Ask an atheist

[stripe]

I will posit that, in general, people truly are not interested in the religious, or non-religious, beliefs of other people. Only if they are friends to begin with, or have some other IRL tie(s), are people more likely to want to know more and genuinely to try and understand the other person. When people come by the house, or accost me in the street (yes, this occasionally occurs) to market their espoused religion, never -- and I mean never -- are those people one speck interested in what I happen to believe (or disbelieve).

Except in the South, where I swear the first question people ask you when you meet them is "where do you go to church?" I'm not making this up. That's why it comes up so often in my life.

I tend to agree with Orthodox6; I think someone asking you where you go to church is really asking if are you in my group or are you an outsider. (I have had the same thing happen with people wanting to know my ethnic background. And yes, people have asked thag immediately on seeing me. It seemed to me that there was a huge need to categorize me, where certain people just couldn't handle talking to me without having that settled in their minds.)

 

I don't think people ask because they really want a detailed description of your faith, which is often confused with trying to convert someone. In my experience, and in the experience of most people I've asked, most people who try to convert strangers do not want to sit down and have an interfaith chat. They want to push their beliefs onto their target. I think this makes these "ask a----" threads interesting, because mostly they are civil and informative, without being pushy.

 

Something I've been curious about, about Laura, is the coupling of atheism with some level of Church of England participation. Is this being culturally Christian, in the same way that a fair number of Jews are culturally Jewish but not connected to the religious aspects? I think I was a bit surprised to hear about your membership in a choir. I would be interested to know your thoughts about this if you don't mind, Laura. Thank you for opening yourself up to questions.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Now that (bolded) is an - unexpected, I guess - response. Maybe it is because of the way the media portrays atheists' attitudes about Christmas, or maybe my (admittedly limited) exposure to atheists has been pretty negative when it comes to such subjects, but my impression was that any nonbeliever would think the story is stupid and even harmful, not brilliant. A cause for mocking, nothing more.

 

 

Religious stories are resonant of the things that matter to people: wonder, regeneration, birth, death, hope, love, fear and yes, faith. That resonance exists even for those who don't follow the underlying beliefs. I am moved by Oedipus as well as Jesus.

 

On a practical level: how would my children understand and appreciate a walk through the National Gallery or a performance of Handel's Messiah if they were divorced from the culture that has produced that art?

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

Something I've been curious about, about Laura, is the coupling of atheism with some level of Church of England participation. Is this being culturally Christian, in the same way that a fair number of Jews are culturally Jewish but not connected to the religious aspects? I think I was a bit surprised to hear about your membership in a choir. I would be interested to know your thoughts about this if you don't mind, Laura. Thank you for opening yourself up to questions.

 

My choir is actually not attached to a church. There's a long tradition of community choirs in the UK, which may sing religious music - because so much great music is religious - but is not itself affiliated. This is a choir I used to belong to: despite the name, it's not religious - as far as I remember, it began in the St Bartholomew's hospital, rather than the adjacent church.

 

The CofE is a very, very broad church. I think that some who attend are 'cultural Christians'. Others are just happy to be part of a very accepting faith.

 

L

[stripe]

My choir is actually not attached to a church. There's a long tradition of community choirs in the UK, which may sing religious music - because so much great music is religious - but is not itself affiliated.

Ah, I never realized. Thanks for replying. :)

 

Do you sing religious music? How does that go?

[lailasmum]

I'm totally late to the thread. I'm an atheist. I never use the term believe really. I know that when we die we rot and nothing more in my opinion. I don't think we have a soul or anything that goes on after our body dies. I'd like to be a bit useful after death, maybe donate my body for research or something. Or at least have a tree planted on top of me. The finality of it doesn't bother me It's a relief if anything and puts life into perspective, so much stuff that people get their knickers in a twist about is really quite pointless.

 

My family and most people I know have humanist funerals or memorials with a private burial/cremation. There's a grave yard with a chapel in it in our town that can be used for what ever type of service you need. I've probably only been to one or two religious funerals in my life.

 

I think atheists can be both born and made. I have always been an atheist and raised in an atheist family and tbh the UK is a pretty secular place. I didn't know anyone until very recently that would really call themself a Christian, lots of people are culturally Christian but not really believers.

 

I used to spend a fair bit of time with Pagan friends as they celebrated the different points of the year which I think is a really normal human thing to do. Theres rarely a day goes by when I don't coment on the season or the length of the day. They did go much more into actual goddess worship and became sure new agey too I wasn't comfortable with that, nor did I really understand it so I don't really see them any more.

 

The world is amazing and wonderful, I don't need any sort of religion to help me see that.

 

I have to say that christmas is my least favourite time of year. I just hugely dislike the commercial side of it and the pressure for people to spend money on stuff they don't need.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

I think atheists can be both born and made. I have always been an atheist and raised in an atheist family and tbh the UK is a pretty secular place. I didn't know anyone until very recently that would really call themself a Christian, lots of people are culturally Christian but not really believers.

