Mormons are doing something right; what is it?

[Skadi]

I don't know. The Mormons I've known haven't shown very much kindness towards gay people or polygamists. I remember one Mormon I talked to years ago who, after asking about my beliefs and learning that I was an atheist, condescendingly said, "I'm so sorry. Your life must be really sad."

 

I saw two studies recently. One showed that atheists were the least trusted/liked of all groups in America—more than Muslims, to my surprise. The other study showed that atheists are the most likely to help people. I'll try to find that one...here it is. does anyone know if there have been any studies showing Mormons to be more moral, etc.? I only bring up the atheist study to point out how rare it is for people to say, "Wow, atheists sure are doing something right!" and to highlight the fact that we can rely on something more than (good or bad) anecdotes to assess groups of people!

[BugsMama]

I don't know. The Mormons I've known haven't shown very much kindness towards gay people or polygamists. I remember one Mormon I talked to years ago who, after asking about my beliefs and learning that I was an atheist, condescendingly said, "I'm so sorry. Your life must be really sad."

 

I saw two studies recently. One showed that atheists were the least trusted/liked of all groups in America—more than Muslims, to my surprise. The other study showed that atheists are the most likely to help people. I'll try to find that one...here it is. does anyone know if there have been any studies showing Mormons to be more moral, etc.? I only bring up the atheist study to point out how rare it is for people to say, "Wow, atheists sure are doing something right!" and to highlight the fact that we can rely on something more than (good or bad) anecdotes to assess groups of people!

 

:iagree:

 

Once a devout, brownie baking, temple going, young women teaching, Mormon turned atheist here. I'm still in my "angry stage" of the grieving process so I won't weigh in. But this.

[sewingmama]

But most faiths emphasize these things. Why then do the Mormons seem to have much more success actually "walking the walk" than Catholics or Protestants or Jews, etc.?

 

Ok I know you have seen this quoted a lot here in threads because I certainly have :tongue_smilie: but Mormons are one of the few religions that believe literally that "faith without works is dead" . Essentially we have to work our way into being saved. Of course we recognise that even with everything we do we won't be saved without "God's grace" but his grace will not save us if we sit around and don't practice what we preach :D

 

Hence - Momon's are spurred to go out and actually live their beliefs a little more thoroughly.

 

Once a devout, brownie baking, temple going, young women teaching, Mormon turned atheist here. I'm still in my "angry stage" of the grieving process so I won't weigh in. But this.

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm not an atheist but I'm in an "angry stage" right now myself. It's lucky no one here has met me or you would not be making such nice comments about Mormons :lol:

[gardenmom5]

Wow this is interesting. The only Mormon people I knew were not very friendly. In fact, I knew one Mormon girl in high school. We wanted to be friends but her mother could not encourage it because I was not Mormon.

 

I have no idea if that is the norm or not. I did not really form an opinion about Mormons because of that, it's just my limited experience.

I'm sorry you had that experience. I've never disallowed my children to play or be friends with someone based upon their religious beliefs. (my son did end a couple friendships when the boys became invovled in drugs and he didn't want to do that.)

 

I have one daughter whose closest friend growing up, and they are still very close, is Korean-catholic. Her two closest friends from college are hindu, and muslim. (she was one of the only mormons at her smaller university.)

Edited August 1, 2012 by gardenmom5

[BugsMama]

:grouphug:

 

I'm not an atheist but I'm in an "angry stage" right now myself. It's lucky no one here has met me or you would not be making such nice comments about Mormons :lol:

 

HAHAHA. Yup. I keep my anger on message boards (meant for that purpose) for the most part. I know and love too many LDS members to ever open my mouth in real life, and still am very much "culturally a mormon". The angry stage comes in waves- I hope yours passes soon! :grouphug:

[Melinda in VT]

HAHAHA. Yup. I keep my anger on message boards (meant for that purpose) for the most part. I know and love too many LDS members to ever open my mouth in real life, and still am very much "culturally a mormon". The angry stage comes in waves- I hope yours passes soon! :grouphug:

 

I was going to PM you some message boards that I found helpful, but it sounds like you've found them. ;)

 

:grouphug:

 

It really does get better.

[BoyOBoy]

 

I saw two studies recently. One showed that atheists were the least trusted/liked of all groups in America—more than Muslims, to my surprise. The other study showed that atheists are the most likely to help people. I'll try to find that one...here it is. does anyone know if there have been any studies showing Mormons to be more moral, etc.? I only bring up the atheist study to point out how rare it is for people to say, "Wow, atheists sure are doing something right!" and to highlight the fact that we can rely on something more than (good or bad) anecdotes to assess groups of people!

 

Of course we rely on more than anecdotes. This thread was intended less as an ASSESSMENT for or against a group of people, but more to suss out how a world wide community has been able to have this (relatively, and yes, anecdotal) consistent positive presence. The reason I began this thread is that I feel this is not as consistent in the Christian church. As I think about raising my children to be godly young men, it is worth looking at other traditions/cultures to see how they implement their values. I disagree vehemently with mormon teachings, as I do with atheist positions, but I believe I can learn from others without compromising on my beliefs.

The atheist community is not an organized one. At least to my knowledge. There is not an atheist church, culture, community ... which is why it makes it harder to ask, "What are atheists doing right?" One is just less likely to observe the good works of an atheist as being a DIRECT result of her beliefs, while LDS members are explicit. There are many wonderful people in all religions and traditions Please don't take my failure to address all of them as insult; it is simply beyond the scope and intent of this thread.

[Catherine]

Same here. He ditched his pregnant wife (who supported him through college, which she did not get to do) and 2 babies for a pretty young woman. Oh my.

[mommaduck]

Same here. He ditched his pregnant wife (who supported him through college, which she did not get to do) and 2 babies for a pretty young woman. Oh my.

:confused: Trying to figure out where this fits in.

[Lisbeth]

Uh, yes there is mandatory service. Church calls can in theory be turned down, but then one gets socially dinged for it. Also, if you're receiving church welfare there are requirements made of you and your time.

 

Service projects can be a lot like... high school projects. Say a group of kids get together and form a prom committee. These people become friends and tend to hang out together. The same can be true with wards or branches in the LDS church - a clique can form. Now, it's up to the people in the group if they are open or exclusionary.

 

One of the hardest lessons for me to learn in the LDS church is that we have the same amount of sin in our church and in our members as any other church.

 

Don't even get me started on how hard it is to be a member of the LDS church and politically liberal :lol:

 

I have no doubt it is hard to be politically liberal and LDS, because many liberal stances run contrary to LDS teachings. We are taught that Lucifer was cast out for wanting the ultimate nanny state. ;) So to speak. I have not had the experience of LDS members committing sin on the level of our downward spiral society. They have the whole works, not just grace philosophy.

[ednkirstin]

I have known many nice Mormons, so I'm not trying to make a rash generalization here about all Mormons. But my experience counters the notion that they're all embracing of others. I moved to a small predominantly Mormon town in Utah when I was 16 years old. My first day of school (public school), I was asked by 5 out of 6 teachers, in front of the entire class, which Ward I belonged to (which is the same as saying which church do you attend?). I was shocked! Before any of the kids could learn anything else about me, it was made known that I was a Christian and not a Mormon. I was completely ostracized my junior and senior years of high school. I didn't get asked to the prom and I had very, very few people who would really even talk to me. Granted, sometimes kids in general can just be mean or unaccepting of the new kid, but I think it was easy for them to leave me out because they didn't need to accept anyone who was different. They had enough people just like themselves.

 

Just for the record, I don't harbor any ill will toward Mormons. Quite the contrary, I have a lot of family who is Mormon. My Dad used to be Mormon, but is a Christian now. As a matter of fact George Reynolds was my great grandfather. I do agree that Mormons do tend to have great family values and can be very loving and kind, but so are a great many Christians I know. Also, there are many foul "jack" Mormons out there, just as there are many who claim to be Christians but certainly don't live like they are.

[TKDmom]

I think that you've either been either very lucky in the people, who happen to be Mormon, that you know or you're just selective in who you spend time with. Yes, there are many good Mormons, just like there are good people in any other group. But this is not universally true of Mormons.

