s/o the pledge of allegience...

[Lovedtodeath]

What does it mean exactly? Why is it okay or not okay to say it? Do most people have a true understanding of all of this or do they just go along with the crowd? Is singing the Star Spangled Banner any different?

Edited April 30, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Joanne]

As a child/student, I went along with the crowd.

 

The elementary students here go along with the crowd.

 

I think it's creepy. I also think it's a fair bit ironic to be expected to say it based on my understanding of the US's values and origin.

[Chris in VA]

I grew up with it, said it without question, and have no problem with it.

I know you are coming out of a religion that doesn't say it and has a way big problem with it--

I think it's an idealistic thing, to say there's liberty and justice for all here in the US, but I'm ok with that, too. I like having ideals and values, even if they aren't always met.

[AdventureMoms]

The whole thing is really weird to me. My idea of freedom does not include required pledges of allegiance (as in public schools). I also have serious issues with the "under God" bit, as an Atheist.

 

I said it without thought as a child, and I don't think most people think about it at all. I find that exceedingly disturbing - that we would want people to "pledge allegiance" to anything - let alone a flag - without actually understanding what those words mean.

 

The star-spangled banner bothers me a lot less. It is patriotic, but it is not a pledge of anything and the lyrics are not written to specifically include religion in the mix, at least not in the first verse (the only verse commonly sung).

Edited April 30, 2012 by AdventureMoms

[MomatHWTK]

Here's a brief history of it's development:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56320,00.html

[*********]

I do NOT say the pledge of allegience. I have not taught it to my chlildren, nor would I allow them to say it. I will eventually teach them what it *is*, as well as why we don't say it. Which is, basically, that we do *not* pledge our allegience to 'the flag', nor to the USA.

 

We also do not sing patriotic songs, as we are not patriotic.

 

My citizenship is in heaven. :001_smile:

[Singingmom]

To me, patriotism is a good thing. It is a natural thing to value and love your Country. And, you can do that without believing that your Nation and it's founding was/ is faultless. None are! I do believe that this 200 + year experiment did much more good than harm, and that our constitution and the ideals this country is founded on are noble and worth defending/ upholding. And it is worth the work to right the wrongs/ injustices that have happened/ are happening here.

 

It also is not allegiance on par with our allegiance to God. More on par with that of the loyalty we feel toward family and friends. I have my boys recite the Pledge every morning, at the beginning of circle time. As they get older, I will be honest about our history....the good, the bad and the ugly. But, I want to instill in them a love for their homeland, and more importantly the ideals upon which it was founded. I believe that is good and healthy. It isn't a mindless exercise for us. Anyway, just my deeply felt .02.

[Joanne]

I do NOT say the pledge of allegience. I have not taught it to my chlildren, nor would I allow them to say it. I will eventually teach them what it *is*, as well as why we don't say it. Which is, basically, that we do *not* pledge our allegience to 'the flag', nor to the USA.

 

We also do not sing patriotic songs, as we are not patriotic.

 

My citizenship is in heaven. :001_smile:

 

I respect that. I want to be clear that I feel I am patriotic, and I like voluntarily singing patriotic songs.

 

It's the context and setting and content of the pledge I think is creepy.

[happypamama]

I have vague issues with the Pledge. I think the mindless saying of it is kind of creepy. I also have vague concerns about pledging allegiance to anything other than God, Himself, directly. Even though it includes "under God," it still makes me uncomfortable. I have told my children that they are not required to say it if they don't want to, though if they choose to abstain, they are required to be polite.

[PeacefulChaos]

First off, I never realized that the pledge of allegiance was anything controversial. :blink: :001_huh:

 

But this -

To me, patriotism is a good thing. It is a natural thing to value and love your Country. And, you can do that without believing that your Nation and it's founding was/ is faultless. None are! I do believe that this 200 + year experiment did much more good than harm, and that our constitution and the ideals this country is founded on are noble and worth defending/ upholding. And it is worth the work to right the wrongs/ injustices that have happened/ are happening here.

