece and sing it (him well, me badly) just because we love it. Many of the musicians who wrote these iconic, classic pieces, were not religious or not Christian. Should I scorn the musical genius for living in a time where nearly all music committed to paper was religious music? I am not willing to do that.

 

My mother was a very religious woman. We held her funeral at the Catholic Church and I picked her favorite hymns to sing. Singing at my mother's funeral was no less meaningful to me for being an atheist.

 

 

Agree.

 

Sappy story time. My grandmother died just before my DH and I started dating. He never got to meet her but was around just at the tail end of the funeral arrangements and was there through my intense period of grief. When he found out that one of the last things she asked of me was that I get married in the Catholic Church, he was all for it. My atheist DH insisted that we honor her in this way and that he be allowed to do this for a woman who meant so much to me. I still get a little teary eyed remembering the conversation. (Shhh. That doesn't leave this forum! I have a reputation to uphold!) The service was not a Mass, as DS was never a Catholic even though I technically was still in the Church (you know, I hadn't been excommunicated). The service was lovely with the "usual" songs and readings. We had our own vows, though. The parish priest discussed with us our reason for the marriage to be celebrated in the church and was extremely understanding. We said our vows in English and then in Gaelic and never once had to mention a god or faith. It was a beautiful ceremony, not just because of what the ceremony *was*, but because it has these elements of honor and love for a woman who meant much to so many people and because the songs and readings were beautiful music and words. It was not less meaningful to either of us because we are atheist.

[Lady Florida.]

I think I'm a 5 on Dawkins' scale.

 

 

I'm a strong 6.

 

Was it linked upthread? I can't remember and don't want to check, so for the curious -

 

Richard Dawkins' belief scale

[Alte Veste Academy]

See, I can't quite be agnostic because I am too opinionated to be non-committal about anything.

 

Oh, see, I am very opinionated too, and I do not consider myself non-committal. I just do not have the necessary information to judge what the truth is one way or the other. If I knew all the relevant facts about the origins and extent of the universe, I feel certain I could pick a side. :tongue_smilie:

[Free]

See, I can't quite be agnostic because I am too opinionated to be non-committal about anything.

 

I called myself an agnostic until I realized that I used that term to mask my "holding on" to a wishful belief in God and afterlife.

[stripe]

All these posts about how individual members love to sing Christmas songs are all well and good, but it is misleading to suggest that that is how atheists are, as if they are all the same or share this view. I find the number of posts going on about this to be a bit odd.

 

My points are is that not all atheists have warm feelings about Christianity or being assumed to be Christian. The idea that dealing with religion is like playing a video game -- we suspend disbelief and just have a good old time -- is not my perception of most atheists. I do not know many atheists who spend large amounts of time attending religious services, for example, so the analogy to playing video games and unicorns breaks down pretty quickly.

 

Atheists have been suing the US government to remove "God" from money and the pledge of allegience, or receive exemptions relating to it, for DECADES. There is an atheist movement that may not represent all atheists, but certainly speaks loudly on behalf of them in a variety of situations. They are not fine with Christmas music everywhere and God language woven into the government. They find this to be a violation of their rights.

http://ffrf.org/

 

Further, I know a variety of atheists. Some associate as Jewish atheists. Others group up in Asian countries. Others left Islam. Many Iranian atheists, whatever their background (Jewish, Muslim, Zoroastrian...), are wary of religiosity. The assumption that everyone left Christianity is not true of atheists I have known, although it may be the background of most of the atheists posting here.

 

And most of all, my question about Laura's experience singing in a choir as a hobby of hers throughout the year was a question about Laura singing in a choir. Not about someone else singing Christmas songs, or anything else. It was only about Laura, and she answered very graciously. It was NOT meant to be a "gotcha!" question at all, and Laura didn't seem to take it as such. I was asking -- because I was genuinely interested! -- about her experience as an atheist finding meaning and joy through singing religious music. I also think her experience as a British woman who has lived in a variety of nations for years gives her a unique perspective.

[5of5]

Conscience is the big one that still doesn't make sense, but that is okay. :) I really appreciate the responses.

 

I don’t think conscience as particularly surprising or hard-to-explain.

 

Just as the body’s pain mechanism guides behaviors to avoid physical damage, the brain’s conscience guides the “right†behavior to function well in the group. Viewed in this light, a conscience is a form of learning; a short-cut method to guide our actions. If I had to reason out the best way to respond to every social situation, it would be very difficult (or I’d need a much faster & calorie-consuming brain!).