 

 

I've found Scotland to be more church-going than England, at least this part of Scotland compared to the part of England where I grew up. Almost all of the boys' friends go to church. It's no big deal - I just avoid suggesting play dates for Sunday mornings.

 

Laura

[lailasmum]

I've found Scotland to be more church-going than England, at least this part of Scotland compared to the part of England where I grew up. Almost all of the boys' friends go to church. It's no big deal - I just avoid suggesting play dates for Sunday mornings.

 

Laura

 

I think London was a bit more religious too than where I am now but It guess that was due to it being much more ethnically mixed but even so It didn't have any impact on our lives. People here seem pretty private about it even if they are religious.

[poppy]

First, thanks for all the kind responses.

 

 

 

Now that (bolded) is an - unexpected, I guess - response. Maybe it is because of the way the media portrays atheists' attitudes about Christmas, or maybe my (admittedly limited) exposure to atheists has been pretty negative when it comes to such subjects, but my impression was that any nonbeliever would think the story is stupid and even harmful, not brilliant. A cause for mocking, nothing more.

 

I guess the few atheists I have become well-acquainted with have no respect for other beliefs, which is different than I'm seeing in this thread. So this has been very helpful. Of course no group is a monolith (my church is not like Westboro Baptist) but as always it's easy to see an unfamiliar group in that way.

I took a college course on The Bible -- as history, as literature, as one of the most profoundly influential documents in our culture. If anyone in class was Christian, they didn't say so. There was no debate about whether is was "bad" in any way. It was a brilliant and utterly illuminating class, one of my favorites ever. I think it is a fairly standard course in liberal arts colleges. Even those who don't specifically study the Bible should have some cultural literacy exposure to the Old and New Testaments, just as they should read the Illiad, Shakespeare, and other great works.

[chiguirre]

I have a question for those who were once Christian but are now atheist. How have your views/opinions of sin changed? I have always had a hard time with the concept of sin. I am asking as a former Christian, now agnostic leaning strongly towards atheism. I have no one IRL to discuss this with, without the you know what hitting the fan!

 

I don't believe in original sin at all. That always seemed very unfair and made me personally question if the Christian version of god was a beneficent being when I was a logic stage whippersnapper.

 

My view of being good is to treat others as I want to be treated. I find this is very useful as a parenting tool too. Asking how X feels about what you said or did usually gets the point across very well. I hope my kids have an inner recording of me asking that as adults.

[marbel]

I took a college course on The Bible -- as history, as literature, as one of the most profoundly influential documents in our culture. If anyone in class was Christian, they didn't say so. There was no debate about whether is was "bad" in any way. It was a brilliant and utterly illuminating class, one of my favorites ever. I think it is a fairly standard course in liberal arts colleges. Even those who don't specifically study the Bible should have some cultural literacy exposure to the Old and New Testaments, just as they should read the Illiad, Shakespeare, and other great works.

 

Well, certainly I agree with all that. I can't imagine people studying Western Civ without having an understanding of the Bible and Christian religion, but I also can't imagine studying world history without also studying Islam, Buddhism, etc. And I understand an appreciation for the art, whether or not the subject matter is something one believes in.

 

My sampling of people and their attitudes is small.

 

I do wonder about Christmas music though. I just wonder how someone can sing a song such as "Oh Holy Night" when they don't believe in it. I don't find it offensive, I don't think, just curious. At my mother's funeral, an acquaintance (mother of a friend of mine), vocal atheist, who often commented negatively about religion, sat right behind me and sang the hymns quite loudly and forcefully. I had other things to think about then, but it was a bit troubling to me. Of course I never asked her about it! I am quite sure she did not mean to be mocking; she had grown up in the church and maybe she liked the song, though how could she when she proclaimed to hate the church? I couldn't sing a song that proclaimed God as evil.

[Laura Corin]

Ah, I never realized. Thanks for replying. :)

 

Do you sing religious music? How does that go?

 

I thought I'd replied, but can't find it, so excuse the possible duplicate:

 

Yes, I do sing religious music. How does it go? I grew up singing hymns but really not paying attention to the words. Now, when I sing religious words as part of a choir performance, I 'act' the emotion of them, just as if I were in a play. I 'feel' the grief at the crucifixion, just as I would 'feel' the grief if I were Gertrude narrating the death of Ophelia. I hope that's not offensive.

 

Laura

[Jen in NY]

I do wonder about Christmas music though. I just wonder how someone can sing a song such as "Oh Holy Night" when they don't believe in it. I don't find it offensive, I don't think, just curious. At my mother's funeral, an acquaintance (mother of a friend of mine), vocal atheist, who often commented negatively about religion, sat right behind me and sang the hymns quite loudly and forcefully. I had other things to think about then, but it was a bit troubling to me. Of course I never asked her about it! I am quite sure she did not mean to be mocking; she had grown up in the church and maybe she liked the song, though how could she when she proclaimed to hate the church? I couldn't sing a song that proclaimed God as evil.