 

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I wanted to jump in and respond. I Totally agree with you. I'm LDS. There are good and .... Not-so-good people in any denomination. There are many instances where we can be cliquish and exclude others. But like pps have mentioned, we're all sinners, and the "us vs. them" mentality is certainly not an ideal that we hold. I'm currently part of an inclusive Baptist homeschool co-op, and some of those women are amazing. I look to them as examples of how to be a better Christian.

 

I think service is a huge factor in helping LDS folks be more Christlike. Along with the LDS culture that imposes expectations that we will serve others. Sometimes those cultural expectations can lead to resentment, but for those who serve willingly, the blessings of service usually outweigh the inconveniences. I think it's John 7:17 that says "If any man do His will, he shall know of thedoctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself". Sometimes doing leads to belief.

 

My dh is currently serving as a bishop (pastor) and I have watched how much he has changed in the last year since he was called. He spends, on average, 20 hours a week serving in his calling. He's developed such a love for the members of our congregation, he has become more generous, he has seen the miracles that God can bring about in people's lives, which has in turn increased his faith. I'm not trying to brag on him, but I want to make the point that that increase of love and faith has spilled over to other areas of his life. He has become a better husband, a better father, and a better member of the community at large. He spends a lot of time away from home, and I've had to pick up the slack, but I don't resent it--he is so much more engaged when he's at home precisely because his time is limited and it has become more valuable to him. I suppose that the blessings of his service have extended to me, and God's grace as helped me to become a better person during what could otherwise be a difficult time of life.

 

I'm currently reading the Blessing of a Skinned Knee by Wendy Mogul, and it's excellent. She's Jewish, and much of her parenting advice stems from her faith. What I've gotten out of it so far is that we can do hard things, and we can expect our kids to do hard things. When we coddle our children and let them believe that they are the center of the universe, they become little monsters. If we can instill in them two ideas--that they are ordinary, mortal creatures that are prone to sin and can't amount to much on their own merits, and that that they are precious, beloved children of God who can do anything with His help--I think we will have gone a long way towards helping them become the kind of people God wants them to be.

Edited August 1, 2012 by bonniebeth4

[jennsmile]

Of course we rely on more than anecdotes. This thread was intended less as an ASSESSMENT for or against a group of people, but more to suss out how a world wide community has been able to have this (relatively, and yes, anecdotal) consistent positive presence. The reason I began this thread is that I feel this is not as consistent in the Christian church. As I think about raising my children to be godly young men, it is worth looking at other traditions/cultures to see how they implement their values. I disagree vehemently with mormon teachings, as I do with atheist positions, but I believe I can learn from others without compromising on my beliefs.

The atheist community is not an organized one. At least to my knowledge. There is not an atheist church, culture, community ... which is why it makes it harder to ask, "What are atheists doing right?" One is just less likely to observe the good works of an atheist as being a DIRECT result of her beliefs, while LDS members are explicit. There are many wonderful people in all religions and traditions Please don't take my failure to address all of them as insult; it is simply beyond the scope and intent of this thread.

 

 

Thank you. Nobody pointed out that our boys are active in Boy Scouts or that there is a Young Women's program. I know that really shaped me as a youth. The materials are all online and free. You could perhaps adapt them as need in training your own children. https://www.lds.org/youth?lang=eng Personal Progress is for the girls and Duty to God is for the boys.

[blondeviolin]

Uh, yes there is mandatory service. Church calls can in theory be turned down, but then one gets socially dinged for it.

 

Callings aren't necessary mandatory, and you CAN turn them down. BUT, there is a lot involved in that.

 

Firstly, Joseph Smith said, "When the Lord commands, do it." For me, that means a calling as well. If God is omniscient, then he would not call me to do something that I can not do.

 

Secondly, we have been taught "Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies." If I turn down that calling I lose the opportunity to grow and be blessed.

 

Thirdly, we are taught to "magnify our callings," which means we shouldn't be doing them halfheartedly. Rather, we should think about it, pray about it, prepare for it, etc. This serves me well in other forms of service. It is easy to apply the same model to other service I perform.

 

And, discussing structure, turning down a calling leaves other people in a lurch. Accepting a calling helps MANY, not just those you are directly called to serve. For example, I am primary president (I guess basically in charge of children's church and cub scouts). It is a BIG calling. I typically commit at least 10 hours a week to this calling physically and a LOT of prayer and thought. Recently, we have had some issues filling callings...especially people turning down callings. When I don't have teachers or cub leaders, I have to take more time to fill that spot (or someone else does), the kids don't get the consistency they deserve, and it's stressful constantly finding someone to sub. I'm actually speaking about this in church in a few weeks because it has become that much of a problem. :(

[Xuzi]

I have no doubt it is hard to be politically liberal and LDS, because many liberal stances run contrary to LDS teachings. We are taught that Lucifer was cast out for wanting the ultimate nanny state. ;) So to speak. I have not had the experience of LDS members committing sin on the level of our downward spiral society. They have the whole works, not just grace philosophy.

 

Do you realize that comments like the bolded are part of what makes it difficult to be liberal LDS? Saying our political beliefs are similar to Lucifer? Really?? I don't feel an ounce of guilt or hesitation or unease about sitting in church (or the Temple) while holding the political philosophies that I do, as I believe they are very much compatible. Please don't tell me (or any other liberal LDS person) that they're not. It does NOT build Zion.

[garddwr]

Ok I know you have seen this quoted a lot here in threads because I certainly have :tongue_smilie: but Mormons are one of the few religions that believe literally that "faith without works is dead" . Essentially we have to work our way into being saved. Of course we recognise that even with everything we do we won't be saved without "God's grace" but his grace will not save us if we sit around and don't practice what we preach :D

 

Hence - Momon's are spurred to go out and actually live their beliefs a little more thoroughly.

 

You know, I don't see it so much as "we work our way into being saved" as that salvation is not a state but a process of becoming. Our purpose is to become more like Christ, more like God, and that is what life is all about. The process of becoming more loving, more spiritually in tune, more filled with faith and hope, is one that involves both our own efforts and our acceptance of Christ's atonement and the purifying power of the Holy Spirit. If, for example, we desire to develop more Christ-like love for our neighbors, we can set out to serve them, and develop greater love for them that way, but we also have access to the promptings of the Spirit and it's power to soften our hearts and fill us literally with God's own love for others. Our own desires and efforts and the power of God through the atonement must work in tandem to change our hearts and our very being. It is not a one-time process but an ongoing life-time and even eternal progression.

 

I love the children's song that says:

 

I'm trying to be like Jesus,

I'm following in his way.

I'm trying to love as He did

In all that I do and say

At times I am tempted to make a wrong choice

But I try to listen as the still, small voice whispers:

Love one another as Jesus loves you

Try to show kindness in all that you do

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought

For these are the things Jesus taught.

As we try to live the way the Lord wants us to live, we are better able to receive the promptings and guidance and refining power of the Spirit, and as we allow the Spirit into our lives to guide and change us, we develop greater desire and ability to live as God would have us live.

 

--Sarah

[Catherine]

I was responding to twoxcell's "one bad seed" remark. Since I know so few Mormons, the actions of that one guy, who certainly must not be representative, loom large in my memory.

[Julie in Austin]

I have no doubt it is hard to be politically liberal and LDS, because many liberal stances run contrary to LDS teachings. We are taught that Lucifer was cast out for wanting the ultimate nanny state. ;) So to speak. I have not had the experience of LDS members committing sin on the level of our downward spiral society. They have the whole works, not just grace philosophy.

 

Ouch.

 

That's pretty ugly and I'm pretty surprised to hear an LDS person say that, when the church is officially politically neutral, officially maintains that positions consonant with the gospel can be found in all political parties, and has gone out of its way recently on more than one occasion to sway members away from extreme right-wing thought. And should I point out that a lot of conservative stances "run contrary to LDS teachings"?

[Bluegoat]

To me that is the key - the cyclic teaching.

:lol:

 

That's not unique to Mormanism though. Most of the Christian Churches taught this way for close to 2000 years and many still do.