 

What I personally find more interesting is why we are self-aware, but I was assuming that you weren’t talking about ‘consciousness’ (sentience).

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm a strong 6.

 

Was it linked upthread? I can't remember and don't want to check, so for the curious -

 

Richard Dawkins' belief scale

 

Thanks for linking that.

 

I am a 4, completely impartial.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I called myself an agnostic until I realized that I used that term to mask my "holding on" to a wishful belief in God and afterlife.

 

And I am so impartial that I can imagine both a God but no afterlife and no God but some sort of warm fuzzy place for my soul to hang out after I pass.

 

Yep, I am a 4 for sure. :lol:

[LucyStoner]

 

 

Oh, see, I am very opinionated too, and I do not consider myself non-committal. I just do not have the necessary information to judge what the truth is one way or the other. If I knew all the relevant facts about the origins and extent of the universe, I feel certain I could pick a side. :tongue_smilie:

 

The Greek root for agnostic is a- +gnostos so without known.

 

I feel strongly that I have enough knowledge to say that certain central concepts of various religions are implausible to the extent it is reasonable to reject them as being truthful. IE some people insist that the world is 6000 years old despite a preponderance of scientific evidence to the contrary. I choose the evidence and knowledge over the belief. I think that science shows us a lot of what religion was created to explain.

[Jen in NY]

All these posts about how individual members love to sing Christmas songs are all well and good, but it is misleading to suggest that that is how atheists are, as if they are all the same or share this view. I find the number of posts going on about this to be a bit odd.

 

And most of all, my question about Laura's experience singing in a choir as a hobby of hers throughout the year was a question about Laura singing in a choir. Not about someone else singing Christmas songs, or anything else. It was only about Laura, and she answered very graciously. It was NOT meant to be a "gotcha!" question at all, and Laura didn't seem to take it as such. I was asking -- because I was genuinely interested! -- about her experience as an atheist finding meaning and joy through singing religious music. I also think her experience as a British woman who has lived in a variety of nations for years gives her a unique perspective.

 

I think people may have been responding to Marbel's post #189.

[albeto]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

 

Higher order thinking skills. Humans evolved to have a "theory of mind" component to thinking. That allows us to imagine what it feels like to put ourselves in another person's situation. That's empathy. Evolutionarily speaking, the individual that has this empathy will protect others, like offspring, thus allowing the genetic trait to carry on through the next generation. The individual that lacks that is less likely to pass that trait along (although it does exist, and there is a known percentage of people with natural sociopathy - people who do not have that typical empathic impulse, through no fault of their own, but in much lesser numbers). Further, humans are more empathic with those within immediate relationships. Kin bonds are strongest, followed by community, followed by cultural similarities. It's this tribal thinking, or "us v. them" thinking that allows us to feel more empathy when one of "our own" is suffering. This impulse inspires us to take care of that suffering which in turn increases the chance that community will survive the next generation. On a personal note, one of the frustrations I have with regard to religion is that by nature it creates a dividing line by virtue of supernatural belief. This encourages one to suppress otherwise natural empathy, and instead identify suffering as a matter of divine justice.

[Lady Florida.]

Atheists have been suing the US government to remove "God" from money and the pledge of allegience, or receive exemptions relating to it, for DECADES. There is an atheist movement that may not represent all atheists, but certainly speaks loudly on behalf of them in a variety of situations. They are not fine with Christmas music everywhere and God language woven into the government. They find this to be a violation of their rights.

http://ffrf.org/

 

 

 

Those of us who responded to your posts about the above have stated that it's about the Establishment Clause in the U.S. Constitution and not about being anti-theist or anti-Christian. You implied it's related to Merry Christmas greetings. We pointed out the difference.

From your earlier post:

 

These are often the people who object to "Merry Christmas" greetings and religious language on coins or saying the pledge at school and have sued in protest.

[Alte Veste Academy]

The Greek root for agnostic is a- +gnostos so without known.

 

I feel strongly that I have enough knowledge to say that certain central concepts of various religions are implausible to the extent it is reasonable to reject them as being truthful. IE some people insist that the world is 6000 years old despite a preponderance of scientific evidence to the contrary. I choose the evidence and knowledge over the belief. I think that science shows us a lot of what religion was created to explain.

