Ok, I'm stupid, I don't understand this...

[AmyontheFarm]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/10/05/no-more-prayer-at-u-of-windsor-convocation-ceremonies/

 

If you don't believe in any existence of any sort of God, then why are you upset if other people do? Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself. Why force your beliefs to change this local societies traditions and culture? Yeah, I know some will think I'm stupid and I'm fine with that because me and my pink unicorns agree on this.

 

Don't force your lack of religion on me!

[clarkacademy]

Because people only want freedom of their beliefs.

[Mrs Mungo]

Nobody is forcing anything.

 

“I ask that you take a moment to reflect on those who guided you along your path of learning,†the chancellor will read.

 

“To appreciate our families, our teachers, our peers, the world we live in, and all that inspires us.â€

 

According to the university’s Office of Human Rights, Equity and Accessibility, the permanent change is meant to reflect a “more inclusive atmosphere†at the learning institution.

 

Scott pointed out that the new convocation text still allows attendees to pray, if they count religion as something that inspires them. The major difference is that prayer “is no longer dictated to us.â€

 

There will be no public prayer that is said out loud. That does not stop people from praying.

[Impish]

I read a sign outside of a church once. It said, "As long as there are exams, prayer will never be taken out of school."

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[AnIslandGirl]

Live and let live. I like that they are including a moment of silence so that everyone can reflect on what or who they wish.

 

"Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself."

 

My DD has been known to shake her head and later in private say, "I can't believe all these people believe in fairy-tales. Just because it's written in a book doesn't mean it's true." Then she proceeds to go on with her day. To each their own.

[*********]

Nobody is forcing anything.

 

 

 

 

 

There will be no public prayer that is said out loud. That does not stop people from praying.

 

 

Sorry OP, I'm with Mrs. Mungo. To be frank, it's unlikely I'd agree with a prayer offered at a PUBLIC university's convocation ceremony. I'd prefer it was left out, too.

 

I think the moment of silence is a wonderful idea. Then I can pray by myself, the way I see fit.

 

When attending a public learning institution, I personally am NOT looking for any sort of christian education/guidance there, and to me that'd include a prayer from someone I probably haven't even met before, let alone had time to discuss theology with.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/10/05/no-more-prayer-at-u-of-windsor-convocation-ceremonies/

If you don't believe in any existence of any sort of God, then why are you upset if other people do? Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself. Why force your beliefs to change this local societies traditions and culture? Yeah, I know some will think I'm stupid and I'm fine with that because me and my pink unicorns agree on this.

 

Don't force your lack of religion on me!

 

Here's what I don't understand: Why is changing tradition to make others feel more comfortable or included such an issue? As others have said, people are free to pray in their own way if they feel the need. Do the words need to be said aloud to be validated?

 

Would you truly rather that atheists continue to feel excluded and irritated and think of believers as idiots? I have a very hard time believing that, and I would really hope that we could all be more tolerant of each other than that.

 

I just realized how close we are to the annual "happy holidays" debates *sigh*

[marbel]

I'm a little unclear, but it sounds like this university began as a Roman Catholic institution but is now a public institution; is that correct? If public, prayer doesn't belong there anyway. If it is still a Roman Catholic school, then omitting the prayer is wrong. Anyone attending an event at a religious school should expect prayers of that religion.

[Catwoman]

I think Amy's point is that it is being done "for the first time in the university's history," and that's what she finds objectionable. If there had never been any prayers, I'm sure she would have been fine with that.

 

Personally, I wouldn't care either way. I don't worry about it if there are prayers -- of any kind, for any religion -- because it's not going to kill me to stand there for a few minutes while they are being said. I always assume that the prayers are well-intended, and not there to try to convert anyone, so I don't stress about them.

 

I don't really understand either extreme. If they're praying for a few minutes and you don't like it, you don't have to participate. If they're not praying and you want to pray, no one can stop you.

 

I wouldn't protest a quick prayer at a commencement, but I wouldn't demand it, either. It's a non-issue for me.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Catwoman

[Mrs Mungo]

I think Amy's point is that it is being done "for the first time in the university's history," and that's what she finds objectionable. If there had never been any prayers, I'm sure she would have been fine with that.

