LONG:End of a co-op and a friendship

[Trish]

Welll, before the problems/complaints even started, I wondered how this co-op could possibly work. All the teens doing pre-algebra? From ages 12-17? No one ready for chemistry because they weren't up to par in math? Incredibly slow pace for science? This might be fixable if we were talking about first and second graders, but teens need to get some serious work done. It's probably a blessing that this co-op is breaking up!

 

I'm sorry it was so hard on the friendships. :grouphug:

[bkpan]

Ya know, this is one of those times when it becomes apparent how inadequate email can be as a form of communication. It is easily misunderstood and sincere, open communication suffers because of it.

 

Think how differently things might have played out if you had gone to her home and with humility and love, tried to persuade her to share her feelings on what happened (without judgement). Even a phone call would have relayed a greater personal concern for your friend. Isn't it uncanny how hurt our feelings can be from the lack of a response to an email? When really, there could be multiple reasons for not responding.

 

BTW, I am not saying that you were in the wrong, just pointing out in hindsight, you MIGHT have had a different outcome with a more personal setting.

 

Your situation does sound complex w/ differing personalities. As a previous poster pointed out, I wonder if she might feel that nothing good would come from discussing the situation with you, or that it would be an opportunity for gossip.

 

Also, I did not get from the OP what your role was in the co- op? You said that not everyone taught I think? So, how did your cooperative function with only some of the moms doing the teaching?

 

Just trying to understand the dynamics of how your group functioned.

[ktgrok]

I disagree. When you treat someone badly, you can't seriously expect them to keep right on "just being there" without dealing with it.

 

I still don't see how she treated the OP badly. She got emotional at co-op, and complained about other people, not the OP being late. HOw is that treating the OP badly?

[Parker Martin]

Maybe she messed up. Maybe you messed up. Maybe she was angry at someone else. Maybe they've even had it out without you. Maybe she's so ashamed at her behavior that she can't bear to speak of it.

 

In any case, oh well. The co-op caused friction. You were friends long before the co-op. She's willing to talk to you about anything in the world, just not the co-op.

 

Is rehashing the co-op drama worth losing this friend over? Maybe it is. But maybe not. If not, were it me, I'd muster up all the grace I could, extend it her way, drop the issue, and resume a happy friendship.

[KungFuPanda]

I guess I just don't see how it's wanting someone to "bend to your will" to discuss a problem in a relationship, rather than pretending that it's all hunky-dory. I also don't see how it is any different than her not wanting to talk about it? In those terms, then she's trying to bend me to her will.

 

I would rather know. I can either explain myself if it's a misunderstanding, or apologize if I've done something wrong. But right now, without knowing, I have no way to know that she won't act crazy the next time something happens that she doesn't like. I can't trust someone like that.

 

Explain to me, please, how it is demanding to want to talk through a problem, but not demanding to refuse to talk through a problem?

 

I think you have to decide if you want this friendship more than you want to have this conversation. Was this a friendship worth having before the co-op situation? Saying she won't discuss a topic isn't a demand for you to 'do' anything. There are millions of other topics if you care to speak with her. It doesn't make sense for this topic to be a deal-breaker in a relationship. YOU are demanding she do something she doesn't want to do. If you are unable to let this go, the friendship probably seems doomed to her. The fact that you WANT to know something doesn't mean she is morally obligated to give you this information.

[Galatea]

I guess I just don't see how it's wanting someone to "bend to your will" to discuss a problem in a relationship, rather than pretending that it's all hunky-dory. I also don't see how it is any different than her not wanting to talk about it? In those terms, then she's trying to bend me to her will.

 

This is the wrong way of looking at relationships. If someone is always the one dictating whether something happens or doesn't, then they might be trying to control you. But if this is the first, or one of the few times that this friend has refused, then it's just her feelings and you're trying to change her.

[TammyS]

Welll, before the problems/complaints even started, I wondered how this co-op could possibly work. All the teens doing pre-algebra? From ages 12-17? No one ready for chemistry because they weren't up to par in math? Incredibly slow pace for science? This might be fixable if we were talking about first and second graders, but teens need to get some serious work done. It's probably a blessing that this co-op is breaking up!