 

I think, as a musician, singer, reader, and general all-around-consumer-of-culture there have been many times in my life when I have been called upon to sing lyrics (or read a book, or look at a painting, or watch a movie) that don't match my beliefs or experience exactly, but that doesn't diminish the experience of participating in the musical or artistic event.

 

For example, I've never been a cockney laze about father, but I enjoy a rousing rendition of I'm Gettin' Married in the Mornin' every time! : )

 

I guess I experience Christmas music as familiar, peaceful, and telling a beautiful story... which is more than I get out a lot of other music .... so I enjoy it on that level.

 

And singing in a crowd is also wonderful and unifying and powerful. Find a Messiah Sing near you at Christmastime, if you've never gone to one. It's amazing!

[lailasmum]

I don't find it offensive, I don't think, just curious. At my mother's funeral, an acquaintance (mother of a friend of mine), vocal atheist, who often commented negatively about religion, sat right behind me and sang the hymns quite loudly and forcefully. I had other things to think about then, but it was a bit troubling to me. Of course I never asked her about it! I am quite sure she did not mean to be mocking; she had grown up in the church and maybe she liked the song, though how could she when she proclaimed to hate the church? I couldn't sing a song that proclaimed God as evil.

 

Maybe she was just trying to do what your mother would have wanted and didn't want to rock the boat. I personally never sing hymns not that I know any but my husband who was a christian up until around 25 years of age and is now an atheist would sing the hymns loudly now because he was a chorister as a child and likes the music.

[Laura Corin]

 

I do wonder about Christmas music though. I just wonder how someone can sing a song such as "Oh Holy Night" when they don't believe in it. I don't find it offensive, I don't think, just curious. At my mother's funeral, an acquaintance (mother of a friend of mine), vocal atheist, who often commented negatively about religion, sat right behind me and sang the hymns quite loudly and forcefully. I had other things to think about then, but it was a bit troubling to me. Of course I never asked her about it! I am quite sure she did not mean to be mocking; she had grown up in the church and maybe she liked the song, though how could she when she proclaimed to hate the church? I couldn't sing a song that proclaimed God as evil.

 

I guess I just like singing. And I'm not an angry atheist. I grew up in a society where Christianity was at least as cultural as it was religious: all schools in the UK are meant to have an act of worship every day. It's often pretty non-specific these days, but when I was at school I sang two or three hymns every day.

 

You couldn't sing a song that proclaimed God as evil, Marbel, because you care about God so it would be an insult to your faith. I could, however, sing a song about the greatness of a god because, to me, it's meaningless - I don't have a faith to insult. My atheism is not a belief, it's a non-belief.

 

Now, if I thought I was offending someone by singing hymns in their church, I would stand respectfully instead.

 

L

[Free]

Atheism and religion both make assertions about what is "true". Agnosticism accepts the idea that we can't really know the answers to the questions "answered" by religion and atheism.

 

I don't think of it this way. An atheist is not someone who "knows" there is no god. But in the absence of evidence for god, an atheist simply feels no reason to give the idea of a God any more credence or value than the idea of the Loch Ness Monster, or the Bigfoot or any other supernatural being. The way I see it is, if I am not agnostic when it comes to unicorns and pixies, why should I be agnostic about a belief in God?

[mamaraby]

As for funerals - I'd prefer that my family didn't have one, but I admit I won't be able to do much about it at that point. I absolutely do not want it to be in a church or funeral home. And, if anyone said anything on that ocassion, I hope that it would be something like this - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4675953 . I hope instead they'll go hiking on the trails at a state park, have a picnic, and watch the sunset because those are all things that I loved. It would be a far more fitting way to say goodbye and remember me than songs and pagentry and appeals to the supernatural. :0)

 

And Christmas - We celebrate the winter solstice because axial tilt is the reason for the season. I have no problem with anyone celebrating Christmas in their own home or on private property. I do have anissue with it being done on government land or with government money. Our government is not supposed to favor one religion over another. We don't place religious symbols for other faiths on public land during their significant holidays and for some religions there would be an incredible uproar if we did. Quite simply put, the fairest way to handle this matter is for the government to refrain from these sorts of displays.

 

As for saying Merry Christmas by retailers - I vastly prefer Happy Holidays as its more inclusive. We don't all celebrate Christmas any more than we all celebrate Easter and so I find the phrase puzzling. The underlying assumption by the sayer of such phrases is that I'm a Christian because everyone is a Christian. I usually smile in return. I do not celebrate those holidays and while they are bagging my groceries at the store is really not the place for that sort of discussion.

[stripe]

I think, as a musician, singer, reader, and general all-around-consumer-of-culture there have been many times in my life when I have been called upon to sing lyrics (or read a book, or look at a painting, or watch a movie) that don't match my beliefs or experience exactly, but that doesn't diminish the experience of participating in the musical or artistic event.

