My comparison of WWS to LToW

[lewelma]

As some of you might know, I have been reading lots of writing curricula and writing books as a way to prepare for teaching high school writing. And now I have somehow fallen into being an English tutor for a friend's boy who is in 11^th grade! Yes, I know this is nuts. But there it is. So, I have been busy reading and thinking and understanding how different methods lead to the same endpoint.

 

I would like to compare WWS and LToW because they are very different in their approaches, and I hope that my thoughts might give parents a framework to review all the other curriculum that are out there. WWS is not completely written yet, but my ds and I have worked through level 1 and are beta testing level 2; and with the scope and sequence, it is all becoming clear. I have not used LToW, but have read it twice. I'm sure that users can add to my comments from their personal experience.

 

THE BIG PICTURE

 

The end goal is to be able to write like Rachel Carson or MLK. Their work is showcased in Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student – the top book recommended by SWB in the WTM for advanced 12^th graders. I have read Corbett and Horner (Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition which was recommended by 8filltheheart). These essays are long, well researched, and well reasoned using a variety of arguments. The language is beautiful and carefully chosen, and the ideas are organized carefully for the greatest effect. This is our goal.

 

There seem to be 2 main ways of approaching this goal – whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole. LToW uses whole-to-parts and WWS uses parts-to-whole.

 

LToW teaches the student to write a persuasive essay on the first day – it starts with the whole. The first essay is simple in ideas, structure, and elocution – it is really boring to read as is clearly stated in the program. But it is still a full essay – a thesis with 3 arguments. The idea is to give the student the entire picture first and then over the period of years to improve upon it by teaching the student to 1) construct better arguments by thinking about the topic more clearly, 2) arrange ideas better by drawing the reader in with good introductions and conclusions, 3) write with more beauty both by avoiding vague words and by including advanced language constructions. This is an iterative process. The student always writes a full essay but then improve upon it over and over again.

 

WWS teaches the student to write one piece at a time, but to write that piece in an advanced manner. Each month SWB introduces the student to another piece of a good essay and has the student write that one piece in an outstanding way. There is never a boring, annoying, full essay written on purpose like in LToW, but then again the student only writes small pieces. Her goal is to have the student rock solid in writing descriptions, narratives, definitions, comparisons, and cause/effects, and then and only then to write a large persuasive essay using all these pieces. This essay will be saved for high school level writing (I am assuming this will be the focus of her Writing with Style high school program). SWB has stated numerous times that she regularly sees students who can write essays but have nothing to say; they have nothing to say because they have never been taught deep, meaningful thinking and how to translate it into good, solid, effective writing. This is what WWS teaches. Each piece is developed in minute detail – the questions to ask yourself, the examples to read, the subtle differences in thinking required for different topics. But the student using WWS only writes 1 or maybe 2 pieces at a time. The full essay is delayed until the student masters the pieces, which would require 3 or 4 years. These pieces are required for advanced essays like Rachel Carson/ MLK, but are rarely seen in High school because of the "5 paragraph essay," which is simple in invention and arrangement. SWB has a larger goal in mind -- university-level writing.

 

University-level writing has a thesis to prove, but you don't prove it with 3 points. You introduce the topic with a personal narrative, and then define the difficult words, which leads to comparisons and cause/effects. You describe an important sequence, and end with a powerful conclusion, with pointed questions. All the pieces come together to prove your thesis. This is the goal. Just look at a classic essay and this is what the author has done. The author does not have a formula of: tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them 3 points, and tell them what you told them. This formula does not lead to great writing. A student must advance beyond the formula in university. SWB's WWS avoids the formula and focuses on the pieces so that one day the student will be ready to put them together into a great and powerful persuasive essay (I assume this is the goal of WWSkill). LToW uses the formula as a temporary crutch and hopes that one day the student will move past it.

 

Obviously, which type of program is better for a student depends on the student.

 

THE DETAILS

 

There are some smaller things of note.

