Need advice re: dealing with mental illness as leader is SS class

[Heatherwith4]

Ok, this is likely to be long and convoluted. Sorry! Also, I am not looking for specifically Christian advice, even though this is regarding Sunday School. :)

DH and I sort of co-lead a Sunday school class. He teaches, and I handle a lot of the administrative type stuff. It started out as a young marrieds class, but we welcomed everyone, and ended up with people ranging from late twenties to early seventies and both married and singles.

There is one single gentlemen, around late 30s or so, who has been coming for about a year and a half now. Let's call him J. He has always been very quiet, never speaks up in class. He has never returned DH's phone calls or offers to go to lunch. He has always seemed pretty socially withdrawn. DH and I both understand that not everyone is outgoing (I am certainly not) so none of this has really bothered us.

Just for background info: he is a single dad, and has often listed on the prayer sheet to pray that he would have more time with his son. His son goes to youth group during our SS time. J has also put on the sheet requests that he wouldn't be in the way in our class. He has been told many times that he is not in the way, and he is welcome.

I do see people talking to him every week. People have asked him to move and sit with him, and he doesn't. He just sits in the back corner, and he always leaves before class is over. We all feel sorry for him.

However, there are also some concerning things happening. There have been a few times when people have asked him simple questions, i.e. - do you want a handout? he responds with contempt and disgust.

There have been several times that he's been walking around the class (during the meal, which we have before class starts), talking to himself. He says things like "this is my last time in here" " nobody likes me" etc.

A very sweet grandmotherly type lady who never has a bad word to say approached DH last week and said that A) she feels terrible that he is obviously hurting and doesn't know how to help and B) she is concerned that he may have violent tendencies. I think her exact words were,

if anyone was going to come in here with an AK-40, it would be him. :(

So, I'm just looking for opinions, perspective, any BTDT. We want to help him, and we want to protect ourselves and our class. Also, DH has spoken with church leadership and we are awaiting advice from them. We know he has spoken with church staff before, but we don't know if he has followed through with professional counseling.

Another strange thing is, it's a large church, so he could find several other options for SS, if he's that unhappy with our class.....

Thanks in advance!

[Guest inoubliable]

Not sure what you can do, other than show compassion, be welcoming (which you seem to be doing already), and be aware that he may have a mental illness that may require that you respect the boundaries that he's obviously put up.

[Lisbeth]

That's tough...ok, it is often against the law to carry in a Church unless the Church gives express permission, but I believe the best defense against a dangerous person with a gun is one or more moral, mentally healthy individuals also with guns...to protect the innocent.

 

I would be carrying and watching. No little old ladies or children should have to fear this person.

 

I know someone who eventually asked a frightening person to leave their Church. It was pretty ugly and the police had to get involved. I asked if anyone was afraid that he might show back up after that with a weapon and she said, "You betcha, but we are ready." With a wink.

 

Terrible that it has to be like that in a Church.

[Mergath]

The percentage of people dealing with mental illness that eventually resort to acts of mass violence is extremely miniscule, so try to not worry. :grouphug:

 

I'd be torn, if it was my decision. On the one hand, people with untreated mental illness can be violent, but on the other, you don't want to be the church that doesn't welcome the mentally ill.

 

Can you have your pastor say something to him along the lines of, "The SS teacher has told me that you expressed you aren't happy with the class, so I was wondering if you'd like to meet with me once a week at your convenience instead of going there?" That way, the pastor could find out what's wrong and encourage the young man to get the help he needs, and you won't have to worry about the safety of your class.

[Mergath]

That's tough...ok, it is often against the law to carry in a Church unless the Church gives express permission, but I believe the best defense against a dangerous person with a gun is one or more moral, mentally healthy individuals also with guns...to protect the innocent.

 

I would be carrying and watching. No little old ladies or children should have to fear this person.

 

I know someone who eventually asked a frightening person to leave their Church. It was pretty ugly and the police had to get involved. I asked if anyone was afraid that he might show back up after that with a weapon and she said, "You betcha, but we are ready." With a wink.

 

Terrible that it has to be like that in a Church.

 

I think you may have missed a few verses in the NT... :blink:

[Flowing Brook]

I am not sure what your denomination is but maybe your husband can talk to him about his salvation. Find out if he really understands what salvation is. Otherwise I would just continue praying for him and showing him as much love and kindness as possible. The fact that he is still coming shows that you all must be meeting some of his needs.

[Orthodox6]

I am struggling with anger toward this post. Truly angry feelings.

