UPDATE: How would you find out why someone was in prison in 1940?

[Kathryn]

If you found someone on the 1940 census in the Mississippi State Penitentiary, how would you go about finding out why they were there?

 

Latest update 02/14/13

[aggieamy]

I don't know if this would be the most effective way but you could look at newspaper articles from their hometown when they were sentenced.

[Parrothead]

If you found someone on the 1940 census in the Mississippi State Penitentiary, how would you go about finding out why they were there?

Those records would be recorded at the courthouse where the trial occurred. I believe it would be the Clerk of Court's office.

[Kathryn]

So, there wouldn't be some central state place to ask? I know the town where his wife was in 1940, but I don't know if she moved there before or after whatever happened.

[Guest inoubliable]

Well now I'm curious. I just called my mom, who is a professional genealogist, to see what she suggests. I suppose this is a testament to my curiosity.

[aggieamy]

Those records would be recorded at the courthouse where the trial occurred. I believe it would be the Clerk of Court's office.

 

This suggestion is way better than mine. This is what a grown up would do. My suggestion was more of what the Hardy Boys would do.

[kubiac]

Per the U.S. Census, my great-great-grandfather was in prison in 1900 in Alabama. I wish I could remember what order we did this in, but we found good records the following places:

 

* Writing to the prison/asylum where he was imprisoned; they sent a copy of his record, including some copies of letters he'd written the governor requesting clemency.

* Court records for the county where he was from; they didn't have court transcripts as we know them today, but there were a couple of pages of a legalistic retelling of the trial, verdict, etc.

* Once we had a date and place for his crime, we were able to find a couple of newspaper articles, including an obit of the deceased; sadly, the trial did not warrant coverage, presumably because the sensational part was over.

 

Unearthing his story was somewhat cathartic for older relatives in the family. His daughter (a beloved matriarch) had always been secretive about her father, but once we were able to find out the truth, a lot of previously confusing details and anecdotes from her life began to make sense!

 

(In case you're interested, he was probably a terrible alcoholic and general ne'er-do-well. He shot and killed his brother-in-law, who was both his wife's brother and his sister's husband, if that makes sense. There was a dispute over an inheritance from the in-laws' side, and he apparently felt like he was being treated badly. He was eventually confined to Bryce Asylum in Tuscaloosa for the remainder of his life.)

 

Write to the MS Department of Archives and History and the MS Department of Corrections with what info you have about him, and they will hopefully be able to share some material. GOOD LUCK!

[Kathryn]

Well now I'm curious. I just called my mom, who is a professional genealogist, to see what she suggests. I suppose this is a testament to my curiosity.

 

While you're asking, does she know if they didn't enumerate orphanages? Here's the story according to DH's grandma:

 

DH's grandma and her five younger siblings were put in an orphange "temporarily" while their mom got a job and got stuff together when her husband "ran off" (the man I just found in prison). When she came back for the kids, only the oldest two were still there, the younger four having been adopted out. So, in 1940 I find grandma's dad in prison, her mom living alone and claiming to be widowed, but no trace of the six children.

[kubiac]

 

This suggestion is way better than mine. This is what a grown up would do. My suggestion was more of what the Hardy Boys would do.

 

No, no, your suggestion was excellent! Newspaper writeups of family history are the best, because the reporter/editors are motivated to include paper-selling color and gorey details. :p Obits and other newspaper coverage are absolute treasures for genealogists and historians!

[Kathryn]

Per the U.S. Census, my great-great-grandfather was in prison in 1900 in Alabama. I wish I could remember what order we did this in, but we found good records the following places:

 

* Writing to the prison/asylum where he was imprisoned; they sent a copy of his record, including some copies of letters he'd written the governor requesting clemency.

* Court records for the county where he was from; they didn't have court transcripts as we know them today, but there were a couple of pages of a legalistic retelling of the trial, verdict, etc.

* Once we had a date and place for his crime, we were able to find a couple of newspaper articles, including an obit of the deceased; sadly, the trial did not warrant coverage, presumably because the sensational part was over.

