An article I think we should all read

[Impish]

Little kids often don't want to take baths, brush their teeth, write thank you cards, or share with others. Yet we teach them hygiene and manners rather than indulging bad behavior (I hope). That is our job as parents. Same with having the children show respect and kindness towards their grandparents.

 

Bill

You seem to be deliberately missing what so many have said.

 

Forcing a child to be physically affectionate is violating their boundaries. It sets up a poor dynamic. Physical affection is not the only way to show respect and kindness.

 

Anyone whose so insistent that they get what they want regardless of how the other person feels isn't someone I'm going to worry about. Seems to me that demanding physical affection from a reluctant child is VERY disrespectful and unkind towards the child.

[Spy Car]

I totally agree. Especially with that last line. I do not agree that violating a child's personal space by forcing them to hug when they do not want to equates to that at all. There are many respectful, kind ways for children to say goodbye to their grandparents that do not involve forced hugs or kisses.

 

There is that word "force" again, which I suppose is better than "coercion."

 

Sorry but I don't think encouraging children to be affectionate towards their loving grandparents is a "violation of a child's personal space" any more than encouraging them to brush their teeth is a violation of their personal space.

 

Bill

[Scarlett]

I've read most of the thread and finally just now the article. I've really enjoyed the thread and I hope it doesn't end up down a 'Billy trail' getting locked and all that.

 

I'm struck by the fact that these sickos are hard to spot initially. It takes kids feeling safe enough to tell the truth and parents/authorities willing to LISTEN and believe that truth.

 

I've been hypervigilent with my ds. He has never been left alone with ANY man except his father, my father and my husband. I've preached to him how these freaks work and that it could be ANYONE and that he is to always remember that no matter who might try something sick with him *I* will always believe him. I specifically say, 'EVEN if it is your father,your grandfather or your stepfather.'

 

So now he is 12. I can't keep him locked up forever. I don't want to. I have to rely on my good sense/gut and ds's training so far.

 

And still....most of these situations with coaches and the like would NEVER happen in my world. Never. I worry about close friends and family because I trust them.

[Spy Car]

You seem to be deliberately missing what so many have said.

 

Forcing a child to be physically affectionate is violating their boundaries. It sets up a poor dynamic. Physical affection is not the only way to show respect and kindness.

 

Anyone whose so insistent that they get what they want regardless of how the other person feels isn't someone I'm going to worry about. Seems to me that demanding physical affection from a reluctant child is VERY disrespectful and unkind towards the child.

 

It is just getting circular. We disagree, OK?

 

Bill

[FO4UR]

Forcing? In this universe saying "go give grandma a hug" is "forcing."

 

I think this is truly bizarre. Enabling children to be non-demonstative and non-affection towards loved ones will set them up for a lifetime of being cold and self centered.

 

My head is reeling.

 

Bill

 

 

 

Wow! This thread blew up!

 

 

Bill - A child will naturally show affection if the affection is there. My dc are all demonstrative with affection, giddy with happiness when Grandma and Grandpa come over. They have built a relationship based upon love and kindness and respect. NEVER have any of my dc refused a hug, and NEVER have any of their grandparents demanded one. It is a *natural* expression that should NEVER be forced.

 

 

 

 

I would never force an adult to hug someone they did not want to hug. Why should we treat children with less respect?

 

I have nieces and nephews that I only rarely see. I sit and talk with them, or play with them if they are little, and do not expect hugs. I am the adult, and I am to be the blessing to the child. The child learns respect and love by being respected and loved.

 

 

 

A child will naturally resist a physical demonstration of affection if true affection is not there. I think part of the problem is that you seem to think affection = respect. I disagree. It is utterly disrespectful to force a person to be physically affectionate against their own inclinations. The child deserves as much respect as the grandma.

 

Bizarre!!!!

[LibraryLover]

Little kids often don't want to take baths, brush their teeth, write thank you cards, or share with others. Yet we teach them hygiene and manners rather than indulging bad behavior (I hope). That is our job as parents. Same with having the children show respect and kindness towards their grandparents.