 

It also is not allegiance on par with our allegiance to God. More on par with that of the loyalty we feel toward family and friends. I have my boys recite the Pledge every morning, at the beginning of circle time. As they get older, I will be honest about our history....the good, the bad and the ugly. But, I want to instill in them a love for their homeland, and more importantly the ideals upon which it was founded. I believe that is good and healthy. It isn't a mindless exercise for us. Anyway, just my deeply felt .02.

 

sums up my feelings on it. Obviously we're Christians. But this is totally different - it's patriotism. I like our country for the most part.

I can honestly say I have never met anyone IRL who doesn't say the pledge of allegiance and stuff. To me, that just seems sort of weird. Sorry, not trying to offend... it's just not something I've ever heard of, and I honestly can't understand the reasoning behind it.

[justasque]

Quakers, as a general rule, do not pledge. This link explains why.

[Mimm]

As a kid I didn't mind it but didn't really get it either. As an adult, I find it kind of weird but not enough to make an issue about it. I go along with it when it's being said. I do love my country, despite it's many problems. :) We say it at our co-op. I would prefer we drop it, but I don't wish to make a stink about something that takes less than a minute out of our day.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you all for your participation. So far, we avoid showing up on time when we know an event will start out with it, as we haven't come to a conclusion about it... which is why I asked you all for information. ;)

 

Now the Girl Scout pledge I don't have any problems with so far.

[Lovedtodeath]

My citizenship is in heaven. :001_smile:

Absolutely!

 

and the Apostle Paul said that... but I noticed that he also claimed Roman citizenship.

[arghmatey]

Up until a few months ago, we would say it and our state pledge every day.

 

Now we say, "I pledge allegiance to God and my family, and I feel privileged and blessed to live and home educate in this country and state."

 

I'm still fine-tuning the language. It doesn't flow, but I'm more interested in the meaning than in meter.

[Singingmom]

I agree that Christians need to remember that this World is not our home ( we are just passing through, as the old gospel song says) . But, we were, according to Acts 17, placed by God into families, nations, and time periods for a purpose. Also, there is in the Old Testament, a great importance placed on Land. God gives land to his people to possess for His purposes and plan. Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not equating the US with the Holy Land. I am just saying that I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling a sense of belonging and love for the Land upon which one has been placed :) .

 

Sadly, Nationalism / patriotism is becoming very non PC, uncool, and is seen as a detriment to the progressive ideal of being a " citizen of the world". Personally, I find the movement toward a one world government in our society much more problematic and troubling, from a Biblical point of view, than that of maintaining a sense of our uniqueness and sovereignty.

 

 

Absolutely!

 

and the Apostle Paul said that... but I noticed that he also claimed Roman citizenship.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Singingmom

[arghmatey]

I guess I just realized that I can't think of a single situation in which I would die for my country. For God, yes, for my family, yes, but for my country? I really don't think so (though I have very deep respect for those who choose to do so).

[Amy Jo]

First off, I never realized that the pledge of allegiance was anything controversial. :blink: :001_huh:

 

Sadly, Nationalism / patriotism is becoming very non PC, uncool, and is seen as a detriment to the progressive ideal of being a " citizen of the world". Personally, I find the movement toward a one world government in our society much more problematic and troubling, from a Biblical point of view, than that of maintaining a sense of our uniqueness and sovereignty.

 

:iagree: If you don't want to say it, that's fine with me (I think we should all be respectful of course). But I am sick of the PC stuff where somehow certain people don't have a right to free speech because some unknown person might be offended. There are a lot of people that need to grow up!

 

I love my family, but they aren't perfect. Is perfection a requirement for love and loyalty? If so, does anyone deserve loyalty?

 

I do think children should know the meaning of the words, and we don't say the pledge every morning. But I think they should know the pledge. And that we aren't pledging to the current crop of :biggrinjester: in charge, but the basic values and foundations of this country.

 

Absolutely!

 

and the Apostle Paul said that... but I noticed that he also claimed Roman citizenship.

 

Good point, I never thought about that.