 

I'm sorry it was so hard on the friendships. :grouphug:

 

Yeah, I was shocked by the unpreparedness of a lot of the kids. Two of the kids were chemistry ready (my son, 13, and one of R's sons 15), but the rest (17, 15, 15, 14, 13, and 12) were not. One of the things that had attracted me was that I thought my son would be in the middle or even the bottom of the class, since most of the kids are older (he needs competition and to see that he isn't the only smart person in the world). I was willing to put up with it, in the beginning, because I was still doing our regular academics at home (he was in the pre-algebra class, but also finished Saxon Alg 1 at home at the same time) and because as (essentially) an only child, I wanted him to have a positive experience with other teens, especially the 15 and 17 year old boys.

 

I don't know this for sure, it is speculation: but I think what may have really thrown R for a loop is finding out that her teens weren't nearly as far along as she thought they were. But that's just speculation.

[Catwoman]

FWIW, I think many people are being awfully harsh and judgmental toward TammyS. I'm not sure how she is to blame for any of this, and while many people keep telling her that she needs to be a better friend and be understanding about this woman's refusal to discuss the problem that came between them, my question is this -- if this woman was truly a friend, why shouldn't she be expected to be understanding of Tammy's need to clear the air between them? :confused:

 

I'm not entirely sure why Tammy is somehow being portrayed as the bad guy here, with the friend being the one who deserves all of the kindness and forgiveness. Personally, I think Tammy has already gone out of her way to try to get the friendship back on track, and the other woman has been a jerk about it. I don't view Tammy as trying to control the friendship; I view the other woman as looking for an excuse to end the friendship. The woman is an adult, but she's not capable of handling a polite discussion about what went wrong??? Give me a break. :glare:

 

Tammy, I'm sorry you're going through this, but if I were in your situation, I would write the woman off as a friend unless she came to me and wanted to make things right between us. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[kalanamak]

It sounds a little like you ended the relationship when you said that you had no interest in a relationship with an elephant in the room.

 

If a friend said that to me, I would assume that they wanted to either control me and make me talk a out something I already said I did not want to discuss, or they wanted to break ties completely.

 

 

There are some dust-ups in life that are just best left to die. Not all of us are "talk it all out" people. I'm a "pick up your shovel and get back to digging" people. Sometimes one just reaches the clicking point, the straw that breaks the camels back, etc, and one is just DONE. Or one just doesn't want to say things one will regret. Perhaps even that something nastier than you know went on in emails that you are not privy to.

 

I wouldn't think that person was trying to control me, or break ties, but that they had a different style and that if they *couldn't* drop something that gave me such stomach upset/headache/insomnia, they may not be best person to be friends with.

 

I encourage you to let by gones be by gones and move along. If everything else about this woman is good, I would try very hard to put it behind you.

 

Just a thought from "the other side".

[TammyS]

Ya know, this is one of those times when it becomes apparent how inadequate email can be as a form of communication. It is easily misunderstood and sincere, open communication suffers because of it.

 

Think how differently things might have played out if you had gone to her home and with humility and love, tried to persuade her to share her feelings on what happened (without judgement). Even a phone call would have relayed a greater personal concern for your friend. Isn't it uncanny how hurt our feelings can be from the lack of a response to an email? When really, there could be multiple reasons for not responding.

 

BTW, I am not saying that you were in the wrong, just pointing out in hindsight, you MIGHT have had a different outcome with a more personal setting.

 

Your situation does sound complex w/ differing personalities. As a previous poster pointed out, I wonder if she might feel that nothing good would come from discussing the situation with you, or that it would be an opportunity for gossip.

 

Also, I did not get from the OP what your role was in the co- op? You said that not everyone taught I think? So, how did your cooperative function with only some of the moms doing the teaching?

 

Just trying to understand the dynamics of how your group functioned.

 

In hindsight, I would rather have gone to her personally. Ironically, I didn't because I thought it would give her some space to take her time to think out things, and because I was trying to email her to set up a personal meeting. I would hate to have someone just show up at my door and "corner" me with this, so I didn't want to do it to her, either.

 

I don't think she was worried about gossip. She has for years told me every frustration that she has with other people. I always assumed it was because she knows that I tend to keep my own counsel (which is why I brought it here, because no one would know the players, but I really needed to talk to some other moms) and that she was just venting. But if it were an issue with another person she could just say, "I had a problem, but it wasn't with you, but I can't give you the details." I would be fine with that.

 

The personalities are differing and complex.

 

I tend to be very logical/analytical.

T is very artsy.

J is also very logical but she tends to be some flamboyant in her discussions of things. Don't really know how to explain her.

R we always considered to be Pollyanna. Some what artsy, but also has an English degree.

 

J was teaching the little boys, two of which were R's, while the teens were in science. This was supposed to give R a break from them, as they have slight academic delays, as well as behavioral issues (one, in particular, can be explosive at times).