I think it's just that it seems an unusual way to spend one's time.

 

Like maybe spending hours every week being a spokesperson for the beef industry when one is a vegetarian. For some vegetarians, this would be offensive because they are morally opposed to consumption of animal flesh. I suppose you and Laura and others are expressing that they do not feel this desire to dissociate themselves from all religious activities, that they enjoy the connections on other levels, musical or communal or whatever. I do not think that it's clear that all atheists have this vaguely warm and fuzzy feeling towards their cultural religious ties. But it's interesting to read the responses.

[5of5]

I don't think of it this way. An atheist is not someone who "knows" there is no god. But in the absence of evidence for god, an atheist simply feels no reason to give the idea of a God any more credence or value than the idea of the Loch Ness Monster, or the Bigfoot or any other supernatural being. The way I see it is, if I am not agnostic when it comes to unicorns and pixies, why should I be agnostic about a belief in God?

 

Exactly right.

[Laura Corin]

I think it's just that it seems an unusual way to spend one's time.

 

Like maybe spending hours every week being a spokesperson for the beef industry when one is a vegetarian. For some vegetarians, this would be offensive because they are morally opposed to consumption of animal flesh. I suppose you and Laura and others are expressing that they do not feel this desire to dissociate themselves from all religious activities, that they enjoy the connections on other levels, musical or communal or whatever. I do not think that it's clear that all atheists have this vaguely warm and fuzzy feeling towards their cultural religious ties. But it's interesting to read the responses.

 

You're right: there's no one true way to be an atheist.

 

About the singing: to be honest with you, if there was an extraordinary repertoire of secular choral music, I'd probably prefer to be singing that. But I'm absolutely pragmatic about it: for me it's about Bach, Mozart, Verdi, Beethoven.... not about the words.

 

So I don't see it as spending a lot of time being a spokesperson for religion (as my choir doesn't sing in church and the audience will mostly be coming for the music); rather, I'm spending a lot of time on an activity that I enjoy and that gives joy to others. Because I don't find religion offensive - as a vegetarian might find meat-eating - the religious words don't get in my way.

 

ETA: we recently sang a piece by the modern Christian composer Paul Mealor. He gave a pre-concert talk about the piece and about how he wove Christian symbolism into the form of the music as well as the words. I found the talk very interesting and appreciated his skill and commitment. And I was moved by the music. FWIW, as he was there, he knew that the piece (it was the first performance of an orchestral rearrangement) was being performed by a secular choir (which includes a fair number of believers) in a concert hall. If he's not going to worry, I'm certainly not.

 

Laura

[stripe]

You aren't really comparing the same thing when you say that is like a vegetarian being a spokesperson for the beef industry. I don't think singing a song makes one a spokesperson. If I sang a song about a god, it wouldn't be much different than me singing a song about sparkly unicorns. Would you question why I'd sing a song about sparkly unicorns because unicorns are not real?

Ok. I picked being a spokesperson as an analogy to spending hours each week on a pasttime. Sorry that rubbed you the wrong way. But say, a vegetarian singing songs about meat, or a pacifist who is in a military-style marching band complete with war songs. The point to me was that this is a regular, recurring activity, not just the occasional solitary activity.

 

Eta I was also trying to distinguish between vegetarians who oppose meat-eating as a concept, and those who, say, just don't like it personally, or can't afford meat (and are aspirational omnivores) or whatever other options on the dietary spectrum.

 

I think there's a difference. Atheists who are doing religious-like activities are what I am inquiring about. I certainly never meant to offend Laura with my question about how she balances the two, and I appreciate her taking the time to provide such a thoughtful (as always) reply. I am sorry that you, WendyK, found my questions offensive and won't post to this thread further.

Edited May 31, 2013 by stripe

[Jen in NY]

You're right: there's no one true way to be an atheist.

 

About the singing: to be honest with you, if there was an extraordinary repertoire of secular choral music, I'd probably prefer to be singing that. But I'm absolutely pragmatic about it: for me it's about Bach, Mozart, Verdi, Beethoven.... not about the words.

 

So I don't see it as spending a lot of time being a spokesperson for religion (as my choir doesn't sing in church and the audience will mostly be coming for the music); rather, I'm spending a lot of time on an activity that I enjoy and that gives joy to others. Because I don't find religion offensive - as a vegetarian might find meat-eating - the religious words don't get in my way.

 

Laura

 

 

This.

 

And yeah, it's not like I would sing anything just for the sake of singing. I would definitely avoid a 'KKK' choir, or a "Kill the Children" choir... and I pretty much don't watch movies in which people get killed or "real" violence happens ... or read books that are offensive to me. (I am about as mild as they come. Pride and Prejudice, anyone?)

 

*shrug* I guess I self regulate. But I think that's what everyone does, whether they are a person of faith or not. At some point an adult person following the rules of a religion self selects in or out.... you choose to follow the guidelines or not....

