Are Ivies just for super gifted kids?

[GinaPagnato]

If you have a child who is strong is something like math, but not profoundly gifted, would she ever make it into MIT? If she was admitted, would she be able to hold her own?

 

I'm talking about a kid who works hard, does well, is "ahead" of most of her peers, and is pushed with a rigorous curriculum, but isn't a savant, or someone who enjoys doing math in her free time. :D

 

Would a kid like this do well in an Ivy? Does a kid like this belong there? Are Ivies only full of genius-y kids, as opposed to someone who is (just) smart, and hard-working?

 

I'm asking to help guide some thinking around here. :tongue_smilie:

[regentrude]

If you have a child who is strong is something like math, but not profoundly gifted, would she ever make it into MIT? If she was admitted, would she be able to hold her own?

 

Would a kid like this do well in an Ivy? Does a kid like this belong there? Are Ivies only full of genius-y kids, as opposed to someone who is (just) smart, and hard-working?

 

The Ivies are not just full of little geniuses - but MIT is a very special case. I have a DD who is gifted in languages and math, does advanced work with rigorous curricula, takes calculus based physics at the university at age 15- but she would absolutely not be a good candidate for MIT because she does not have the exclusive focus and passion for math and science. She is well rounded and has other interests; she loves math, but does not live and breathe it.

A lot of the students at MIT will be single-mindedly focused on math and science, and a kid who is merely a strong, interested student might quite possibly be miserable about always coming in at the bottom of the class. It would be hell for my perfectionist daughter. We have ruled out MIT for this reason, even though she will apply to other Ivies.

 

I do not believe any of the above is applicable to other schools besides possibly CalTech.

[chiguirre]

MIT and the Ivies are different kettles of fish. MIT, CalTech, CMU, Rice etc. are full of seriously mathy kids who have a passion for STEM. My sister tried engineering at CMU and quickly figured out that just being bright or good at math wasn't enough. You really needed to want to live and breath robotics or computer science or chemical engineering or xxx to do well. She transferred and went to a top 20 law school instead.

 

The Ivies are full of smart, hard working kids who aren't geniuses but who have figured out how to set themselves apart from the pack enough to be admitted. Once you're in, the work load isn't that hard imho. I graduated magna cum laude from Penn's Wharton school without breaking a sweat (and I'm no genius). It may have changed a bit in the last 20 years, but when I went, the hard part was getting in.

 

I'm not sure I'd encourage Trinqueta to go to an Ivy as an undergrad. It's definitely worth paying for grad school at a name institution, but I'm less convinced that it's worth it for a bachelor's. I haven't really thought through the pros and cons extensively since hs is still 5 years off.

Edited September 27, 2012 by chiguirre

[Gwen in VA]

No, all of the students at Ivies and MIT are not geniuses. They are bright and motivated, but they are not all geniuses by a long shot.

 

At this point the acceptance rates are so low for the Ivies and other tippy-top schools that I'd just focus on giving my kid a GREAT education and helping him/her develop his/her passions, skills, and interests.

 

If that results in acceptance to an Ivy and that's what your kid wants, that's great! But if it doesn't result in an Ivy acceptance, your kid still has a great education and has developed his/her abilities to the max.

 

I come from a family that HIGHLY values degrees from "prestigious" institutions. While there are certainly advantages to attending Ivies, the Ivies don't have a monopoly on alumni happiness or success. I think there is a lot to be said to attending a supportive undergrad school and then going to a name grad program.

[creekland]

No, all of the students at Ivies and MIT are not geniuses. They are bright and motivated, but they are not all geniuses by a long shot.

 

At this point the acceptance rates are so low for the Ivies and other tippy-top schools that I'd just focus on giving my kid a GREAT education and helping him/her develop his/her passions, skills, and interests.

 

If that results in acceptance to an Ivy and that's what your kid wants, that's great! But if it doesn't result in an Ivy acceptance, your kid still has a great education and has developed his/her abilities to the max.

