About education:

[creekland]

I've been pondering the differing views of higher education that we've had on multiple threads. They are the same views I see with ps parents, so, in this case, I don't feel we homeschoolers (or afterschoolers) are unusual.

 

I'm beginning to think the difference might be in where we (individuals) feel a "basic" or "usual" formal education should "end." (Yes, we all keep learning until we die - that's not the point.)

 

My grandmother had to drop out of school after 4th grade. Many of her peers stopped at 8th grade. Now, in the US, kids are "supposed" to go through 12th grade. Some of us more or less insist our kids go to college.

 

What is your personal belief as to where a "formal" education should end (formal meaning someone teaches, others learn, and some sort of "completion" can be done)?

 

Naturally, this assumes no mental difficulties with academics. (I'm well aware that many can't reach ideal - even if the ideal were really low - due to physical aspects of learning.) This also doesn't mean EVERYONE will reach "your" ideal even if they were capable. It's just an "in your mind" what would be ideal?

 

The intent? Pure curiosity to see where the Hive stands. This should be a private poll - no one will know how you voted.

 

I apologize in advance to those who think my categories are flawed... ;);)

Edited July 29, 2012 by creekland

[creekland]

I voted 2 year degree (can include trade schools). I think pretty much everyone ought to go higher than just what is offered in K-12 - they need to specialize somewhere - and perhaps, age a little more for some "life" lessons. I, personally, want my guys to go to 4 year schools, but I absolutely know not all are cut out for that, hence, my ideal is a little lower.

 

That's just my two cents and what I advise most kids I come across...

[Lolly]

Actually, your question and your categories do not match at all. The categories are for REQUIRED, the question pertains to SHOULD END. To me, those are totally different things. I believe that no education level should be required. If it must be required, it needs to be by age, not by level. I believe the should end to be so varying as to the individual that I would find that to be impossible to answer. If pressed to give an answer, for the average individual probably either 12th grade or 4 yr degree. Actually, given what average is, that would most likely be 12th. However, the way you have phrased the question making it be totally a teacher led type of experience, I might have to answer as none once again.:D

[AdventureMoms]

I voted 2 year degree, but I have a caveat - ideally, I think students should have the option to do that instead of their last 2 years of high school. My brother was floundering in highschool big time until he took a trade-school route his Jr year. It really turned him around. I don't think he would have made it to the end of highschool in order to get into a 2 year college if it hadn't been for that program. By 16, he needed something more specific and less generalized academically.

 

I would prefer that my kids get a BS/BA at least. I could be convinced of other options though.

 

And another caveat, after Lolly's post - I don't think a 2 year degree should be REQUIRED either. I do think that it should be a standard of sorts to shoot for.

[SKL]

I voted 12 years, but then I thought, maybe 10 years would be more like it. But there should be jobs or full-time volunteer opportunities for youngsters who leave after 10 years.

 

I don't like the fact that for some kids (many in some areas), school is largely a babysitting service in the latter years. I also think that if they needed to compress 12 years of basic ed into 10 years, they could do it pretty easily. And then those older teens who actually have a reason to be in class could learn in peace.

 

Of course for some people the ideal is longer, but there are always going to be people whose career is, e.g., house cleaning. At some point it is best to just get down to working.

[Meriwether]

I'll have to think about this some more, but off the top of my head, I'd say that thru 12th should include trade school for those interested.

 

ETA: Looks like others were typing while I was thinking.;)

[creekland]

Actually, your question and your categories do not match at all. The categories are for REQUIRED, the question pertains to SHOULD END. To me, those are totally different things. I believe that no education level should be required. If it must be required, it needs to be by age, not by level. I believe the should end to be so varying as to the individual that I would find that to be impossible to answer. If pressed to give an answer, for the average individual probably either 12th grade or 4 yr degree. Actually, given what average is, that would most likely be 12th. However, the way you have phrased the question making it be totally a teacher led type of experience, I might have to answer as none once again.:D

 

Sorry, I'm not getting what you are saying. As things are in the US now, kids are supposed to (more or less required) to attend until 12th grade, though there is a way to drop out at a certain age, so some never get there.

 

My question is wondering if people internally believe this should stay the same or shift, and if shifting, which way.

 

I'm ok with people saying the ages can shift - it's the level of education I'm interested in - not whether kids complete one grade per year. If students start a 2 year school in 10th grade (or whenever) that's fine.

[DawnM]

I think 8th grade used to cover more than it does now and was far more equivalent to a 12th grade education than it is now.

 

HOWEVER, those students used to have jobs to go to after 8th grade.....farms, homesteading, apprenticeships, etc...

 

The last thing I would want is 14-18 year olds running around with nothing to do all day because high school wasn't required.