 

Bill

 

You know, I don't want to touch the other 'stuff' on this thread. We can make a monster out of any old sweet person talking to our kids at the library. I am not even going to go to that sad place.

 

However.

 

I admit, it bugged the crud out of me when one of my children wouldn't allow a kiss or hug from an awesome and loving grandparent.

 

I knew all the stuff about not forcing children to kiss nasty uncles etc., but my MIL, the saint? That pissed me off to no end, and I usually don't care about that carp. My MIL did everything with joy for my kids. She was a *really* old lady who made cakes and breads, with arthritic hands, for her grandchildren. She demanded nothing in return. Not even a hug or a peck on the cheek. She was never a martyr, but instead was one of the most mature and thoughtful people I have ever known. I miss her like crazy.

 

The kid who sometimes wouldn't allow a quick hug sure ate up those goodies. Certainly a child has a right to their own body, but seriously? My MIL adored the kid, didn't stink, wasn't 'ugly', and it made me upset seeing such a snub. I absolutely did sometimes bring the child to grandmother to be hugged, although my MIL told me not to worry about it. DC now oftens talks about how much dc loved the grandmother, and does not remember not being hugged, or not wanting to be hugged.

 

Child is perfectly fine and normal today, even if grandmother got in an occasional hug.

Edited September 25, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Bluegoat]

I think dealing with kids hugging and such is a balance based on development. But not, I think, a really difficult one to manage.

 

Boundries with our bodies are not all about how we feel in our minds. Shaking hands is a type of contact, so is hugging, so is kissing, and so is squeezing onto the Metro.

 

These things all have aspects that are about social propriety. If you refuse to shake someone's hand that you have met, that is pretty offensive. There are people who don't like it, and usually they figure out a way to avoid it without giving offense or they suck it up.

 

Hugs and kisses are not innately different. There are Western cultures where a kiss or hug is the cultural equivalent of a handshake. When I go to visit my friend is Quebec, they all kiss me. I'm not a kissy person, but there it is.

 

In North America, hugs and kisses are the appropriate social gesture for some kinds of relationships, like grandparent/grandchild. That is not more threatening than the kissers in Quebec.

 

With really small kids, they sometimes balk at a lot of social expectations. THat is ok, that is what being small is about. They may be too young to explain the niceties to, or too young to separate their actions from their feelings. Parents have to feel out their level of development to see whether they should just leave it and explain to grandma that Willy is just not able to manage that yet, or try and help willy, at an appropriate pace, understand the social norms.

 

I don't think anyone should be phased by a two or three year old who refuses those kinds of conventional social gestures. I would be surprised at a normal seven year old who did. Being uncomfortable is not always evidence that something is inappropriate, and that is a lesson to be learned as well. Discomfort can come from many different sources.

 

I don't think telling your child, even insisting, that kissing Nana is the appropriate social gesture of greeting will make it difficult for him to "be in touch with his feelings" nor do I think it would make him vulnerable to being abused. In fact I think a clear idea of appropriate social expectations is probably a good thing.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Bluegoat

[Spy Car]

You know, I don't want to touch the other 'stuff' on this thread. We can make a monster out of any old sweet person talking to our kids at the library. I am not even going to that sad place.

 

However.

 

I admit, it bugged the crud out of me when one of my children wouldn't allow a kiss or hug from an awesome and loving grandparent.

 

I knew all the stuff about not forcing children to kiss nasty uncles etc., but my MIL, the saint? That pissed me off to no end, and I usually don't care about that carp. My MIL did everything with joy for my kids. She was a *really* old lady who made cakes and breads, with arthritic hands, for her grandchildren She demanded nothing in return. Not even a hug or a peck on the cheek.

 

The kid who sometimes wouldn't allow a quick hug sure ate up her goodies. Certainly a child has a right to their own body, but seriously? My MIL adored the kid, and it made me upset seeing such a snub. I absolutely did sometimes bring the child to grandmother to be hugged, although my MIL told me not to worry about it. DC now oftens talks about how much dc loved the grandmother, and does not remember not being hugged, or not wanting to be hugged.