 

I wasn't teaching at the time, though I was supposed to teach writing over the summer. I was hardly ever there, I would drop my son in the morning and go, since I didn't want to hang out with a toddler.

 

T wasn't teaching at all, co-op was supposed to be a chance for her to go home and get office work done while her son was at co-op, but I hear that she mostly stayed and chatted with R.

 

J really did most of the work. She arranged the building, arranged for the teachers, taught everything to the little boys, and taught the math. She really worked her bottom off on this co-op.

 

Ironically, I didn't even want to be in a co-op, because I've been burned by them before (though never like this). I told my friends I would rather just hire some teachers so that it would be clear what the expectations were, but T and R talked me into doing this because the science teacher (a college professor) was going to be so rigorous.

 

In fairness, I think I could have talked to her, if things hadn't blown up, about the class and made something work. But T was adamantly against saying anything to her, R pretty much followed T's lead, and J wanted this so much for her children that she was willing to do whatever T and R wanted about it.

[bolt.]

Is there any practical reason not to let this unpleasant chapter close, and let bygones be bygones?

 

It sounds like your friend chose to cut her losses in order to avoid getting irrationally worked up over this stuff. Talking to you about it would get her irrationally worked up, and she doesn't want that, so she isn't going to do it. What wrong with her having settled her mind on the issue? Why would she be obligated to put herself through an unpleasant conversation just to please someone else?

[melissel]

Gently, because I have no dog in this fight: Tammy, from what you've posted here, it doesn't sound to me like you're interested in getting a friendship back on track. It sounds like you're primarily interested in demanding answers from this person. These are some clues, IMO, to your real goal in making this reconnection with her:

 

When you treat someone badly, you can't seriously expect them to keep right on "just being there" without dealing with it.

She didn't expect you to keep being there. She dropped out and you called her.

 

No, I don't want to talk about her "feelings" about me. I want to know why she behaved the way that she did.

She's an adult. If I were her, whether I'd behaved badly or not, I would not be interested in being called on the carpet. That's my prerogative.

 

But right now, without knowing, I have no way to know that she won't act crazy the next time something happens that she doesn't like. I can't trust someone like that.

Again, she did not call you, asking you to please include her in your life again. She does not care whether or not you trust her. You called her.

 

As someone said, your demand included the ultimatum that ended the friendship. She is simply asserting herself to meet her own needs. Self-care? Maybe. Selfish? Maybe. But she owes you nothing and is expecting nothing from you except that you respect the boundary she's set. You're expecting her to provide with someone you've decided is necessary for your own peace of mind.

 

I don't think you're the bad guy here. I don't know if she's the bad guy. But you did ask our opinions based on the information you gave us, and the overwhelming opinion is that you're overstepping, and that you can't force her to give you what you want if she doesn't care to.

 

I'm sorry, it does stink. We're involved in a co-op currently, and I can see the potential for disaster. I'd be very sad if things ended the way yours did :( I hope you can find some kind of peace about the whole thing.

[ssavings]

I wonder if she felt judged/criticized? There seemed to have been discussions of the various students "not being ready" or being "unprepared" (which, clearly, need to happen in a co-op, but can be tricky and can lead to hurt feelings if people are over sensitive). If she was already emotional about other issues, maybe she talk of the various students being "unprepared" as an insult to her children/her teaching/something? That might explain the comment about her biology not being rigorous enough for J'd standards.

 

While I know that you didn't judge/criticize her at all, if she felt judged/criticized, she probably wouldn't want to talk about it. Her feelings were hurt, so she doesn't want to revisit it and feel hurt again.

[TammyS]

Is there any practical reason not to let this unpleasant chapter close, and let bygones be bygones?

 

 

 

Because she acted like a crazy person and tore the co-op apart and hurt a lot of people's feelings, all while smiling and saying "it's all good", even though many things were arranged specifically for her (in some ways that was a practical matter, since she had the most kids to accomodate) and changed to make things better for her. Despite all of that, she caused constant stress among the kids (even the science teacher said that the tension the last several weeks was terrible), and made a huge mess, and I don't even know why. So if I don't know why...how on earth am I supposed to trust that she won't do it again down the road? There's the very practical problem of not wanting to walk on eggshells with someone who acts hurt and offended, despite the fact that *they* behaved badly, and won't even tell you why they are hurt and offended. Possibly, I did something to offend her. I deserve the opportunity to apologize and make it right. I don't deserve (especially since it's nothing that I am aware of, so it can't be horrifying) this passive-aggressive "we can talk, but only if we pretend nothing happened" nonsense.