 

Personally, I wouldn't care either way. I don't worry about it if there are prayers -- of any kind, for any religion -- because it's not going to kill me to stand there for a few minutes while they are being said. I always assume that the prayers are well-intended, and not there to try to convert anyone, so I don't stress about them.

 

I don't think the fact that it is the first time is a good argument at all. Tradition is not a valid argument for or against an act. It isn't going to kill anyone to have a moment of reflection instead of a public prayer.

[*********]

Because people only want freedom of their beliefs.

 

Isn't that the truth. :tongue_smilie:

 

I kinda feel like nowadays, lots of people have the 'You must be tolerant of *my* beliefs. And I won't tolerate you not agreeing!' attitude.

 

I'm dealing with some of that in my own family (cough my stepdaughter cough), and it gets old quick.

 

I should get an "I'm all for tolerance. So long as you agree with me" t-shirt and wear it around. But I suspect the people the sentiment is aimed at wouldn't get it. :P

[Catwoman]

Tradition is not a valid argument for or against an act. It isn't going to kill anyone to have a moment of reflection instead of a public prayer.

 

I didn't say that it would. I said that I didn't care either way. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

Isn't that the truth. :tongue_smilie:

 

I kinda feel like nowadays, lots of people have the 'You must be tolerant of *my* beliefs. And I won't tolerate you not agreeing!' attitude.

 

I'm dealing with some of that in my own family (cough my stepdaughter cough), and it gets old quick.

 

I should get an "I'm all for tolerance. So long as you agree with me" t-shirt and wear it around. But I suspect the people the sentiment is aimed at wouldn't get it. :P

 

I think various people have trouble understanding what it means to be tolerant. We see claims of "violating rights of free speech" all the time that are inaccurate. Kids don't always understand that they have to respect the people feeding and clothing them. It is a tough thing to find balance with, I think. I have to accept that other people do things that I disagree with, even if I don't actively approve of them. It is hard.

[*********]

I think various people have trouble understanding what it means to be tolerant. We see claims of "violating rights of free speech" all the time that are inaccurate. Kids don't always understand that they have to respect the people feeding and clothing them. It is a tough thing to find balance with, I think. I have to accept that other people do things that I disagree with, even if I don't actively approve of them. It is hard.

 

It is hard to find a blance with.

 

My stepdaughter, for example. I love that girl SO much. I helped raise her from age five. But she is making some choices that I absolutely CANNOT agree with.

 

So what do I do? I love her anyway. I support her, I spoil her, I talk to her about other things. But I don't hide the fact that I disagree with her about these choices she's making. And it's ok. She's a big girl; she understands. Sort of. :tongue_smilie: She still has some of that 'I don't just want you to accept me, but I also want you to *approve* of what I'm doing' going on. But that's life, isn't it? I did that to my parents when I was her age. Of course, I like to think I wasn't as BAD as her. :tongue_smilie: But that's probably not even true. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

It is hard to find a blance with.

 

My stepdaughter, for example. I love that girl SO much. I helped raise her from age five. But she is making some choices that I absolutely CANNOT agree with.

 

So what do I do? I love her anyway. I support her, I spoil her, I talk to her about other things. But I don't hide the fact that I disagree with her about these choices she's making. And it's ok. She's a big girl; she understands. Sort of. :tongue_smilie: She still has some of that 'I don't just want you to accept me, but I also want you to *approve* of what I'm doing' going on.

 

I guess for *me*? Tolerating something means keeping my opinions about what other adults are doing to myself, unless they ask. They might know I disapprove, but I am not allowed to dictate what other adults do, even when I want to shake them and bring them to their senses, lol.

[*********]

I guess for *me*? Tolerating something means keeping my opinions about what other adults are doing to myself, unless they ask. They might know I disapprove, but I am not allowed to dictate what other adults do, even when I want to shake them and bring them to their senses, lol.