 

Unearthing his story was somewhat cathartic for older relatives in the family. His daughter (a beloved matriarch) had always been secretive about her father, but once we were able to find out the truth, a lot of previously confusing details and anecdotes from her life began to make sense!

 

Write to the MS Department of Archives and History and the MS Department of Corrections with what info you have about him, and they will hopefully be able to share some material. GOOD LUCK!

 

Ooh, thank you so much! I don't know if DH's grandma knows that her dad was in prison. I think she thinks he just ran off. He did find them once they moved to SC about five years later, but he disappeared again shortly after that and she never knew what happened to him. I did find a cemetery record of him dying in 1955.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

While you're asking, does she know if they didn't enumerate orphanages? Here's the story according to DH's grandma:

 

DH's grandma and her five younger siblings were put in an orphange "temporarily" while their mom got a job and got stuff together when her husband "ran off" (the man I just found in prison). When she came back for the kids, only the oldest two were still there, the younger four having been adopted out. So, in 1940 I find grandma's dad in prison, her mom living alone and claiming to be widowed, but no trace of the six children.

 

1940s and in Mississippi? Um. :( Could be a Georgia Tann case. I'll ask my mom when she calls back about the orphanages question. Your DH's grandma's story sounds very much what a lot of troubled or less-well-off families's stories were when Georgia Tann would intervene and take the children, to turn around and sell them to anyone with the money to plop down. Tragic. I just finished reading a book on her a few weeks ago.

[kubiac]

 

While you're asking, does she know if they didn't enumerate orphanages? Here's the story according to DH's grandma:

 

DH's grandma and her five younger siblings were put in an orphange "temporarily" while their mom got a job and got stuff together when her husband "ran off" (the man I just found in prison). When she came back for the kids, only the oldest two were still there, the younger four having been adopted out. So, in 1940 I find grandma's dad in prison, her mom living alone and claiming to be widowed, but no trace of the six children.

 

I'm not a pro genealogist, but I did genealogy intensely for about 10 years (including some paid work for Cyndi of Cyndi's List). Anyway, they absolutely should be enumerating institutions like orphanages. That said, they would only list kids that were there on the exact day of the census, and they very well might have been sloppy in the extreme about name spellings and so forth.

 

Was this in a city or the country? If it was a rural area, you might want to browse the rolls looking for the listing for something that was commonly called the "County Poor Farm." The kids might have been left there.

[Happy]

May I just say, ladies, this is a fascinating thread....a good example of why I keep hanging around here.

[Kathryn]

 

1940s and in Mississippi? Um. :( Could be a Georgia Tann case. I'll ask my mom when she calls back about the orphanages question. Your DH's grandma's story sounds very much what a lot of troubled or less-well-off families's stories were when Georgia Tann would intervene and take the children, to turn around and sell them to anyone with the money to plop down. Tragic. I just finished reading a book on her a few weeks ago.

 

Oh wow. I just googled her. I'd never heard of that before. I guess I'd always assumed that perhaps his grandma was confused about what had happened (she was 11 at the time) or it was just a freak accident that they were adopted out. I know the mom looked for the children for the rest of her life. She did find two of them, but only one maintained contact with her. The two youngest vanished without a trace.

 

I just told DH about this and he suggested that if they really were purposely giving away/selling children, they might not have wanted them enumerated.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Oh wow. I just googled her. I'd never heard of that before. I guess I'd always assumed that perhaps his grandma was confused about what had happened (she was 11 at the time) or it was just a freak accident that they were adopted out. I know the mom looked for the children for the rest of her life. She did find two of them, but only one maintained contact with her. The two youngest vanished without a trace.

 

I just told DH about this and he suggested that if they really were purposely giving away/selling children, they might not have wanted them enumerated.

 

Yep. "Tragic" doesn't even begin to describe it really. I PM'd you.

[Kathryn]

I'm not a pro genealogist, but I did genealogy intensely for about 10 years (including some paid work for Cyndi of Cyndi's List). Anyway, they absolutely should be enumerating institutions like orphanages. That said, they would only list kids that were there on the exact day of the census, and they very well might have been sloppy in the extreme about name spellings and so forth.

 

Was this in a city or the country? If it was a rural area, you might want to browse the rolls looking for the listing for something that was commonly called the "County Poor Farm." The kids might have been left there.