 

I have not seen this man in person, so of course I cannot evaluate how he would make me feel when in his presence. Given only the information OP provided -- and no more than that information -- there is no indication that the man harbours violent tendencies. One woman expressed her imaginary speculations. That is all they are at this point.

 

The recent shootings in the U.S. are unleashing an uneducated hostility toward people with mental illness. Some people are potentially dangerous. The great majority are not.

 

I cannot diagnose this man. Perhaps he has major depression. Perhaps he is on the anxiety spectrum. Perhaps he has Asperger's (which is NOT mental illness). Perhaps he is stuck in a miserable job with dreadful superiors and coworkers. Perhaps he is at the end of his endurance as a single parent. Perhaps he has lost his job, or is about to lose it. He may be suicidal (which is not the same as homicidal). He has already requested prayers from the community. Nobody appears (from the post) to know the man well enough to know what his life encompasses.

 

Guess what? I have major depression, Asperger's (includes social awkwardness), and ADHD, and have dealt with them all since childhood. Are you going to grab a gun in the event that we ever meet in person?

 

OP and her husband have done the correct thing in privately approaching the leadership of their church community. People are making friendly overtures which the man rebuffs. Don't stop praying for him, and don't stop making calm, non-invasive friendly overtures. If the boy's mother is still living -- (I don't know whether the man is divorced or is a widower.) -- perhaps the head minister privately can ask her for whatever advice she may care to provide. If someone has a good relationship with the son, perhaps that person gently can express to him concern about his father's low spirits.

 

There are productive measures that the church community can take. Ignorance (of what mental and behavioural health conditions entail), prejudice, stereotyping, and hostility are not productive.

 

With sincerity,

 

In Christ,

 

Orthodox6

 

 

 

 

That's tough...ok, it is often against the law to carry in a Church unless the Church gives express permission, but I believe the best defense against a dangerous person with a gun is one or more moral, mentally healthy individuals also with guns...to protect the innocent.

 

I would be carrying and watching. No little old ladies or children should have to fear this person.

 

I know someone who eventually asked a frightening person to leave their Church. It was pretty ugly and the police had to get involved. I asked if anyone was afraid that he might show back up after that with a weapon and she said, "You betcha, but we are ready." With a wink.

 

Terrible that it has to be like that in a Church.

 

[Heatherwith4]

Thanks ladies, for your advice so far.

WRT to boundaries, we do almost wonder if he wants us to stop talking to him at all, because he seems irritated when someone does talk to him. But then he's going around muttering that people don't like him. And he has told my DH that he feels disliked.

DH and I have conceal carry permits. We don't really want to carry in church. I actually never carry, and DH only carries during work, as he works in a neighborhood with a lot of robberies.

Mergath, I like your idea about seeing if he would like to meet with the pastor or someone during that time. We need to find out if he's currently seeking counseling, but of course that's his decision whether to tell us.

I realize that it's really unlikely that he will do something violent. But it is hard not to consider it as a possibility given his actions and recent events in the news. I'm trying not to be paranoid.

 

[Jennifer3141]

Heather, I was active in an inner city church that had a LOT of mentally ill people in the congregation for years. I taught a youth group that had a mentally ill teenager circling the room for months before we got him on the correct meds and the correct counselor.

 

What I did with people who I considered more *at risk* than others was, I talked with our church leader. He had had extensive training in psychology and counseling and what to look for and how to help, etc. etc. I knew enough to say to him, "Hey! Something isn't right!" basically.

 

I know the media makes it seem like there's an armed whacko out there behind every bush but there isn't. It's important to remember that. On the other hand, you've had at least one member mention physical safety and that's not something anyone should have to worry about, especially in a church or a school.

 

There's nothing wrong with you calling the head minister and saying, "Hey, I've got a problem. Mr. X is making me uncomfortable during my class. And I've had church members tell me they are concerned too. Can you observe my class next week and/or speak privately with Mr. X? We have tried to reach other and we can't seem to get to him."

 

What church leader would ignore that?? Isn't that what churches are supposed to do - pull the odd sheep back into the flock and offer comfort?

[Impish]

I think talking to the pastor is an excellent idea. I don't know what else you can really do, since he's rebuffing all overtures from ppl.

[kalanamak]

 

A very sweet grandmotherly type lady who never has a bad word to say approached DH last week and said that A) she feels terrible that he is obviously hurting and doesn't know how to help and B) she is concerned that he may have violent tendencies. I think her exact words were,

if anyone was going to come in here with an AK-40, it would be him. :(

 

 

Just a thought: Has this grandmotherly type has been watching too much TV news.

[Heatherwith4]

 

 

Just a thought: Has this grandmotherly type has been watching too much TV news.