 

Yes, I get that. And I am familiar with the God of the Gaps argument. It has always resonated with me. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=HooeZrC76s0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHooeZrC76s0 Where it stops being just plain enough for me has to do with the origins of the universe at the most basic level. (I posted my thoughts in a thread a while back, but that thread was moved to a social group and I can't access it anymore. Too bad, LOL, because it laid out my thoughts and questions perfectly.)

 

I do reject the plausibility of formal religious teachings/texts for the various faiths. I do think they are comforting. I like rituals and can see the beauty of religion/faith. My belief/disbelief in a God has absolutely nothing to do with the trappings of religion and faith. For example, I don't think a young Earth position is scientifically defensible, so I reject the idea. I am not saying that a 6,000 year old Earth and no God are equally possible. For me, dismissing (comparatively speaking) minutiae does not rule out the existence of a higher power altogether. Religion, modern or ancient, and its various texts, practices, etc. are not my yardstick for measuring the probability of a God as truth.

[LucyStoner]

 

Atheists have been suing the US government to remove "God" from money and the pledge of allegience, or receive exemptions relating to it, for DECADES. There is an atheist movement that may not represent all atheists, but certainly speaks loudly on behalf of them in a variety of situations.

 

Enjoyment of outstanding music is not the same thing as an objection to the appearance of a state sponsored religion. Also most atheists are not involved with atheist activism or lawsuits.

 

Christianity is the dominant religion practiced on some level by the overwhelming majority of people living in the country where the majority of the members of this board come from. I don't assume that all atheists come from a Christian background but it is reasonable that likely a majority in the US do.

 

 

[TracyP]

 

I don’t think conscience as particularly surprising or hard-to-explain.

 

Just as the body’s pain mechanism guides behaviors to avoid physical damage, the brain’s conscience guides the “right†behavior to function well in the group. Viewed in this light, a conscience is a form of learning; a short-cut method to guide our actions. If I had to reason out the best way to respond to every social situation, it would be very difficult (or I’d need a much faster & calorie-consuming brain!).

 

What I personally find more interesting is why we are self-aware, but I was assuming that you weren’t talking about ‘consciousness’ (sentience).

Maybe conscience isn't the right word. A male in any other species would never walk away and say, "She loves you, not me." In no other species would they take the long view and make difficult choices now in hopes that the future generations would have a better world. There are people who will literally give others the coat off their back. This behaviour seems counter intuitive to what should be beneficial for survival, but I am understanding a bit better.

 

Higher order thinking skills. Humans evolved to have a "theory of mind" component to thinking. That allows us to imagine what it feels like to put ourselves in another person's situation. That's empathy. Evolutionarily speaking, the individual that has this empathy will protect others, like offspring, thus allowing the genetic trait to carry on through the next generation. The individual that lacks that is less likely to pass that trait along (although it does exist, and there is a known percentage of people with natural sociopathy - people who do not have that typical empathic impulse, through no fault of their own, but in much lesser numbers). Further, humans are more empathic with those within immediate relationships. Kin bonds are strongest, followed by community, followed by cultural similarities. It's this tribal thinking, or "us v. them" thinking that allows us to feel more empathy when one of "our own" is suffering. This impulse inspires us to take care of that suffering which in turn increases the chance that community will survive the next generation. On a personal note, one of the frustrations I have with regard to religion is that by nature it creates a dividing line by virtue of supernatural belief. This encourages one to suppress otherwise natural empathy, and instead identify suffering as a matter of divine justice.

OK, this makes sense. BTW, I also have a dislike for organized religion yet my faith is very important to me. Holding these two in my head makes for odd bedfellows, lol.

[Lady Florida.]

Just to clarify, I do not have warm feelings about Christianity.

 

Neither do I. I do know atheists who think some religious ceremonies are beautiful (especially Catholic services). I don't count myself among them. To be fair, I don't have warm feelings about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or even Paganism. I think religious beliefs had a time in history where they made sense. To me, they no longer make sense and I find it - not sure of the word to describe how I feel - odd, confusing, surprising, all of the above, that people still hold beliefs.

 

Most anti-Christian feelings stem from the fact that many of us come in contact with Christians who try to convert us. Muslims also want to convert others, but the reality is that Christianity is the majority religion in the U.S., so that's who most of us come in contact with. Few other religions have beliefs that they should convert everyone to their way of thinking. So, while I don't have warm feelings for *any* religion, my feelings are much colder towards Christianity.

