Could someone please tell me why this is important?

[kareng]

Could someone please tell me why it's important to read about Greek stories by Homer, The Illiad, the Odyssey and the like? My dd and I tried getting through A Children's Homer and it was not pretty. We couldn't keep track of who was who and who was related to whom, etc. So a friend suggested trying The Trojan War by Olivia Coolidge. I must say it's better (clearer) than A Children's Homer but we still find it somewhat tedious and not exciting (still trying to remember who is whom but I appreciate the pronunciation guide of sorts in the back with a brief blurb of who is who).

 

But really, could you explain to me why this is important? Would we be permanently messed up if we don't actually make it through the book? Does it lay the foundation for something yet to come or do people just enjoy these stories?

[SunnyDays]

My thought on this...

 

The books are simply an important part of Western Civilization and our history, and therefore an important piece of a traditionally "classical" education. As this board has a classical education bent, you'll likely hear more about them here than on many other boards.

 

That said... not everyone follows classical education to the letter. Many people think having a working *knowledge* of these works is important, but less so actually reading and analyzing all of the original works.

 

I personally fall into the latter category. We aren't teaching Latin or Greek, and won't ever read the works in the original languages, or probably even full unabridged translations. That's just not our cup of tea. Possibly, depending on what route our education takes us, we might read through abridged versions (such as you listed) or summaries of the works. I think it's good to have a familiarity of these types of pieces to have a working knowledge of history and culture.

 

Does that help at all? :)

[laundrycrisis]

I want to expose our kids to these stories because I am ignorant of them as an adult, and I feel that I missed out on something that was interesting and culturally significant. But I don't want to drag them through any of it. I look for versions that are enjoyable. I really like Mary Pope Osborne's version of the Odyssey. I bought the set of two storybooks, not the individual stories.

[SunnyDays]

I want to expose our kids to these stories because I am ignorant of them as an adult, and I feel that I missed out on something that was interesting and culturally significant. But I don't want to drag them through any of it. I look for versions that are enjoyable. I really like Mary Pope Osborne's version of the Odyssey. I bought the set of two storybooks, not the individual stories.

 

Great post. And we have the same version of MPO's two volume Odyssey, and we love it. My DS has already read through them, and probably will again when he's older.

[shann]

The stories and characters in Greek myths/history are so often referenced in movies, tv, and other books (as is Shakespeare) that to be completely unfamiliar with them would be to miss out on the inside joke. And there is a real joy in "getting" the subtle references, for kids and adults. That's my take anyway :)

[*Michelle*]

It's all about being a part of the Great Conversation, to me. It's being conversant in the stories and ideas and debates that have shaped our civilization. I want to be a part of it and I want my children to be a part of it.

[Irishmommy]

It's all about being a part of the Great Conversation, to me. It's being conversant in the stories and ideas and debates that have shaped our civilization. I want to be a part of it and I want my children to be a part of it.

 

This! I think that it follows right along with why I believe the Bible should be familiar to everyone, not just a believer. There are so many allusions to these pieces of literature, I feel that one would greatly benefit from this reading.

 

Maybe you are trying with your dd a little too early? When I taught mythology in public school, it was late in 9th grade. Also, I would recommend keeping your eye on just the main characters. That way you don't get overwhelmed by the magnitude of the cast of characters. You could also look into one of those cliff's notes. I think my kids used these in order to keep everyone straight. Also, it really helps to know what you are going to read before you read it. So, you can use it as a tool instead of replacing the original. I always liked the Cliff's Complete editions of Shakespearean plays because it presented the original text along with the summaries. I always advised my students to read the summaries first, then the original. Hope that helps!

[Irishmommy]

Also, maybe you could draw out the "teams" in the war. That way you'll be able to keep them straight.:D

[Irishmommy]

Also, I read The Trojan War with my "average" 7th grade class in an inner city middle school. So, I would think it would be more manageable. Maybe just read that one for now?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think you got some great answers about why - I have a suggestion about what: Black Ships Before Troy is a wonderful retelling of "the whole story" behind the Trojan War, not just the little bit of it told in the Iliad. Rosemary Sutcliff is great, she has done a retelling of the Odyssey as well. I bet you both would enjoy those.

