WWYD Stay or Go?

[katilac]

I would most definitely NOT attempt that. Even if you could build a warm and structurally sound structure on the cheap, there are far too many negatives and genuine risks to the plan.

 

Roughing it in the extreme cold with little experience goes beyond uncomfortable to dangerous, imo. There are health and safety issues when you don't have running water or septic. What happens if you get seriously ill or injured while dh is at work - where is the nearest neighbor or phone? If it's enough in the woods that you aren't worried about permits and such, I'd be surprised if there's a reliable cell signal.

 

I agree with MSPolly about practicing doing without now. I know you said you have cut costs to the bone already, but if you're still taking showers and using any electricity, you haven't even begun to realize what it's going to be like. If you truly want to consider this, start by acting as if you don't have running water or electricity. Wash your clothes in the bathtub with water you have to haul (at least from the kitchen :D). Use lamps only, no electric lights (and remember that batteries are expensive, so you can't use them all the time). And so on. It's not so much about saving a bit more money, but about getting a tiny taste of what roughing it will be like. Even if you have the water and electricity cut off, it's gonna be WAY nicer than roughing it in a tiny shelter in the woods, in the middle of winter.

[Teachin'Mine]

Just over the winter. By spring we would be ready to start building a house with basement, septic and running water.

 

BTW: No one runs electric heat around here. It is too expensive.

 

If you can build in the spring, I'd stay put until then. In the spring/summer you can tent camp and then move into the basement once that's built. Stay warm and do everything you can to help your arm to heal so you'll be ready for building in the spring.

[JFSinIL]

Reread Laura Ingall Wilder's The Long Winter and talk yourself OUT of it!!!

[Parrothead]

I would most definitely NOT attempt that. Even if you could build a warm and structurally sound structure on the cheap, there are far too many negatives and genuine risks to the plan.

 

Roughing it in the extreme cold with little experience goes beyond uncomfortable to dangerous, imo. There are health and safety issues when you don't have running water or septic. What happens if you get seriously ill or injured while dh is at work - where is the nearest neighbor or phone? If it's enough in the woods that you aren't worried about permits and such, I'd be surprised if there's a reliable cell signal.

 

I agree with MSPolly about practicing doing without now. I know you said you have cut costs to the bone already, but if you're still taking showers and using any electricity, you haven't even begun to realize what it's going to be like. If you truly want to consider this, start by acting as if you don't have running water or electricity. Wash your clothes in the bathtub with water you have to haul (at least from the kitchen :D). Use lamps only, no electric lights (and remember that batteries are expensive, so you can't use them all the time). And so on. It's not so much about saving a bit more money, but about getting a tiny taste of what roughing it will be like. Even if you have the water and electricity cut off, it's gonna be WAY nicer than roughing it in a tiny shelter in the woods, in the middle of winter.

Yes, there is a cell signal. The nearest neighbor is 3 acres or so away. I live in a fairly rural area now, so getting out to the country is pretty easy. Getting a land line would cost a lot since as of right now the power poles (that carry the phone lines) end at the property 3 acres away.

 

Actually I do have an idea of what it will be like. I've actually lived without power or running water for 27 days. I can imagine what that would be like extended over several to six months.

[Parrothead]

You could build a very small garage portion to your one-day house, insulate it extemely well and live in that through the winter. You would not be throwing your money away and would, in fact, be investing your money in your future.

 

Insead of kitchen cabinets, you could use shelves. You could build long tables to use instead of countertops. All of that can be used in the future garage.

 

This is the exact plan we have done.

Have you wintered through a zone 4 area?

[Parrothead]

Congratulations on getting your land!

 

Personally' date=' I'd want water on the site first. I'd be thinking of ways to get out of your rental - to save money - but not be thinking of moving there until there's water and a good shelter/trailer. Could you live with family for a few months? Is there any caretaking type part-time job available which comes with housing?

 

Do you know how far down water is on the land? Maybe your husband could rent a drill and make his own well - even if it's just temporary. With water, I think your plan could be doable, but still challenging considering the weather. The small size would actually be a benefit as it would be easier to heat. You didn't mention windows, but IMO that would be a must as the winter is long and dark - and pellet stoves need adequate ventilation too. Maybe there's a Habitat for Humanity which could help with some new or used building materials. You can also check with major builders and ask if they're taking down any houses and if you could take the windows and doors, etc..