 

Writing Examples: LToW does not provide examples, but recommends that you find some to show your students. WWS has LOTS of very well chosen examples.

 

Learning style: LToW uses discussion to teach material. WWS is a self-taught program using a textbook.

 

Type of essay taught: LToW teaches persuasive writing; WWS teaches expository and literary analysis.

 

What students write about: LToW lets students pick what they want to write about. WWS gives topics and resources to the student (except for a few research papers).

 

Invention Topics covered: LToW teaches definition, similarities and differences, circumstance, cause and effect, authority witness/expert. WWS teaches descriptions, narratives, definitions, comparisons, and cause/effects. WWS1 mostly focuses on descriptions and narratives which are not really covered in LToW. WWS2&3 and LToW overlap on many invention topics.

 

Research Skills: LToW focuses on ideas that the student comes up with from their mind. WWS has a *strong*, purposeful focus on research, note-taking, documentation, footnotes, and plagiarism.

 

Thinking skills: LToW is excellent in getting kids to really think about a subject by teaching them to ask questions. WWS also uses questions and is equally excellent, but has even more questions, more detail, and more subtle differences. WWS is more advanced in thinking skills.

 

Arrangement: LToW has formulaic essays. WWS has clear guidelines but not formulas.

 

Elocution: LToW has an excellent (and I mean excellent!) elocution section for each essay. With a focus on vague writing and advanced techniques. WWS has a much more simple approach to elocution than LToW.

 

Well, that is about it. I am happy to answer questions if anyone has any. I have reviewed a bunch of curricula before on this thread, and a LOT of other people contributed. So it is worth your time to have a read if you have not already.

 

MY PERSONAL CHOICES

 

IMHO WWS2 is more difficult than LToW. So you could definitely do the sequence WWS1, LToW, WWS2, because WWS1 is mostly focused on descriptions and narratives which are not really included in LToW. But LToW introduces the different invention topics in a simpler manner than WWS2, so you could use it as a slower introduction. The main problem with this is that after doing the elocution in LToW, WWS2 will seem simple, and you will probably want to skip it. I do think that LToW will give you student the big picture, which can at times be lost in the details of WWS. My ds has good elocution skills, so he has found the WWS2 material too simple, and we have skipped most of it. I think he will love LToW elocution.

 

For me, since we will be done with WWS2 this year, we will switch to LToW next year and try to apply our research skills and more advanced questions learned in WWS2, but still use the LToW framework. I personally really dislike the LToW teacher's manual. I mean really, get to the point! But I am sure that I can teach it my way with a bit of effort. Here's to hoping the SWB works her little fanny off to get WWS3 out ASAP!

 

Ruth in NZ

[Tress]

Thank you, Ruth! These reviews are awesome.

 

 

[3peasinapod]

Excellent!

[ladydusk]

Have you looked at LToW 2 as you consider the sequence? Wondering where it would fit.

[freesia]

Thank you, lewelma. That was very helpful. Now I'm stuck,though. My seventh grade ds is using IEW's SICC_B and we are moving on to LTOW next year. But now I want him to do WWS, too! Do you think doing WWS2 after LTOW would work (never having done WWS1) or would the student be missing too much?

[Jane Elliot]

Thank you so much! This review was very timely for me, and I am grateful for your efforts.

[M&M]

I cannot begin to tell you how helpful all of your hard work has been to me. I have picked these programs hoping that they would be what I need to teach my children writing, You have helped me to see the big picture.

[Create Your Ritual]

Thanks Lewelma! Wonderful post and I appreciate the time to took to write all of your thoughts down. Having seen a few examples of early LToW work, I would hesitate to back up to that and simplify the writing style after having worked through WWS1&2. I can tell that there is a lot of value in the Invention & Elocutions sections of LToW just from the samples, so I see your point about merging the two curriculums on your own to work on some things more deeply than even WWS does.