 

Also, if you do want to tackle "the originals" at some point, why not try an audio version? After all, they were really meant to be heard, not read, right? There is a wonderful recording of Ian McKellen reading Robert Fagle's translation of The Odyssey. It is phenomenal, a very gripping story, and he has such a velvet voice it is a pleasure to listen to.

[Irishmommy]

Yeah, I would try anything to make it easier before giving up. I forgot about the Sutcliff versions. They are good! I'll have to check out the audio you suggested!

[crazyforlatin]

DD loves the Illiad and the Odyssey, but I planned a progression of books starting when she was in preschool. I think it would be more difficult just jumping right into Colum or Coolidge, and although she enjoys those versions, I believe it really helped to go with the simple versions first. Also, have you tried the Percy Jackson books? I think if kids read those books, they would want to read the Illiad and the Odyssey and other Greek myths.

 

I second the idea of listening to the audiobook for Mary Pope Osborne's Tales from the Odyssey.

[Ecclecticmum]

Since its the first time round for my girl, and our library is regional, and doesn't have much stock in the way of more classic material, what I will be doing is this:

 

- Getting one recommended version of the book (from SOTW AB or HO etc) or another version (I really can't be picky at our library, there were no gilgamesh books for example)

- A lot of the books in question are available at my library as graphic novels, so we are going to get one of those too.

- Audio - I manged to find most of the stories on Audio.

 

If the first book is too heavy for her, we'll do the graphic novel, and mom will read the first book and summarise or add further details. If the graphic novel doesn't suit for whatever reason, I'll just play an audio version in the background :tongue_smilie: whilst we colour, craft etc.

 

All we're trying to do for the first time round is "introduce"/overview the stories & people. 2nd & 3rd time round are more for in depth stuff.

 

So maybe you could try either graphic novels or audio.

[Iucounu]

Though they have little to no other direct relevance to modern society, the stories are of some historical interest. You won't be missing out on anything if you skip them, as long as your children receive cultural enrichment in some other way. I can think of many more useful ways to spend learning time, personally, than reading "The Iliad" or "The Odyssey", but I also am happy that some people value a study of them. It takes all kinds. :D

Edited April 24, 2012 by Iucounu
Added "direct"

[Crimson Wife]

Though they have little to no other relevance to modern society, the stories are of some historical interest. You won't be missing out on anything if you skip them, as long as your children receive cultural enrichment in some other way. I can think of many more useful ways to spend learning time, personally, than reading "The Iliad" or "The Odyssey", but I also am happy that some people value a study of them. It takes all kinds. :D

 

I highly encourage you to read Drew Cambell's Latin-Centered Curriculum and then Tracy Lee Simmons' Climbing Parnassus.

[NASDAQ]

I'd read a summary so she can catch references, and perhaps take another try in a few years.

 

It's a good thing to do but not absolutely necessary. Also, they're not going anywhere.

[Iucounu]

I highly encourage you to read Drew Cambell's Latin-Centered Curriculum and then Tracy Lee Simmons' Climbing Parnassus.

I've read the first chapter of the latter, enough to know that I disagree with it heartily. The fact is, a person who reads the Cliff's Notes of "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey", or skips them altogether, will be no worse off.

[Soror]

I won't reiterate the why. But I don't think most people jump right into those, it takes years of reading good books to work up to the great works. Not only does it prepare one but also there is much good literature out there along the way. We are working on the good books now and quite enjoyed the Kingfisher Classic Odyssey- the 7yo dh and I- dd1 and 2 (2 and just turned 5) didn't much listen.

[PollyOR]

Several years ago my 10yo and I read The Iliad (Samuel Butler trans.). Phew! I felt so dumb, but we plowed through and were proud of ourselves in the end. We did use Cliffsnotes. With The Odyssey (Fitzgerald - much better) we used Cliffsnotes and Teaching Company lectures by Prof. Vandiver (love them!). I wish we had built up to Homer with Sutcliff, etc.

 

I plan to use the Memoria Press study guides (The Trojan War and then The Iliad and The Odyssey) with my now 14yo though she would much rather read Pride and Prejudice. :) I hope the MP guides will help us keep the characters straight.