 

ETA: Once I let go of my beliefs, I wondered why I held on to them for so long. So, I'm not being hypocritical. I asked myself the same question - "How could you believe that?" I can't answer it, just like I can't answer why anyone else does.

[unfrumpable.]

All these posts about how individual members love to sing Christmas songs are all well and good, but it is misleading to suggest that that is how atheists are, as if they are all the same or share this view. I find the number of posts going on about this to be a bit odd.

 

My points are is that not all atheists have warm feelings about Christianity or being assumed to be Christian. The idea that dealing with religion is like playing a video game -- we suspend disbelief and just have a good old time -- is not my perception of most atheists. I do not know many atheists who spend large amounts of time attending religious services, for example, so the analogy to playing video games and unicorns breaks down pretty quickly.

 

Atheists have been suing the US government to remove "God" from money and the pledge of allegience, or receive exemptions relating to it, for DECADES. There is an atheist movement that may not represent all atheists, but certainly speaks loudly on behalf of them in a variety of situations. They are not fine with Christmas music everywhere and God language woven into the government. They find this to be a violation of their rights.

http://ffrf.org/

 

Further, I know a variety of atheists. Some associate as Jewish atheists. Others group up in Asian countries. Others left Islam. Many Iranian atheists, whatever their background (Jewish, Muslim, Zoroastrian...), are wary of religiosity. The assumption that everyone left Christianity is not true of atheists I have known, although it may be the background of most of the atheists posting here.

 

And most of all, my question about Laura's experience singing in a choir as a hobby of hers throughout the year was a question about Laura singing in a choir. Not about someone else singing Christmas songs, or anything else. It was only about Laura, and she answered very graciously. It was NOT meant to be a "gotcha!" question at all, and Laura didn't seem to take it as such. I was asking -- because I was genuinely interested! -- about her experience as an atheist finding meaning and joy through singing religious music. I also think her experience as a British woman who has lived in a variety of nations for years gives her a unique perspective.

 

 

I personally don't have any warm feelings about Christianity or being assumed to be Christian. I consider myself agnostic and I certainly don't speak for all agnostics and atheists.

 

I would assume that atheists and agnostics come from many different backgrounds, just as I would assume that the atheists on this board don't speak for or represent all the atheists/agnostics around the world.

 

I would love to see the word God removed from money and the pledge. It makes no sense to me that it is there. However, I am not joining any groups that propagate removing it. It just is not that important to me.

 

I don't know any atheists/agnostics that attend religious ceremonies. To be fair, the Christians I know don't attend religious ceremonies either. IMO and experience, religious ceremonies aren't needed to have and/or believe in a relationship with a higher power.

 

I don't think anyone thought your question was a "gotcha" question. People are just responding with their own personal likes and dislikes and experiences.

 

I guess I really don't see the reason or point of your post? Are you attempting to prove a point or ask a question?

[LucyStoner]

 

 

Yes, I get that. And I am familiar with the God of the Gaps argument. It has always resonated with me. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=HooeZrC76s0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHooeZrC76s0 Where it stops being just plain enough for me has to do with the origins of the universe at the most basic level.

 

See, I think that the origins of the universe are known to some degree through science. Stardust and all that. There is a magic to the world but or me that comes from scientific knowledge, not belief or faith.

 

I have no problem with agnosticism but for me, I find it too noncommittal (one modern definition of agnostic being exactly that) to fit me. I think if there were a higher power beyond the collective awesomeness of humanity and the universe, we'd have more evidence of it, whatever it was. And yes, I have examined the case, scientifically and otherwise for a god. I wanted at the time to be convinced by it but the more I read, the less and less I could bring myself to maintain my belief. I am only speaking for myself as there is, by definition (like someone here said), no orthodoxy in nonbelief and atheism.

[Guest inoubliable]

Maybe conscience isn't the right word. A male in any other species would never walk away and say, "She loves you, not me." In no other species would they take the long view and make difficult choices now in hopes that the future generations would have a better world. There are people who will literally give others the coat off their back. This behaviour seems counter intuitive to what should be beneficial for survival, but I am understanding a bit better.

 

 

 

Hmm. Well there are animals who will fight for the chance of a choice mate and the loser walks away. Not so different from two men doing their utmost to impress the hot girl at the bar. There are people who will literally give the coat off their back for others. And if you google "altruism in animals", you'll find oodles of examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals

 

I'm not sure how altruism is being seen as a human-only attribute.

[Alte Veste Academy]

See, I think that the origins of the universe are known to some degree through science. Stardust and all that. There is a magic to the world but or me that comes from scientific knowledge, not belief or faith.