 

Even if those other adults are your children, who you are supposed to raise up in the Lord? Just curious. Not trying to 'start something'. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

Even if those other adults are your children, who you are supposed to raise up in the Lord? Just curious. Not trying to 'start something'. :001_smile:

 

You raise up your children in the Lord. After that, they are responsible for themselves. How well will I deal with it in reality? I don't know yet, lol.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Parrothead]

Not to get between Bethany and Mrs. M...

 

My thoughts:

If this is a religious school, then by all means one should know going in that religion and prayer is a big part of the school environment. No one is being forced to attend a religious school against their will. A religious school should not have to stop being religious to satisfy the non-religious.

 

If this is not a religious school, then by all means find a way to make it inclusive. The moment of silent reflection can be used by each person as each person feels is necessary. The religious can pray as fit to their faith. The non religious can stand there quietly. No harm no foul.

[Mrs Mungo]

Not to get between Bethany and Mrs. M...

 

My thoughts:

If this is a religious school, then by all means one should know going in that religion and prayer is a big part of the school environment. No one is being forced to attend a religious school against their will. A religious school should not have to stop being religious to satisfy the non-religious.

 

If this is not a religious school, then by all means find a way to make it inclusive. The moment of silent reflection can be used by each person as each person feels is necessary. The religious can pray as fit to their faith. The non religious can stand there quietly. No harm no foul.

 

It's a non-religious public school that was founded as a Roman Catholic school. It's the religious *tradition* that seems to be the hang-up here.

[nmoira]

My thoughts:

If this is a religious school, then by all means one should know going in that religion and prayer is a big part of the school environment. No one is being forced to attend a religious school against their will. A religious school should not have to stop being religious to satisfy the non-religious.

 

If this is not a religious school, then by all means find a way to make it inclusive. The moment of silent reflection can be used by each person as each person feels is necessary. The religious can pray as fit to their faith. The non religious can stand there quietly. No harm no foul.

Having attended the institution myself, I can assure you that it is not religious. :001_smile:

[katilac]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/10/05/no-more-prayer-at-u-of-windsor-convocation-ceremonies/

If you don't believe in any existence of any sort of God, then why are you upset if other people do? Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself. Why force your beliefs to change this local societies traditions and culture? Yeah, I know some will think I'm stupid and I'm fine with that because me and my pink unicorns agree on this.

 

Don't force your lack of religion on me!

 

Why do you think that it's only atheists who might be bothered by public prayer? Public prayer in America generally translates into Christian prayer. Many religious people in America are not Christian. Others are Christian and do not advocate public prayer at secular events.

[WishboneDawn]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/10/05/no-more-prayer-at-u-of-windsor-convocation-ceremonies/

If you don't believe in any existence of any sort of God, then why are you upset if other people do? Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself. Why force your beliefs to change this local societies traditions and culture? Yeah, I know some will think I'm stupid and I'm fine with that because me and my pink unicorns agree on this.

 

Don't force your lack of religion on me!

 

The university made this decision for itself. No one forced it to. Does it not have that right?

[merry gardens]

Here's what I don't understand: Why is changing tradition to make others feel more comfortable or included such an issue? ...

Well, if it's not "such an issue", then why change it? Someone obviously thought it was a big enough issue to make the change, so don't be surprised when people who don't like the change think it's a big issue.

[nmoira]

Well, if it's not "such an issue", then why change it? Someone obviously thought it was a big enough issue to make the change, so don't be surprised when people who don't like the change think it's a big issue.

 

I'll bet some people had the same reaction when Assumption (part of what was eventually the University of Windsor) started admitting women in 1950, or when the institution dropped its religious affiliation. Things change. :001_smile:

[kewb]

I don't see anyone forcing their lack of religion. There is a moment of silence for personal reflection. Pray away.

[hana]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/10/05/no-more-prayer-at-u-of-windsor-convocation-ceremonies/

If you don't believe in any existence of any sort of God, then why are you upset if other people do? Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself. Why force your beliefs to change this local societies traditions and culture? Yeah, I know some will think I'm stupid and I'm fine with that because me and my pink unicorns agree on this.