 

If the weather is good there now, and you really want to go ahead with moving there, I'd consider getting out of your lease now to save the most you can. You could probably rough it in a good tent - maybe it could be set onto a platform - until your shelter is finished. Another thought is to look at used trailers and see if someone would take monthly payments - should still be less than the rent or building.[/quote']

These are all the things I'm considering. I have an 8 man tent that I'd put up after packing up the house and storing/tossing out the non-essentials. We'd live in the tent until the roof was on the shelter/cottage/garage/whatever it will eventually be called. A pellet stove can be direct vented so really not a big problem.

 

Not so many mobile homes around here. Housing in town is still affordable for those in the lower income levels. The house next door sold for $49,000. There was a listing for a nice (needed some cosmetic work) old house for $25,000 about six months ago. I thought about buying both as investment properties but the time wasn't/isn't right for us.

 

No family nearby. We've been on our own for more than a decade.

[Guest submarines]

I voted go, but under the following circumstances:

 

1- Your arm is healed, or well on its way to being healed when you start construction of the shelter.

 

2- You have a back-up plan: family or friends that you could stay with for a couple of months if it doesn't work out, or if there is an emergency.

 

As far as the shelter goes, do you have enough able-bodied friends and family to have a barn-raising type of event?

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

Do you have a plan for snow removal? We moved to the country a few years ago, and we have spent a small fortune on snow removal equipment. We came with a riding lawnmower that had a snowblower attachment. :lol: This attachment worked great when we lived in WI, but it broke under the weight of the first snow out here in MN/SD. We ended up buying a full size tractor and snow blower. Dh also needed to buy a 4-wheel drive vehicle so he can get to work when the roads aren't plowed.

 

Even if you live off a highway, you will need to remove the snow in your driveway.

 

For the record, I wouldn't do it with my littles. I would consider it if my kids were older....but....my dh loves to build and create like this AND I have five kids to help with the physical labor. Before considering it, though, I would need to have a better plan for water acquisition and storage. What septic accomodations are you planning? Are you thinking of using an outhouse in sub-zero temps? :001_huh: You can't rely on snowfall since some years we get hardly any (like last year).

We will have to contract out to have the road cleared. We hope to contract with the same guy the town contracts with so he can just do it all at one time. We have an 8hp snow blower for whatever driveway we will have.

[ktgrok]

If you don't have a few thousand for a trailer or better shelter, that tells me you don't have an emergency fund. Which means no way no how.

[Parrothead]

:iagree: I am very adventurous, and even though I live in Texas I am a Northerner at heart.

 

I would strongly suggest looking into a composting toilet and seeing if I could get at least one working spigot. You do not have really young kids, so as long as the arm is one the mend I say GO FOR IT!

 

Say's the woman who grew up living in everything from Yurts, converted school buses, sailboats, and who really wants her dh to be transferred somewhere north so I can do something similar to what you are. :)

 

Also, make sure you have a safe fall back location. Friends house, families house, motel.

 

This forum is wonderful! http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/index.php

Yes. I thought I mentioned a composting toilet in my first post. Maybe not.

 

I have about 80% usage of the arm.

[Parrothead]

You're running into the cheap/easy/quality problem - you need all three, but it's difficult to find something that's more than two of those. There are decent quality prefab buildings that can be built very quickly without too much effort, but they're not as cheap as you need.

 

Do you have any sort of backup plan in case you put all your resources into building something and things go wrong? If not, you're talking not just unpleasant, but flat out life-threatening dangerous.

 

That said, haybale construction *might* be possible depending on your budget and the availability of supplies locally, especially if you had help, and especially if you found someone experienced to help.

I've looked at haybale. Dh (being the good firefighter he is) isn't convinced that it would be safe with a pellet stove. So it will have to be stick built or possibly pre-fab. We will be going to the Amish area next week to see how much they want for a couple of small buildings (sheds) that we could tie together.

[2squared]

If you don't have a few thousand for a trailer or better shelter, that tells me you don't have an emergency fund. Which means no way no how.