 

I do think knowing the basic story line is valuable since there are references in many works of literature and art. You'll even find it taught in the Core Knowledge series (grade 6).

[Hunter]

My youngest son pretty much skipped all the retellings and launched right into the Loeb Classic versions, with the Greek/Latin on one page and the English on the other.

 

 

I think Nelson Mandela started reading the Great Books when he was in

, as an attempt to get to know his enemy better but then fell in love with the poem "Invictus"

 

 

There is not just one path, or a "right" way, to do the Great Books.

[Crimson Wife]

I've read the first chapter of the latter, enough to know that I disagree with it heartily. The fact is, a person who reads the Cliff's Notes of "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey", or skips them altogether, will be no worse off.

 

From your POV. I personally don't consider someone a truly educated person unless they have read and can discuss the classics including at least one of Homer's epics. If you are not able to participate in the Great Conversation, then you are definitely worse off for it.

[Hunter]

From your POV. I personally don't consider someone a truly educated person unless they have read and can discuss the classics including at least one of Homer's epics. If you are not able to participate in the Great Conversation, then you are definitely worse off for it.

 

Ouch! Are you including people of Eastern nations?

[Mandy in TN]

But really, could you explain to me why this is important? Would we be permanently messed up if we don't actually make it through the book? Does it lay the foundation for something yet to come or do people just enjoy these stories?

You have heard why people think it is important to read these books and I will put in another vote for the Rosemary Sutcliffe versions. OTOH- no you will not be permanently messed up if you skip it. Yes, they are referenced in other literature, plays, and movies, but your child will still be able to get into college, do well in college, and have a full and productive life if she never finishes them. If you both absolutely hate it, skip it!

Mandy

[regentrude]

Though they have little to no other relevance to modern society, the stories are of some historical interest. You won't be missing out on anything if you skip them, as long as your children receive cultural enrichment in some other way.

 

I disagree. Homeric epics are referenced throughout the ages in literature, music and art: Without Homer, you can't understand Vergil; without Vergil, you can't understand Dante. Shakespeare has frequent mythological references.

Same goes for Biblical references, which is why I think everybody growing up in a western tradition of civilization should have basic knowledge of the Bible, whether they are Christian or not.

Even many modern works can not be understood without an understanding of Homer. References in popular culture are abundant (Space Odyssey anybody? Trojan horse?)

 

Yes, I do believe you would miss out. That does not mean that your children need to learn this now, at this point in their lives. But to be an educated adult in a Western culture, knowledge about Greek mythology is necessary.

[crazyforlatin]

I just noticed that your daughter is in 8th grade, so I'm not sure if Osborne's books will fit her, although the audiobook is quite excellent and it doesn't seem like it's for younger kids if read aloud. However, Rosemary Sutcliff's books are about middle school level and are available as mp3s.

 

There are a lot of references to Homer's works, so if it is at all possible to work your way up, it'll be worthwhile. After the above audiobooks, you could try Geraldine McCaughrean's Odysseus in audiobook format and then Ian McKellan's Odysseus (audiobook)/Jacobi's Illiad (audiobook).

 

ETA: I'm suggesting audiobooks because DD listened to different versions for hours and days whereas I doubt I would have been able to read like the narrators.

Edited April 24, 2012 by crazyforlatin

[laundrycrisis]

From your POV. I personally don't consider someone a truly educated person unless they have read and can discuss the classics including at least one of Homer's epics. If you are not able to participate in the Great Conversation, then you are definitely worse off for it.

 

I may never meet your standards for being an educated person. I am not a literature person and I may never reach the point of being able to discuss any of Homer's classics. I am attempting to at least expose our kids (and myself) to them but I think discussion may be out of my league. On the other hand, I have an engineering degree and I had all the credit hours needed for a minor in math, I just didn't ask for the minor... so I am alright with myself...but I admit to secretly thinking that a person's math education is not thorough until they have been at least through differential equations :tongue_smilie: So I do consider that there are different types of educations that have value in different areas and for different people. But, I do want our kids to have more knowledge of these classics than I had (basically none).