[Dmmetler]

I tend to believe that education should be available-but not required past a reasonable level of basic competence. I taught in public schools too long to believe that mandatory attendance=mandatory learning, and I've now homeschooled too long to believe that learning requires a specific situation.If it weren't that I've seen some pretty poor excuses for parents, I'd believe that no mandatory education should be required, but I've seen too many kids form whom the fact that the law made it easier to send them than to keep them home was the only reason they got any opportunities at all.

[Lolly]

Sorry, I'm not getting what you are saying. As things are in the US now, kids are supposed to (more or less required) to attend until 12th grade, though there is a way to drop out at a certain age, so some never get there.

 

My question is wondering if people internally believe this should stay the same or shift, and if shifting, which way.

 

I'm ok with people saying the ages can shift - it's the level of education I'm interested in - not whether kids complete one grade per year. If students start a 2 year school in 10th grade (or whenever) that's fine.

 

Not true. Compulsory education age varies by state. Many, many states (majority? haven't done the math) have the upper age of 16 as required attendance. That is definitely not 12th grade for most students; most students will turn 16 during the 10th grade. There is a huge difference in education being required and what is expected or even what is the norm. THe difference in using the word "required" or "should" completely make it two totally separate questions.

 

Okay, I counted, it is the majority of states having 16 as the top age for compulsory attendence.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Lolly

[shinyhappypeople]

I've been disussing this with DH this weekend. We share the opinion that high school (esp. public high school) is a waste of time.

 

I voted "8th grade" but really it's an age/skills issue: closer to 14/15 years old and have completed math through algebra 1 / geometry, be able to read fluently, be able to produce a reasonably well-written essay and have a decent grasp of world and US history. (ETA: many kids will have achieved these goals - except for geometry - by 13/14, which is why I voted "8th grade". Also, the algebra/geometry goal is my personal standard for my own kids. I know this is sacrilegious to propose, but giving kids a truly comprehensive, solid grasp of arithmetic and consumer math is plenty for most. It's certainly more than many high school graduates have - even those who have taken algebra.)

 

DH and I think that after about 14/15 or so (depending on the child, could be earlier depending on whether the minimum goals are met) kids should be able to self-direct (basically "unschool"). Our kids might choose to either work for others or start a business, complete a traditional high school course of study, do community college, apprenticeship, self-study, trade school, spend significant time volunteering or some combination of those.

 

(note: playing WoW for hours on end without contributing to the household or society is NOT an option :tongue_smilie:)

Edited July 29, 2012 by shinyhappypeople

[enviromommy]

Part of the problem here is how you define "an 8th grade education" or "a high school education". What used to be called having "only an 8th grade education" was MUCH more rigorous than what is now taught in most high schools. I remember recently seeing a document that showed what was included in an 8th grade education about 100 years ago - was it on this board? I can't remember.

 

Similarly, I think a truly excellent high school education, resulting in good thinking skills and writing skills, ability to read sophisticated material, do math through at least Algebra 2, scientific literacy, and including a solid foundation in American history and government, would be sufficient for good citizenship and ability to function in most workplaces. Today's high schools are not doing that, and a 2-year college program becomes necessary to remediate the reading, writing and arithmetic problems created earlier.

 

As I result, I'm not sure how to vote!

[Tarreymere]

I agree with the previous posters, in that a better question would be what exactly would constitute a 'basic' level of education. Not an education measured in how old the student is on completion or how many years the student has studied, but a basic education spelled out in terms of exactly what content and what skills must be mastered to function as an independent adult in our society.

[Element]

This is a really tricky question, OP. You definitely made me think.

 

I voted 8th grade because junior college was just a repeat of high school for me. I think everyone should attend at least junior college, but it seems like such a waste to do both.

 

I think 8th grade used to cover more than it does now and was far more equivalent to a 12th grade education than it is now.

 

HOWEVER, those students used to have jobs to go to after 8th grade.....farms, homesteading, apprenticeships, etc...

 

The last thing I would want is 14-18 year olds running around with nothing to do all day because high school wasn't required.

 

Yeah, I agree with all of this. I guess you can't really take away mandatory high school. I definitely think high school + junior college could be fit into 4 years total. I had all the classes I needed by the end of my junior year of high school, but because of the rules at my school I had to attend for 3.5 years to graduate. That last semester totally threw me off schedule and I would have been far better off just to start cc or uni instead of taking a semester of high school electives.

 

I don't know. Dh & I went to different high schools and we agree that the majority of hs was a giant waste of time for both of us. Once you can handle college material, you should be able to go to college. So I guess I should have selected "2-yr school."

[jujsky]

I voted "other." I think high school should go through 10th grade and the last 2 years should either involve training in a field/a two-year trade degree, or for those inclined to pursue a 4 year-degree, the last two years of "high school" should be the first 2 years of college.