 

Don't force your lack of religion on me!

 

I don't understand the bolded. Are you from Windsor? I currently live in Windsor--it's a very diverse city (the fourth largest center of immigration in Canada). "Traditions and cultures" are VERY broad here.

[marbel]

I was thinking about this some more today. My children might be looking for a college in a few years. As a parent, I want to know what type of institution my kids would be going to. I don't know yet if we will be specifically looking at Christian schools, but if we do... I will want to know if a school really is Christian in its beliefs and practices, and not just in its traditions, kwim?

 

So if I was looking at a Christian school, I probably wouldn't choose one that claims a "Christian tradition" and has prayers before events once in a while but was otherwise a secular institution. I'd be looking for one where people actively preach and live the gospel. I would expect that nonChristians wouldn't be attracted to the school because of that. (Just as I would be unlikely to be attracted to an Islamic or Jewish school for my kids because I would expect those beliefs and practices to prevail.)

 

And if I was looking at a secular school, I think I would prefer one that is just that - secular, with no prayers of any type and no pretensions to any religious "tradition." My kids can pray during a moment of silence, and go to church off-campus. (I don't believe I would have a problem with religious clubs and such on campus either.)

 

I hope I'm saying this right. I just don't see the point of an otherwise nonreligious institution having prayers because once upon a time it was a Christian institution.

[Jenny in Florida]

Here's why it's problematic for me. Although I am religious, my beliefs don't line up with most mainstream religious institutions. And it always makes me cringe with uncomfortableness when I hear someone at a gathering of which I am a part offer a prayer that is supposed to include me. For example, note the use of "we" in this quote from last year's convocation ceremony at the same school:

 

"We pray you to bless this assembly, gather to recognize achievement, and celebrate life. Bless this and all universities in their quest for excellence. Be with teachers and students everywhere."

 

If I want to pray, I'll do it in my own way, to my own conception of the divine, and I absolutely want the right to determine what goes in that prayer.

 

If I come from a belief system that does not regonize a god at all, this kind of public statement separates me from the group, makes me "other," excludes me from what should be a shared experience.

 

Also, as I read the article, no one forced this change on the school. The administration simply decided to "widen the circle." I cannot imagine how that can possibly be construed as a bad idea.

[WishboneDawn]

I was thinking about this some more today. My children might be looking for a college in a few years. As a parent, I want to know what type of institution my kids would be going to. I don't know yet if we will be specifically looking at Christian schools, but if we do... I will want to know if a school really is Christian in its beliefs and practices, and not just in its traditions, kwim?

 

So if I was looking at a Christian school, I probably wouldn't choose one that claims a "Christian tradition" and has prayers before events once in a while but was otherwise a secular institution. I'd be looking for one where people actively preach and live the gospel. I would expect that nonChristians wouldn't be attracted to the school because of that. (Just as I would be unlikely to be attracted to an Islamic or Jewish school for my kids because I would expect those beliefs and practices to prevail.)

 

And if I was looking at a secular school, I think I would prefer one that is just that - secular, with no prayers of any type and no pretensions to any religious "tradition." My kids can pray during a moment of silence, and go to church off-campus. (I don't believe I would have a problem with religious clubs and such on campus either.)

 

I hope I'm saying this right. I just don't see the point of an otherwise nonreligious institution having prayers because once upon a time it was a Christian institution.

Great poinrt. Thanks for that perspective.:)

[laundrycrisis]

I don't see anyone forcing their lack of religion. There is a moment of silence for personal reflection. Pray away.

 

:iagree: !!!!!

[AdventureMoms]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/10/05/no-more-prayer-at-u-of-windsor-convocation-ceremonies/

If you don't believe in any existence of any sort of God, then why are you upset if other people do? Why not just stand there and think, "What a bunch of idiots?", to yourself. Why force your beliefs to change this local societies traditions and culture? Yeah, I know some will think I'm stupid and I'm fine with that because me and my pink unicorns agree on this.

 

Don't force your lack of religion on me!