[6packofun]

Sure, some of them are "lovely people" and some not. *shrug* It's funny, I ran across this article today: http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/the-mormonizing-of-america

 

In my opinion, the Mormon church family--and all that goes with being in that community--is just so very ingrained. (In this way they remind me a lot of Roman Catholics, actually.) I don't know what their view of service is or who they are actually serving...are they sharing the love of Jesus Christ with people, sharing the gospel as they serve or is it just a part of their way of life the way it is for many who hold no religion at all. I don't know. (We have friends who are not Christians who are extremely kind and generous and somewhat service-oriented, too. What accounts for that? What is the motivation? That is an important aspect, IMO.)

 

Our family serves in many, many different places and we've never run across a Mormon, so I tend to think, only from my experience (which is limited, of course!), that they do very specific *kinds* of service. I don't mean helping one's neighbor...how do you quantify or observe that unless you're very close to several Mormon families or an entire church? Do Mormons have missionaries? I don't even know! LOL :001_huh:

 

The ONE thing that I feel I've noticed on a regular basis is that the people I've found to be Mormons self-identify as just another Christian denomination and/or rarely ever offer the fact that they ARE Mormon. They don't seem to like to advertise their faith and, when it's discussed, they focus on the few things that are similar with mainstream Christianity. (I don't know that "mainstream" is quite the word I'm looking for here, maybe traditional? Biblical? I dunno.)

[DianeW88]

Do you realize that comments like the bolded are part of what makes it difficult to be liberal LDS? Saying our political beliefs are similar to Lucifer? Really?? I don't feel an ounce of guilt or hesitation or unease about sitting in church (or the Temple) while holding the political philosophies that I do, as I believe they are very much compatible. Please don't tell me (or any other liberal LDS person) that they're not. It does NOT build Zion.

 

:iagree: And as you will hear from the pulpit every single November, the church does not sponsor or endorse one political party over another. There is NO official position on politics within our church. You pray and vote your conscience. Period.

[DianeW88]

I think to help the OP, as she wanted to know what particular things seem to make our youth strong in their faith, I would say these things can be made applicable to any faith:

 

1. Daily family devotionals - We pray as a family morning and night. We also read the scriptures together on a daily basis.

 

2. Family Home Evening - Every Monday night we gather as a family for a short lesson on a topic (either a "churchy" topic, such as a lesson on Moses or a sermon of Christ's, or something generic that we see a need for in our family, like a lesson on kindness to our siblings or telling the truth), a game or fun activity, and a treat. Sometimes FHE involves a service project.

 

We had a fun family service project where each child was given $5 and then had to decide how to use it to help someone else. One of my kids went and bought brownie mix and made brownies to take to a neighbor who'd just had foot surgery. One of my other kids chose to make an outright donation to a child who needed a kidney transplant. My other child chose to buy some lemonade mix and (with some additional funds and help from mom and dad) set up a lemonade stand in our neighborhood and donated the profits to a charitable institution.

 

3. Fostering love between family members. Our families are central to our religion, as we believe that we will continue to live as a family unit in eternity. Therefore, it is important to us to love one another and treat one another kindly. From the time our children were little, we did not allow unkind words, fighting, swearing, yelling or other destructive behaviors in our home. It has paid off, now that two of my kids are adults and one is approaching his teen years. My kids love spending time together and do so often, of their own free will. My two oldest have double dates together frequently, and I'm so happy to see that my kids are so close.

 

4. Meaningful activities for youth with goal setting. Our children are encouraged to look to the future and to make plans for a successful life. Education is stressed heavily in the LDS culture. We are always told to have a home full of good books and to read often to our children. Schooling is a high priority and we spend a great deal of time encouraging our children in matters of education. Our church even has a "Perpetual Education Fund", so that members may donate funds to help members in third world countries gain the education they need in order to have a more successful life.

 

Our children have a weekly youth program (in addition to their Sunday classes) where they meet with their leaders and work on their goals, as well as have fun activities. Boys are encouraged to continue in Scouting to the rank of Eagle, and girls have their own program where they work on achieving goals in several areas: Faith, Divine Nature, Individual Worth, Knowledge, Choice and Accountability, Good Works, Integrity and Virtue. Someone else posted the link to the program, so you can see what some of those projects look like, but they can be easily adapted to fit any other faith (or can be made generic enough to fit a non-faith based program).

 

5. A close-knit church family. Ward members are generally very close to each other, because wards are geographically based. So here in Utah, that means my entire neighborhood is my ward. :lol: I love it, because I know all my neighbors so well and we spend a lot of time together outside of church. If that isn't the culture of your church, maybe you could arrange a potluck dinner at your home for several families that you want to get to know better or think you have a lot in common with. The huge support system that LDS members have within their ward is a big reason for why we get so much accomplished. It's hard if you go to church every week and don't really know very many people.

 

And for LDS folks who live outside the "Utah bubble", your ward often is your family, because you don't live near your blood relatives. When we lived in Denver, we relied a whole lot on our ward members. The church also has a program of Visiting Teaching/Home Teaching. Each family in the church is assigned a pair of home teachers (two men) who visit the family each month with a short lesson. It's a chance to see how a family is doing, see if they need anything and how the church might be able to help. In addition, all women 18 and over receive visiting teachers, who do much the same thing (Because what woman wants to tell two middle-aged men about their latest problems with nursing their infant or ask them what they did to increase their milk supply? :lol:)

 

6. Formal religious instruction for youth. Our youth (14-18) all attend Seminary on a daily basis during the school year. For kids who live in Utah, it's "release time seminary" and they leave their school building and cross the parking lot to the seminary building for an hour of religious instruction each day. For kids who don't live in Utah, it means that have to get up when it's still dark outside and get themselves to "early morning seminary", which takes place before school starts. Anytime from 5 - 7 AM each day. Not only does that build character (and prepare you for the lifetime of "crack of dawn" meetings the church loves to hold), but it starts your day off on a spiritual note, which helps remind our kids who they are and what their purpose in life is. Or to sum it up in the words of Sheriff Andy Taylor, we're teaching our kids to "be some-body"! (you have to say it in Andy's accent and drag out the word "somebody" for the full effect :D)

 

Hope that answers your question, OP, with some concrete ideas you can use in your own famiy...if you so choose.

Edited August 1, 2012 by DianeW88

[TKDmom]

You know, I don't see it so much as "we work our way into being saved" as that salvation is not a state but a process of becoming. Our purpose is to become more like Christ, more like God, and that is what life is all about. The process of becoming more loving, more spiritually in tune, more filled with faith and hope, is one that involves both our own efforts and our acceptance of Christ's atonement and the purifying power of the Holy Spirit. If, for example, we desire to develop more Christ-like love for our neighbors, we can set out to serve them, and develop greater love for them that way, but we also have access to the promptings of the Spirit and it's power to soften our hearts and fill us literally with God's own love for others. Our own desires and efforts and the power of God through the atonement must work in tandem to change our hearts and our very being. It is not a one-time process but an ongoing life-time and even eternal progression.

 

Exactly.

 

LDS members tend to think that some "other Christians" (you know the over-generalized stereotypical Christian)--that "they think" they can be saved just by paying lip service to Christ and claiming faith in him. I'm not saying this to be controversial at all--just a statement about some of the pre-conceived notions that are common in LDS congregations. Because of this, I think we tend to swing too far in the other direction--that we need to "earn" salvation or "prove" our faith to Christ. Personally, I think reality is somewhere in the middle, like Sarah said.

 

Throughout my life I have struggled with perfectionism, and feelings of worthlessness because I can't live up to everything I "ought" to do. This is pretty common with LDS women. But I had an epiphany recently. I'm not perfect (duh). I will never be perfect on my own merits. That's the whole point really. Christ's atonement (or grace or whatever word you use) is there for all of us because we can never "earn" salvation. He already loved enough to make that sacrifice, and we don't need to do anything to earn his love. But...we have a responsibility to put forth our own meager efforts to become like Him. Our efforts, combined with His grace help up to become more Christlike. As we become more like Christ, we will enjoy doing the things that Christ taught, and we end up in a virtuous cycle.