 

:iagree: This is a good point. I am adventurous, but not without adequate financial reserves.

[TranquilMind]

As someone who had to live like that for awhile, don't do it. set aside a little over the next year and see if you can build a little more winter suitable cabin. Living without running water, in a shelter that's not really warm, is very hard, especially with kids.

Agreed. I wouldn't even consider this.

[ocelotmom]

Yes. I thought I mentioned a composting toilet in my first post. Maybe not.

Do you already own one? I've seen trailers around here for cheaper than composting toilets! :)

[Parrothead]

If you don't have a few thousand for a trailer or better shelter, that tells me you don't have an emergency fund. Which means no way no how.

No, no emergency fund right now. Well, we have one but it is no longer fully funded.

[Parrothead]

Do you already own one? I've seen trailers around here for cheaper than composting toilets! :)

No, we don't own one currently.

 

You know, I've never really thought about it until recently. There just aren't mobile homes here. It is weird.

[Denisemomof4]

I voted stay. You are ony talking about six months worth of rent, but that is six months of creature comforts! What if we have a really harsh winter? This is my biggest concern.

 

I didn't read the thread yet, will do now, but I wonder what you will do with that shelter. Take some of my animals?:D

 

You also don't know what you are looking at with the recovery of your arm. It would be horrible to reinjure it again.

[Juniper]

Yes. I thought I mentioned a composting toilet in my first post. Maybe not.

 

I have about 80% usage of the arm.

 

Ack, you did. I missed it. ;)

 

You are probably going to spend the same on small insulated "shed" that you would on a travel trailer. The only problem is that you would still have to insulate the travel trailer and I am not sure about heating it with a pellet stove.

 

Again, if you have a safe fallback, I am game. It is hard to be caught between a rock and hard place finacially. You probably won't be doing much this winter, because you won't want to risk injuries, but it sounds like a wonderful adventure! Give me 3 years or so and I am right there with you!!!

[Liz CA]

I would not entirely give up on the thought of a used trailer. We sold our old trailer for $300 when we got rid of it and that included a fully functioning wood stove. However, all that said, we are in CA.

See what the outer limits of the budget are, then start looking. If nothing materializes, I'd stay put until next spring. Honestly, the thought of hauling buckets of water around in freezing weather would make me want to pay rent a little longer. :001_smile:

[Parrothead]

I voted stay. You are ony talking about six months worth of rent, but that is six months of creature comforts! What if we have a really harsh winter? This is my biggest concern.

 

I didn't read the thread yet, will do now, but I wonder what you will do with that shelter. Take some of my animals?:D

 

You also don't know what you are looking at with the recovery of your arm. It would be horrible to reinjure it again.

Didn't I tell you what I want to do with it during our lunch?

[Denisemomof4]

How about staying put for this winter but deciding as a family to get RUTHLESS about cutting costs. If you were willing to do without something to live in a shelter on the property, then cut it out NOW but stay where you are and save the difference. Then you can try to quickly accumulate funds to put a better *home* in place for NEXT winter.

 

Is your property conducive to having a daylight basement? Maybe you could make a plan to put in a daylight basement NEXT summer to be living in by NEXT winter (2013). Include plans for septic, running water, electricity, etc. Then, you can slowly build *up* from there. A basement, being mostly underground, would help with insulation for both summer and winter...but it will be dark in winter even with one whole side exposed. If you are willing to live in a 10x13 space, by then you could make the basement the *footprint* for the future *house* but do very little beyond the basics. Maybe a private bathroom, but the rest of the area *open*. It would be easier to heat that way.

 

Just some thoughts...

 

(Not saying the basement should be 10x13...but making the point that no matter how cramped it might be, you are willing to put up with less space than you WOULD have. :) )

 

I love all these points!!!

[In the Rain]

As someone who needs a shower (not a sponge bath, not a tub bath, but an honest to goodness shower), I vote "stay". :lol: You are clearly more adventurous than I am. Congratulations on the land. :hurray:

[ocelotmom]

You know, I've never really thought about it until recently. There just aren't mobile homes here. It is weird.

 

You are probably going to spend the same on small insulated "shed" that you would on a travel trailer. The only problem is that you would still have to insulate the travel trailer and I am not sure about heating it with a pellet stove.