[kalanamak]

Um, for me, for my kids, for the neighbors, for every citizen of the US, for every citizen the world?

[Tabrett]

I voted other.

 

I think high school should go through 10th grade then you graduate. At that age you are old enough to drive and would be able to transport yourself to work. The first two years of junior college/tech school should take the place of the last two years of high school for those wishing to to go college and should be provided free, just like 11th and 12th grades in high school. This way it would only take two years to earn your bachelors and the cost for the degree would be significantly less. Anyone who did not go to junior college immediately after high school should still be allowed to attend two years of junior college/tech school free to earn an associates degree.

 

Maybe this wouldn't be cost effective for the states? I don't know, but if they are spending 8k a year for public school, couldn't that 8k go to junior college or tech school for those two years?

 

Just wishfully thinking.:glare:

[creekland]

Not true. Compulsory education age varies by state. Many, many states (majority? haven't done the math) have the upper age of 16 as required attendance. That is definitely not 12th grade for most students; most students will turn 16 during the 10th grade. There is a huge difference in education being required and what is expected or even what is the norm. THe difference in using the word "required" or "should" completely make it two totally separate questions.

 

Okay, I counted, it is the majority of states having 16 as the top age for compulsory attendence.

 

Actually... in the boldest I put "supposed to (more or less required)" and then even mentioned the part about dropping out at a certain age. We don't disagree. However, that doesn't change the current popular notion that dropping out is "less than ideal" and completion of 12th grade is what is desired for the official degree so many places require (military, businesses, colleges, etc).

 

But, nonetheless, I did apologize in advance for any wording issues. ;)

 

I agree with those who say content is important, but I can't fathom trying to make a poll that includes all of those options. We have to stick more general... at least... when I'm making the poll options we do.

 

I also agree I'd love a world where no requirements were needed at all and everyone grew up with an education, but without requirements a significant number would fall through the cracks unfortunately. Many do now too (esp with poor schools), but that's a different issue.

[Delirium]

I voted 2 year degree, but I have a caveat - ideally, I think students should have the option to do that instead of their last 2 years of high school. My brother was floundering in highschool big time until he took a trade-school route his Jr year. It really turned him around. I don't think he would have made it to the end of highschool in order to get into a 2 year college if it hadn't been for that program. By 16, he needed something more specific and less generalized academically.

 

I would prefer that my kids get a BS/BA at least. I could be convinced of other options though.

 

And another caveat, after Lolly's post - I don't think a 2 year degree should be REQUIRED either. I do think that it should be a standard of sorts to shoot for.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Pamela H in Texas]

I'm thinking that 10th grade for basic education and 11th and 12 being trade, pre-college, or college may make more sense. I think there also should be allowance for certain kids to begin their trade or college time as early as 9th. Maybe my whole plan could move back two years. My fear with that is that there is such a HUGE change in 14-16yr olds. My 17yo is nowhere near the person he was at 14. His goals are not similar. His ability and motivation have both changed significantly.

 

I would like to see it a LOT more individualized than typically high school is. These are not young children anymore and I think that treating them as such has shown to be problematic.

Edited July 29, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[elegantlion]

In theory I'd like to see something like the British system, where you take GCSEs and the last two years of high school would be like A levels, where you focus on fewer subjects with greater depth.

 

I have no experience with that system, so I'm not sure how it works, and I think implementation in this country would be a disaster because we'd need more specialized teachers.

 

I believe it would be better to get the "basic" education done sooner, requiring two more years of guided education with choice of direction.

[EducationX2]

I've been disussing this with DH this weekend. We share the opinion that high school (esp. public high school) is a waste of time.

 

I voted "8th grade" but really it's an age/skills issue: closer to 14/15 years old and have completed math through algebra 1 / geometry, be able to read fluently, be able to produce a reasonably well-written essay and have a decent grasp of world and US history. (ETA: many kids will have achieved these goals - except for geometry - by 13/14, which is why I voted "8th grade". Also, the algebra/geometry goal is my personal standard for my own kids. I know this is sacrilegious to propose, but giving kids a truly comprehensive, solid grasp of arithmetic and consumer math is plenty for most. It's certainly more than many high school graduates have - even those who have taken algebra.)

 

DH and I think that after about 14/15 or so (depending on the child, could be earlier depending on whether the minimum goals are met) kids should be able to self-direct (basically "unschool"). Our kids might choose to either work for others or start a business, complete a traditional high school course of study, do community college, apprenticeship, self-study, trade school, spend significant time volunteering or some combination of those.

 

(note: playing WoW for hours on end without contributing to the household or society is NOT an option :tongue_smilie:)

 

:iagree:

 

In theory I'd like to see something like the British system, where you take GCSEs and the last two years of high school would be like A levels, where you focus on fewer subjects with greater depth.