[Iucounu]

I disagree. Homeric epics are referenced throughout the ages in literature, music and art: Without Homer, you can't understand Vergil; without Vergil, you can't understand Dante. Shakespeare has frequent mythological references.

Same goes for Biblical references, which is why I think everybody growing up in a western tradition of civilization should have basic knowledge of the Bible, whether they are Christian or not.

Even many modern works can not be understood without an understanding of Homer. References in popular culture are abundant (Space Odyssey anybody? Trojan horse?)

 

Yes, I do believe you would miss out. That does not mean that your children need to learn this now, at this point in their lives. But to be an educated adult in a Western culture, knowledge about Greek mythology is necessary.

Reading "The Iliad", "The Odyssey", etc. is wholly unnecessary to understand later references to Greek mythology. Nor is knowledge of Greek mythology necessary at all to be an educated adult in today's culture.

 

Reading Dante is unnecessary to be an educated, fulfilled human being as well; and if one chooses to read Dante or anything else with understanding, one need not recursively search backwards for other referenced works and read them first. It's enough to learn a summary of the information referred to instead of reading the full text.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Iucounu

[Iucounu]

From your POV. I personally don't consider someone a truly educated person unless they have read and can discuss the classics including at least one of Homer's epics.

I personally think that's a silly standard, without much application to modern life. Similarly to the way we need not discuss cave paintings and all the other products of the human mind that led up to what you call part of the "Great Conversation", we need not even know of Homer's existence to discuss great works of more modern art which don't explicitly refer to Homer or directly incorporate his work. And in-jokes and cultural references do not need actual in-depth knowledge of the source material to understand either, if they even constituted the most important part of a later work (if they did one could fairly call it derivative and worthless).

 

I just don't buy it, sorry.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Iucounu

[regentrude]

Nor is knowledge of Greek mythology necessary at all to be an educated adult in today's culture.

 

We can only agree to disagree. Your idea of educated obviously differs from mine.

(btw, were you thinking of ordinary or partial diff eq?)

[ElizaG]

The fact is, a person who reads the Cliff's Notes of "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey", or skips them altogether, will be no worse off.

This is true for some nonstandard definitions of fact, where (in fact) fact = opinion.

 

I find this opinion (among many) more convincing:

 

The Benefits of a Classical Education

[kalanamak]

Yeah, I would try anything to make it easier before giving up. I forgot about the Sutcliff versions. They are good! I'll have to check out the audio you suggested!

 

My son liked the Olivia Coolidge versions best. And the audio recordings by Naxos. I think we hear them 50 times. Benjamin Soames reading Benedict Flynn. Amazon has them.

[Abbeygurl4]

Here is an article from Memoria Press:

http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/Spring%2008/iliad.html

[Snickerdoodle]

My son liked the Olivia Coolidge versions best. And the audio recordings by Naxos. I think we hear them 50 times. Benjamin Soames reading Benedict Flynn. Amazon has them.

 

Mine absolutely loved the Naxos audio versions. Benjamin Soames has a lovely voice.

[hsmom2011]

I purchased The Children's Homer for dd (11), and she handed it back to me after looking at the first few pages. After looking through it myself, I honestly didn't blame her. I don't force it, she reads pleny of great literature. She read about Homer in SOTW 1, Kingfisher, and probably other resources we have here as well. If she has no interest beyond that, I think it's enough. Dd loves History, and I don't want to kill that love by forcing her to read a book she is not going to enjoy. :)

[Iucounu]

This is true for some nonstandard definitions of fact, where (in fact) fact = opinion.

 

I find this opinion (among many) more convincing:

 

The Benefits of a Classical Education

Yes, I am sure that just about anyone can find a webpage to support their deeply held convictions. Nonetheless, for each successful person one can find who studied Latin and Greek, engaged in the "Great Conversation" or whatever is the catchy term of the day for historical works of art from long ago read in their original ancient dead languages, etc. etc. etc., there are scads that didn't do those things. The only logical conclusion is that the "Great Conversation" is in no way necessary to be a fulfilled, successful, intelligent human being in modern times, no matter how much some of us may like to study these things.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Iucounu

[Iucounu]

I purchased The Children's Homer for dd (11), and she handed it back to me after looking at the first few pages. After looking through it myself, I honestly didn't blame her. I don't force it, she reads pleny of great literature. She read about Homer in SOTW 1, Kingfisher, and probably other resources we have here as well. If she has no interest beyond that, I think it's enough. Dd loves History, and I don't want to kill that love by forcing her to read a book she is not going to enjoy. :)

That about nails it. There are now so many great books to read, that there is not time in one's life to fully appreciate them all. Works from antiquity are certainly not without value, but they're not the only ones with value either.