 

I come from a family that HIGHLY values degrees from "prestigious" institutions. While there are certainly advantages to attending Ivies, the Ivies don't have a monopoly on alumni happiness or success. I think there is a lot to be said to attending a supportive undergrad school and then going to a name grad program.

 

:iagree:

 

And for what it's worth, MIT isn't an Ivy. There are only 8 Ivy League schools and they are associated with their sports league. Those 8 include:

 

Brown

Columbia

Cornell

Dartmouth

Harvard

Princeton

U Pennsylvania

Yale

 

Schools like MIT, Stanford, CalTech, etc, are great schools with academics that put them into the top of the top schools, but they aren't Ivies.

 

Pending what the student wants, an Ivy may or may not be the best for them. Where my middle son goes he has peers that turned down Ivy acceptances with no regrets. Many schools will have similar students. It's all about the U having what the student wants for majors, research, fit, etc (as others have mentioned).

 

They are all good to great students. They aren't all geniuses.

[Kate in Arabia]

I was accepted at an Ivy school. I am not a genius, lol. I think I was smart and dedicated enough, I'm actually not really sure why I was accepted. My test scores and grades were ok (not top of the class), I remember writing a rather feisty essay (would that be enough?).

 

But in the end it didn't really matter, we could not afford it. I know it must have killed my parents, they called the school several times and did everything they could to make it happen, but they just couldn't. Middle class, student bright but not a genius, just did not work out.

 

I went to a state school instead and got a very good education (imo).

[Starr]

Mostly Ivies are for prep school kids that have the correct transcript, resume, tutors for the test and tutors for the essays. Oh and some money. :D

[jennynd]

My boss has a PHD from MIT... Not impressed

I have a co worker from MIT, very bright and ... Don't know what else to describe him.... Good looking. Too....

 

I was accept by Cornell for MS in mechanical eng. and I am no super gifted

 

So I supposed it is different from one to another

Edited September 29, 2012 by jennynd

[Arcadia]

My friend's younger brother was accepted at Harvard but could not get a scholarship. He ended up going to London School of Economics on full scholarship. He is bright but not super gifted.

I know a very nice ex-colleague from Brown and he is not super gifted either. His family is very rich though so he did not need a scholarship.

[freesia]

Mostly Ivies are for prep school kids that have the correct transcript, resume, tutors for the test and tutors for the essays. Oh and some money. :D

This is not my experience at all. We have a number of Ivy Graduates in my family and all were public schooled.

 

No, you don't need to be a genius to get into an Ivy. And even if you are a genius you may not get in. (My brother, for instance, does have a genius IQ and was turned down at the family Ivy and accepted at Yale.)

 

I agree with the PP who said not to make an Ivy your end all goal. There are loads of great schools.

[Alice]

My husband went to Yale. He thinks what got him in was juggling. :) He had formed a juggling troupe in high school and they performed places. His interviewer thought that was fabulous and apparently spent the whole time talking about it. It didn’t hurt that he was an unusual demographic also...Chinese American from Indiana. Now being Asian probably hurts you but back then it probably helped.

 

He says that it’s well-known and talked about at most of the Ivies that once you are in, it’s not that hard. That might be different for certain majors but he felt like it was true for him (architecture major).

[elizabeth]

A vote of dissent here. For privacy I am not giving numbers but suffice it to say that even if you have nearly perfect SAT and top 10% ACT unless you are incredibly wealthy there is no comfort zone IF you are accepted. Early Admission binding agreements force you to accept the offer and withdraw from all other institutions applied to . You have to do this before the Merit Scholarships and FAFSA is filed. You are basically shooting blind and saying no to all other schools before even hearing whether it will be affordable or not. It has become like picking the Preakness or Kentucky Derby winner, they like to lock down the incoming class of freshman early to nab the geniuses early. To heck with that. I did not abandon a rising legal career to teach my child for a decade to give up our freedom to choose her school in order to secure her a place at one of the Ivies or near Ivy schools. Brandeis and Cornell fell off our list due to this rather recent development. Too bad for them, 15 year olds with stellar SAT w/writing are hard to come by. Pissed does not begin to describe my thoughts on the matter. It is about MONEY.After the PSAT and SAT scores came in we started receiving mail from the 7 sisters, some Ivies and some very, very selective state uni's as they buy those lists to see the breeding stock from which they "buy " their thoroughbred and ensure via the Early Admission Mandatory Withdrawal policy. If you are rich it makes no difference to you whether you get financial aid so long as they are accepted since you can pay for it. Bryn Mawr, Barnard, Smith,Brown,Columbia, the list is endless of the fine schools who have sent us armloads of documents, invitations etc. All use this policy to lock in their class early. Thank God for Jesuit universities!!