 

I'm wondering if they just aren't practical for your climate. I know the one we have is hard to keep warm in the winter, and I agree that a pellet stove would be impractical.

 

I've looked at haybale. Dh (being the good firefighter he is) isn't convinced that it would be safe with a pellet stove. So it will have to be stick built or possibly pre-fab. We will be going to the Amish area next week to see how much they want for a couple of small buildings (sheds) that we could tie together.

Is he basing this on research, personal experience, or gut reaction?

 

*Properly done* haybale (eg. tightly packed bales, fully coated with something water/fire resistant, with a fireproof hearth around the stove, which you'd want regardless) is safer than stick built. The plaster is fire resistant, the tightly packed haybales don't burn easily, and, if they do burn, the fire isn't going to spread quickly.

[Denisemomof4]

Didn't I tell you what I want to do with it during our lunch?

 

I didn't realize it would be a separate building. It's going to be nice!!!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

Actually I do have an idea of what it will be like. I've actually lived without power or running water for 27 days. I can imagine what that would be like extended over several to six months.

 

I've lived through entire long winters without running water or power. I was your daughter's age. Do you have her buy-in on this? Physically and emotionally, a long-term primitive lifestyle is very, very hard on a child who is used to modern conveniences.

 

In the summer you can call it "camping" but in the worst of winter it's another animal entirely.

[catz]

Reread Laura Ingall Wilder's The Long Winter and talk yourself OUT of it!!!

 

:iagree:Borrow a tent for a couple weeks and haul your own water and see how you feel about it. We are super adventurous here. We went trekking in Nepal for our honeymoon miles from roads or phones or civilization. I would not try to winter in a self made shelter if you can see Canada from your house. I've winter camped and that feeling of being cold day after day all day is so grating and depressing. I certainly wouldn't try it without being in 100% physical tip top shape. We are a few hours from Canada so I know what that kind of winter feels like.

 

I'm also curious about the cost of supplies to build the shed and a compostable toilet? Aren't the toilets alone upward of $1000? I'd worry about having a safe enough stove to burn indoors in a man made structure.

 

I'm totally not being snarky. We're huge campers here, but I wouldn't attempt this without a good backup fund/plan.

 

ETA - I might consider it in a more moderate climate (like only occasionally going below freezing).

Edited June 13, 2012 by kck

[Juniper]

Have you seen this? It is beautiful! http://thehomesteadingboards.com/forum/general-homesteading-group2/construction-and-diy-projects-forum5/our-earth-sheltered-home-thread673.1/

 

They're in Maine.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Juniper

[Guest submarines]

Have you seen this? It is beautiful! http://thehomesteadingboards.com/forum/general-homesteading-group2/construction-and-diy-projects-forum5/our-earth-sheltered-home-thread673.1/

 

They're in Maine.

 

Wow. Inspirational.

[KnitWit]

Have you seen this? It is beautiful! http://thehomesteadingboards.com/forum/general-homesteading-group2/construction-and-diy-projects-forum5/our-earth-sheltered-home-thread673.1/

 

They're in Maine.

 

Wow.

 

I have to say that I don't know if I could handle all the dark color choices without more natural light.

 

I wonder what they would do different if they could...

[Parrothead]

 

 

Is he basing this on research, personal experience, or gut reaction?

Oh, it is a gut reaction.

[Parrothead]

Have you seen this? It is beautiful! http://thehomesteadingboards.com/forum/general-homesteading-group2/construction-and-diy-projects-forum5/our-earth-sheltered-home-thread673.1/

 

They're in Maine.

That turned out nice. The roof they put on that is similar to what I'm looking at doing for this particular building.

[lionfamily1999]

If we had the shelter up and weather ptoofed, with LOTS of wood chopped for heat, I would go for it. Voted other, because it would depend on how ready our shelter was.

[katilac]

Another consideration that might be very important to your dd is dealing with her period (or starting her period) with no running water. I wouldn't enjoy it myself, and my dd would be horrified.