 

Maybe so. :) However, it does seem that when mentally ill people do violent things, everyone says, "we had a bad feeling about him." I don't want to live with that, you know? Even though I realize that the possibilities are really small.

[mytwomonkeys]

well, i would wait to hear from the leadership. i don't think being concerned is being mean at all. if he has met previously with staff personnel already about his issues, your additional observations can help them serve him. they will not (or should not) disclose his personal information to you, but it is important that they are aware of what is taking place in class. if other members of the class are coming to you, i would try to diffuse their concerns and limit the discussion about this man. but i think going to someone on staff was the right move. you are volunteers leading a sunday school class to the best of your ability. you do not need to figure this out by yourselves :grouphug:

[MomatHWTK]

If you are worried about violence, better lock up all the men between 14 and 60. What about all the violent crimes committed by people who nobody had a bad feeling about? Of course someone is going to say they had a bad feeling after the event, duh. The person is weird, he's an outcast. Much easier to label someone like that a killer than the guy next door. FWIW, there are lots of people who would label you and your DH as potential killers because you have concealed carry permits. Don't think your little old lady friend wouldn't come for you next if the media told her you were the big bad wolf.

[Jennifer3141]

If you are worried about violence, better lock up all the men between 14 and 60. What about all the violent crimes committed by people who nobody had a bad feeling about? Of course someone is going to say they had a bad feeling after the event, duh. The person is weird, he's an outcast. Much easier to label someone like that a killer than the guy next door. FWIW, there are lots of people who would label you and your DH as potential killers because you have concealed carry permits. Don't think your little old lady friend wouldn't come for you next if the media told her you were the big bad wolf.

 

 

 

Please bear in mind that although we did have one poster recommend arming herself for this class, it wasn't the OP. You're going to find a range of responses, some more psychologically sound than others on an internet message board.

 

And is it true that we have recently had some random people kill other random-ish people and that the killers were frequently described as odd, at least. Statistically, it if FAR more likely that this man will kill HIMSELF than anyone else but that is also a very, very good reason to get professionals involved.

 

Labeling the mentally ill isn't enough. We have to TREAT them too.

 

And circling the class muttering, "No one likes me" and not being able to connect to the people there when there must be a reason this person is THERE is cause for concern. SS classes are usually optional, unless you're in a cult. So some part of this person is reaching out. I think the only problem is that the OP and her DH haven't been able to reach back to him for whatever reason. It's time to call in the "big guns" who are actually not GUNS. They are hopefully much better trained people.

[MomatHWTK]

You are right, it wasn't the OP who began talking about making preparations to kill the man. But the reality is that there are a whole lot of people out there who don't fit the standards for normal and they do give norms a bad feeling sometimes. We cannot decide as a society that anyone who acts at all outside the accepted mainstream is a potential killer. Or at least in my opinion we cannot continue to call ourselves a decent society if we do.

[Heatherwith4]

You are right, it wasn't the OP who began talking about making preparations to kill the man. But the reality is that there are a whole lot of people out there who don't fit the standards for normal and they do give norms a bad feeling sometimes. We cannot decide as a society that anyone who acts at all outside the accepted mainstream is a potential killer. Or at least in my opinion we cannot continue to call ourselves a decent society if we do.

 

You do make a good point. FWIW, I do understand and empathize with being "the weird one." I don't want to make the guy feel worse than he already does.

[Jennifer3141]

You are right, it wasn't the OP who began talking about making preparations to kill the man. But the reality is that there are a whole lot of people out there who don't fit the standards for normal and they do give norms a bad feeling sometimes. We cannot decide as a society that anyone who acts at all outside the accepted mainstream is a potential killer. Or at least in my opinion we cannot continue to call ourselves a decent society if we do.

 

 

And I totally agree with you on that! I just don't want to take it out on the OP. By all means, fire away at anyone who thinks SHOOTING this guy is an acceptable response. :)

 

I have pondered this societal shift too and I wonder if it's related to pink flamingoes. Hear me out - Remember the one crazy house in your neighborhood that had pink flamingoes or Xmas lights in July or whatever??? We seem to have done away with a lot of those "problems" with homeowner's associations and property tax values and whatnot. So now we have people trying to stuff their weirdness away. And it doesn't work. Add in a society more in love with guns than any we've known before and you have a problem.

 

Bring back pink flamingoes IMO! Fly your freak flag and have FUN. And nobody shoot the dang flamingoes, please!!

[Slipper]

I'm wondering if there is a member of your church who is a psych-ologist/iatrist? Or, if you know one who might consider attending your church for a while? If so, perhaps they would join your class and attempt to befriend or give you their "gut feelings" about what could be troubling him.