Edited September 30, 2012 by elizabeth
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[Crimson Wife]

Mostly Ivies are for prep school kids that have the correct transcript, resume, tutors for the test and tutors for the essays. Oh and some money. :D

 

This used to be the case, but since the Ivies and other elite schools have become more selective and also more generous with their financial aid, they have started rejecting far more prep school kids than they admit. I read a panicky article about the trend a few years back in the New York Post (edited to clean up the last line).

 

"At the prestigious Dalton School, on Manhattan's Upper East Side, administrators can't remember the last time a graduating senior class experienced a 'Harvard drought.' In the past, it wasn't unusual for as many as seven students to be accepted through early admission to the top Ivy League institution, says a guidance counselor there. But for the first time in memory, inside sources say, no Dalton students will be shipping off to Harvard come fall. And some parents—who shell out $31,200 a year for their kids' private school education—are p****d."

[creekland]

Early Admission binding agreements force you to accept the offer and withdraw from all other institutions applied to . You have to do this before the Merit Scholarships and FAFSA is filed. You are basically shooting blind and saying no to all other schools before even hearing whether it will be affordable or not.

 

There is actually a legal out for kids who choose Early Decision, then find out the school is not affordable to them.

 

However, for families where finances are an issue (such as ours) it is recommended that they apply Early Action (not binding) or Regular Decision. I know students who made it in on these and who are got decent financial awards. They are not schools solely for the elite. But their acceptance rates are far lower than they used to be. On College Confidential someone had a college guide book from the '70s. Back then these elite places often had a 30+% (or greater) acceptance rate - so not so difficult to get in. Now they tend to have <10%. Their well-known great financial aid could easily be a part of the huge rise in applications. They didn't cost nearly as much back then either.

 

People talk about the "College Bubble bursting" but as long as the demand for a college education continues to go up I just don't see that happening for the selective schools. Plenty of families are willing to be full pay and there are plenty of applicants for their generous financial aid.

[mum]

Look at honors colleges from less "big name" schools. They can be fantastic and have high acceptance rates of their grads to Ivy grad schools. The students are motivated and intelligent and many of them all rounders-not one subject wonders. They get to take honors classes in all disciplines, and all GE classes are honors. We chose honors college at state U for a number of reasons, had scores to go elsewhere, but chose not to. State U has been a great fit for many reasons, one bonus is that most of the kids are from middle income families like ours. Many students don't have a car, there's no fancy clothes, food, trips, to keep up with, it's a comfortable spot. And we know that it will be debt free. I cannot speak strongly enough about the debt load that we are putting ourselves and our kids under, just for a name.

[butterflymommy]

I went to an ivy, my IQ was tested at 140 at age 12.... so, kind of high, but not exactly a savant. Personally I think the ivies want high SATs over anything else. I don't think they even consider someone with average SAT scores. I had very high SAT scores (perfect in verbal). 5s in two AP languages. My grades were A in everything except math and science. I didn't have much extracurricular. I had a friend at the time with perfect SAT scores, she was admitted to Yale.

 

Most of the other kids there when I attended seemed privileged, "molded" to be there if that makes sense, smart but not necessarily genius, and for the most part, upper middle class. Many said they were there just for the "ivy" piece of paper, aka the prestige.

 

Admissions may also take into consideration ability to pay. Is family income even on the application? I can't remember.

[wapiti]

Admissions may also take into consideration ability to pay. Is family income even on the application? I can't remember.