 

Have to run out.... so this isn't as clear as I'd like.,... but I really appreciate this discussions and the ones that have come before.

 

Have a wonderful, wonderful day, all.

[Laura Corin]

I certainly never meant to offend Laura with my question about how she balances the two, and I appreciate her taking the time to provide such a thoughtful (as always) reply.

 

Not at all offended. I do understand that my attitudes are quite alien to some people. More questions welcome.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

Atheists are not necessarily against religion (or religious songs) though. They may just not believe it. So it's not being hypocritical.

 

I think it goes back to what I said to Marbel: she couldn't sing songs that attacked her God because that would be an affront to her faith; on the other hand, I can sing songs that glorify a god, because gods don't mean anything to me - I don't have a faith to defend.

 

Laura

[annandatje]

Made or born ? That's such a fascinating question.

 

My youngest expressed his disbelief in a god/gods by the time he was 5 or 6. I have no idea if this is because he was born atheist or because he grew up at a time where I was much more at ease with my own atheism.

 

Two of us in our family who are atheist came to it through a mental process. For ds, supernatural happenings and beings are simply illogical. He is as upset by Santa as he is by 'God'. It's an affront to logic for him. ....

 

Interesting. Religion was all around me but it never "took." Situation was pretty much same for my husband. Like your son, I found Santa every bit as unlikely as deities but pretended to believe as young child to prevent disappointment in certain relatives. With my own children, we played the "Santa game" at Christmas.

[Laura Corin]

Time for some gardening. Back in an hour or two.

 

L

[Lady Florida.]

I guess I'd be considered and atheist Pagan (BTW, why is atheist not capitalized?).

 

Neither word is a proper noun. Actually, it can be Pagan or pagan, depending on meaning. Usually pagan is an umbrella term, with say, Wicca, and Asatru falling under it. Some pagans consider themselves Pagans though. Confusing enough yet? :)

 

I guess the few atheists I have become well-acquainted with have no respect for other beliefs,

 

Actually, I don't think a belief deserves respect. It's not a living thing. Do I respect someone's right to hold a particular belief? Yes. That doesn't mean I have to respect the belief, or that I'm not supposed to ever give my opinion of it. As others have said, most of us atheists don't go around saying what we think of religious beliefs, but sometimes the occasion warrants giving an opinion. During those times, I don't think we should have to give religious beliefs any special treatment.

 

They are just songs. They sound nice. I enjoy music. There is nothing more to it than that.

 

 

This. I sing along to plenty of pop songs that have no personal meaning for me. I think we'd (almost) all agree that religious music is much more beautiful, musically, than pop songs. It's enjoyable music and nothing more.

 

I don't think of it this way. An atheist is not someone who "knows" there is no god. But in the absence of evidence for god, an atheist simply feels no reason to give the idea of a God any more credence or value than the idea of the Loch Ness Monster, or the Bigfoot or any other supernatural being. The way I see it is, if I am not agnostic when it comes to unicorns and pixies, why should I be agnostic about a belief in God?

 

:iagree:

[annandatje]

How do you as an atheist explain or account for various theist beliefs throughout history? Do you think religious beliefs were formed to explain natural things? Do you foresee a future where all religious beliefs are replaced by science?

 

Many humans understandably have a fear of the unknown and unknowable and resort to supernatural myths to explain and placate fears brought about by uncertainty. No, religious beliefs will not go away although they may evolve and/or dwindle as our scientific knowledge advances.

[stripe]

 

 

Not at all offended. I do understand that my attitudes are quite alien to some people. More questions welcome.

 

Laura

 

I know plenty of atheists in real life, as well as members of a fairly wide swath of the world's religions.

 

What I primarily interested in was how you balance your beliefs about the nature of the world with your interest in singing and choir activities, and I wanted to respond to Orthodox6's point, that I agreed with, that most people lack an interest in others' beliefs. Thank you again for your willingness to discuss your personal life with us. I have always found your posts extremely interesting.

[Free]

Atheists who are doing religious-like activities are what I am inquiring about.

 

 

Atheists do participate in cultural activities rooted in religion - celebrating Christmas for example. They just do not assign a religious meaning to it, that is all. Participating in religious music would be similar.

[stripe]

Atheists do participate in cultural activities rooted in religion - celebrating Christmas for example. They just do not assign a religious meaning to it, that is all. Participating in religious music would be similar.

 

I think the issue is that "atheists" cannot be presumed to do the same thing. There are atheists who object to Christmas and very much DO assign a religious meaning to it. These are often the people who object to "Merry Christmas" greetings and religious language on coins or saying the pledge at school and have sued inprotest. There are atheists who grew up religious, but not Christian. So they don't have a particular background in Christianity so would feel more comfortable singing abut dreidls than Rudolf. As an example.