 

I guess I just realized that I can't think of a single situation in which I would die for my country. For God, yes, for my family, yes, but for my country? I really don't think so (though I have very deep respect for those who choose to do so).

 

What do you think of when you think of "your country"? (I'm just curious. I think of my family and my neighbors - even the ones I don't always agree with. I also think of the freedom we have, and that freedom is worth fighting for to me. I don't think of a flag or the ___ politicians.)

[arghmatey]

 

 

 

 

What do you think of when you think of "your country"? (I'm just curious. I think of my family and my neighbors - even the ones I don't always agree with. I also think of the freedom we have, and that freedom is worth fighting for to me. I don't think of a flag or the ___ politicians.)

 

A geographical location where I was blessed to be born, for sure.

 

As far as freedom, I might die for certain freedoms, but I can't say for sure I would. I really don't know if my courage would extend beyond dying for God and my family (to save their lives in a certain moment, as from a snake, or taking a bullet for them).

 

I would definitely run in front of a car to save a child, but I would do that if we were visiting another country, too. I don't think there's anything I would do in this country to save someone's life or many lives that I would not also do if visiting another country (for example: catching a grenade to save a group of school children).

 

I would definitely not run in front of a car to save an adult, saving an adult life and leaving my own children motherless.

 

I would fight for certain freedoms, but I might not die for them. I'm not sure, and I definitely can't pledge allegiance to something every day and have my children do the same when I'm not certain I'm actually loyal to it to the death.

 

What our country was intended to be, what I believe our country should be...I might die for those things, but I'm not sure. What our country actually has become? I'm sure I would not die for that.

 

We have the U.S. flag and the Texas flag in our home. My children know the pledges and many, many other poems and patriotic songs.

 

We support the military and our country in many ways, and I'm firm in my commitment to continue doing so.

[Spy Car]

I would happily take an oath to defend our Constitution, but the Pledge of Allegiance—as modified in 1954—is IMO clearly a unconstitutional imposition on school children. I made the decision to stand silently, but otherwise opt out of saying the Pledge in Third Grade.

 

It would feel I was being hypocritical to participate in what amounts to coerced prayer.

 

Bill

[Singingmom]

I would happily take an oath to defend our Constitution, but the Pledge of Allegiance—as modified in 1954—is IMO clearly a unconstitutional imposition on school children. I made the decision to stand silently, but otherwise opt out of saying the Pledge in Third Grade.

 

It would feel I was being hypocritical to participate in what amounts to coerced prayer.

 

Bill

 

And I would respect that. I defend and support a citizen's freedom to choose to have no religion; or to have one that prohibits saluting a flag.

 

But, I am glad it says " Under God" , I must admit :)

[Hedgehogs4]

I thought I was very weird for not pledging the flag, but my resistance comes not from any politically correct mindset or anything like that. I am deeply patriotic and love my country, but when I was a kid in public school it really nagged at me that I said this thing every day -- why did I need to say it EVERY DAY? It felt like brainwashing. Further, I believed then, and even more so now that my only allegiance is to God. I remember asking my mother if it could be considered idolatry to pledge the flag! When I learned the history of the pledge I was even more convinced that it was something to be avoided, rather than accepted on its face as a harmless show of devotion to country.

 

So obviously it's something I've been very uncomfortable with for a very long time, and I never told anyone outside of my immediate family until this last year, at which point I decided I did not want my children to pledge and reasoned with them about my feelings concerning it. It is our family policy now not to pledge, but to show respect. I will place hand over heart for the national anthem and stand for the flag, but pledge I will not do.

[Hedgehogs4]

And I would respect that. I defend and support a citizen's freedom to choose to have no religion; or to have one that prohibits saluting a flag.

 

But, I am glad it says " Under God" , I must admit :)

 

originally, it did not say "under God"--that was added later.

[Singingmom]

originally, it did not say "under God"--that was added later.