 

I have no experience with that system, so I'm not sure how it works, and I think implementation in this country would be a disaster because we'd need more specialized teachers.

 

I believe it would be better to get the "basic" education done sooner, requiring two more years of guided education with choice of direction.

 

:iagree:

 

I like what I've read about the European system of tracking in "high school" but from what I've read (and I could be wrong, because to be completely honest, I haven't done too much reading in this topic) once you are one a track, it isn't easy to change. I think a basic education could be finished around 14, and students could be tracked after that into those headed to university, technical careers, military careers, etc. But I think that if something like this were put into place there should be end of year aptitude testing, and options for changing your track. The government shouldn't force anyone to go one way over another, if someone who was originally headed for technical school studied hard and worked hard for a year, I think they should be given a chance to test into university.

 

But I have controversial views on college education. It was never meant to be for everyone, or even for the majority. University was meant to be for the elite. Now that everyone goes, the standards have been lowered and courses of study aren't as tough. I believe that universities should be for the intellectual elite and the few who are willing to work hard to hold their own among that group. A society full of intellectuals does no good, and only produces a society where the people are unwilling to do the jobs they consider "below" them, because they have a college education. In reality, society needs people of all types, and no job is less than another. The man who cleans the toilets in my university is just as worthy of respect as are my professors.

 

(SORRY, sorry, off my soapbox now!! :rant: Education, it's one of my hot buttons. :lol:)

[Bluegoat]

I think 8th grade used to cover more than it does now and was far more equivalent to a 12th grade education than it is now.

 

HOWEVER, those students used to have jobs to go to after 8th grade.....farms, homesteading, apprenticeships, etc...

 

The last thing I would want is 14-18 year olds running around with nothing to do all day because high school wasn't required.

 

I am kind of interested in this idea too. A good serious education (as far as the child is able ) to around 8th grade, with a good bit of free time thrown in until 5th or 6th (a la Finland) and then kids go into a trade apprenticeship, a college to prepare for university, mentored training, family business, or whatever.

 

I'd really like to see a reappearance of options like nursing schools rather than universities.

 

And I'd love to see rally good community level options for adults to continue their education.

[creekland]

FWIW, I like the idea of being able to track students earlier too, and I really see the need for it by teaching in our local high school. The choices do need to be more based upon the content of the grades/degrees more than the age of the student. It's just difficult to define content for a poll.

 

But I still think kids should have at least a 2 year type of degree/certification for a trade or toward academics. What it is can vary widely. I just don't think our K-12 education prepares one for today's world the way it used to. If I were hiring for pretty much any job (aside from pet sitter or something), a high school degree alone wouldn't catch my attention. Additional "something" would.

 

Maybe I'm biased because I see what our local high school puts out behind their degree.

 

It would be REALLY nice if states would allow kids to choose their options after 10th grade (maybe 9th) without feeling like they had to "drop out" of high school like our current system. I agree with the pp who said if the state is going to spend $$ on making kids stay in high school, they could just as easily use the same $$ to help them gain their degree/certification in something they really wanted to pursue (from cooking to college prep).

 

It's been interesting reading ideas - thanks to those who posted (and to all who voted).

[Night Elf]

Having graduated one child from homeschool, I know my feelings changed over time. Before having my oldest dd be an upper classman in high school, I would have said high school alone was good enough. In fact, I was even okay with the idea that a formal diploma was not required. But watching my dd struggle over the past several years has changed my opinion. Being an adult is hard work. Finding a job that allows someone to support themselves is not easy either. My dd was working full time and couldn't afford to be on her own. She probably could have handled a roommate situation but she has never known anyone who could do that. Either the person is in college in another town, or is one of a crowd who all lives in a small apt so they can make ends meet. Therefore, she's been living at home. I've been working hard to get her into the community college and am encouraging her to get a 4-yr degree, perhaps teaching since I know she would make a really good elementary teacher. After struggling so much, she's finally thinking along the same lines but she's not entirely happy about it. But she doesn't want to stay a server at a restaurant forever.

 

But I didn't know how I should vote. Whether to vote according to what I think is good enough for the average person, or my ideal. So I went with the good enough option. I think formal learning should extend at least through 12th grade. Having a high school diploma seems important (not necessarily accredited, but something on paper to show high school was completed satisfactorily.) However, my ideal is at least a trade school education. I think a person working full time should be able to support themselves at the very least. If a person can find a good paying job like that without a college education, I think that is marvelous. I'm just worried it's not easy to find these days. When I graduated high school, I got a clerical job and was able to support myself with one roommate, which happened to be my boyfriend. But we were able to pay all of our bills and be relatively content. Things just seemed to have changed so much.