 

Are you starting with LToW1 or 2? Are you doing the complete LToW program as you work through it, or will you work primarily in the elocution section and add that to what you have already learned with WWS to create WWS style compositions with the practiced elocution of LToW?

 

I guess they don't even write the same type of compositions/essays so I could see doing the whole program, but I just hate the idea of backing up and simplifying in any way after the depth that we have gone into with WWS. I would do LToW if WWS3 doesn't come out in time, but I don't want to feel like we are starting all over. dd11 has a pretty clear idea of how writing works with WWS, and so anything I bring in needs to add to that. I love your thoughts! I am excited for the 11th grader who gets the opportunity to work with you. ;-)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks so much, Ruth! This is incredibly helpful and timely for me, too, as I decide what we do for 6th grade after finishing WWS1. I will definitely be giving LTOW a hard look.

 

What was particularly helpful was your characterization of the programs - parts-to-whole vs. whole-to-parts. I love that WWS teaches incrementally, but my dd is definitely a big-picture girl. The way you have described LToW makes me think that it would help her to see the big picture, and get a mental idea of what we're going for. She also thrives with discussion-based teaching. We are going through Essay Voyage together right now, and while it doesn't teach her to write the way that WWS does, it is inspiring and engaging for her to have discussions *about* writing, about the purpose of writing, the job of the essay, and it helps her see what the excercises in WWS are for. Which makes them less tedious . . . Sounds like LToW could help us do more of that kind of discussion and analysis.

 

It's kind of the same with math - we use MM, for the incremental, step-by-step, understand how to do the problem sort of teaching, but I think dd would cry if that's all she did for math. We use things like LOF, living math books, and problem solving books to keep her eye on the big picture - what math is for, and why it is beautiful and fun. So I'm seeing a parallel in how I should be organizing writing instruction.

 

Thank you!!! :cheers2:

[shanvan]

I personally really dislike the LToW teacher's manual. I mean really, get to the point! But I am sure that I can teach it my way with a bit of effort. Here's to hoping the SWB works her little fanny off to get WWS3 out ASAP!

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

:iagree: wholeheartedly. And, I am using LToW as a jumping off point for teaching. I definitely teach it my own way and I did not have Ds write a rudimentary essay. He did the invention and arrangements up to outlining, but I didn't even have him write an essay until we reached lesson 4 (I think, not sure I am remembering correctly).

 

Thanks for taking the time to compare all of these. I think I'm going to use WWS for Dd, but Ds, not so sure b/c his writing is taking off and he's finishing up 9th. I'm thinking I could use some of WWS with him here and there where I think it might help weaknesses, but I don't have it in hand to know if that would even be appropriate. Are there samples anywhere for WWS2?

[shanvan]

Have you looked at LToW 2 as you consider the sequence? Wondering where it would fit.

 

 

Me too!

[Chrysalis Academy]

So for those of you using LToW: what do you use? Teacher's Manual, Student Manual? Is the teacher's manual necessary, given the Lesson Guides on the website? How about the dvds/cds? I can't see myself watching a 20-30 min dvd before teaching each writing lesson . . . . How are people implementing this, and what components do you use?

[Cosmos]

I personally really dislike the LToW teacher's manual. I mean really, get to the point! But I am sure that I can teach it my way with a bit of effort.

 

Double agree to this one. Holy moly. I tried reading the manual three times and gave up each time. Then I finally sat and forced myself to get through half of it. The only way I would consider using it is to read the whole thing myself and then create my own personal teacher's manual to teach from. There is NO WAY I could use that thing on a daily basis. (Note: I have an older edition and perhaps it has been updated. But there are binders and loose papers and a computer disc. Very frustrating)

 

Thanks for the comparison, Ruth! Very good analysis of the two programs and from what I've seen of each, it's spot on.

 

ETA: Took out shanvan's post as I realized she may not have been agreeing with what I thought she was. :blush:

[Dana]

Thanks!