 

Otherwise, yes, ask your pastor to sit in on the class and go from there.

[Heatherwith4]

I'm wondering if there is a member of your church who is a psych-ologist/iatrist? Or, if you know one who might consider attending your church for a while? If so, perhaps they would join your class and attempt to befriend or give you their "gut feelings" about what could be troubling him.

 

Otherwise, yes, ask your pastor to sit in on the class and go from there.

 

Thanks, this is a helpful idea. We have a large church, so I'm sure there are several.

[mytwomonkeys]

Thanks, this is a helpful idea. We have a large church, so I'm sure there are several.

 

 

my church has two licensed counselors on staff. your church may too? it isn't uncommon.

 

i sure hope it works itself out. hugs.

[kalanamak]

Maybe so. :) However, it does seem that when mentally ill people do violent things, everyone says, "we had a bad feeling about him." I don't want to live with that, you know? Even though I realize that the possibilities are really small.

 

 

Those are the ones you remember. I remember plenty of "I saw him every day for years and he seemed fine to me".

Plus, the press loves these hindsight is 20/20 statements, and people suddenly have different opinions once something dramatic has happened.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You have two different issues going on here - or maybe even three.

.

1. Actually helping the man in question. Asking him to lunch or to sit beside someone isn't working. So I would stop doing that. I would however have your dh ask him (or possibly a pastor who might know him) how he feels about the class. Tell him that you've noticed him saying that no one likes him. Is that how he really feels? What does he think would help him? He may need the space and may not be able to handle the kind of interaction that sitting next to someone or going out to lunch requires.

 

2. Keeping people safe. Of course this begs the question of whether they are in danger from him or from some unknown source. I personally go for praying and relying on "normal" ways of safety. (Cell phones in case of needing to call for help etc.) And some degree of wisdom in knowing if a situation is getting out of control. Since I've worked for years with homeless, low income, those with disabilities (not necessarily mental illness but sometimes including mental illness) I've relied on these methods for years in ministry. I've been in some volatile situations. I've personally been hurt because the person felt comfortable with me and has seen me as an authority figure. No one else has ever been hurt.

 

3. Keeping other people comfortable. Knowing the answers to no. 1 will help you to know how to advise others in the class as far as reaching out.

 

Love is meeting people where they are. Sometimes that is simply to keep teaching God's Word, which will give stability where nothing else will.

[Jennifer3141]

Those are the ones you remember. I remember plenty of "I saw him every day for years and he seemed fine to me".

Plus, the press loves these hindsight is 20/20 statements, and people suddenly have different opinions once something dramatic has happened.

 

 

 

I agree with you too! Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the suicide rate much higher for the mentally undiagnosed and/or untreated than the average person? It's far, far more likely that this is a disturbed person who needs some help than a potentially violent gun wielding maniac but doesn't the just plain old disturbed person deserve some help too??

 

If there is any good to come our of something like Newtown, maybe it could be that people like the OP see a person in trouble and seek help for that person instead of ignoring it. I wish that everyone would do that in the spirit of helping out their fellow man but on the other hand, you can see how 24 hour news media makes that so much harder. It's hard to erase the mental image of 25 little body bags from many people's minds.

[TravelingChris]

I agree with talking to the staff and hopefully finding someone who is a professional in psych matters to come and observe. I would continue praying. But I am not ready to discount so much what the old woman fears- not really that he is about to come into the church and shoot but I think the tone in which he mtters his sayings and the general body language and vibes the man gives out may be what is causing the fear. I may be quite wrong but if all the smaller congregations I have attended had odd but harmless people, I expect that the OP's much larger congregation has that too. I think that most people are usually inclined to give people a chance and unless you think this woman who came up to you is hysterical or prone to exageration, I would consider seriously her warning. Now, I do believe that the man is much more likely to commit suicide than homicide but we don't want that either.

 

I really think you should involve staff. Unless you have led a very sheltered life, OP, you probably have come across many socially awkward and depressed people who did not raise your alarms at all. If you are truly concerned, I would not ignore your feelings. Read The GIft of Fear. It may clarify for you what you are observing and reacting to what you haven't conscientiously realized.

[Heatherwith4]

I agree with talking to the staff and hopefully finding someone who is a professional in psych matters to come and observe. I would continue praying. But I am not ready to discount so much what the old woman fears- not really that he is about to come into the church and shoot but I think the tone in which he mtters his sayings and the general body language and vibes the man gives out may be what is causing the fear. I may be quite wrong but if all the smaller congregations I have attended had odd but harmless people, I expect that the OP's much larger congregation has that too. I think that most people are usually inclined to give people a chance and unless you think this woman who came up to you is hysterical or prone to exageration, I would consider seriously her warning. Now, I do believe that the man is much more likely to commit suicide than homicide but we don't want that either.