 

That's what I thought. I know names can be way off and I've tried every single possible variation for each of the children. It was in a town according to DH's grandma, but I haven't found an orphanage listed. I've found a hospital and a poor farm in the county, but nobody listed that could be them.

[Kathryn]

 

Yep. "Tragic" doesn't even begin to describe it really. I PM'd you.

 

 

PMed you back.

[Cera]

Just googled Georgia Tan. Which biography would you recommend?

[Guest inoubliable]

Just googled Georgia Tan. Which biography would you recommend?

 

 

I read this one.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Baby-Thief-Corrupted-Adoption/dp/1402758634

Written by an adoptive mother, she adds a bit at the end about what it meant to her being an adoptive parent and learning all that she did about Georgia Tann. Some of the pictures..well, I can't even think of the words. There are pictures in there of full-page newspaper ads placed by Tann, advertising babies in her care. For sale. For Christmas presents.

[Kathryn]

 

I read this one.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/1402758634

Written by an adoptive mother, she adds a bit at the end about what it meant to her being an adoptive parent and learning all that she did about Georgia Tann. Some of the pictures..well, I can't even think of the words. There are pictures in there of full-page newspaper ads placed by Tann, advertising babies in her care. For sale. For Christmas presents.

 

 

My library has that one! I just requested it. Thank you.

[Renthead Mommy]

Was Georgia Tann part of the Butterbox babies? I saw a part of a movie on that (probably Lifetime). It's horrible what was able to go on back then.

[Guest inoubliable]

Was Georgia Tann part of the Butterbox babies? I saw a part of a movie on that (probably Lifetime). It's horrible what was able to go on back then.

 

No, the Butterbox Babies was in Canada. Tann was based in the south, out of TN mostly. It is horrible, isn't it? :( Ever see/read Mommie Dearest? Joan Crawford was an alcoholic nut and, at the very least, emotionally abused her adopted children. Adopted (bought) from Georgia Tann. She was such a nutter that she told people her two youngest (who were twins) were NOT twins because she was terrified that their birth parents would track the kids down and try to get them back. Very sad.

[A.Balaban]

Some libraries have genealogy rooms for local history. You might be able to call a local library and see if they can provide you any advice about orphanages in the area. This will be quite the rabbit trail. Good luck!

[unsinkable]

 

While you're asking, does she know if they didn't enumerate orphanages? Here's the story according to DH's grandma:

 

DH's grandma and her five younger siblings were put in an orphange "temporarily" while their mom got a job and got stuff together when her husband "ran off" (the man I just found in prison). When she came back for the kids, only the oldest two were still there, the younger four having been adopted out. So, in 1940 I find grandma's dad in prison, her mom living alone and claiming to be widowed, but no trace of the six children.

 

.

[Alessandra]

This is a fascinating thread! I do genealogy on and off (but not even close to semiprofessional). I know how frustrating it can be when people seem to drop off the map and you end up reading (as opposed to searching) census records. No advice, but I hope you find the people you are searching for.

[Kathryn]

 

 

I read this one.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Baby-Thief-Corrupted-Adoption/dp/1402758634

Written by an adoptive mother, she adds a bit at the end about what it meant to her being an adoptive parent and learning all that she did about Georgia Tann. Some of the pictures..well, I can't even think of the words. There are pictures in there of full-page newspaper ads placed by Tann, advertising babies in her care. For sale. For Christmas presents.

 

I finally got this from the library and read it all in 24 hours. It was so sad, but so interesting at the same time. It was tough, both as a mother imagining my own children being stolen from me, and thinking about what DH's family went through. I have no clue if there is a connection to DH's family, but I did notice that where she grew up and visited her family is just one county away from where his grandmother lived and her siblings disappeared.

 

As to the original question here, I was finally directed (from the county librarian where they lived, to the Dept. of Corrections, to the State Archives) to where the records are, but now I have to wait longer. Since I'm not a resident of MS, I have to send my request via snail mail with $27, then have them get it and tell me what it will cost to copy, then send more money and wait for them to copy it and send it. They said turn-around time is 3-4 weeks.