[shanvan]

Double agree to this one. Holy moly. I tried reading the manual three times and gave up each time. Then I finally sat and forced myself to get through half of it. The only way I would consider using it is to read the whole thing myself and then create my own personal teacher's manual to teach from. There is NO WAY I could use that thing on a daily basis. (Note: I have an older edition and perhaps it has been updated. But there are binders and loose papers and a computer disc. Very frustrating)

 

Thanks for the comparison, Ruth! Very good analysis of the two programs and from what I've seen of each, it's spot on.

 

ETA: Took out shanvan's post as I realized she may not have been agreeing with what I thought she was. :blush:

 

Oh! I was definitely agreeing about the TM! I have the updated Tm and it isn't any better.

 

Rose, I have the TM, Student book and the Cd's. I listened to the Cds while on the treadmill to get a feel for the process. Basically, I look at the TM and Student book for each lesson and then go over each canon (invention, arrangement, elocution) and give assignments based on my lesson. Sometimes I combine invention and arrangement, sometimes I might even split up part of the teaching in one of the cannons. It really depends on what I want to focus on with Ds. I don't really follow the plans that are laid out in the TE, though I do refer to them from time to time. You really need the TM and Student workbook. I wish they were combined and there are times when I wish some of what is in the TM was in the Student & vice versa. It is ridiculous that the TM will sometimes say that significant portions of the student exercise have been omitted. It annoys me that I sometimes have to stop and ask Ds for his book, just so I can see what is missing. And, we are not always sitting near one another when I need to see his book. Anyway, that's how i handle it, but I am somewhat comfortable teaching writing and I know what LT is aiming to teach, so I feel comfortable adapting.

 

I think the discussions that LT encourages through questioning is key to getting Dc to think. That helps them see what they can write about. I really think that's where LToW stands out. It gives you and Dc tools to use that encourage meaningful discussion and help ferret out the issues and develop a thesis and coherent argument out of any type of material. I can see the strengths of WWS too, but it doesn't sound like it will encourage deeper thinking or help Dc to generate ideas like LT will. But, I really need to take a closer look at WWS before I can draw any real conclusions or compare as Ruth has.

[lewelma]

Have you looked at LToW 2 as you consider the sequence? Wondering where it would fit.

 

 

I have looked at it, but it was a full year ago. As I remember half of it is a continuation of level 1, but the other half gets into essays that are not used very often in modern life like Judicial and Eulogies (or something like that). If SWB's program was fully written (including the high school level), I would be happy to skip LToW because she will get to persuasive essays. But as we are waiting for her to write WWS3, I will probably take LToW levels 1 and half of level 2 and collapse them into 1 year.

 

Thank you, lewelma. That was very helpful. Now I'm stuck,though. My seventh grade ds is using IEW's SICC_B and we are moving on to LTOW next year. But now I want him to do WWS, too! Do you think doing WWS2 after LTOW would work (never having done WWS1) or would the student be missing too much?

 

I would not skip the narrative and descriptive aspects of WWS1 unless your student is incredibly talented in these. They are key building blocks for writing advanced essays. You often see essays begin with a personal narrative to draw the reader in, or you see a descriptive paragraph placed strategically in an essay to build an image or rapport with the reader. However, an advanced student could easily collapse the material into 1 week=1 or 2 days, and skip the early material on summaries, skip the note-taking if already mastered, and skip the literary analysis because in level 1 it is very basic. So perhaps get through WWS1 in 2 months.

 

Having seen a few examples of early LToW work, I would hesitate to back up to that and simplify the writing style after having worked through WWS1&2. I can tell that there is a lot of value in the Invention & Elocutions sections of LToW just from the samples, so I see your point about merging the two curriculums on your own to work on some things more deeply than even WWS does.

 

Are you starting with LToW1 or 2? Are you doing the complete LToW program as you work through it, or will you work primarily in the elocution section and add that to what you have already learned with WWS to create WWS style compositions with the practiced elocution of LToW?