[Free]

There are atheists who object to Christmas and very much DO assign a religious meaning to it. These are often the people who object to "Merry Christmas" greetings and religious language on coins or saying the pledge at school and have sued inprotest.

 

 

Not being American, I cannot comment on this, but I always thought that the opposition was to the state sponsored religious activities. In India secularism has a completely different meaning...here the state feels obliged to sponsor all religions equally. :laugh:

[Lady Florida.]

These are often the people who object to "Merry Christmas" greetings and religious language on coins or saying the pledge at school and have sued inprotest.

 

 

I don't know a single atheist who objects to Merry Christmas greetings. I do however, know plenty of Christians who object to Happy Holidays. Just check facebook in December. You will see plenty of "IT'S MERRY CHRISTMAS NOT HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!" type posts. I do however, think it's rude to people of other faiths to insist that a store clerk give a Christian greeting to everyone.

 

Language on coins and God in the pledge are different from a holiday greeting. Both of those situations involve the government, while the first one doesn't. That makes it a Constitutional issue. (So is Constitutional a proper noun in this case? LOL)

[TracyP]

I think there are a lot more atheists or those who simply say "I'm not religious" than a lot of people realize. Where you hear about people being angry at religious symbols tied to government/public property it is because their point is that atheists (and those similar) are not that small of a group, but they don't have anything else necessarily in common so they don't come together to ask to be fairly represented. So there are some atheists (and anti theists) out there who I believe want to bring some awareness to this fact.

 

I agree with the bolded. How would you (general) ever know? Some would even claim belief in certain company if they were asked. They fold their hands and close their eyes when prayers are said, while they think about the baseball game. They don't really care what others do. They are just go about their business and don't really stress about it one way or another.

[mamaraby]

 

I think the issue is that "atheists" cannot be presumed to do the same thing. There are atheists who object to Christmas and very much DO assign a religious meaning to it. These are often the people who object to "Merry Christmas" greetings and religious language on coins or saying the pledge at school and have sued inprotest. There are atheists who grew up religious, but not Christian. So they don't have a particular background in Christianity so would feel more comfortable singing abut dreidls than Rudolf. As an example.

 

 

I don't get the scare quotes around atheists. I do object to the ubiquitous Merry Christmas/Happy Easter because I think it's a sign of being blinded by one's privilege - the privilege of the majority where one can assume that everyone is a Christian and celebrates the same holidays. Why must the cashier at the grocery store or Target or Walmart say this to patrons? They certainly have the free speech right to say so, but I also have the same right to say why I object or why that makes non-Christians uncomfortable. I'm not trying to be argumentative or stick too fine a point on this, but I don't think one can ignore the function that privilege plays here.

 

As for language on money, in the pledge, and other government sponsored religious activities - this is the orange in the apples above. It's improper for the government to do such things. Often times government entities (school boards, city councils, etc) have been given notice of some sort about why this is in violation of the constitution and asked to comply voluntarily. When they refuse then that's when lawsuits are filed (often at great personal cost to the people involved who face harrassment and death threats). The government cannot show favor to one religion over another and these sorts of things interfere with this responsibility.

 

floridamom - I'm not sure on the capitalization either, though if you say it's proper, I'll agree and henceforth it shall be. ;)

[TracyP]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

[Lady Florida.]

floridamom - I'm not sure on the capitalization either, though if you say it's proper, I'll agree and henceforth it shall be. ;)

 

 

I wasn't saying it's proper, I was asking if it is. After I made a previous post about why atheist or pagan should/should not be capitalized, I was laughing at myself for being unsure about constitutional/Constitutional.:D

[Lady Florida.]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

 

You are looking at it in one way only though. You are observing behaviors and reported feelings, but explaining them in a way that makes sense to you. It doesn't mean that is the reason for it. It could be something as simple as survival. If an organism sees a point to stay alive they take steps to do it.

 

And because people seem to have a need to explain things and associate meaning with it is not proof for the existence of anything at all.

 

 

Yes, it sounds very much like the argument from incredulity.

[5of5]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

 

 

Actually, with respect to empathy, etc., this has been researched, and there are some decent explanations for it. I don't have a reference handy, nor can I accurately reproduce the full argument. The explanation runs to the way a pack animal survives. In our early history, it was crucial to remain with the group, as humans were not well-adapted to survive on their own. Hence, if I was well-liked, or knew how to get along with the group (empathy, conscience, etc.) then I was more likely to not be kicked out.

[mamaraby]

 

 

I wasn't saying it's proper, I was asking if it is. After I made a previous post about why atheist or pagan should/should not be capitalized, I was laughing at myself for being unsure about constitutional/Constitutional.:D

 

 

I meant proper as in proper noun not proper as in correct - which mostly meant I was laughing along with you. :0) and...well...now the moment has passed I suppose.

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

I found this fun scale of the universe:

 

http://scaleofuniverse.com/

 

 

That was fun. And now I know where a Minecraft world fits. :D

[unfrumpable.]