[Elizabeth in MN]

 

While you're asking, does she know if they didn't enumerate orphanages? Here's the story according to DH's grandma:

 

DH's grandma and her five younger siblings were put in an orphange "temporarily" while their mom got a job and got stuff together when her husband "ran off" (the man I just found in prison). When she came back for the kids, only the oldest two were still there, the younger four having been adopted out. So, in 1940 I find grandma's dad in prison, her mom living alone and claiming to be widowed, but no trace of the six children.

Yes, they did record kids in orphanages. This is how I found out my great-grandma sent off her two sons from her first marriage when she got married a second time.

[Barb_]

 

 

While you're asking, does she know if they didn't enumerate orphanages? Here's the story according to DH's grandma:

 

DH's grandma and her five younger siblings were put in an orphange "temporarily" while their mom got a job and got stuff together when her husband "ran off" (the man I just found in prison). When she came back for the kids, only the oldest two were still there, the younger four having been adopted out. So, in 1940 I find grandma's dad in prison, her mom living alone and claiming to be widowed, but no trace of the six children.

 

What a terribly sad story. You know, whenever someone mentions how much better things were "back then" I think of situations like this. It would still be bad, no doubt, to have a husband sentenced but thank god the outcome would be very different today. That poor woman.

[Mrs_JWM]

Wow - I had no idea about any of this, either. Very sad.

[Live2Ride]

If you have a local LDS church, they normally have a family history center and it is open to the public.

 

I just placed that book on hold too. I like history related books...

[Tammyla]

Some libraries had/have old newspaper micro-fish. I hope you find lots of information. Now I've just got to read that book.

[TN Mama]

I just wanted to say that after reading this thread before Christmas, I checked out The Baby Thief from the library. I was completely blown away that something like that not only existed, but was just flat out ignored. Those poor families...

[Rebecca VA]

My mom was one of the babies adopted through Georgia Tann's agency! This was in 1934. She was only a few days or weeks old when her new family got her. I've always been so curious about her birth mother's circumstances, but I have no birth records or anything to use to trace her down.

[Kathryn]

My mom was one of the babies adopted through Georgia Tann's agency! This was in 1934. She was only a few days or weeks old when her new family got her. I've always been so curious about her birth mother's circumstances, but I have no birth records or anything to use to trace her down.

 

 

According to the book, Tennessee has opened all the records. You can probably find out!

[sparrow]

Huh. I didn't read this thread before and it reminded me that this happened in my mom's family! Her brother went to prison in the 1940s or 50s and while he was prison, his wife put their two children, a toddler girl and an infant boy, up for adoption and started living with another guy (back then!). I wonder if they were sold. I remember asking my mom about pictures of these children and she told me the story. I asked, "Is that even possible?!" I thought it was so sad.

 

In any event, the kids found my mom in 1990s. It was odd and uncomfortable and the relationships really didn't pan out. Her nephew, who didn't work, seemed to think he'd found a new source of money :glare: . I'm sure this colors why I don't have interest in searching out my own birth family.

[Kathryn]

I finally got a letter back from the MS Archives. It's dated 01/16 and postmarked 02/14. It gives me some info and then tells me it will be $4 to copy and mail and the price is good for 30 days from 01/16. Yeah, I got it 29 days later. Anyway, here's what it says.

 

We researched Series 1567: Convict Registers 1874-1981 and were able to locate the record of GREAT-GRANDPA. He was convicted for robbery and sentenced to 5 years. He only served 1 1/2 years due to his conviction being indefinitely suspended by Governor Johnson. Secondly, we researched Series 926: Governor Paul B. Johnson St. Pardons, 1940-1943. We were able to locate a pardon for GREAT-GRANDPA. According to the pardon, the judge, district attorney, sheriff, chancery clerk, circuit, clerk county judge and other prominent citizens recommended his suspension. Lastly, we researched Series 912: Governor's Office Pardon and Suspension Files 1920-194, in hopes to find the above mentioned recommendations. Unfortunately, we were unable to locate correspondence regarding his suspension of sentence. According to the pardon, GREAT-GRANDPA was convicted at the May 1939 term of the Jackson County Circuit Court. You may wish to contact their office for a copy of the original case file.