 

I guess they don't even write the same type of compositions/essays so I could see doing the whole program, but I just hate the idea of backing up and simplifying in any way after the depth that we have gone into with WWS. I would do LToW if WWS3 doesn't come out in time, but I don't want to feel like we are starting all over. dd11 has a pretty clear idea of how writing works with WWS, and so anything I bring in needs to add to that.

 

 

I completely agree, and we will not be backing up and simplifying. Having done WWS2, I will need to do some serious adapting of LToW, but this is reasonably easy because the material is taught through discussion, so I will just change what we discuss. What I plan to do is have ds begin the process of writing persuasive essays using LToW's approach but WWS2's content. DS needs to learn to identify and support a thesis -- this is clearly and logically taught in LToW, and it is not taught in WWS. When we hit the section on definitions, we will use WWS2's more rigorous list of questions. But when we hit a new invention topic, like cause/effect, LToW will act as a nice and easy introduction and make WWS3 easier the following year. We will definitely work through all of the elocution material. And as I stated previously, I will leave out the obvious, boring, essay types at the beginning to make room for the first half of LToW2.

 

LToW is NOT a step backwards from WWS. Rather a step sideways. Basically, and this is a simplification, WWS focuses on paragraph depth and power in middle school and writing persuasive essays in highschool. LToW focuses on writing persuasive essays in middle school, and leaves depth and power of paragraphs for high school.

 

What was particularly helpful was your characterization of the programs - parts-to-whole vs. whole-to-parts. I love that WWS teaches incrementally, but my dd is definitely a big-picture girl. The way you have described LToW makes me think that it would help her to see the big picture, and get a mental idea of what we're going for.

When this finally came to me, I knew I was ready to write the comparison. Everything just became clear.

 

Each week while discussing the WWS assignment, I review where the pieces fit into the whole of essay writing. It is really important for my son to understand this.

 

I tried reading the manual three times and gave up each time. Then I finally sat and forced myself to get through half of it. The only way I would consider using it is to read the whole thing myself and then create my own personal teacher's manual to teach from.

Apparently the second edition (which is what I have) is much better than the first, but it is still really wordy. I am simply taking notes on the invention material, and using them for discussion. There are summaries in the back that are excellent, and if you know what you are doing, you could just use those.

 

Basically, I look at the TM and Student book for each lesson and then go over each canon (invention, arrangement, elocution) and give assignments based on my lesson. Sometimes I combine invention and arrangement, sometimes I might even split up part of the teaching in one of the cannons. It really depends on what I want to focus on with Ds. I don't really follow the plans that are laid out in the TE, though I do refer to them from time to time.

This is how I see myself working with LToW.

 

I think the discussions that LT encourages through questioning is key to getting Dc to think. That helps them see what they can write about. I really think that's where LToW stands out. It gives you and Dc tools to use that encourage meaningful discussion and help ferret out the issues and develop a thesis and coherent argument out of any type of material. I can see the strengths of WWS too, but it doesn't sound like it will encourage deeper thinking or help Dc to generate ideas like LT will.

 

WWS1 does not encourage thinking at the same level as LToW, but WWS2 has kids thinking more. However, WWS does not get kids to come up with a thesis to prove and to evaluate potential arguments. I completely agree that LToW really stands out in its ability to get kids to think more deeply about proving a thesis.

 

I think that was all of the questions, let me know if I missed one.

 

Ruth in NZ

[freesia]

Thanks, lewelma.

[ladydusk]

Yes, thanks!

[shanvan]

And a big thanks from me too!

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh! I was definitely agreeing about the TM! I have the updated Tm and it isn't any better.