Ok. I picked being a spokesperson as an analogy to spending hours each week on a pasttime. Sorry that rubbed you the wrong way. But say, a vegetarian singing songs about meat, or a pacifist who is in a military-style marching band complete with war songs. The point to me was that this is a regular, recurring activity, not just the occasional solitary activity.

 

Eta I was also trying to distinguish between vegetarians who oppose meat-eating as a concept, and those who, say, just don't like it personally, or can't afford meat (and are aspirational omnivores) or whatever other options on the dietary spectrum.

 

I think there's a difference. Atheists who are doing religious-like activities are what I am inquiring about. I certainly never meant to offend Laura with my question about how she balances the two, and I appreciate her taking the time to provide such a thoughtful (as always) reply. I am sorry that you, WendyK, found my questions offensive and won't post to this thread further.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that singing Christmas songs is a regular pasttime for anyone since Christmas only rolls around once a year. I also wouldn't say that singing Christmas songs is a religious-like activity. It is just more of a cultural thing that most people are brought up with. And there is practically no avoiding Christmas songs during the season! They are everywhere. :)

[mamaraby]

 

 

I don't think too hard about it. How many times do store clerks tell one to have a good day? Do you really think they necessarily care that I have a good day? People often ask, "How are you?" and aren't expecting an explanation of one's current state of well being beyond "fine" or "good". Sometimes people even just say "hello" in response to that question.

 

 

But that's not even remotely the same thing - if it were why is it when folks don't say "Merry Christmas" it's somehow seen as proof of the "war" on Christmas? Yes, there are people who say Merry Christmas/Happy Easter much like one would say "hello" or "have a nice day," but that doesn't excuse the privilege there that enables them to equate the two.

 

I'm not saying that you have to think all that hard about it or care. I'm just explaining for the person who asked why some people take issue with it.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't understand why people associate agnosticism with atheism. They are about as related as agnosticism and religion.

 

.....

 

I think this might be true of many, perhaps most, agnostics, that they're searching for a path. But I think for many people, agnosticism is more than a temporary limbo or a part of their journey toward belief of one kind or another. It's their destination. I am agnostic and I'm totally fine with the not knowing and not believing.

 

This is exactly how I feel about being agnostic. I wish it wouldn't ever be wrapped up or confused with the definition of atheism, because that perpetuates misunderstanding. For me, religious faith and atheism are about acceptance or rejection; agnosticism is a feeling that the truth is unknowable and, therefore, cannot really be accepted or rejected. I have not lost faith; I never had it. I am not searching for a path, in a state of flux, etc. I am just OK with it. Maybe there will be answers when I die and maybe not. Either way, I feel comfortable with how I am living this life.

[LucyStoner]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

 

 

Because we are inherently a community oriented species. Without a sense of love and connection to others, we die. There is evidence of early humans dying with healed/remodeled broken bones. In a hunter gatherer society, you're going to die if you don't have a community or family to take care of you. I also believe that we see more than just glimpses of the ability to love family and friends in other species. Elephants reunited after a long time are practically swept away in visible recognition and love for one another. There are many species which show extreme upset on the loss of a relative or mate.

 

Also, even while I might be able to accept the idea of a higher power, I can not accept the concept of any one culture's or one time period's concept of that higher power being the one and only "true and correct" interpretation.

[unfrumpable.]

 

Yes, just like there are Christians who are enraged when someone says "happy holiday" instead of "merry christmas". As if wishing someone "happy holiday" is equal to wishing them to go to heck. Some people just get upset about stuff.

 

Someone once wished me a happy mother's day. At the time I was not a mother. I didn't tell them. I just said thank you. I don't get upset when someone wishes me well.

 

 

 

Yes, this. Just say thank you and move on. That would be the polite thing to do.

[Guest inoubliable]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection. This always seems (to me) to be one of the most powerful arguments for God.

 

 

*Did* humans evolve a conscience, or ability to love? I cannot think that even our earliest ancestors didn't posses these qualities. There are many, many examples in the animal kingdom of species caring for their young, helping others, comforting the dying, etc. And they're not quite as evolved as we, eh? ;) I think these qualities are qualities that most living things have. I don't see them as *human* characteristics, either. Have you never had a pet snuggle with you when you're sick? Have you never seen the news stories of a devoted dog following the funeral procession of his now-gone human? Have you never seen a mama duck herding her ducklings to safety? Have you never seen a video of dolphins at play, or monkeys grooming each other? I'm not being snarky here. I'm simply pointing out that there in the animal kingdom, there are many examples of love and conscience, including us humans.

 

The need for a higher power/deeper meaning for life? I don't think there is such a need for the majority. Most animals don't anyway. There wouldn't be any atheists, either, if that were a true need. At some points in our history, humans have not understood things like thunder, volcanic eruptions, season changes, and other natural happenings. Explaining it with a story of something supernatural seems... natural. As science has progressed and we've learned more about our natural world, there is no need for a thunder god, or a volcano god, or a god of autumn. KWIM?