 

So a non-religious public school decides (within the school) to modify their tradition to include a moment of silence (during which anyone can pray to whatever unicorns they wish) instead of a Christian prayer. And this is somehow forcing you to abandon your religion? I missed something here. Are institutions never ever allowed to change their traditions? Even if those traditions make members uncomfortable and no longer reflect the nature of the institution? Is there a reason you and your pink unicorns can't stand there and think "What a bunch of idiots" at the lack of prayer? Why does the default need to be the traditions of YOUR religion?

 

I'm an atheist and have sat through many prayers - in churches, at weddings, at events for religious schools, at funerals, at music performances, etc. No problem at all. I don't even think anyone is an idiot because of any of this. But a public institution choosing to not speak a public prayer... This in no way, shape, or form limits anyone's freedom to believe in whatever they want.

[AdventureMoms]

I was thinking about this some more today. My children might be looking for a college in a few years. As a parent, I want to know what type of institution my kids would be going to. I don't know yet if we will be specifically looking at Christian schools, but if we do... I will want to know if a school really is Christian in its beliefs and practices, and not just in its traditions, kwim?

 

So if I was looking at a Christian school, I probably wouldn't choose one that claims a "Christian tradition" and has prayers before events once in a while but was otherwise a secular institution. I'd be looking for one where people actively preach and live the gospel. I would expect that nonChristians wouldn't be attracted to the school because of that. (Just as I would be unlikely to be attracted to an Islamic or Jewish school for my kids because I would expect those beliefs and practices to prevail.)

 

And if I was looking at a secular school, I think I would prefer one that is just that - secular, with no prayers of any type and no pretensions to any religious "tradition." My kids can pray during a moment of silence, and go to church off-campus. (I don't believe I would have a problem with religious clubs and such on campus either.)

 

I hope I'm saying this right. I just don't see the point of an otherwise nonreligious institution having prayers because once upon a time it was a Christian institution.

 

 

This is such an great perspective, thank you! I can see how it could be seen as almost "false advertising" for a secular organization to continue to hold onto it's religious traditions.

[Heather in Neverland]

Sorry OP, I'm with Mrs. Mungo. To be frank, it's unlikely I'd agree with a prayer offered at a PUBLIC university's convocation ceremony. I'd prefer it was left out, too.

 

I think the moment of silence is a wonderful idea. Then I can pray by myself, the way I see fit.

 

When attending a public learning institution, I personally am NOT looking for any sort of christian education/guidance there, and to me that'd include a prayer from someone I probably haven't even met before, let alone had time to discuss theology with.

 

:iagree:

 

It's interesting because there was a time where I'd be upset over the change too. But after many experiences here watching people "combine" several religions into one of their own making (as in they say they are both Hindu AND Christian), I am a lot more discerning regarding group "prayer" anyways and which ones I care to take part in.

 

 

.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Heather in NC

[Heather in Neverland]

This is such an great perspective, thank you! I can see how it could be seen as almost "false advertising" for a secular organization to continue to hold onto it's religious traditions.

 

:iagree:

 

That's the feeling I was having but you worded it much better. It is either a Roman Catholic school (which then means it IS a religious school and prayer should be fine) or it is NOT a Roman Catholic school.

 

It IS false advertising of a sort to pretend to be a religiously-affiliated school but then want to act in every way like a secular school. If they have divested themselves of all their previous religious trappings and are a fully secular school then no prayer would be appropriate.

 

This is not targeted necessarily at that particular but at any school that does this. There is one here on the island that says it is a catholic school and sounds like a catholic school but they have no religion or catechism of any kind, no chapels, no prayer, nothing at all related to religion and when asked will tell you they are not a religious school.

 

One of the families that attends my school (a very religious school) inquired about school there and religion classes, etc., and was told "We're not a religious school. You will need to go to Dalat for that." The parent said "But I thought this is a catholic school?" and they said "It is. But we are not religious."

 

I don't get it.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Heather in NC

[PeacefulChaos]

This university isn't related to religion in any way, right?

In that case, I consider it perfectly normal and fine to not include a prayer. I don't see a problem with it.