 

Rose, I have the TM, Student book and the Cd's. I listened to the Cds while on the treadmill to get a feel for the process. Basically, I look at the TM and Student book for each lesson and then go over each canon (invention, arrangement, elocution) and give assignments based on my lesson. Sometimes I combine invention and arrangement, sometimes I might even split up part of the teaching in one of the cannons. It really depends on what I want to focus on with Ds. I don't really follow the plans that are laid out in the TE, though I do refer to them from time to time. You really need the TM and Student workbook. I wish they were combined and there are times when I wish some of what is in the TM was in the Student & vice versa. It is ridiculous that the TM will sometimes say that significant portions of the student exercise have been omitted. It annoys me that I sometimes have to stop and ask Ds for his book, just so I can see what is missing. And, we are not always sitting near one another when I need to see his book. Anyway, that's how i handle it, but I am somewhat comfortable teaching writing and I know what LT is aiming to teach, so I feel comfortable adapting.

 

I think the discussions that LT encourages through questioning is key to getting Dc to think. That helps them see what they can write about. I really think that's where LToW stands out. It gives you and Dc tools to use that encourage meaningful discussion and help ferret out the issues and develop a thesis and coherent argument out of any type of material. I can see the strengths of WWS too, but it doesn't sound like it will encourage deeper thinking or help Dc to generate ideas like LT will. But, I really need to take a closer look at WWS before I can draw any real conclusions or compare as Ruth has.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot, Shannon! This is really helpful.

[fluffybunny]

Thank you for the very useful thread Ruth. Would you say that IEWB is parts to whole or whole to parts?

 

I am wondering if there is some key here, because my ds12 had a huge struggle with WWS1 yet he is finding IEWB a breeze. So I am wondering if we should do LToW next, if the p to w works better.

[Jane Elliot]

So for those of you using LToW: what do you use? Teacher's Manual, Student Manual? Is the teacher's manual necessary, given the Lesson Guides on the website? How about the dvds/cds? I can't see myself watching a 20-30 min dvd before teaching each writing lesson . . . . How are people implementing this, and what components do you use?

 

LTOW is one program that I couldn't (or perhaps I should say "wouldn't") have chosen to do if not for the DVD's. I'm using Student Manual, Teacher's Manual, DVD's, CD's, and online helps. I just couldn't wrap my brain around everything without all the handholding. I watch the DVD's while on the treadmill or while ironing. I think it's defininely possible to do this program with fewer components, but I needed the help.

[Kalmia]

Due to the strange and endlessly redundant layout of the TM (new edition is better than the old as there is only one TM vs. two!), I decided to read through it, listen to the CDs, add a small amount of information from Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student and rewrite the entire thing into a MS Word "work text" in which my son could follow the steps one by one and end up with a completed essay.

 

This sounds crazy but the incremental lessons in LToW and the repetitive layout of the TM were driving me nuts, yet this is a program that really teaches invention and the common topics very well and as such is worth wrestling through. I particularly like the metaphor the author uses of going to "five mines" (5 cannons of invention) to mine material for your essay. This metaphor really clicked for my son. Also I liked how he introduced Invention as "taking an inventory" of what we know about the topic rather than in the usual way we think of "making things up" or inventing a technological "invention."

 

So my advice is to listen to the CDs DVDs first, taking notes. Then look at the written materials, highlight the important parts of the TM, study the sample lesson pages, and then teach it your own way. For an older student, I would even have them watch the DVDs or listen to the CDs.

 

WWS is fantastic. If the editions were all printed we would just stick with that. But with the gap between WWS1 and WWS2, LToW is a legitimate and useful filler, with enough of a different take on the problem of writing classical arguments that I think it is worth the time to tackle. It just takes A LOT more prep than WWS.

[Kalmia]

Oh, and I really love the ANI sheet (Affirmative, Negative, Interesting) method of LToW to organize the the Invention part of essay writing. It is a huge step up from regular non-classical writing programs because it guides the student to pull out material from depths they would not likely discover in a traditional "brainstorming" session. So in LToW there is room for the initial brainstorming, but then the student is then coached through the 5 cannons of Invention (Defintion, Comparison, Relationship, Circumstances, and Testimony) to mine more specific information. Then this is added to the ANI sheet. This process forces the student to look in different places for information and to weigh pieces of information against each other to tease out subtle (and not so subtle) differences between them. So there is a lot of analysis going on in the Invention stage. All useful stuff hidden in that dense TM!