 

When we stand before the judgement bar of God, I don't (personally) think he'll be standing there with a checklist of all the good and bad things we did to see if we qualify to be in heaven. I think we'll see God, be in awe of His presence, feel a consciousness of all our guilt, and decide if we can stand to be in His prescence any longer. If we have put forth the effort and faith to become like God, we will rejoice in His presence, in spite of our imperfections. He loves all of his children, and wants all to return to Him. But those who choose to sin and rebel will feel awful in the presence of a perfect being, and flee from him. It reminds me once how dh and I walked into a fancy restaurant in jeans and t-shirts (we didn't realize what type of restaurant it was). As soon as we saw how everyone else was dressed to the 9s, we turned around and walked right back out.

 

I think CS Lewis got it just right when he wrote The Last Battle. Those who knew and loved Aslan walked past him with joy into heaven. Those who had fought against him saw him with horror! and turned away from him into darkness.

 

Christ's atonement/grace work to help us NOW, not in some nebulous future so that we can overcome our temptations, become better people and start to progress towards perfection. This idea is taught from the pulpit in the LDS but it takes some of longer to grasp it. :tongue_smilie:

 

Okay, I'm done sermonizing for the day ;) Hopefully this helps you see some insight into how we tend to think, and how that informs our behavior in day-to-day life.

Edited August 1, 2012 by bonniebeth4

[stripe]

6. Formal religious instruction for youth. Our youth (14-18) all attend Seminary on a daily basis during the school year. .

You know, I think this is really important. I've seen a lot of people, including Jews who do nothing after their bar/bat mitzvah at 13, who are not educated in their faith as adults. They have a simplified (and sometimes erroneous) understanding based on what they remember from religious education in their youth. It also means they have an incomplete understanding of how to deal with adult issues like, say, sexuality or marriage or family responsibilities or employment. So I think providing religious education for teens and adults is pretty important. I myself see a lot of people making things up as they go along, based on pretty weak understandings of religious teachings. Unfortunately they are usually the ones who argue with others.

[LittleIzumi]

Wanna be friends? :D (I live in Utah Valley. Not a lot of liberals around here. :tongue_smilie:)

 

Werd. It's a "pass the bean dip" issue here, lol.

 

I don't know. The Mormons I've known haven't shown very much kindness towards gay people or polygamists. I remember one Mormon I talked to years ago who, after asking about my beliefs and learning that I was an atheist, condescendingly said, "I'm so sorry. Your life must be really sad."

 

I saw two studies recently. One showed that atheists were the least trusted/liked of all groups in America—more than Muslims, to my surprise. The other study showed that atheists are the most likely to help people. I'll try to find that one...here it is. does anyone know if there have been any studies showing Mormons to be more moral, etc.? I only bring up the atheist study to point out how rare it is for people to say, "Wow, atheists sure are doing something right!" and to highlight the fact that we can rely on something more than (good or bad) anecdotes to assess groups of people!

 

There was a study about "religiosity" and likelihood of remaining in the faith and of giving, and Mormons scored very well in that. American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us. :grouphug: on that comment though. That's ridiculous.

 

Do you realize that comments like the bolded are part of what makes it difficult to be liberal LDS? Saying our political beliefs are similar to Lucifer? Really?? I don't feel an ounce of guilt or hesitation or unease about sitting in church (or the Temple) while holding the political philosophies that I do, as I believe they are very much compatible. Please don't tell me (or any other liberal LDS person) that they're not. It does NOT build Zion.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Lucifer also didn't want any of us to have free will and liberals are very much about personal choice. There are General Authorities who are registered, active, and running Democrats. for example, the late President James E. Faust, who was a Democratic member of the US Legistlature and an appointee to the Lawyers Committee on Civil Rights and Racial Unrest. There was a "public statement" article in the Salt Lake Tribune given by a General Authority titled "GOP Dominance Troubles Church" here: http://www.utahcountydems.com/content/view/178

And I quote from it, "Any notion that it is impossible to be a Democrat and a good Mormon is wrongheaded and should be "obliterated."'

[LittleIzumi]

You know, I think this is really important. I've seen a lot of people, including Jews who do nothing after their bar/bat mitzvah at 13, who are not educated in their faith as adults. They have a simplified (and sometimes erroneous) understanding based on what they remember from religious education in their youth. It also means they have an incomplete understanding of how to deal with adult issues like, say, sexuality or marriage or family responsibilities or employment. So I think providing religious education for teens and adults is pretty important. I myself see a lot of people making things up as they go along, based on pretty weak understandings of religious teachings. Unfortunately they are usually the ones who argue with others.

 

That's true. Once teenagers, the youth are given responsibilities of their own--leadership callings in the youth groups, Priesthood callings, and so forth. And there are the scouts and Personal Progress awards to work towards, and Girls' Camp and Scout camps, etc.

[Melinda in VT]

There was a "public statement" article in the Salt Lake Tribune given by a General Authority titled "GOP Dominance Troubles Church" here: http://www.utahcountydems.com/content/view/178

And I quote from it, "Any notion that it is impossible to be a Democrat and a good Mormon is wrongheaded and should be "obliterated."'

 

Oh, how I wish I could go back in time and show my seminary teacher that quote. :lol:

 

(Disclaimer: my seminary teacher was not responsible in any way for my decision to leave Mormonism.)

[BoyOBoy]

I think it's a sham to try and classify one religious group as "something". People are people, no matter what religion they are. Good, bad, and in between.

I agree, and again, reject the notion that I have said any differently at any point in this discussion. There are no 'good' people. We are all sinners in need of a Savior, incapable of being good by our own power. Nothing I have said in praise of LDS efforts to train their people should be taken as criticism of any other group of people, religious or not. God has given His common grace to humankind, and I could glean edifying elements from almost any tradition, even those diametrically opposed to my own. THAT is my point here. This same thread could be started with any other group: "Jews are doing something right, etc etc etc." It is simply that LDS customs were on my mind.

The Christian church does encourage these things previous LDS posters have mentioned, and service, lovingkindness, grace, service, generosity, and so forth are certainly not limited to those of religious bent. My eye has simply been toward the LDS church because they have institutionalized the application of them, worldwide. Their are benefits and costs to that approach.

In my family, we read the Bible together daily, work on memorizing catechism and scripture, pray together, seek the Lord's will and guidance in our process of sanctification. We attend church and sunday school, will be sunday school teachers this fall, attend mid-week Bible study, etc etc. But this isn't about what a single family does. If a church wants to be a presence for Christ in the world, there must be an ethos that they are here to serve as Christ did. And a humility that by grace alone are we saved through faith, lest any man should boast.

[MamaSheep]

Thank you so much for this thread. I have no interest in converting to LDS, but I have noticed over and over again, for years, that they really practice what they preach. In particular, I'm struck by how strong their families seem to be. There is a peace and a stability that seems to surround them. I know that they're mere mortals like the rest of us ;), and they have struggles and suffering and sins just like everyone else -- but they stand out, somehow. In my experience this is even more true of LDS homeschoolers. I've always wanted to ask MamaSheep about this... I hope she sees this thread and weighs in.

 

Just finding this and coming in late. I don't know that I have much of anything to add (I know...weird for me, huh...lol). We definitely are very much mere mortals with struggles and suffering and sins and weaknesses and room for growth in a lot of areas. And we have our share of people who struggle in areas that affect other people negatively. I do think that both the teachings of the church and the structure of its organization are helpful in promoting peace and stability for individuals, families, and larger communities (though obviously there is room for improvement on all those levels as well).

 

For example, a teenager that is taught that

 

--(s)he is the literal child of a just, merciful, loving, all-powerful Father, who is temporarily living in a world where (s)he will be tempted to betray that heritage, and that although (s)he will be pulled in that direction and will make mistakes, (s)he ALSO has the strength to resist and the innate potential to grow to be more like the Father, that his/her loving, divine older brother lived, suffered, died, and was resurrected so that they can be forgiven of their mistakes and fulfill the potential God blessed them with, AND that the people around them are the same, whether they know it or not--

 

is likely (though it's certainly not automatic) to make different life decisions than one who is taught that

 

--(s)he is a filthy, despicable sinner, utterly depraved, and completely incapable of choosing good, created in that condition by a distant God whose nature is utterly foreign and entirely unknowable, destined for hell along with the rest of the human race unless you say the sinner's prayer and accept Jesus as your Savior, in which case it doesn't really matter what you do because you are saved.