[LittleIzumi]

If you can build in the spring' date=' I'd stay put until then. In the spring/summer you can tent camp and then move into the basement once that's built. Stay warm and do everything you can to help your arm to heal so you'll be ready for building in the spring.[/quote']

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[clarkacademy]

I would be way too scared the kids health may suffer in that type of situation. I mean what if they had to go to a doc and the doc decided to call child services ir something? I could see that ending badly. I could also see that being hard on most people living like that for such a long time that were not used to it.

[Parrothead]

I would be way too scared the kids health may suffer in that type of situation. I mean what if they had to go to a doc and the doc decided to call child services ir something? I could see that ending badly. I could also see that being hard on most people living like that for such a long time that were not used to it.

Why would the doctor need to know if we were without running water?

[justamouse]

:iagree: I am very adventurous, and even though I live in Texas I am a Northerner at heart.

 

I would strongly suggest looking into a composting toilet and seeing if I could get at least one working spigot. You do not have really young kids, so as long as the arm is one the mend I say GO FOR IT!

 

Say's the woman who grew up living in everything from Yurts, converted school buses, sailboats, and who really wants her dh to be transferred somewhere north so I can do something similar to what you are. :)

 

Also, make sure you have a safe fall back location. Friends house, families house, motel.

 

This forum is wonderful! http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/index.php

 

 

Let's be honest, you're done with the gargantuan bugs down there. :D

[fraidycat]

Nope, I wouldn't do it.

 

What about cutting rent costs to help save for the big move? Move into a teeny tiny, one room apartment that has utilities. Winter it out in there while you save and plan to start building in the spring.

[Guest thehomesteadingboards]

Wow.

 

I have to say that I don't know if I could handle all the dark color choices without more natural light.

 

I wonder what they would do different if they could...

 

it's not really that dark inside, all the windows out front allow in a ton of light, if I did it over I would have gone with a more traditional roof line and used solar tubes or have just gone with the earth roof. The windows up top allow in light but the original idea was we could open them and allow convection to take the heat out of the home but opening and closing the windows take a lot of effort so they stay closed all the time

[Parrothead]

it's not really that dark inside, all the windows out front allow in a ton of light, if I did it over I would have gone with a more traditional roof line and used solar tubes or have just gone with the earth roof. The windows up top allow in light but the original idea was we could open them and allow convection to take the heat out of the home but opening and closing the windows take a lot of effort so they stay closed all the time

 

Welcome.

[southcarolinamom]

Because of this:

 

Location: I can see Canada from my house.

 

Stay.

 

:iagree:

[ktgrok]

the biggest issue for me is that you don't have a well funded emergency stash of cash. If something goes wrong, goes overbudget part way through (and you KNOW it will), something vital breaks, etc...you have no way out. that is foolhardy. Yes, it might work out, but you are not in a life or death situation where you NEED to put your family in that situation. You seem to be eager to start, but this is a long term goal, and you need to be practical.

[ktgrok]

also, I think the money to build, the money to heat, the money to heat water, the gas to go get the water, the composting toilet, etc will add up and not really save you much money.

[higginszoo]

also, I think the money to build, the money to heat, the money to heat water, the gas to go get the water, the composting toilet, etc will add up and not really save you much money.

 

I agree with this ... better to save the money that you'd spend hauling water and wait to get the well dug next year.

[KnitWit]

it's not really that dark inside, all the windows out front allow in a ton of light, if I did it over I would have gone with a more traditional roof line and used solar tubes or have just gone with the earth roof. The windows up top allow in light but the original idea was we could open them and allow convection to take the heat out of the home but opening and closing the windows take a lot of effort so they stay closed all the time

 

Hey! Welcome and THANKS for the response!

 

Would your upper windows be easy to replace with *crank* windows? I knew someone with those and they had a long pole that attached to the crank handle and they could do it with their feet firmly planted.

 

I found myself wondering which direction your house is facing. Do you get sun all day...provided there *is* sun shining? My comment was more a personal preference thing. Your house is lovely :) but I tend to get bluesy in winter if I don't have lots of natural light and lighter colors...even though I am DRAWN to *cozy* colors. (I acknowledge that pictures probably don't do it justice. :) )

[KnitWit]

OP, I agree with pps about the cash flow situation. There is ALWAYS a snafu. Always something you didn't foresee.