[TammyS]

 

She's an adult. If I were her, whether I'd behaved badly or not, I would not be interested in being called on the carpet. That's my prerogative.

 

<snip> But she owes you nothing

 

I think there is a large difference between calling her on the carpet and what I wanted. I was very clear to her that I wanted to understand *her position*, because I cared. That is not calling someone on the carpet.

 

Also, I think perhaps we have two different idea of friendship. As a Christian I believe that to "admonish the sinner" is a spiritual act of charity. If I have sinned against her, she has a duty to tell me. The bible also says that if you have something against your brother to leave your offering at the altar and go and seek him out.

 

So, yes, I think she does actually have a duty in this. As a Christian, I don't believe relationships are to be picked up and put down at will.

 

I'm not trying to get too theological here, just saying that I don't personally prescribe (and she and I are members of the same church) to the idea of relationships in quite the way that modern society does.

[melissel]

I think there is a large difference between calling her on the carpet and what I wanted. I was very clear to her that I wanted to understand *her position*, because I cared.

 

You may think you were clear in this when you spoke to her, but this is not what many of us are seeing in your posts. Again, this--

 

Because she acted like a crazy person and tore the co-op apart and hurt a lot of people's feelings, all while smiling and saying "it's all good", even though many things were arranged specifically for her (in some ways that was a practical matter, since she had the most kids to accomodate) and changed to make things better for her. Despite all of that, she caused constant stress among the kids (even the science teacher said that the tension the last several weeks was terrible), and made a huge mess, and I don't even know why. So if I don't know why...how on earth am I supposed to trust that she won't do it again down the road? There's the very practical problem of not wanting to walk on eggshells with someone who acts hurt and offended, despite the fact that *they* behaved badly, and won't even tell you why they are hurt and offended. Possibly, I did something to offend her. I deserve the opportunity to apologize and make it right. I don't deserve (especially since it's nothing that I am aware of, so it can't be horrifying) this passive-aggressive "we can talk, but only if we pretend nothing happened" nonsense.

 

--doesn't sound like someone who contacted her because you care about her. It sounds like you care about getting your objectives met. Maybe, while you think you were clear about wanting to connect because you care, she was hearing the undertone that many of us keep saying we are hearing?

[kwg]

I don't understand what you are so upset about? She got upset that everyone wanted to do Biology, and got overemotional (probably because of being over tired or hormones or something totally unrelated), and decided not to do the co-op anymore as it wasn't going to meet her needs. What is so crazy and awful about that? What am I missing? Sure, she could have been less emotional about it, but she is not acting that way now, and I see no reason to make her revisit her sins and confess them to you.

 

What did she do wrong? SHe is not the science teacher right? I may have missed it in the OP so sorry if you pointed it out.

[kalanamak]

Because she acted like a crazy person and tore the co-op apart and hurt a lot of people's feelings, all while smiling and saying "it's all good", even though many things were arranged specifically for her (in some ways that was a practical matter, since she had the most kids to accomodate) and changed to make things better for her. Despite all of that, she caused constant stress among the kids (even the science teacher said that the tension the last several weeks was terrible), and made a huge mess, and I don't even know why. So if I don't know why...how on earth am I supposed to trust that she won't do it again down the road? There's the very practical problem of not wanting to walk on eggshells with someone who acts hurt and offended, despite the fact that *they* behaved badly, and won't even tell you why they are hurt and offended. Possibly, I did something to offend her. I deserve the opportunity to apologize and make it right. I don't deserve (especially since it's nothing that I am aware of, so it can't be horrifying) this passive-aggressive "we can talk, but only if we pretend nothing happened" nonsense.

 

Ah, I didn't understand it this way from your first post. If she has been self-centered, all egg-shelly, and difficult, if she ripped apart the co-op, etc. I would let it go. You're not going to get satisfaction, and no, I wouldn't trust her to never behave badly again. Future behavior is best predicted by past behavior. :grouphug:

[Chelli]

I think there is a large difference between calling her on the carpet and what I wanted. I was very clear to her that I wanted to understand *her position*, because I cared. That is not calling someone on the carpet.

 

Also, I think perhaps we have two different idea of friendship. As a Christian I believe that to "admonish the sinner" is a spiritual act of charity. If I have sinned against her, she has a duty to tell me. The bible also says that if you have something against your brother to leave your offering at the altar and go and seek him out.