[Iucounu]

We can only agree to disagree. Your idea of educated obviously differs from mine.

Obviously. However, I will freely admit that in-depth knowledge of Greek mythology confers some benefits in a modern "Cash Cab" context, and perhaps several others.

[ElizaG]

Yes, I am sure that just about anyone can find a webpage to support their deeply held convictions.

Yes, and just about anyone can find a web forum where they can post their opinion (and claim it as fact). But if you're going to come on a classical education board and say (more or less) that classical education is pointless, you might want to give more support than "because I said so."

 

Nonetheless, for each successful person one can find who studied Latin and Greek, engaged in the "Great Conversation" or whatever is the catchy term of the day for historical works of art from long ago read in their original ancient dead languages, etc. etc. etc., there are scads that didn't do those things. The only logical conclusion is that the "Great Conversation" is in no way necessary to be a fulfilled, successful, intelligent human being in modern times, no matter how much some of us may like to study these things.

I'd be interested in your definition of success and fulfillment. It seems highly relevant to the question at hand.

 

(FWIW, this is a conversational topic that the ancients loved. One of the "great" ones. And whether you study them in ancient languages or in English, their ideas on the subject are still very much alive today.)

[Iucounu]

Yes, and just about anyone can find a web forum where they can post their opinion (and claim it as fact). But if you're going to come on a classical education board and say (more or less) that classical education is pointless, you might want to give more support than "because I said so."

 

I'd be interested in your definition of success and fulfillment. It seems highly relevant to the question at hand.

 

(FWIW, this is a conversational topic that the ancients loved. One of the "great" ones. And whether you study them in ancient languages or in English, their ideas on the subject are still very much alive today.)

Let's put it this way: prove that the Great Conversation is necessary to be a successful, intelligent, fulfilled human being, and maybe you'll have something. Until then, you've merely overstated the benefits of learning ancient Greek and Latin. Self-serving opinion pieces won't suffice; you'll have to disprove the value of every lifestyle not engaging in the Great Conversation.

[chepyl]

I picked up a children's version of Homer and read the first chapter aloud...I greatly prefer the translation of the actual work we read in 9th grade! I loved the poetry. This prose version was blah!

[ElizaG]

Let's put it this way: prove that the Great Conversation is necessary to be a successful, intelligent, fulfilled human being, and maybe you'll have something. Until then, you've merely overstated the benefits of learning ancient Greek and Latin. Self-serving opinion pieces won't suffice; you'll have to disprove the value of every lifestyle not engaging in the Great Conversation.

But this subject itself is part of the Great Conversation. (*) You're engaging in it already, whether you want to or not. ;)

 

A more on-target question might be: does a familiarity with the Greek and Latin classics allow human beings to participate more actively and deeply in this conversation?

 

Or, to put it in terms you've used: is it likely to enable them to be more successful or fulfilled than they would otherwise be?

 

 

(*) ETA link to Chapter 1 of The Great Conversation by Robert Hutchins (Britannica, 1952). Not posting this as a source of argument -- there are areas where I don't fully agree with Hutchins myself -- but just to clarify the way the term is used, i.e. as the ongoing exchange of ideas throughout Western intellectual history.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Eleanor

[Iucounu]

But this subject itself is part of the Great Conversation. You're engaging in it already, whether you want to or not. ;)

Nah.

 

A more on-target question might be: does a familiarity with the Greek and Latin classics allow human beings to participate more actively and deeply in this conversation?