 

Over the years, the only people I've met whose construction projects came in *under* budget, are the ones who padded the budget to start with. :lol:

[KnitWit]

Let's be honest, you're done with the gargantuan bugs down there. :D

 

:lol:

[Juniper]

Let's be honest, you're done with the gargantuan bugs down there. :D

 

Yes, it is true;) I have decided that this is my favorite part of Texas, but it still isn't the north! I want to crochet scarves and mittens and cozy up to fireplace, but there just isn't a need.

 

I love where we are at! It has everything, but a fall and winter.:D

Edited June 13, 2012 by Juniper

[Tap]

A few major concerns for me with this scenario:

 

I assume you will be 'off the beaten path' a bit since you are not close enough to have water. Will you have a snow-plow able-driveway? Do you have your own plow? If you have a bad arm, who will run it? Who will shovel off the snow each day from the car? If you are already roughing it, with water and such, this is going to become another big chore.

 

Water. As others have said, this is a huge issue. I have a friend who lived like this for years. Her family got weekly baths in the same water. Cleanest to dirtiest (usually oldest to youngest). She said that to give the family a bath took most of the day. Hauling gallons and gallons of water and then heating it. Keeping it warm and then bathing, was a huge task. On top of that, they had to haul the water, through the snow. The path was slippery, compacted snow and if they sloshed a bit of water (icy snow run off from a stream), it would make the trail icy. Each time it snowed, they either had to pack down the path again or shovel.

 

Laundry. She just got used to having dirty clothes most of the time. Again, the shear amount of work it took to was a few loads was tremendous. To melt snow in the winter was painfully slow and took A LOT of snow. The ratio of snow to water in volume is anywhere from 7:1 to 100:1. That is to say, in a best case scenario, it will take 21 gallons of snow to make 3 gallons of water. Will you have a place for 21 gallons of snow to melt each day....just for dishes?

 

Square footage. I can handle a small home. But with just me and a child cooped up in a cabin all day....I would go bonkers. I would probably spend more money driving into town that I would like. Is the town relatively close to you? WIll you be able to get the car out of the driveway? We spend quite a bit of time in the snow in the winter at a cabin. I have seen days where dh shoveled in the morning and 4 hours later, we had to shovel again for me to drive out. Will you have a mud room (a lot of outdoor time predicted LOL)? Will you have a dry place to store pellets? Indoor water storage (can dh fill up plastic containers at work and bring them home each night? Food storage in case you get snowed in?

 

How will you handle power outages? Even if they are rare, will you be reliant on power at all (fan in pellet stove etc)?

 

Compost toilets need a certain temperature to work. Will it be an indoor toilet? I don't think they will work most of the year where you are. What will be your backup plan for this? Outhouse....in the snow?

 

 

Building to snow load codes is not cheap. Have you factored that into your price for building?

 

 

I know that pioneers did these types of thing an most survived. But I doubt many would do it on purpose, just to save 6mths of rent. LOL I would look at what you would really, honestly be saving after building the structure. Yes, you will save some money on rent, but I honestly can not see it being all that much! Certainly not enough for me to want to live that way, all day, everyday for 6 mths.

 

 

Can you camp on the property in a tent for a month this summer to get a feel for it?

[Dobela]

Building a small chicken coop that is 12 ft by 12 ft easily cost us $2000 in materials - and it doesn't have electricity or a toilet or running water or insulation. Some of our materials were free, others were from salvage yards, others new. If you can afford to build a small building, then you can afford a junky trailer of some sort, or at least in our area. But travel trailers are not warm. My in-laws decided to live in one, by the WA coast, and nearly froze out.

 

Where would you put all of your other belongings? In storage? build yet another building? That adds expense as well.

 

I would spend money first to get water to the property, then move.

Yes, there is a cell signal. The nearest neighbor is 3 acres or so away. I live in a fairly rural area now, so getting out to the country is pretty easy. Getting a land line would cost a lot since as of right now the power poles (that carry the phone lines) end at the property 3 acres away.

3 acres apart is not very far apart. We live in a dead end neighborhood where we have the smallest lot of 3 acres, the rest are 5 and up and the houses are still pretty close. If someone decided to move onto one lot with no water, live in a shack, and keep a child there, I have no doubt that at least one neighbor would be calling social services. And social services would not like that living situation here.