 

I have no problem with agnosticism but for me, I find it too noncommittal (one modern definition of agnostic being exactly that) to fit me. I think if there were a higher power beyond the collective awesomeness of humanity and the universe, we'd have more evidence of it, whatever it was. And yes, I have examined the case, scientifically and otherwise for a god. I wanted at the time to be convinced by it but the more I read, the less and less I could bring myself to maintain my belief. I am only speaking for myself as there is, by definition (like someone here said), no orthodoxy in nonbelief and atheism.

 

I get that. For me, it is the "to some degree" that serves as the roadblock. Maybe it is easier for me to take this position because I never had any belief to maintain or justify?

[Lady Florida.]

I don't think anyone thought your question was a "gotcha" question. People are just responding with their own personal likes and dislikes and experiences.

 

 

 

I didn't think it was a gotcha question either. I thought we were all just having a conversation and sharing our opinions.

 

I'm off to take ds to my niece's, where he will spend the week with her, her dh, and their 5 yo twins. He does this every summer and loves it. As her kids get older, what his week is like changes every year. After that, dh and I are meeting for dinner and and a shopping trip to BJ's. Woo-hoo! Big Friday night out! :lol: I hope the thread is still here when I'm able to come back. I've enjoyed it.

 

Cathiasplace is right. We atheists come from many different backgrounds and don't all think alike. If we did, we could just let Laura handle this thread (since she started the topic) without us. :D

[LucyStoner]

 

 

I kinda see it that way, but I think people have the right to be noncommittal if they want to be.

 

I was looking at the Dawkins scale. I said I was a 6.5. I can't commit to a 7 because I sometimes doubt my own existence. I cannot think of too many things I'm 100% sure of.

 

Take even what is known about the universe. That's still a leap of faith for me in a way because I don't entirely understand it. So the parts I don't understand I do sometimes accept because I believe other people understand it. That's still some faith on my part. But it feels as much of a leap as the belief I have that my car is parked in my carport right now. Because that is where I left it. I'm not looking at it though. So I can't be 100% certain. But I'm pretty certain.

 

I think you and I are the same 6.5!

 

I don't have an issue with other people being more ambivalent or noncommittal- like I said it just doesn't fit me. It fits my husband. He doesn't know and frankly doesn't care.

 

 

[Lady Florida.]

 

I was looking at the Dawkins scale. I said I was a 6.5. I can't commit to a 7

 

Not even Dawkins himself will commit to being a 7. You're in good company. :)

[Lady Florida.]

Hmm. Well there are animals who will fight for the chance of a choice mate and the loser walks away. Not so different from two men doing their utmost to impress the hot girl at the bar. There are people who will literally give the coat off their back for others. And if you google "altruism in animals", you'll find oodles of examples.

http://en.wikipedia....uism_in_animals

 

I'm not sure how altruism is being seen as a human-only attribute.

 

The more animal behaviorists study, the more they are learning that attributes and emotions we previously thought were exclusively human, are not. Most of the research I've seen involves mammals, but I think there have been studies done on birds too, and the findings have been surprising.

 

I don't have an issue with other people being more ambivalent or noncommittal- like I said it just doesn't fit me. It fits my husband. He doesn't know and frankly doesn't care.

 

My dh is one of those agnostic-because-I'm-not-quite-ready-to-let-go agnostics. Ds and I are solidly atheist.

 

Okay, I really am leaving now. Later.

[TracyP]

 

Hmm. Well there are animals who will fight for the chance of a choice mate and the loser walks away. Not so different from two men doing their utmost to impress the hot girl at the bar. There are people who will literally give the coat off their back for others. And if you google "altruism in animals", you'll find oodles of examples.

http://en.wikipedia....uism_in_animals

 

I'm not sure how altruism is being seen as a human-only attribute.

I think my question is being lost and that is probably my own fault. I am not questioning whether or not animals have these attributes, because I understand that for us to have evolved these characteristics, animals would also carry them. I am wondering why? What is the evolutionary purpose? I have received some responses that have been helpful.

[Shahrazad]

It makes sense to remove God from the pledge and money, even if you aren't an Atheist because they have no place in government regulated things in a secular country where there is an emphasis on separation of religion and state. I also wish they'd remove religious holiday activities from public schools. My sister goes to public school and it has been a fight to get her out of the little Christmas, Halloween, Easter...etc activities without her losing credit for participation. I really think it'd be much better if they were seasonal activities and seasonal parties so that all faiths could participate.