It certainly allows one to sprinkle conversation with references to Greek and Latin classics, but it doesn't as far as I can tell actually confer any benefit in rational thought that is not able to be gained in a number of other ways. Most of the highly intelligent people I've known have not studied ancient Greek and Latin in any depth; more have studied modern languages and the great works written in those languages, but I doubt that it's necessary to study any foreign languages at all in order to be a highly intelligent, successful human being in today's society. Most people in the U.S. who study foreign languages in high school and college seem to let those skills fall away afterward.

[ElizaG]

Nah.

:001_huh: Not sure how the Wikipedia entry -- which looks to be based largely on Hutchins' use of the term -- is supposed to contradict his own writings that I linked to.

 

Here's another, more recent example:

 

The Culture Wars and the Great Conversation (Shattering the Silences, pbs.org)

 

'These "culture wars," however, are only the current incarnation of what in gentler times (the 1950s!) was called "The Great Conversation," an argument about education and citizenship, and about individual freedom and social order, stretching back over the centuries at least to Socrates's strictures on what the poets should and should not say about the gods. (...) So the Culture Wars rage, fueled by munitions imported from Burke, Foucault, and Fanon. As the hyperlinks in this essay suggest, the great conversation is now on the Internet, which will reward the interested Nethead with days, weeks, or years of stimulating information and argument.'

 

That was in 1997. Makes me nostalgic for the Lynx browser and my 1200 baud modem. :) Anyway, I guess we are all "Netheads" now.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Eleanor

[Embassy]

Could someone please tell me why it's important to read about Greek stories by Homer, The Illiad, the Odyssey and the like? My dd and I tried getting through A Children's Homer and it was not pretty. We couldn't keep track of who was who and who was related to whom, etc. So a friend suggested trying The Trojan War by Olivia Coolidge. I must say it's better (clearer) than A Children's Homer but we still find it somewhat tedious and not exciting (still trying to remember who is whom but I appreciate the pronunciation guide of sorts in the back with a brief blurb of who is who).

 

But really, could you explain to me why this is important? Would we be permanently messed up if we don't actually make it through the book? Does it lay the foundation for something yet to come or do people just enjoy these stories?

 

I went through a Christian school that didn't teach anything about ancient Greek stories - nothing in elementary, middle, or high school. I didn't get it in college either. However standardized tests that I took assumed knowledge of these stories. I remember having no idea about the answers to several questions on the ACT and the GRE because I had no knowledge of stories from ancient Greece.

 

In addition, it is helpful to know these stories in everyday life. References to these ancient stories appear in our culture. I don't think a person has to have an in depth understanding, but something is far better than nothing.

[sahm99]

Most of the highly intelligent people I've known have not studied ancient Greek and Latin in any depth; ... I doubt that it's necessary to study any foreign languages at all in order to be a highly intelligent, successful human being in today's society.

 

You seem to be the only one talking about "intelligent people"... others speak about "educated people".

This is not the same. I would go further, saying that there seems to be amazingly little correlation...

Growing up in any culture without a firm knowledge of its past doesn't make you less intelligent, it makes you poorly educated.

 

As far as your "successful" is concerned...if it means becoming rich in the US...you are probably right.

 

About languages: Living in the 21st century, with access to education, without learning a modern foreign language, is a failure in my book.

 

I guess we don't have the same ideals for our kids.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Could someone please tell me why it's important to read about Greek stories by Homer, The Illiad, the Odyssey and the like? My dd and I tried getting through A Children's Homer and it was not pretty. We couldn't keep track of who was who and who was related to whom, etc. So a friend suggested trying The Trojan War by Olivia Coolidge. I must say it's better (clearer) than A Children's Homer but we still find it somewhat tedious and not exciting (still trying to remember who is whom but I appreciate the pronunciation guide of sorts in the back with a brief blurb of who is who).

 

But really, could you explain to me why this is important? Would we be permanently messed up if we don't actually make it through the book? Does it lay the foundation for something yet to come or do people just enjoy these stories?

 

By virtue of the fact that they are part of the Western Canon they have value. That a student who is familiar with them will see and hear references to them their entire life and understand where they came from as well as the fact that they are just fantastic stories.

I can't stand any of the versions you mentioned, so I understand the antipathy. How about trying the Rosemary Sutcliffe, Alan Lee illustrated Black Ships Before Troy and the Wanderings of Odysseus? Those are our favorites/

Mary Pope Osborne's, Tales from the Odyssey was a huge hit here too.