 

I know, but I like that part, just the same :001_smile:

[Georgiana Daniels]

I agree that Christians need to remember that this World is not our home ( we are just passing through, as the old gospel song says) . But, we were, according to Acts 17, placed by God into families, nations, and time periods for a purpose. Also, there is in the Old Testament, a great importance placed on Land. God gives land to his people to possess for His purposes and plan. Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not equating the US with the Holy Land. I am just saying that I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling a sense of belonging and love for the Land upon which one has been placed :) .

 

Sadly, Nationalism / patriotism is becoming very non PC, uncool, and is seen as a detriment to the progressive ideal of being a " citizen of the world". Personally, I find the movement toward a one world government in our society much more problematic and troubling, from a Biblical point of view, than that of maintaining a sense of our uniqueness and sovereignty.

 

:iagree:

 

But, I haven't taught the Pledge to our kids. Goodness, it's a PLEDGE! Something not to be taken lightly. My allegiance is to God, but I certainly am respectful about the whole thing, and I DO love this country. No where else on Earth I'd rather live! So blessed.

[ktgrok]

I remember thinking it was really weird that you had to do it daily. I stopped saying it in 7th grade. I figured, I pledged my allegiance already. It's not like I became a spy overnight, you know? Why on earth do I need to say it EVERY day? Seems like something you would do once.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I remember thinking it was really weird that you had to do it daily. I stopped saying it in 7th grade. I figured, I pledged my allegiance already. It's not like I became a spy overnight, you know? Why on earth do I need to say it EVERY day? Seems like something you would do once.

 

:lol::lol:

[Spy Car]

I know, but I like that part, just the same :001_smile:

 

You can like it, but it is patently unconstitutional. We have a constitution in large measure to protect citizens from the "tyranny of the majority." Affirming (or rejecting) supernatural beings has no place in public oaths.

 

Bill

[Joanne]

Sadly, Nationalism / patriotism is becoming very non PC, uncool, and is seen as a detriment to the progressive ideal of being a " citizen of the world". Personally, I find the movement toward a one world government in our society much more problematic and troubling, from a Biblical point of view, than that of maintaining a sense of our uniqueness and sovereignty.

 

Saying the pledge is not synonymous with nationalism or patriotism. Not saying it is not synonymous with anti-nationalism or being unpatriotic.

 

I like/value a lot of the values this country stands for. I don't pledge allegience to a flag or a country.

[Singingmom]

Well, Bill, you may have a point there. I'll give that some thought. I want to be fair, and I do take our constitution seriously. Thanks for posting that challenge to my statement :) .

 

You can like it, but it is patently unconstitutional. We have a constitution in large measure to protect citizens from the "tyranny of the majority." Affirming (or rejecting) supernatural beings has no place in public oaths.

 

Bill

[K&Rs Mom]

It would feel I was being hypocritical to participate in what amounts to coerced prayer.

 

Prayer is talking *to* God; the pledge is talking *about* Him. I'm not saying anyone should swear that the nation is united under something they don't believe, but it's a different problem than prayer.

 

I don't think there has been a situation in the past few years where I was around anyone saying the pledge. Do they still do it in public schools? I thought I'd heard that most of them stopped.

[Singingmom]

Saying the pledge is not synonymous with nationalism or patriotism. Not saying it is not synonymous with anti-nationalism or being unpatriotic.

 

I like/value a lot of the values this country stands for. I don't pledge allegience to a flag or a country.

 

 

I actually think that is a good point. I mentioned before that I did respect those who did not believe they should say the pledge. I love the freedom we still have here to act in harmony with our conscience. I wrote the above in response to some of the earlier comments in This thread, and more generally, an attitudinal trend that I see being espoused especially among younger Americans ( anti- American, anti-patriotic attitudes) which I do find troubling. I do not merely find it troubling if someone for belief/ religious reasons does not feel comfortable saying the POA.

[*********]

Absolutely!

 

and the Apostle Paul said that... but I noticed that he also claimed Roman citizenship.

 

Yes, he did. He did *not*, however, pledge any sort of allegience to Rome or it's flag. :001_smile:

 

I don't deny that I'm a citizen of the USA. That's just a fact. But a fact that means very little to me, tbh.