[shanezomom]

I have really wanted to use LToW b/c of Andrew Kern, but I need an "open and go" type of curriculum with my work schedule. To intermingle the two programs means it just won't get done around here. Reading all this with great interest.......

[shanvan]

 

LTOW is one program that I couldn't (or perhaps I should say "wouldn't") have chosen to do if not for the DVD's. I'm using Student Manual, Teacher's Manual, DVD's, CD's, and online helps. I just couldn't wrap my brain around everything without all the handholding. I watch the DVD's while on the treadmill or while ironing. I think it's defininely possible to do this program with fewer components, but I needed the help.

 

 

When I first started reading the TM, I thought about the DVDs, but I just could not justify the cost. I also realized that a lot of my angst was about whether or not I was teaching it exactly like the Circe people. Once I got over the idea that I could teach it my way and have great results I was happy not to sit through the DVDs. Of course, after reading your post, I'm curious about them again. I seem to remember them being very much like the Cds, except the lessons are there for you to watch. Maybe that's part of why I decided I didn't need them.

[Kalmia]

Shanvan

 

You don't need both the CDs and the DVDs. One or the other seems vital, though, for making sense of the TM.

[shanvan]

Shanvan

 

You don't need both the CDs and the DVDs. One or the other seems vital, though, for making sense of the TM.

Oh, there is no way I'd spend $ on them now that we're in the middle of LT. I have so many other things to spend money on! I was just trying to remember my thoughts about them just in case it helps someone.

[Cynful]

Ruth,

 

I'm just wondering if your thoughts have changed about Classical Writing now that you are further into WWS and LToW? Or how/if CW compares?

 

Thanks,

[Kendall]

Ruth, I really appreciate the comparison and also the description you gave on how you might use both. I also appreciate,Kalmia and Shannon, your description of how you use LTOW. I put it aside years ago because of the lack of open and go and because of my lack of comfort with doing a program in a way other than intended. I'm getting better at using non open and go programs and I'm also getting better at making a program work for me. I used much of LTOW with my current 9th grader last year in our own way and it was very valuable. I had intended to finish it along with WWS2 but WWS2 has taken more time than expected. My 9th grader is doing WWS2 and hasn't done WWS1. It is working, but I still don't know long term if it was best. I don't have the experience Ruth does of working through all of WWS1; I have 2 working through it now and we are at Week 13.

[Kfamily]

Hi Ruth,

 

I too would love to know your thoughts on how WWS and CW compare to each other. I've alway planned on staying with CW, but I have lately looked at the Memoria Press sequence of Classical Composition. I then decided to stay with CW. But, I would be interested in knowing how you think CW compares to WWS. I know you are very busy, so please don't feel pressured by this....:) Like everyone else, I'm so grateful for the time you take in writing these comparisons down. Thank you so much!

[SilverMoon]

Very helpful and informative! I very much appreciate your writing threads. :001_smile: I've used lots of CW, bits of WWS, and plan to use LTOW this fall. CW has taught me tons about teaching writing, and we'll certainly be "tweaking" LTOW to suit us.

 

 

 

To those asking about CW, grab another cup of coffee and try the thread she mentioned in the OP.

Well, that is about it. I am happy to answer questions if anyone has any. I have reviewed a bunch of curricula before on this thread, and a LOT of other people contributed. So it is worth your time to have a read if you have not already.

[Nicholas_mom]

Thank you Ruth for taking the time to write this out and sharing your information. This is very much appreciated! Also, than you to others sharing how they use a TM that is difficult in the first place :)

[materursa]

Ruth,

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to share your observations and opinions on these. This is exactly the sort of info that I really needed and couldn't find. :)

[Melissa H. in GA]

Thank you so much for this. I've been trying to narrow down what I'm going to use for my rising 7th grader in the fall.