 

Ok, what on earth is a Jewish Atheist? I'm not trying to be offensive but isn't that an oxymoron? Or do they just mean Jewish as an ethnic group/heritage?

[Shahrazad]

Neither do I. I do know atheists who think some religious ceremonies are beautiful (especially Catholic services). I don't count myself among them. To be fair, I don't have warm feelings about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or even Paganism. I think religious beliefs had a time in history where they made sense. To me, they no longer make sense and I find it - not sure of the word to describe how I feel - odd, confusing, surprising, all of the above, that people still hold beliefs.

 

Most anti-Christian feelings stem from the fact that many of us come in contact with Christians who try to convert us. Muslims also want to convert others, but the reality is that Christianity is the majority religion in the U.S., so that's who most of us come in contact with. Few other religions have beliefs that they should convert everyone to their way of thinking. So, while I don't have warm feelings for *any* religion, my feelings are much colder towards Christianity.

 

ETA: Once I let go of my beliefs, I wondered why I held on to them for so long. So, I'm not being hypocritical. I asked myself the same question - "How could you believe that?" I can't answer it, just like I can't answer why anyone else does.

 

No, no, no, I think you're giving us too much credit...I only want to convert those I like ;)

 

I'm just kidding, honestly but I couldn't resist.

[LucyStoner]

 

 

I get that. For me, it is the "to some degree" that serves as the roadblock. Maybe it is easier for me to take this position because I never had any belief to maintain or justify?

 

You might be onto something ;) I, oth, was headed for life in a religious order and my disbelief came from religious texts and works.

[HRAAB]

My feelings about Christianity are very mixed. For instance, I am one who can find Mass a beautiful experience - especially a Latin Mass - but I also find many things a beautiful experience: art, music, the night sky, our gorgeous mountains, hugging my children, and s*x. There are Christian writers/theologians I like reading and can cause that beautiful experience. Sometimes just watching humanity makes my heart feel like it might burst. So I attribute none of those feelings to God.

 

On the other hand, there are times I don't feel very warm at all towards Christianity. My family has had their share of very unfavorable encounters with Christians, and while I realize those were individual people, it was their religious beliefs that gave them the authority they needed to act as they did and validated that behavior. I know many Christians will say, "but that isn't Christian behavior, they weren't being Christian", but I don't buy that. They were acting out of their beliefs. Christianity has impacted my life greatly because I live in a very Christian area, so it is personal. I might not agree with other religions, but it's not personal like it is with Christianity,

 

I also accept responsibility that at one time in my life I gave authority over my conscience to a church. I gave them power over me. At the same time, they told me they held authority over my salvation. They held the keys to salvation. It's emotionally manipulative. I do try very hard to treat people respectfully, they way I want to be treated. I don't want to be angry, it's so emotionally draining, but I have my moments.

[LucyStoner]

Ok, what on earth is a Jewish Atheist? I'm not trying to be offensive but isn't that an oxymoron? Or do they just mean Jewish as an ethnic group/heritage?

 

Yes, exactly. Lack of belief doesn't undo the cultural heritage of one's family.

[Cricket]

On a personal note, one of the frustrations I have with regard to religion is that by nature it creates a dividing line by virtue of supernatural belief. This encourages one to suppress otherwise natural empathy, and instead identify suffering as a matter of divine justice.

 

Can you make explain this line of thinking a little bit more? I remember you saying something similar in another thread and can't make sense of it. Faith-based groups were instrumental in starting hospitals and working to help the poor in this country. There are many faith-based groups that travel to other countries in order to help. Part of why they go is because they believe their religion teaches them to do it. Christianity even teaches its followers to love their enemies. Are you maybe thinking along the lines of groups that refuse medical treatment for their kids for religious reasons?

[HRAAB]

You might be onto something ;) I, oth, was headed for life in a religious order and my disbelief came from religious texts and works.

 

Yes. When I was in my early 20s, family members thought I had a vocation to the religious life. I communicated with several different religious orders. It was reading and studying that led to my disbelief. They more I learned, the less I could believe.

[Laura Corin]

I'm a little worried that we have strayed into atheists talking about faiths, rather than about their own atheism. There may be a place for that, but the thread could go downhill really fast. Let's all make sure to keep our claws sheathed and our paws fluffy.

 

Any other questions?

 

Laura