[Mergath]

My biggest problem is that we really don't have "liberty and justice for all" in our country, so to me, it's a lie. I'm not going to stand up and recite a pledge that's so blatently untrue.

[Lovedtodeath]

I guess I just realized that I can't think of a single situation in which I would die for my country. For God, yes, for my family, yes, but for my country? I really don't think so (though I have very deep respect for those who choose to do so).

Yes, I agree I would just as soon move to a different country. I do however have great respect for the men who risk their lives for the oppressed. “Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” Elie Wiesel

 

I thought I was very weird for not pledging the flag, but my resistance comes not from any politically correct mindset or anything like that. I am deeply patriotic and love my country, but when I was a kid in public school it really nagged at me that I said this thing every day -- why did I need to say it EVERY DAY? It felt like brainwashing. Further, I believed then, and even more so now that my only allegiance is to God. I remember asking my mother if it could be considered idolatry to pledge the flag! When I learned the history of the pledge I was even more convinced that it was something to be avoided, rather than accepted on its face as a harmless show of devotion to country.

 

So obviously it's something I've been very uncomfortable with for a very long time, and I never told anyone outside of my immediate family until this last year, at which point I decided I did not want my children to pledge and reasoned with them about my feelings concerning it. It is our family policy now not to pledge, but to show respect. I will place hand over heart for the national anthem and stand for the flag, but pledge I will not do.

Thanks. Some more specifics via email or PM might be helpful.

 

You can like it, but it is patently unconstitutional. We have a constitution in large measure to protect citizens from the "tyranny of the majority." Affirming (or rejecting) supernatural beings has no place in public oaths.

 

Bill

So Bill, if "under God" were not in the pledge, what would your feelings be about it?

[PeacefulChaos]

You can like it, but it is patently unconstitutional. We have a constitution in large measure to protect citizens from the "tyranny of the majority." Affirming (or rejecting) supernatural beings has no place in public oaths.

 

Bill

 

I agree, actually.

Despite being a conservative Christian myself, I don't support a lot of the ideas that the 'Religious Right' hold dear.

[Spy Car]

So Bill, if "under God" were not in the pledge, what would your feelings be about it?

 

I would think it was somewhat "oddly" constructed—given we pledge alliegence to the "flag" and the "Repubic" seems almost like an afterthought—so it would not be the language of my choice were we choosing a national pledge, but I would have no grand objections beyond that.

 

"Liberty and justice for all" I would take as aspirational goals, not (unfortunately) the day-to-day reality for all. I cherish American ideals, and want very much to live in a society that fully implements them.

 

Bill

[Singingmom]

"Liberty and justice for all" I would take as aspirational goals, not (unfortunately) the day-to-day reality for all. I cherish American ideals, and want very much to live in a society that fully implements them.

 

:iagree::iagree:

Bill

[Bluegoat]

Sadly, Nationalism / patriotism is becoming very non PC, uncool, and is seen as a detriment to the progressive ideal of being a " citizen of the world". Personally, I find the movement toward a one world government in our society much more problematic and troubling, from a Biblical point of view, than that of maintaining a sense of our uniqueness and sovereignty.

 

I think C.S. Lewis has some very wise things to say about patriotism - both its positives and negatives, and from a perspective of living through both WWI and WWII and serving in the former - patriotism in his view is wicked or good depending on whether it inspires us to love of the particuilar and appreciation of others, to heroism, to great deeds; it is wicked when it makes us more inclined to wickedness:

A man may have to die for our country: but no man must, in any exclusive sense, live for his country. He who surrenders himself without reservation to the temporal claims of a nation, or a party, or a class is rendering to Caesar that which, of all things, most emphatically belongs to God: himself.

I turn now to the love of one's country. Here there is no need to labour M. de Rougemont's maxim; we all know that this love becomes a demon when it becomes a god. Some begin to suspect that it is never anything but a demon. But then they have to reject half the high poetry and half the heroic action our race has achieved. We cannot keep even Christ's lament over Jerusalem. He too exhibits love for His country.