 

Melissa

[Holly IN]

Hello,

 

Re to TMs: Some say do not use the TMs as in this thread and some said you can't do without a TM. I do not like a wordy TMs either and the price is OUCH esp with a dvd. Right now my son is in WWS1 (he is finishing up freshman year). I have to make a decision to continue with WWS2 (not sure when its coming out...I have it on preorder from amazon) or go to LTOW then WWS2. Some of you did it between WWS1 and WW2 or did WWS1 then WWS2 then LTOW. Which way is best and why? If you feel differently than the other then why? I am going back to re-read this thread and the other big one that Lewelma started. Just a bit confusing to me. ;)

 

Holly

[MicheleinMN]

Thank you!

[happyhome]

Thanks so much, Ruth! This is incredibly helpful and timely for me, too, as I decide what we do for 6th grade after finishing WWS1. I will definitely be giving LTOW a hard look.

 

What was particularly helpful was your characterization of the programs - parts-to-whole vs. whole-to-parts. I love that WWS teaches incrementally, but my dd is definitely a big-picture girl. The way you have described LToW makes me think that it would help her to see the big picture, and get a mental idea of what we're going for. She also thrives with discussion-based teaching. We are going through Essay Voyage together right now, and while it doesn't teach her to write the way that WWS does, it is inspiring and engaging for her to have discussions *about* writing, about the purpose of writing, the job of the essay, and it helps her see what the excercises in WWS are for. Which makes them less tedious . . . Sounds like LToW could help us do more of that kind of discussion and analysis.

 

It's kind of the same with math - we use MM, for the incremental, step-by-step, understand how to do the problem sort of teaching, but I think dd would cry if that's all she did for math. We use things like LOF, living math books, and problem solving books to keep her eye on the big picture - what math is for, and why it is beautiful and fun. So I'm seeing a parallel in how I should be organizing writing instruction.

 

Thank you!!! :cheers2:

 

Chrysalis.....we too use MM and I'm following this thread carefully for the reasons you've stated here. I just love Ruth! i have a "Ruth" folder on my computer for science and writing!!! My rising 7th grader is also a big picture girl. Having just pulled her from public school last year, her writing instruction was atrocious. We started with IEW this year. She learned a lot but it moved way too slow for her (she hates DVD instruction....who knew?). We'll be starting WWS 1 along with OYAN next year. As I read your post, I am curious to know what math resources you're using to give her the big pic in math. My daughter thought LOF was a bit "silly" (my second loves it) so I'm wondering if maybe some of your other resources might work. Can you suggest some good living book titles? What problem solving books do you use? We just finished MM 6 and I am constantly hearing the whole "what do I need this for?" thing. She's mathy, I think. She just doesn't like working without a purpose. Wonder who she gets that from? Sorry to go off topic on a writing thread. Maybe I should start a new one?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Chrysalis.....we too use MM and I'm following this thread carefully for the reasons you've stated here. I just love Ruth! i have a "Ruth" folder on my computer for science and writing!!! My rising 7th grader is also a big picture girl. Having just pulled her from public school last year, her writing instruction was atrocious. We started with IEW this year. She learned a lot but it moved way too slow for her (she hates DVD instruction....who knew?). We'll be starting WWS 1 along with OYAN next year. As I read your post, I am curious to know what math resources you're using to give her the big pic in math. My daughter thought LOF was a bit "silly" (my second loves it) so I'm wondering if maybe some of your other resources might work. Can you suggest some good living book titles? What problem solving books do you use? We just finished MM 6 and I am constantly hearing the whole "what do I need this for?" thing. She's mathy, I think. She just doesn't like working without a purpose. Wonder who she gets that from? Sorry to go off topic on a writing thread. Maybe I should start a new one?

 

I'll pm you about math!