 

Not that those are the only two choices, obviously. This is just an example to show that I think different teachings can contribute to different mindsets, that can translate into different behavior. And that's one reason I think the teachings of the LDS church contribute in a big way to the differences people see in us.

 

And I agree with others that the organizational structure of the church makes a difference too, on a lot of levels.

 

I think that for me, a lot of the "peace and stability" that is in my life has to do with the presence of God that I feel in my life on a day-to-day basis, and the ongoing guidance I receive from Him through various channels--scripture, the church, personal revelations and inspirations. (This has been particularly instrumental in raising ds, with his non-standard complexities. The "experts" have not been very helpful, but I find that God knows His little son, and nudges his mother in the right directions if she will listen. Not always easy, though.) I find that the better I understand and live by the principles taught in the LDS church, the more I sense that Presence, and the clearer the guidance becomes, and the more I feel that current of "peace and stability" running through both the happy times and the hard ones. I truly do believe that Christ stands as the head of the LDS church, and guides it both institutionally and on an individual level, and however we analyze out the differences, I think they all come back to that. (But I do recognize that others believe differently, and that's okay.)

 

And I hope you know you can always ask me anything. :) I don't promise to have all the answers, and I don't promise that the answers I have will be ones people will like, but you can always ask.

[MamaSheep]

Somebody asked about research, and it brought to mind this recent study someone showed me from the University of Pennsylvania:

 

http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/docs/people/faculty/cnaan_lds_giving.pdf

 

From the last paragraph: "Overall we found that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are the most prosocial members of American society. Regardless of where they live, they are very generous with their time and money. Through a theology of obedience and sacrifice and a strong commitment to tithing and service, Latter-day Saints are model citizens."

 

(I fully grant that this study has its limitations. But it's always nice to hear people say nice things about you. ;) )

[stripe]

This same thread could be started with any other group: "Jews are doing something right, etc etc etc." It is simply that LDS customs were on my mind.

But I think these types of threads are valuable, because they give us an opportunity to learn from others. If Jews are well educated, for example, why? What are they doing well? What can we learn from them? What about Hindus (presumably mostly of Indian ancestry, many immigrants or children of immigrants)?

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-education-by-tradition.pdf

 

I think this was sort of the premise behind the Tiger Mother book -- what good things can we learn from Chinese mothers, although I think for some people it was the opposite.

 

Obviously these statements are pretty broad and not always accurate on the individual level. But if Mormons (overall) are doing something right, one doesn't have to be Mormon to think about how certain behaviors can lead to building the sort of community that one desires, even if it's a bit different.

[LittleIzumi]

But I think these types of threads are valuable, because they give us an opportunity to learn from others. If Jews are well educated, for example, why? What are they doing well? What can we learn from them? What about Hindus (presumably mostly of Indian ancestry, many immigrants or children of immigrants)?

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-education-by-tradition.pdf

 

I think this was sort of the premise behind the Tiger Mother book -- what good things can we learn from Chinese mothers, although I think for some people it was the opposite.

 

Obviously these statements are pretty broad and not always accurate on the individual level. But if Mormons (overall) are doing something right, one doesn't have to be Mormon to think about how certain behaviors can lead to building the sort of community that one desires, even if it's a bit different.

 

:iagree: There's a lot I find fantastic about many Eastern religions' treatment of nature and the world around them, for instance. I'd love to have such a close relationship with everything around me, and it's wonderful to see what I can learn from them to adopt into my own life. Like yoga! :)

[Carrie75]

:iagree: And as you will hear from the pulpit every single November, the church does not sponsor or endorse one political party over another. There is NO official position on politics within our church. You pray and vote your conscience. Period.

 

The church doesn't donate to one candidate over the other? I wasn't aware of that.

[LittleIzumi]

The church doesn't donate to one candidate over the other? I wasn't aware of that.

 

Yup. “The Church’s mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to elect politicians. The Church’s neutrality in matters of party politics applies in all of the many nations in which it is established...encourages members to be responsible citizens, to be actively involved in civic matters in their respective communities and nations, and to vote for whomever they wish.â€

 

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/60440/Politics-Heightens-Interest-in-the-Church.html

[DianeW88]

The church doesn't donate to one candidate over the other? I wasn't aware of that.

 

 

No. The church does not donate, support, endorse, or in any other manner, extend financial aid to any individual candidate or political party. Including the one currently running for President of the United States. In fact, his name has never even been mentioned from the pulpit. Nor the very prominent senator from the other side of aisle.

 

They will speak up for or against causes/laws/bills they feel to be against the teachings of church or damaging to it in some way, such as proposed laws to force all churches to pay income tax, abortion laws, pornography, etc.

 

Of course, individual members are free to donate their money and time to support whichever candidate they like. And we are encouraged to be active in the political process.

[Mom-ninja.]

I'll share my experince living in Salt Lake City as a non-member aka not a mormon.

 

I was frowned upon by many people. There were quite a few classmates (I was in high school) who wouldn't even talk to me unless it was required for class. I was not invited to many activities.

 

I have been not allowed to enter someone's house simply because I was a non-member. This was my friend's parents. They didn't know anything about me except that I wasn't mormon. I kid you not when I say I went to the friend's house with three other girls, and the mom made me wait on the porch. My friend told me later that the parents had a rule about only allowing "worthy people" to enter their house due to influences on the children.

 

"Worthy" is a term used a lot in mormon vocabulary.

 

I was dating a mormon and he wanted to take me to his church sponsored dances, but I was not allowed because I didn't have a temple card that proved me "worthy" (yes, I'm using the exact quote that the bishop said to me). Another bishop did let me in a different dance though so it depends on the person obviously.

 

Let's see then there were my two best friends (they were sisters). Let's just say that they were not mormon, and um, experimented with boys and recreational drugs while I did not. They knew I didn't do the things they did and never tried to persuade me to do so. They did what they did when I wasn't around although I did suggest that they stop. One of them became pregnant. While almost the entire school was cruel to her, I stood by her. I remained her friend. Then they started talking to missionaries. They decided to become mormon. Great. More power to them. They stopped talking to me. We shared a locker and they requested the school to move lockers. I never got a word of explanation. I finally confronted them. They told me they were advised by their bishop to stop all contact with me and focus their time and attention on "worthy" peers. So while I was the one who tried to get them to see they were not making wise choices, I was the one who remained a friend when crisis happened, yet I was the one booted out of friendship because I was not mormon.

 

Another friend of mine had to convince his parents that I was not a "bad girl" as they put it.

 

There were so many people who assumed that I was doing "bad" things because I was not mormon.

 

I went to seminary class with a friend of mine once. The teacher was talking about finding "worthy" partners while dating and marriage. I will never forget what she said. She said, "Think about being in a grocery store. There are many choices. Look at the meat section. There is grade A meat and non grade A meat right next to it. A man who has served a mission is grade A meat. Men who do not are not grade A meat. Why would you chose something besides grade A meat?"

 

Of course not everyone was negative towards me. There were people who were nice. However, it was always made clear that I was on the outside due to not being their religion.

 

Oddly, I was the one who was *not* making unwise choices, I made good grades, etc. and yet I was the one who was looked at with a suspicious eye from both teens and adults.

 

So there ya go. My experience is not all roses. :001_smile:

 

Disclaimer: of course I am not slamming all LDS or the religion. I'm simply telling a few experiences while I lived in Utah, and that experience was that not all mormons are welcoming with open arms.

[justLisa]

 

6. Formal religious instruction for youth. Our youth (14-18) all attend Seminary on a daily basis during the school year. For kids who live in Utah, it's "release time seminary" and they leave their school building and cross the parking lot to the seminary building for an hour of religious instruction each day. For kids who don't live in Utah, it means that have to get up when it's still dark outside and get themselves to "early morning seminary", which takes place before school starts. Anytime from 5 - 7 AM each day. Not only does that build character (and prepare you for the lifetime of "crack of dawn" meetings the church loves to hold), but it starts your day off on a spiritual note, which helps remind our kids who they are and what their purpose in life is. Or to sum it up in the words of Sheriff Andy Taylor, we're teaching our kids to "be some-body"! (you have to say it in Andy's accent and drag out the word "somebody" for the full effect :D)

 

Hope that answers your question, OP, with some concrete ideas you can use in your own famiy...if you so choose.