 

Whether it is unofficially considered is an interesting question, addressed in this recent article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevecohen/2012/09/29/the-three-biggest-lies-in-college-admission/

 

There are three big lies making the rounds:

• Standardized test (SAT and ACT) scores are less and less important.
  
• Asking for financial aid won’t have an impact on the admission decision; and
  
• There is a level playing field in college admissions.
  

[Crimson Wife]

Admissions may also take into consideration ability to pay. Is family income even on the application? I can't remember.

 

Not at the Ivies and the other super-elite schools with huge endowments and generous alumni donations, but definitely at the tier just below that.

 

A high school classmate of mine was the youngest of 5 kids. All of the older siblings paid full freight at one of the selective liberal arts schools (can't remember which one but think Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams, etc.) Then the economy tanked and the dad's real estate development company went bankrupt. My classmate, who actually had BETTER qualifications than some of her older siblings, got rejected. She did get a merit scholarship at another college and wound up doing fine (earned a PhD. and now is an oceanologist). But her family was furious at the school.

[Candid]

Not at the Ivies and the other super-elite schools with huge endowments and generous alumni donations, but definitely at the tier just below that.

 

 

The Ivies keep that endowment by cutting breaks for rich families. This is pretty well documented in The Price of Admission which when he wrote the book said that an iffy academic record and $100,000 in development gifts would get you in to even Harvard.

 

Some schools have even worse records, though for have large percentages of development admits.

[Crimson Wife]

The Ivies keep that endowment by cutting breaks for rich families. This is pretty well documented in The Price of Admission which when he wrote the book said that an iffy academic record and $100,000 in development gifts would get you in to even Harvard.

 

Some schools have even worse records, though for have large percentages of development admits.

 

You're talking about a handful of kids out of the 1600 or so freshman and the numbers that will get an unqualified kid in are quite a bit higher than $100k. At least quintuple or more. The absolute dumbest guy I knew at Stanford was one of DH's fraternity brothers, whose father was one of the school's trustees. My understanding is that it takes a 7 figure donation to get named a trustee.

 

If allowing in a handful of unqualified rich kids means that the school can offer generous financial aid to admits from low-to-moderate income families, then I personally think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

[Bostonian]

I don't know if these Harvard students are "super-gifted", but they have lost their sense of right and wrong:

 

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/11799

[FaithManor]

I don't know if these Harvard students are "super-gifted", but they have lost their sense of right and wrong:

 

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/11799

 

:eek::ack2::banghead:

 

Why don't they call it, "STDFest"?

 

I know this kind of #^$^&*^&^% goes on at many institutions, but for some reason today, it feels worse!

 

Where's the brain bleach when you need it?

 

Faith

[creekland]

I don't know if these Harvard students are "super-gifted", but they have lost their sense of right and wrong:

 

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/11799

 

There are reasons my guy chose not to pursue some schools - reasons such as this. Yale lost out for a very similar reason. It's good for potential students to do research about the life at some schools.

 

(Which is not saying all students there approve of what is going on either. I'm sure some don't. I HOPE some don't.)

[Muttichen]

Actually, this is just a very offensive name for a formal dance held at one of the houses. Each house holds a holiday formal and this is the informal name for Kirkland's. It's not what it sounds like.

[Bostonian]

Actually, this is just a very offensive name for a formal dance held at one of the houses. Each house holds a holiday formal and this is the informal name for Kirkland's. It's not what it sounds like.

 

From the linked article:

 

"Incest-Fest is, essentially, a campus party where making out and hooking up with as many people as possible is the goal. It gets the “incest†name because the event is open only to residents of Kirkland house–one of Harvard’s undergraduate residences. Thus, students who are living together (as if they were members of the same family, get it?? Incest? So funny, right?) are having sex with one another."

 

I don't think colleges should be sponsoring events encouraging "hook-ups".

[Muttichen]

The blog article left off the opening paragraph of the Crimson article which says this is the name of Kirkland's annual dance. The original article is criticizing the name. It is a dance only open to members of the house, who see themselves as family. The name is tacky and offensive to victims of incest, but the dance itself is just a dance.

 

Read the original article yourself here:

 

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/10/9/berstler-incest/