 

So, yes, I think she does actually have a duty in this. As a Christian, I don't believe relationships are to be picked up and put down at will.

 

I'm not trying to get too theological here, just saying that I don't personally prescribe (and she and I are members of the same church) to the idea of relationships in quite the way that modern society does.

 

As I said before and will say again...She only has the duty bolded above if YOU (all caps for emphasis not yelling :)) are who she had a problem with. If you are not that person, which I would guess you are not since she is willing to keep her friendship with you, then she has no obligation to tell you anything. At that point, as a Christian, it would become gossip.

 

It is your choice if you continue the friendship, but please keep the above in mind. She might be trying to obey the command not to gossip instead of fulfilling the one you think she should.

 

:grouphug:

[VeritasMama]

No, I don't want to talk about her "feelings" about me. I want to know why she behaved the way that she did.

 

If she did something specific to you that you want an explanation for, then you need to ask, specifically. If you are wondering about her behavior in general, or her behavior towards other people, then you really have no business demanding an explanation.

 

The reason she behaved the way she did probably has a lot to do with her stress level and her feelings, so I think that either way it would be a conversation about her feelings, which she clearly does not want to discuss.

 

I understand where you are coming from, I have a sister who is a lot like you, wants to talk everything out and chase every elephant out of the room. I have another sister who literally does not see any elephants ever and thinks that dropping something means it is finished forever. When they argue, it can be ugly, because their perspectives are so different it is hard for them to find common ground. But, demanding the other person does something they don't feel comfortable doing is never a good idea in a friendhip.

[HSMom2One]

I have let the co-op go. As I said to her, I was not interested in talking her into or out of the co-op.

 

BECAUSE the friendship is important, I wanted to understand how she saw things. She behaved terribly to a group of people who bent over backwards to give her her way in the co-op and tore it apart. I would like to at least understand *why* she behaved this way if I ever have a chance of trusting her again. I need to know that when she says to me "it's all good" that it actually is.

 

This, I believe, would be a Christian response to your situation.

 

I know how frustrated I can get when I need to talk through an issue, but the other party does not. Some of us process feelings by talking them through while others need time to think and have their space. When I was younger I would not give up and would push and push the other person to talk because I didn't know that. Now that I'm much older I see things differently. I'm now aware of the difference between walking in the flesh and walking in the spirit, and those two options are miles and miles apart.

 

I also agree with the other poster that suggested there might be an issue of depression. Sometimes things that are not intentional are going on that affect a person's behavior. It may also be that there are other personal issues that your friend just can't discuss that have had an impact on how she behaved. It could have even been the result of a homeschool mom being more overwhelmed than she's let on. Maybe giving her the benefit of the doubt on this is needed.

 

Did your friend behave badly? Yes. Did her choices hurt others? Yes. Should she have made an effort to communicate better? Definitely. But here's the deal: love overlooks a multitude of sins. If we as Christians are to love God and "love others as ourselves", then we need to extend a lot of grace. A LOT of grace. We all mess up, but the thing that matters is what we do AFTER we mess up. Even if the other person is more in the wrong than we are, we need to respond and act in love. We need to offer the same grace that God offers to us.

 

I know that when I screw up, I want to be extended grace and forgiveness, and I imagine you do to. And when I've messed up badly, I need it more than ever. So as an older mom and grandmother I'm going to suggest that you reach out in love to your friend one more time. Let the issues of the past go and choose to love her whether she does the right thing or not. You never know, at some point in the future it may all open up for discussion in a very natural way. Maybe just take it prayerfully in baby steps and hold no high expectations. Offer love and forgiveness and see where it goes.

 

This relationship is obviously important to you or you would not have written such a long post to share the whole thing with us. You are clearly upset about the breakdown of this relationship. At this point you have a choice: either move on with your life and let it go (and carry the sorrow and grief with you), or humble yourself and reach out to your friend.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Joker]

 

I wasn't teaching at the time, though I was supposed to teach writing over the summer. I was hardly ever there, I would drop my son in the morning and go, since I didn't want to hang out with a toddler.

 

If you were hardly there, who gave you all of the information of the dynamics between all the women?

 

She didn't like what went on there and doesn't wish to discuss. That's her boundary and a friend would respect that. She obviously doesn't wish to hash it out again and maybe has let it go, but you want to bring it out again. You want her to discuss so that you will feel better. Let the friendship go if this episode bothered you so much, but I don't think you should demand that she behave how you want.