 

See this is helpful to youth, in general. In HS I lived in an area with a huge Mormon crowd. There was a seminary right across the parking lot from school. The Mormon teens spent a class period before lunch, and then often the lunch hour there. We had open campus, so lots of room for trouble during lunch. I remember a few of the "popular" boys on the baseball team were Mormon and they were always upstanding students.

 

I never really though the girl not allowed to be my friend had anything to do with being Mormon, I think it was just her mother. It was just the only experience I personally had with a Mormon.

[TKDmom]

I'll share my experince living in Salt Lake City as a non-member aka not a mormon.

 

 

I'm speechless. That's....absolutely appalling. I'm so sorry you were treated so poorly. :grouphug:

 

ETA: Many of us who live outside UT (and probably many who live in UT) dislike the "Utah Mormon" culture--which it sounds like you experienced. I didn't want to raise my kids in an area where they were in an LDS majority, and would have had a greater chance to develop the "holier-than-thou" attitude that some people get. It's too easy to become arrogant about your beliefs when you are around so many people who agree with you. I love that I live in an area where I'm forced to associate with people whose values are vastly different from mine. It gives me a chance to learn from them...and it keeps me humble. ;)

Edited August 1, 2012 by bonniebeth4

[BoyOBoy]

Thank you, Stripe, for clearly articulating what I was bumbling my way around. My sentiments, exactly.

But I think these types of threads are valuable, because they give us an opportunity to learn from others. If Jews are well educated, for example, why? What are they doing well? What can we learn from them? What about Hindus (presumably mostly of Indian ancestry, many immigrants or children of immigrants)?

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-education-by-tradition.pdf

 

I think this was sort of the premise behind the Tiger Mother book -- what good things can we learn from Chinese mothers, although I think for some people it was the opposite.

 

Obviously these statements are pretty broad and not always accurate on the individual level. But if Mormons (overall) are doing something right, one doesn't have to be Mormon to think about how certain behaviors can lead to building the sort of community that one desires, even if it's a bit different.

[LittleIzumi]

 

So there ya go. My experience is not all roses. :001_smile:

 

That's horrid!!!!! (There is still room for individuals and even to an extent leaders to not do what's right. BOO.) Seriously?! They wouldn't let you in to the DANCES?? You don't have to show ANYTHING to get into dances. Non-members are supposed to be totally welcome, and I've brought a non-member boyfriend to one, etc, etc. On occasion, wards will have lay bishops who aren't actually following the Bishop's Handbook. Bishops are changed regularly so if there's a problem, it shouldn't stay a problem long-term, but wow. That's just horrible.

 

Grrrrrrrr. I'm going to go be indignant on your behalf for a while. :cursing::cursing::cursing::cursing::cursing::cursing:

 

ETA: I grew up outside of Utah, and my dad didn't want to stay in Utah after college for the same reason--too many of any group together and sometimes people go overboard. I can't even imagine this stuff. It's just awful. I haven't seen any of that now that I'm in Utah, so far.

Edited August 1, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[imagine.more]

I think to help the OP, as she wanted to know what particular things seem to make our youth strong in their faith, I would say these things can be made applicable to any faith:

 

1. Daily family devotionals - We pray as a family morning and night. We also read the scriptures together on a daily basis.

 

2. Family Home Evening - Every Monday night we gather as a family for a short lesson on a topic (either a "churchy" topic, such as a lesson on Moses or a sermon of Christ's, or something generic that we see a need for in our family, like a lesson on kindness to our siblings or telling the truth), a game or fun activity, and a treat. Sometimes FHE involves a service project.

 

We had a fun family service project where each child was given $5 and then had to decide how to use it to help someone else. One of my kids went and bought brownie mix and made brownies to take to a neighbor who'd just had foot surgery. One of my other kids chose to make an outright donation to a child who needed a kidney transplant. My other child chose to buy some lemonade mix and (with some additional funds and help from mom and dad) set up a lemonade stand in our neighborhood and donated the profits to a charitable institution.

 

3. Fostering love between family members. Our families are central to our religion, as we believe that we will continue to live as a family unit in eternity. Therefore, it is important to us to love one another and treat one another kindly. From the time our children were little, we did not allow unkind words, fighting, swearing, yelling or other destructive behaviors in our home. It has paid off, now that two of my kids are adults and one is approaching his teen years. My kids love spending time together and do so often, of their own free will. My two oldest have double dates together frequently, and I'm so happy to see that my kids are so close.

 

4. Meaningful activities for youth with goal setting. Our children are encouraged to look to the future and to make plans for a successful life. Education is stressed heavily in the LDS culture. We are always told to have a home full of good books and to read often to our children. Schooling is a high priority and we spend a great deal of time encouraging our children in matters of education. Our church even has a "Perpetual Education Fund", so that members may donate funds to help members in third world countries gain the education they need in order to have a more successful life.

 

Our children have a weekly youth program (in addition to their Sunday classes) where they meet with their leaders and work on their goals, as well as have fun activities. Boys are encouraged to continue in Scouting to the rank of Eagle, and girls have their own program where they work on achieving goals in several areas: Faith, Divine Nature, Individual Worth, Knowledge, Choice and Accountability, Good Works, Integrity and Virtue. Someone else posted the link to the program, so you can see what some of those projects look like, but they can be easily adapted to fit any other faith (or can be made generic enough to fit a non-faith based program).

 

5. A close-knit church family. Ward members are generally very close to each other, because wards are geographically based. So here in Utah, that means my entire neighborhood is my ward. :lol: I love it, because I know all my neighbors so well and we spend a lot of time together outside of church. If that isn't the culture of your church, maybe you could arrange a potluck dinner at your home for several families that you want to get to know better or think you have a lot in common with. The huge support system that LDS members have within their ward is a big reason for why we get so much accomplished. It's hard if you go to church every week and don't really know very many people.

 

And for LDS folks who live outside the "Utah bubble", your ward often is your family, because you don't live near your blood relatives. When we lived in Denver, we relied a whole lot on our ward members. The church also has a program of Visiting Teaching/Home Teaching. Each family in the church is assigned a pair of home teachers (two men) who visit the family each month with a short lesson. It's a chance to see how a family is doing, see if they need anything and how the church might be able to help. In addition, all women 18 and over receive visiting teachers, who do much the same thing (Because what woman wants to tell two middle-aged men about their latest problems with nursing their infant or ask them what they did to increase their milk supply? :lol:)

 

6. Formal religious instruction for youth. Our youth (14-18) all attend Seminary on a daily basis during the school year. For kids who live in Utah, it's "release time seminary" and they leave their school building and cross the parking lot to the seminary building for an hour of religious instruction each day. For kids who don't live in Utah, it means that have to get up when it's still dark outside and get themselves to "early morning seminary", which takes place before school starts. Anytime from 5 - 7 AM each day. Not only does that build character (and prepare you for the lifetime of "crack of dawn" meetings the church loves to hold), but it starts your day off on a spiritual note, which helps remind our kids who they are and what their purpose in life is. Or to sum it up in the words of Sheriff Andy Taylor, we're teaching our kids to "be some-body"! (you have to say it in Andy's accent and drag out the word "somebody" for the full effect :D)

 

Hope that answers your question, OP, with some concrete ideas you can use in your own famiy...if you so choose.

 

:iagree:

 

I know several LDS now and I think this pretty much sums it up. I've also noticed that they and their children tend to succeed at being service-minded and such and have wondered how to achieve that in my own family. I think it comes down to culture and time. The sheer amount of time spent building up their family and contributing to this common culture is bound to have some good effects generally. When I see Catholic or Protestant families who achieve the same results, it's often through similar methods. Regular fully involved worship, daily prayer and scripture study, explicit teaching of both religious and just general moral concepts, organized community service, developing close-knit relationships in their parish or congregation, and continuing all of that right up through the teenage years so there's a smoother transition into adulthood for the kids.

[garddwr]

I'll share my experince living in Salt Lake City as a non-member aka not a mormon.