 

Child is perfectly fine and normal today, even if grandmother got in an occasional hug.

 

I'm with you.

 

I know I'm beyond grateful that my son was naturally warm, loving, and affectionate with my mother-in-law. She lived for those moments and would beam when he gave her a hug. We lost her suddenly, a year ago—nearly to the week—way before her time. I'm just grateful for the joy her grandson gave her in her final time.

 

Bill

Edited September 25, 2012 by Spy Car

[LibraryLover]

I'm with you.

 

I know I'm beyond grateful that my sn was naturally warm, loving, and affectionate with my mother-in-law. She lived for those moments and would beam when he gave her a hug. We lost her suddenly, a year ago—nearly to the week—way before her time. I'm just grateful for the joy her grandson gave her in her final time.

 

Bill

 

 

The funny thing is that my child who didn't 'want' to hug, has very fond memories. DC loves the photos of child sitting, hugging, laughing etc with grandmother. Some hang in dc's room.

 

DC has few visual memories, but recalls with great fondness the loving and accepting emotions associated with gm. Not to mention, dc truly treasures those few photos.

Edited September 25, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Joker]

My children are loving and affectionate despite me allowing them to decide if they would give hugs when young. ;)

 

I don't ever want them to think that just because someone is nice, says they love them, makes them treats, or does things for them that they must show physical affection.

 

My youngest is the only one who ever refused, and she just really didn't like women when she was younger. She gravitated toward the loud men in the family, but didn't want to be close to the women. I'm glad I have a family that didn't push her. She's now very close to her grandmas and has zero problem giving them hugs and affection. It really wasn't a big deal, and I don't get why it is for some.

[Bluegoat]

See, the below procedure would absolutely creep my son out. He needs to be physically repositioned (and I do care, because he won't even come close to learning the basics without the help, so he can play with the other kids). If he was asked every five minutes, "Can I touch you?" he'd run screaming from the class before it was a third over.

 

I'm not really sure how it would help anyway. If people feel obligated to let the coach (or whomever) touch them because that is normal in the situation, won't they also feel obligated to let him do it if he asks first, if it is the normal thing to do?

[LibraryLover]

My children are loving and affectionate despite me allowing them to decide if they would give hugs when young. ;)

 

I don't ever want them to think that just because someone is nice, says they love them, makes them treats, or does things for them that they must show physical affection.

 

My youngest is the only one who ever refused, and she just really didn't like women when she was younger. She gravitated toward the loud men in the family, but didn't want to be close to the women. I'm glad I have a family that didn't push her. She's now very close to her grandmas and has zero problem giving them hugs and affection. It really wasn't a big deal, and I don't get why it is for some.

 

Yes. I have 3 just as you describe. One, not so much. I was the same mother to all. Same gm. My MIL was totally awesome and told me not to worry, it was fine. I was the one who hated that the child would sometimes seem to act 'snotty'. lol Sometimes dc would run up to MIL and leap into her lap, and sometimes child would not give MIL the time of day.

 

DC child is perfectly confident today, and has a fuzzy, but loving association wrt gm.

 

Btw, I wish I had child's level of confidence. ;)

Edited September 25, 2012 by LibraryLover

[staceyobu]

I think instead of using "grandma" as the example, we should use "uncle" and see if that changes anyone's opinion.

 

Would you make your child give uncle a kiss?

 

Because, statistically, grandma is not an issue.

Edited September 25, 2012 by staceyobu

[LibraryLover]

I think instead of using "grandma" as the example, we should use "uncle" and see if that changes anyone's opinion.

 

Would you make your child give uncle a kiss?

 

 

I never made a child kiss or hug anyone. I did hold one of my children in my arms, so gm could give dc a quick peck on head or a fast pat or hug.

 

When I think dc's uncles, I would feel 100% safe. I wouldn't force a child to kiss or hug, but I might hold a child in my arms for a dear uncle to kiss child on top of head.