 

I really think you should involve staff. Unless you have led a very sheltered life, OP, you probably have come across many socially awkward and depressed people who did not raise your alarms at all. If you are truly concerned, I would not ignore your feelings. Read The GIft of Fear. It may clarify for you what you are observing and reacting to what you haven't conscientiously realized.

 

Thank you. Yes, there are a few other individuals in our class who are marching to the beat of their own drummer, and they have not worried anyone. As I mentioned in my OP, it's a diverse class and a very welcoming group. I have been around mentally ill people in quite a few different situations, and I've only had one other person raise red flags.

I've been meaning to read The Gift of Fear for a while. I will do that very soon.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

[jhschool]

That's tough...ok, it is often against the law to carry in a Church unless the Church gives express permission, but I believe the best defense against a dangerous person with a gun is one or more moral, mentally healthy individuals also with guns...to protect the innocent.

 

I would be carrying and watching. No little old ladies or children should have to fear this person.

 

I know someone who eventually asked a frightening person to leave their Church. It was pretty ugly and the police had to get involved. I asked if anyone was afraid that he might show back up after that with a weapon and she said, "You betcha, but we are ready." With a wink.

 

Terrible that it has to be like that in a Church.

 

 

I agree with the above. Moral, mentally healthy individuals to protect the innocent sounds right.

For the record, the above is not making preparations to kill the man next time he comes in.

The above is making preparations in case the man turns out to be a threat.

 

The situation does not sound like your "normal" person with mental illness or such. I have

encountered

lots of people with issues and they are mostly sweet even if they are disturbed or a little odd.

It sounds like

the OP and the older lady are getting "bad vibes" about this man and something in their guts tells them there

is something wrong, whether it be a subtly threatening feeling or something worse.

 

I would in addition to being prepared alert staff immediately. Get the pastor involved, and

the counselors. Do not ignore your feelings. The book that a PP recommended is definitely

a valuable resource.

 

Good luck and God bless everyone in your church and keep you safe.

[DawnM]

Could you create a circle with the chairs that would include everyone and not really allow anyone to sit in the back by himself? I would be curious if he would be more inclined to join the group in a setting like that.

[BigMamaBird]

Maybe he doesn't feel comfortable speaking to you directly. How about making a class wide response/recommendation sheet? You could take 5 minutes at the beginning of class and hand it out. People could answer some questions about what they like/dislike about the class, any subject they'd like to study in depth, etc. You could have a section on it for people who'd like the teacher to call them in person to chat about something. That way he could privately give input about his thoughts on the class without feeling like he was being grilled. If his sheet was returned with feedback, you might be able to meet some of his needs without him feeling confronted.

[Orthodox6]

Could you create a circle with the chairs that would include everyone and not really allow anyone to sit in the back by himself? I would be curious if he would be more inclined to join the group in a setting like that.

 

I suspect that he would just leave. That kind of physical layout sometimes makes even "garden variety" shy people uncomfortable.

[bettyandbob]

I suspect that he would just leave. That kind of physical layout sometimes makes even "garden variety" shy people uncomfortable.

 

 

Yes, perhaps a few people would leave. I know I would.

[Heatherwith4]

 

 

I suspect that he would just leave. That kind of physical layout sometimes makes even "garden variety" shy people uncomfortable.

 

Yeah, I think you're probably right. I don't even feel comfortable sitting like that. It would be difficult to do that anyway, since we have a meal at the beginning of class. :)

 

Here's a small update: DH has spoken with a mental health professional who is familiar with J, and he says he doesn't feel he is a threat. The staff is still going to help us with the situation, and DH has a meeting with one of our pastors tonight. He is probably going to ask a member of the staff to sit in on our class for a time.

[Heartsjoy]

Seconding the survey idea here.

 

You might involve some similar people in designing it.

The goal of the survey would be finding out what makes folks feel welcome/comfortable or uncomfortable.

 

You could start by listing things you already do on a likert scale and blanks under each for suggestions.

 

singing with a hymnal 123456789

 

You are looking for what triggers anxious uncomfortable feelings. It may not be obvious. They may not be things you can change, but an awareness can help you plan the time without escalating things.

 

The last thing anyone of us wants to feel is that we are the problem. That feeling shortcircuits all progress.

 

A situation where success builds on success just like phonics to fluency is the goal.

 

Hugs and Prayers