 

I was frowned upon by many people. There were quite a few classmates (I was in high school) who wouldn't even talk to me unless it was required for class. I was not invited to many activities.

 

I have been not allowed to enter someone's house simply because I was a non-member. This was my friend's parents. They didn't know anything about me except that I wasn't mormon. I kid you not when I say I went to the friend's house with three other girls, and the mom made me wait on the porch. My friend told me later that the parents had a rule about only allowing "worthy people" to enter their house due to influences on the children.

 

"Worthy" is a term used a lot in mormon vocabulary.

 

I was dating a mormon and he wanted to take me to his church sponsored dances, but I was not allowed because I didn't have a temple card that proved me "worthy" (yes, I'm using the exact quote that the bishop said to me). Another bishop did let me in a different dance though so it depends on the person obviously.

 

Let's see then there were my two best friends (they were sisters). Let's just say that they were not mormon, and um, experimented with boys and recreational drugs while I did not. They knew I didn't do the things they did and never tried to persuade me to do so. They did what they did when I wasn't around although I did suggest that they stop. One of them became pregnant. While almost the entire school was cruel to her, I stood by her. I remained her friend. Then they started talking to missionaries. They decided to become mormon. Great. More power to them. They stopped talking to me. We shared a locker and they requested the school to move lockers. I never got a word of explanation. I finally confronted them. They told me they were advised by their bishop to stop all contact with me and focus their time and attention on "worthy" peers. So while I was the one who tried to get them to see they were not making wise choices, I was the one who remained a friend when crisis happened, yet I was the one booted out of friendship because I was not mormon.

 

Another friend of mine had to convince his parents that I was not a "bad girl" as they put it.

 

There were so many people who assumed that I was doing "bad" things because I was not mormon.

 

I went to seminary class with a friend of mine once. The teacher was talking about finding "worthy" partners while dating and marriage. I will never forget what she said. She said, "Think about being in a grocery store. There are many choices. Look at the meat section. There is grade A meat and non grade A meat right next to it. A man who has served a mission is grade A meat. Men who do not are not grade A meat. Why would you chose something besides grade A meat?"

 

Of course not everyone was negative towards me. There were people who were nice. However, it was always made clear that I was on the outside due to not being their religion.

 

Oddly, I was the one who was *not* making unwise choices, I made good grades, etc. and yet I was the one who was looked at with a suspicious eye from both teens and adults.

 

So there ya go. My experience is not all roses. :001_smile:

 

Disclaimer: of course I am not slamming all LDS or the religion. I'm simply telling a few experiences while I lived in Utah, and that experience was that not all mormons are welcoming with open arms.

 

:grouphug: I'm so sorry you experienced this. When I hear of these types of experiences it seems they usually happen in areas that are predominantly LDS--I think some people who have lived their entire lives almost exclusively among members of their own religion develop a fear of the "other," the unknown. Almost a fear of contamination. It is certainly not a teaching of the church nor does it have any place in the gospel of Jesus Christ--but it is human to feel safe among those who are like us. That characteristic can show up in any group of people--I know I have been excluded numerous times for being the wrong nationality, the wrong religion (especially in certain parts of the country, the fact that I am LDS is enough to make me persona non grata), etc.

Of my best friends growing up, two were very observant Catholic and one was mostly non-observant Russian Orthodox. They were all welcome in my home as I was in theirs. With my own children I am somewhat selective in which people I encourage them to spend time with, but the criteria are related to shared attitudes and values, not specific religion. I would never forbid someone to enter my home just because they did not share my faith.

[Carrie75]

Yup. “The Church’s mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to elect politicians. The Church’s neutrality in matters of party politics applies in all of the many nations in which it is established...encourages members to be responsible citizens, to be actively involved in civic matters in their respective communities and nations, and to vote for whomever they wish.â€

 

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/60440/Politics-Heightens-Interest-in-the-Church.html

 

Good to know! I remember hearing so much about Mormons being encouraged to donate their time and money to back Prop 8, during the last election, I just assumed the chuch was backing it and other political issues, politicians, ect as well.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/17/nation/na-mormons17

I learn something new every day!

[ednkirstin]

6. Formal religious instruction for youth. Our youth (14-18) all attend Seminary on a daily basis during the school year. For kids who live in Utah, it's "release time seminary" and they leave their school building and cross the parking lot to the seminary building for an hour of religious instruction each day.

You have to realize, this "release time" is during public school, not private schooling. It was actually part of their class schedule. My graduation requirements were far less stringent in UT than in CA because they had to accommodate time for kids to have seminary during school time. We tried to get permission to have "release time" for Christians to study the Bible. We weren't participating in seminary, but were very much interested in studying our beliefs (I can recall 3 Christians). We were not allowed to do this, even though a separate building apart from the school was made available to us (supposed separation of church and state). One of the reasons I homeschool is to be able to study our families beliefs with our kids. That doesn't bother me. But when one religion gets preference over another during public school, that's a major problem. The seminary training in UT public schools should be done before or after school just like it's done by other LDS members throughout the nation.

 

Of course not everyone was negative towards me. There were people who were nice. However, it was always made clear that I was on the outside due to not being their religion.

 

Oddly, I was the one who was *not* making unwise choices, I made good grades, etc. and yet I was the one who was looked at with a suspicious eye from both teens and adults.

 

So there ya go. My experience is not all roses. :001_smile:

 

Disclaimer: of course I am not slamming all LDS or the religion. I'm simply telling a few experiences while I lived in Utah, and that experience was that not all mormons are welcoming with open arms.

:iagree:My sentiments and experience exactly. I will also add that even though I'm a Christian, I've had plenty of unpleasant encounters and experiences with other Christians, and unfortunately I've been the offending party more times than I care to admit. My beliefs are not based off of who is "nicer," since I can find plenty of well meaning, nice people in all walks of life. My beliefs stem from what I am convinced is Truth, no matter how well people do or don't represent that Truth.

[DianeW88]

I'll share my experince living in Salt Lake City as a non-member aka not a mormon.

 

I'm indignant for you as well!!!

 

I'm also hoping that this happened awhile ago, as our church leaders have stressed repeatedly that NO ONE is to be alienated or treated any differently just because they are not LDS. Granted, this applies to Utah for the most part.

 

Sigh....the older LDS folks are more set in their ways and have heard too many stories of persecution from their pioneer past to let their guard down. LDS members moved to Utah in the past to isolate themselves and unfortunately that has carried over in some people to the present day. My MIL can be like this more than I care to admit. Of course she and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, so I look at it as a good thing. :lol: In fact, when my dh and I were dating, she was more than a little worried, because I was "a convert". Said in hush-hush tones like I didn't quite measure up somehow to the cradle Mormons. My dh told her that she'd better be on her guard about anything that Brigham Young said then, because he was a convert, too. :lol:

 

The culture has changed here in Utah, and I really hope that you would not find it to be the same way now. Of course, people are idiots everywhere, so you just don't know. But by and large, most Mormons could care less what religion their neighbors are. Honestly, I don't even know what church, if any, some of my immediate neighbors go to, because we don't talk about religion. But our children play together almost every single day.

 

I also know that if you came here and hung out with the LDS WTM ladies, you would have a blast, because none of us give a rat's patootie what faith you belong to. Especially if you bring chocolate. :D Joking...sort of. ;)

[Singingmom]

Just finding this and coming in late. I don't know that I have much of anything to add (I know...weird for me, huh...lol). We definitely are very much mere mortals with struggles and suffering and sins and weaknesses and room for growth in a lot of areas. And we have our share of people who struggle in areas that affect other people negatively. I do think that both the teachings of the church and the structure of its organization are helpful in promoting peace and stability for individuals, families, and larger communities (though obviously there is room for improvement on all those levels as well).