 

I never even pushed my dc into gm's arms, but held the child in close to me so gm could pat or hug child.

 

But 'pushing' a child off on their own, without me, no. Never did that. Not even with saintly grandmother.

[8circles]

That was not an easy read. *shudder*

[Soror]

Yes. In one of the books the author mentions the difference...as a man, the worst you are afraid of on a first date is that the woman will laugh at you. As a woman, the worst you are afraid of on a date is that the man will kill or rape you. That is the flat out truth, and if you don't live that, you won't get it.

 

I never feared a guy will kill me. However, I know both dh and I fear of sexual situations with our daughter on dates. Does your husband not fear the same? To me it is pretty universally known that most normal men do fear that for their daughters, because they themselves have been around those jerk guys and know that sometimes those things happen. Out here it is a well understood thought that dads are much more protective then moms because of that reason.

[fairfarmhand]

I agree. We take far too much touching for granted in these kinds of situations. Just like the girls' basketball team at a school district one county north of here. Coach hugging on the girls, slapping them on the shoulders, an occasional "PAT ON THE BUTT" which still didn't send up alarm signals because this is all "normal" in sports, etc. Turned out the guy had cameras set up in the locker room and filming the girls. Sicko!

 

I'd love to here the European perspective on this. Is there so much acceptance of coaches and what not touching children without asking? Is that the norm?

 

It's a useful discussion...what is the acceptable boundary line? When is it okay and our children should learn to handle it well and when has the line of inappropriate been crossed? I know that I was NEVER comfortable with my female PE teacher swatting us on the rear, you know that slap of "good job" during the time-out or whatever. I hated her for it. As an 8th grader, was I really supposed to put up with that? It felt soooo degrading. I mentioned it to my mom once and she told me to suck it up and not be disrespectful. However, I believe it was disrespectful of the coach to be swatting my rear without my express permission.

 

I'd like to hear more perspectives on this topic. I'm sure that some activities have more of a need for "touching" as part of instructing. I know I NEVER needed to touch my regular piano students as a teacher, though sometimes my special needs kids did have to have me do some positioning with them for their music therapy...but, not only did I make parents stay in the room but I always said, "Okay, Billy...I need to do this for you in order to help you do this. I'm going to touch you know...very gently. Thank you." I tried to make it somewhat clinical and empowering for them - ie. "this person needs to touch me but it will be an okay kind of touch and only to help me do this and then it will be over" kind of thing. I would imagine something like ballet might require more physical interaction with the instructor.

 

Faith

 

My dd is in gymnastics with a male instructor. Sometimes they need to be touched to have the form corrected. 1. Parents are encouraged to stay and watch. Nothing happens behind closed doors. 2. The instructor's wife will not leave the gym with her husband teaching if other parents are not present.

 

See, the below procedure would absolutely creep my son out. He needs to be physically repositioned (and I do care, because he won't even come close to learning the basics without the help, so he can play with the other kids). If he was asked every five minutes, "Can I touch you?" he'd run screaming from the class before it was a third over.

 

I also shudder when I see school districts implementing rules along the lines of "You must request permission before any physical contact with another student." Really? Are we losing that much of our humanity? Physical contact with other humans is pretty much wired into us unless we have suffered a trauma, and is the norm. Getting away from that kind of abnormal indoctrination is one of the reasons I am glad we homeschool.

I've been tempted to make this rule WRT my children. The poking pestering wrestling and ticking makes me INSANE!

:iagree:

 

An adult who can't allow a child to make a decision about whether they want to hug or kiss someone has issues. There's nothing cruel about raising a child to know that you respect their feelings.

:iagree:

[Meriwether]

I'm with you.

 

I know I'm beyond grateful that my son was naturally warm, loving, and affectionate with my mother-in-law. She lived for those moments and would beam when he gave her a hug. We lost her suddenly, a year ago—nearly to the week—way before her time. I'm just grateful for the joy her grandson gave her in her final time.

 

Bill

 

 

I can see why you feel strongly about this. I'm sorry for your loss.