[marbel]

As for saying Merry Christmas by retailers - I vastly prefer Happy Holidays as its more inclusive. We don't all celebrate Christmas any more than we all celebrate Easter and so I find the phrase puzzling. The underlying assumption by the sayer of such phrases is that I'm a Christian because everyone is a Christian. I usually smile in return. I do not celebrate those holidays and while they are bagging my groceries at the store is really not the place for that sort of discussion.

 

 

I made a fool of myself by mindlessly saying "Merry Christmas" to a gal who had just done a blood draw on my son. We had all been chatting happily and my son had commented on the ease with which she performed the task - he gets a lot of blood tests and has discovered that there is a wide range of skill etc among phlebotomists. I had noticed her head covering but that didn't stop me! After the words escaped my mouth I looked at her and tried to figure out how to apologize but she just smiled and moved on to her next thing. We were just in a happy mood, thinking about Christmas, and certainly didn't mean to offend; those words just came most naturally to me as that's what I celebrate. I don't assume everyone is Christian. But, I am more careful now.

 

In general I think those things are silly to be offended over, no matter what anyone's beliefs are. Most people are not out to offend. Well, certainly there is poor behavior on both sides of the issue.

[unfrumpable.]

 

I made a fool of myself by mindlessly saying "Merry Christmas" to a gal who had just done a blood draw on my son. We had all been chatting happily and my son had commented on the ease with which she performed the task - he gets a lot of blood tests and has discovered that there is a wide range of skill etc among phlebotomists. I had noticed her head covering but that didn't stop me! After the words escaped my mouth I looked at her and tried to figure out how to apologize but she just smiled and moved on to her next thing. We were just in a happy mood, thinking about Christmas, and certainly didn't mean to offend; those words just came most naturally to me as that's what I celebrate. I don't assume everyone is Christian. But, I am more careful now.

 

In general I think those things are silly to be offended over, no matter what anyone's beliefs are. Most people are not out to offend. Well, certainly there is poor behavior on both sides of the issue.

 

 

 

I agree with you on this one! I just don't get either side of this argument. Well, I do understand where both sides are coming from, but, as you stated, I would have to think that the vast majority of people aren't out to offend. It's the Christmas season, everyone is excited about Christmas for varying reasons, including the fact that it is finally cooler (in most areas anyways!).

 

And, kind of off topic, aren't there Christian women who head cover too?

[Alte Veste Academy]

I avoid telling people I'm an atheist because they load a lot more meaning to it than there is. I don't reject the existence of a god. I simply don't believe there is one. If I take a step to reject something I'm entertaining the possibility. I don't entertain the possibility. This is also not that I am against those who do believe there is a god. I am not an anti theist. Although I do reject the use of religion to coerce, control, and discriminate against people.

 

It is true that I am not in a state of flux. But I don't know that all agnostics are in a state of flux. I think they kinda just think...well maybe or maybe not, I don't know. Not that they are looking for what it is they do believe. I don't say maybe or maybe not. I just say, I have no reason to believe so.

 

Like splitting hairs. I think you are saying you don't want to be associated with non believers because that has a negative connotation. I used to worry about that too. I don't worry about it anymore.

 

I don't want to be associated with atheism because I am not an atheist (as the term is actually defined, so that we do not have to split hairs). I have no problem being thought of as a "non-believer."

 

From Wikipedia: Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

 

I do not reject the belief and I do not take the position that there are no deities.

 

From Merriam-Webster: 2

a : a disbelief in the existence of deity

b : the doctrine that there is no deity

 

Ditto.

 

I simply do not think as an atheist thinks. I mean no more offense by that than I mean by saying I do not believe as a religious/faithful person believes, which is to say none. Agnosticism and atheism simply are not the same thing.

 

ETA: And for the definition of agnostic...

 

From Wikipedia: Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.

 

From Merriam-Webster: 1

: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

 

[Laura Corin]

Why do you think humans evolved to have a conscience, the ability to love, the need for a higher power / deeper meaning to life? While you see glimpses of these things in other species, they seem to be *very* human characteristics. I can't imagine how they would give us an upper hand, i.e. be a factor in natural selection.

 

 

I connect a lot of those with the long human maturation period. If an animal becomes mature and self-sufficient quickly, then there is not a need for instincts that lead to longer-term care. If you have children who are not sexually mature for twelve or more years then love, guilt, cooperation, etc. are powerfully protective and likely to be passed on to the next generation.

 

The need for deeper meaning I see as part of our pattern-seeking nature. If you are a physically-slight hunting creature, then you need to be very attuned to the patterns of your prey: spoor, tracks, etc. Similarly, to gather roots you need to see the patterns that lead you to your food. As a side-effect of this, you 'see' patterns that may not actually be there.

 

I'm by no means an expert in this, however.

 

Laura