 

For example, a teenager that is taught that

 

--(s)he is the literal child of a just, merciful, loving, all-powerful Father, who is temporarily living in a world where (s)he will be tempted to betray that heritage, and that although (s)he will be pulled in that direction and will make mistakes, (s)he ALSO has the strength to resist and the innate potential to grow to be more like the Father, that his/her loving, divine older brother lived, suffered, died, and was resurrected so that they can be forgiven of their mistakes and fulfill the potential God blessed them with, AND that the people around them are the same, whether they know it or not--

 

is likely (though it's certainly not automatic) to make different life decisions than one who is taught that

 

--(s)he is a filthy, despicable sinner, utterly depraved, and completely incapable of choosing good, created in that condition by a distant God whose nature is utterly foreign and entirely unknowable, destined for hell along with the rest of the human race unless you say the sinner's prayer and accept Jesus as your Savior, in which case it doesn't really matter what you do because you are saved.

 

Mama Sheep, I know this thread is not about Mainstream Christian beliefs, but I just had to stop and respond when I read this. I don't know if this is your understanding of what all or most Protestant Christians believe, but I just wanted to say that the above beliefs do not in any way characterize my understanding of God, the Bible and the plan of salvation. It seems sort of like a twisted characature to me. I know mainstream Christians are very guilty of mischaracterizing Mormon beliefs...and I greatly dislike when I see that happen on either side.

 

Quickly, I just wanted to note that Christians believe that God created mankind good, pure, perfect, and actually in his image! Doesn't get much better than that. Just because we fell into sin doesn't mean that we have lost our worth in the eyes of God. This should inform how we look at all mankind, whether Christian or not...we are all created in His image and are of unimaginable worth. The fact that God came in the flesh and suffered and died for us to redeem us back from the grasp of evil shows how much worth He has placed upon us all.

 

God is supremely knowable! He is very involved in the affairs of mankind, and he desires friendship with us. This was the very reason He created us. He is not distant, and in fact, His nature is revealed to all mankind through even His creation ( Romans 1) . I believe that just as God communicated with people in Bible times, He communicates with people today. He remains the same.

 

Finally, I do not believe that the "sinner's prayer" is any sort of magic or necessary formula to follow to come into a relationship with Christ. The Bible is clear that it is a matter of inward faith/ trust in Christ, and then an. Open confession of that faith that is imperative. The thief on the cross simply said " Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner" . Jesus told Him that he would be with Him that day in Paradise. Oh, and also, of course it matters what a person does! The fruit of the life tells the story! The fruit, good or bad, will show whether one's professed faith is real or not.

 

 

Also just wanted to say that I do love Mormon people, and so much about the culture and values. I have had Mormon

friends all my life. I think there is much to be learned from the organization and culture your church has produced.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Singingmom

[Pixie]

I'll share my experince living in Salt Lake City as a non-member aka not a mormon.

 

I was frowned upon by many people. There were quite a few classmates (I was in high school) who wouldn't even talk to me unless it was required for class. I was not invited to many activities.

 

I have been not allowed to enter someone's house simply because I was a non-member. This was my friend's parents. They didn't know anything about me except that I wasn't mormon. I kid you not when I say I went to the friend's house with three other girls, and the mom made me wait on the porch. My friend told me later that the parents had a rule about only allowing "worthy people" to enter their house due to influences on the children.

 

"Worthy" is a term used a lot in mormon vocabulary.

 

I was dating a mormon and he wanted to take me to his church sponsored dances, but I was not allowed because I didn't have a temple card that proved me "worthy" (yes, I'm using the exact quote that the bishop said to me). Another bishop did let me in a different dance though so it depends on the person obviously.

 

Let's see then there were my two best friends (they were sisters). Let's just say that they were not mormon, and um, experimented with boys and recreational drugs while I did not. They knew I didn't do the things they did and never tried to persuade me to do so. They did what they did when I wasn't around although I did suggest that they stop. One of them became pregnant. While almost the entire school was cruel to her, I stood by her. I remained her friend. Then they started talking to missionaries. They decided to become mormon. Great. More power to them. They stopped talking to me. We shared a locker and they requested the school to move lockers. I never got a word of explanation. I finally confronted them. They told me they were advised by their bishop to stop all contact with me and focus their time and attention on "worthy" peers. So while I was the one who tried to get them to see they were not making wise choices, I was the one who remained a friend when crisis happened, yet I was the one booted out of friendship because I was not mormon.

 

Another friend of mine had to convince his parents that I was not a "bad girl" as they put it.

 

There were so many people who assumed that I was doing "bad" things because I was not mormon.

 

I went to seminary class with a friend of mine once. The teacher was talking about finding "worthy" partners while dating and marriage. I will never forget what she said. She said, "Think about being in a grocery store. There are many choices. Look at the meat section. There is grade A meat and non grade A meat right next to it. A man who has served a mission is grade A meat. Men who do not are not grade A meat. Why would you chose something besides grade A meat?"

 

Of course not everyone was negative towards me. There were people who were nice. However, it was always made clear that I was on the outside due to not being their religion.

 

Oddly, I was the one who was *not* making unwise choices, I made good grades, etc. and yet I was the one who was looked at with a suspicious eye from both teens and adults.

 

So there ya go. My experience is not all roses. :001_smile:

 

Disclaimer: of course I am not slamming all LDS or the religion. I'm simply telling a few experiences while I lived in Utah, and that experience was that not all mormons are welcoming with open arms.

 

 

I am sorry to read about your experience. I don't know if people are more accepting now or if we lucked out. We live in Utah valley as non-LDS and my kids have not experienced any issues. They have made plenty of friends, pretty much all of them are LDS (my oldest has 1 friend who isn't). Religion (or lack thereof as far as I am concerned) has not been an issue at all. My oldest attends Young Women with her best friend (the same way she attended wednesday night programs at a baptist church with another friend before we moved here) and really enjoys it. She also went to girls' camp in June.

[Anne in CA]

I am glad that some people added balance by stating their own experiences of living in Utah as a non LDS member. Those were my own childhood experiences with Mormonism too. The Mormons I knew in eastern Oregon as a child were legalistic and cold to outsiders. That is putting it kindly. Their behavior was such that Mormonism was not at ALL appealing to any outsiders. My brother dated a foreign exchange student who was treated so horribly by Mormons in Idaho that she always qualifies that Mormons are not Christians whenever speaking of them.

 

When I met my husband and found out his father and half siblings were LDS I made it a point to avoid them as much as possible. However my husband's sisters are actually very nice, and I enjoy them now. I could never believe in Mormonism based on what I experienced as a child, but I do not view all Mormons as harshly as I used to.

[garddwr]

You have to realize, this "release time" is during public school, not private schooling. It was actually part of their class schedule. My graduation requirements were far less stringent in UT than in CA because they had to accommodate time for kids to have seminary during school time. We tried to get permission to have "release time" for Christians to study the Bible. We weren't participating in seminary, but were very much interested in studying our beliefs (I can recall 3 Christians). We were not allowed to do this, even though a separate building apart from the school was made available to us (supposed separation of church and state). One of the reasons I homeschool is to be able to study our families beliefs with our kids. That doesn't bother me. But when one religion gets preference over another during public school, that's a major problem. The seminary training in UT public schools should be done before or after school just like it's done by other LDS members throughout the nation.

 

Released time for religious education is not unique to Utah, nor is it limited to LDS students. The requirements in Utah include that classes be organized by a legally established church, that parental permission be given for students to attend these classes, and that the classes themselves and their teachers are not associated with the public schools. While LDS seminaries make up the majority of the released time programs in Utah, other denominations are increasingly taking advantage of the law.

 

From your account it isn't clear if you and your friends were trying to attend a class organized by a church or if you were trying to set up your own independent study group. I think the two situations would be treated differently, but I'm not an expert on the laws.

 

Here's an article about released time religious instruction programs in Utah and other states.

[mommaduck]

Released time for religious education is not unique to Utah, nor is it limited to LDS students. The requirements in Utah include that classes be organized by a legally established church, that parental permission be given for students to attend these classes, and that the classes themselves and their teachers are not associated with the public schools. While LDS seminaries make up the majority of the released time programs in Utah, other denominations are increasingly taking advantage of the law.

 

From your account it isn't clear if you and your friends were trying to attend a class organized by a church or if you were trying to set up your own independent study group. I think the two situations would be treated differently, but I'm not an expert on the laws.

 

Here's an article about released time religious instruction programs in Utah and other states.

I believe there was something similar in a southern state (Virginia?). I remember there was much controversy around it (complaints).