[Kathryn]

Agree. I don't think you're working off of the same definitions of the terms you're using as those who believe in the value of engaging in the "Great Conversation." Halfway finishing the first chapter of a book about classical education doesn't really arm you well to discuss those terms.

 

You seem to be the only one talking about "intelligent people"... others speak about "educated people".

This is not the same. I would go further, saying that there seems to be amazingly little correlation...

Growing up in any culture without a firm knowledge of its past doesn't make you less intelligent, it makes you poorly educated.

 

As far as your "successful" is concerned...if it means becoming rich in the US...you are probably right.

 

About languages: Living in the 21st century, with access to education, without learning a modern foreign language, is a failure in my book.

 

I guess we don't have the same ideals for our kids.

[kareng]

I just noticed that your daughter is in 8th grade, so I'm not sure if Osborne's books will fit her, although the audiobook is quite excellent and it doesn't seem like it's for younger kids if read aloud. However, Rosemary Sutcliff's books are about middle school level and are available as mp3s.

 

There are a lot of references to Homer's works, so if it is at all possible to work your way up, it'll be worthwhile. After the above audiobooks, you could try Geraldine McCaughrean's Odysseus in audiobook format and then Ian McKellan's Odysseus (audiobook)/Jacobi's Illiad (audiobook).

 

ETA: I'm suggesting audiobooks because DD listened to different versions for hours and days whereas I doubt I would have been able to read like the narrators.

 

WOW. I guess I sparked quite a "discussion"!

 

Thank you for all the reasons you value learning about Hector, Odysseus and all the gods of the Greeks and Trojans.

 

I plan to look into the resources that you mentioned. I didn't realize there were so many versions both audio and written!

 

By the way, although my dd is 14 and in 8th grade, she has dyslexia and some other processing issues going on (which we only recently discovered), so her ability to hear and process is probably much less than whatever your "typical" 8th grader could do. We will not be doing Latin or Greek nor any other foreign language as she most likely couldn't process it. She has enough issues with her native English language. If we do anything, it will be American sign language. I say all that to say that the sources listed above for younger students may very well be the ones that will click with her, more simple, more direct. I am also very interested in the audio books mentioned. We have used them to "read" The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy as well as most of The Chronicles of Narnia. It was a great way to get through some material with difficult names (for me) and it made it such fun to listen to.

[brownie]

They may be important to our culture, but so are many books and you are never going to read them all. So if they make your kid miserable, give it up for now. As long as there is stuff you enjoy, you are blessed with a child who will get a wonderful education without these books. I feel I had a great education but I never read those books. Think about how few books you study in a year's English class! In High School lit we may have hit 6 a year and a bunch of essays in poetry. In college we got 4 in our required semester English class (King Lear, Moby Dick, Gulliver's Travels, and I can't remember the fourth!). None of these happened to come up in my classes(though lots of Shakespeare did!) And since I wasn't a liberal arts major, that was the end of English Lit!

 

Brownie

[Kathryn]

I HIGHLY recommend Sutcliffe's "Black Ships Before Troy" and "The Wanderings of Odysseus," the *illustrated* versions. They are gorgeous and really bring the stories to life. My library had both.

 

WOW. I guess I sparked quite a "discussion"!

 

Thank you for all the reasons you value learning about Hector, Odysseus and all the gods of the Greeks and Trojans.

 

I plan to look into the resources that you mentioned. I didn't realize there were so many versions both audio and written!

 

By the way, although my dd is 14 and in 8th grade, she has dyslexia and some other processing issues going on (which we only recently discovered), so her ability to hear and process is probably much less than whatever your "typical" 8th grader could do. We will not be doing Latin or Greek nor any other foreign language as she most likely couldn't process it. She has enough issues with her native English language. If we do anything, it will be American sign language. I say all that to say that the sources listed above for younger students may very well be the ones that will click with her, more simple, more direct. I am also very interested in the audio books mentioned. We have used them to "read" The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy as well as most of The Chronicles of Narnia. It was a great way to get through some material with difficult names (for me) and it made it such fun to listen to.