 

So, I called Jackson County and they didn't sound very hopeful for having the information, something about a bunch of things being lost in "the storm." She's going to look and see what they have and get back to me.

 

DH called his grandma this afternoon to let her know that we've been researching and found some stuff and he said she sounded excited. We're supposed to call her later tonight to discuss. This is the first she knows that we've been looking around, so maybe we can get some questions answered from her also. She didn't know he was in prison. She used to sit on her front porch waiting for him to come home with the bicycle he promised her before her mom took them to the orphanage. I also got his death certificate. He died of tuberculosis in New Orleans in 1958 after spending six months in the Charity Hospital. He listed his wife as his wife. Unfortunately, she had already married someone else. So, that's another mystery in all this!

[Catwoman]

Thanks for the update -- I was wondering if you'd ever managed to get more info!

[Parrothead]

Interesting stuff there. I hope you can find something from the court house. Is this storm she was talking about Katrina?

[Corraleno]

She didn't know he was in prison. She used to sit on her front porch waiting for him to come home with the bicycle he promised her before her mom took them to the orphanage.

 

:crying: :crying: :crying:

 

And I'd never heard of Georgia Tann before this thread. Just... wow. :cursing:

 

Jackie

[Kathryn]

Interesting stuff there. I hope you can find something from the court house. Is this storm she was talking about Katrina?

 

 

I assume so. I was confused at first. I was thinking Jackson, MS, not Jackson COUNTY, MS, which is apparently on the coast. I can't figure out why he was being tried there. The family was from Jones County and has absolutely no known connection to Jackson County. I certainly would have never thought to look there. I hope they have something. If not, I'm going to have to wait until I can afford to pay someone to comb through microfilmed newspapers at the archives because they aren't online from the time period. They also suggested I ask the library where the governor's papers are located, but they have a finding aid online and it doesn't look like that kind of correspondence was kept.

[Parrothead]

 

I assume so. I was confused at first. I was thinking Jackson, MS, not Jackson COUNTY, MS, which is apparently on the coast. I can't figure out why he was being tried there. The family was from Jones County and has absolutely no known connection to Jackson County. I certainly would have never thought to look there. I hope they have something. If not, I'm going to have to wait until I can afford to pay someone to comb through microfilmed newspapers at the archives because they aren't online from the time period. They also suggested I ask the library where the governor's papers are located, but they have a finding aid online and it doesn't look like that kind of correspondence was kept.

 

The only thing I can think of is he or his attorney asked for a change of venue.

[Kathryn]

I talked with grandma tonight. I found out that she was in the Mississippi Children's Home in Jackson, MS (Where Georgia Tann got her start twenty years before). She said her siblings were all sent to foster homes. One was in the Home with her for a few weeks, but she was there alone for about a year. Her father is the one that came to take her home. She didn't want to talk a lot about what happened on the phone. She said she wanted to sit down and do it in person. She did say that the brother that they found early on had run away from his foster home and that another brother that they found years later was in the upper part of the state.

 

With the news that the trial was near the coast, I was able to find an article on his arrest in the Biloxi newspaper. In May 1939, a man was arrested in connection with an armed robbery of a railway depot and said GREAT-GRANDPA was one of his accomplices. He was arrested and the article said that in questioning him, they "solved several robberies that had been committed with firearms in Jackson County and Laurel." So, I guess that is why the trial was in Jackson County. But, why was he also not tried in Laurel? Would they roll the charges all together in one county? IDK how these things work. And if he committed several armed robberies, why would he get five years, then have his sentence suspended, and then be pardoned? Any chance he may not have done it?

[mommaduck]

He may not have done it, he may have taken the token blame for someone else, he may have had good behaviour while incarcerated, he may have been able to inform on larger criminals, he may have known the right people, or a combination. There could be a fine line between politics and crime back then, paticularly in certain areas. Look up the South Carolina Hellhole Gang...yep, I have kin in that group. One was a moonshiner given game warden position to help catch Capone. Later, he turned to politics. So many stories in the family, there are already a couple of books out there (with names changed).