Of course patriotism of this kind is not in the least aggressive. It ask only to be let alone. it becomes militant only to protect what it loves. In any mind that has a pennyworth of imagination it produces a good attitude towards foreigners. How can I love my home without coming to realise that other men, no less rightly, love theirs? Once you have realised that Frenchmen like cafe' complet just as we like bacon and eggs-why good luck to them and let them have it. The last thing we want is to make everywhere else just like our own home. It would not be home unless it were different.

[Dustybug]

First off, I never realized that the pledge of allegiance was anything controversial. :blink: :001_huh:

 

But this -

 

 

sums up my feelings on it. Obviously we're Christians. But this is totally different - it's patriotism. I like our country for the most part.

I can honestly say I have never met anyone IRL who doesn't say the pledge of allegiance and stuff. To me, that just seems sort of weird. Sorry, not trying to offend... it's just not something I've ever heard of, and I honestly can't understand the reasoning behind it.

 

:iagree:

 

I had never heard of people not saying it until I joined these boards. I don't know if I'd call it "weird" to not say it, but it is definitely something I had never heard of before. I don't really consider myself a patriot. I live here because I was born here, but I'm not consumed with my "love of America." I'm grateful for the rights and freedoms that I have as a benefit to being a citizen here, but I would be willing to happily relocate elsewhere. I would never join the military and my thoughts on war are controversial to most.

[Singingmom]

Simply brilliant, and immensely wise. Thank you for posting it. Which book did you take the quote from? Screwtape Letters? I have to pull his stuff out and read it again!

Edited April 30, 2012 by Singingmom

[LizzyBee]

Here's a brief history of it's development:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56320,00.html

 

The story left out why Bellamy wrote the pledge and schoolchildren recited it for the first time on Oct 12, 1892. It coincided with the dedication ceremony at The World Columbian Exposition in Chicago. Bellamy thought it would be nice for schoolchildren all over the US to contribute something to the fair.

[Sputterduck]

I can 't say it. I don't know if it's a holdout from being a former JW or if I really have a problem with it.

[NanceXToo]

I grew up reciting it every day in school and it was just kind of second nature.

 

Now, thinking about it as an adult, it IS kind of creepy!

 

My kids have heard it but we do not recite it as part of our homeschool day and I don't "feel" anything when I hear it (nor did I ever), it's just kind of a rote memory thing that now feels sort of cultish.

[AdventureMoms]

I would think it was somewhat "oddly" constructed—given we pledge alliegence to the "flag" and the "Repubic" seems almost like an afterthought—so it would not be the language of my choice were we choosing a national pledge, but I would have no grand objections beyond that.

 

"Liberty and justice for all" I would take as aspirational goals, not (unfortunately) the day-to-day reality for all. I cherish American ideals, and want very much to live in a society that fully implements them.

 

Bill

 

I pretty much entirely agree with this, on the conditions that (a) the whole "under God" bit has to go. One does not have to believe in God to be patriotic. And (b) it should be actually optional - with no consequences for refusing - for schoolchildren or anyone else in a public setting. It is technically optional, but reality seems to often be different, especially for children in school.

[FairyMom]

I grew up reciting it every day in school and it was just kind of second nature.

 

Now, thinking about it as an adult, it IS kind of creepy!

 

My kids have heard it but we do not recite it as part of our homeschool day and I don't "feel" anything when I hear it (nor did I ever), it's just kind of a rote memory thing that now feels sort of cultish.

 

:iagree: My kids have heard it once or twice, but this is exactly how I feel.

[frugalmama]

I do NOT say the pledge of allegience. I have not taught it to my chlildren, nor would I allow them to say it. I will eventually teach them what it *is*, as well as why we don't say it. Which is, basically, that we do *not* pledge our allegience to 'the flag', nor to the USA.

 

 

Agreed. I quit saying it in high school {I was homeschooled prior to high school and we never said it} and haven't said it since. I have not taught it to dd either, even though she is in girl scouts.

 

My biggest problem is that we really don't have "liberty and justice for all" in our country, so to me, it's a lie. I'm not going to stand up and recite a pledge that's so blatently untrue.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: