Thoughts on "Zero Tolerance"?

[ktgrok]

You can say whatever "make sense" but the PS have too many mix type of people. If the policy can prevent one single kid get killed or been bullied. IMO, It worth it

I agree some of the zero tolerance went too far.. like the lego gun. But I am in general supporting it. Some of us actually have kids still in school and in danger of been hurt if someone violate the policy, wave a knife in front of our kid or pull out a gun to show off have we don't have this policy ..

 

But, if you are saying there are exceptions, like the lego gun, then it isn't zero tolerance at all anymore. If you support exceptions and using common sense then you don't support zero tolerance. The two are mutually exclusive.

[5kidsforME]

Zero tolerance has given people the excuse to act foolishly and harmfully and often, cruelly. It has given tyrannical powers to the dimwitted and the half-witted.

 

Yes, that little bit of power goes straight to the insecure persons head and they will. use. it.

[5kidsforME]

Succinctly said... and I agree with you.

 

A recent local example of ZT in action at the school in town: Grade 12 boy slams Grade 10 boy up against a locker and threatens to break his hands next time he catches Grade 10 boy pushing his little sister (also in Grade 10) part-way inside her locker and groping her. Grade 12 boy gets suspended and Grade 10 boy gets away with the groping not only that time, but all the times before and the several times since. Why? Because no one has seen the gropings other than the little sister and her word alone isn't good enough to take any action against the groper.

 

Little Sister, by the way, is in my 4H group and cries at the thought of having to go to school everyday. She has stomach aches (real ones) almost every morning because it makes her sick to think she might have a run-in with the groper. Her parents try to fight the suspension and nothing happens. They try all the time to get the groper punished and nothing happens.

 

Frankly, if that had been my boy defending any girl, I'd have given him a frikkin' medal for it. And, I would not shut up until I told every single teacher, administrator and trustee what shameful excuses for men and women they are to let such disgusting behaviour go on in that school, yet punish the one person who stands up for a defenseless little girl.

 

Even more frankly, if that had been my daughter getting groped and no one did anything about it, I'd take jail time for having kicked the groper's a$$ myself.

 

I agree with everything you are saying here. BUT why in the WORLD haven't her parents taken her out of school????

Edited February 22, 2012 by Momto4kids

[SKL]

Zero tolerance holds children to a higher standard than adults. How can that be OK?

[Bluegoat]

My guess is that a lot of the motivation behind these policies is CYA in case of litigation.

[clarkacademy]

I agree with everything you are saying here. BUT why in the WORLD haven't her parents taken her out of school????

 

 

That was my thought until... I remember back in the day, I never could have given up my financial means. I don't have it easy now by any standard but a few years back was nothing but struggle and I never could have quit my job and kept them home. Some people just can't

[kitten18]

 

On another note' date=' we are unable to send our child to our local public middle school because it's too dangerous. However, the high school is reputed to be fine as far as safety because there is a zero tolerance policy at the high school level.

 

Why can't they weed out the dangerous kids without zero tolerance? The things I've heard the middle school kids have done and gotten away with is astounding.[/quote']

My guess would be that the difference between the middle school and the high school is in the principals and not so much in the zero tolerance policy.

 

I taught at two different middle schools in the same district. The demographics were nearly identical. The schools were like night and day because of how the principals ran the schools. One was fantastic (a Blue Ribbon school), the other was a disaster.

 

 

BTW -- does anyone see the irony in ZT policies throwing kids out for Lego guns and plastic knives, but kids are allowed to walk around ALL DAY LONG with sharpened pencils and metal tipped pens? Not to mention all the 7 yr olds fashioning shivs from the sporks in the cafeteria. ;)

:lol: I taught Home Ec., my students used shears, seam rippers, pins, needles, irons, and knives.

[LucyStoner]

So, I don't understand this. We make the school and teachers take all the respoonsibilities. What about the parents? and the kids themselves. Why can they respect the rule in the school and respect OTHER kids. and not bring a knife to school. If he is a Eagle scout, he should have at least half brain?

As far as the teachers' brain. How can you prevent a kid lie about that he is a boy scout after he found with a knife and how do you know a boy scout will suddenly went nuts over something??

 

 

What part of "in the trunk of the car, not in his hand" is hard for a reasonably bright teacher to understand? If he had it in his backpack or pocket, I would agree with you. But in the trunk of a parked car? Seriously, it might as well be a mini lego gun. I could use any calculus textbook to whack someone upside the head with but that is not relevant unless I menace someone with it, is it?

[AdventureMoms]

That was my thought until... I remember back in the day, I never could have given up my financial means. I don't have it easy now by any standard but a few years back was nothing but struggle and I never could have quit my job and kept them home. Some people just can't

 

While I totally understand this for a younger child, a 10th grader is likely 15 years old at least. Ideally she could stay home and study, but even if she goofed off all day, I can't imagine any education being worth regular sexual harassment. My SIL quit school at 14 or 15 because of social issues (nothing as bad as this), and did a free online school from home for the rest of highschool. Her mom was a single working mom. (And SIL has now finished her AA and is working on her BA, mostly online courses).

[renmew]

Before the principal spoke to the boy, she kept ds out of the only class the two shared (gym) and told ds to duck into a classroom if he saw the boy to avoid him. She said, even though she knew about the texts and threats, if the boy started a fight with ds and ds did anything besides stand there and get hit, ds would be suspended as well. She said even if ds did just stand there and get hit, without even protecting himself, she might still be required to suspend him because there is zero tolerance for fighting.

 

What!!! No wonder we have so many more bullies than before. I'd rather be a bully myself than a victim, and it seems there is no middle ground any more. I will never teach my kids to stand there and get hit, or even to run away like that. You hit my kid, they WILL hit you right back!

 

I'd get the above in writing. It could prove very useful.

[renmew]

That was my thought until... I remember back in the day, I never could have given up my financial means. I don't have it easy now by any standard but a few years back was nothing but struggle and I never could have quit my job and kept them home. Some people just can't

 

If I were in this position, I would have my daughter stay home and home school herself. Then I'd do all of the teaching necessary at night, because no one would do this to my child again. I'm with the pp who said I'd trade jail time to beat the kid up myself. Dh would probably end up in jail for murder.

[5kidsforME]

If I were in this position, I would have my daughter stay home and home school herself. Then I'd do all of the teaching necessary at night, because no one would do this to my child again. I'm with the pp who said I'd trade jail time to beat the kid up myself. Dh would probably end up in jail for murder.

 

:iagree: I would rather my daughter be truant than be in that position over and over again.

[Farrar]

If the policy can prevent one single kid get killed or been bullied. IMO, It worth it

 

Really? Let's imagine that it did stop one kid from being bullied. And in the name of doing that, let's imagine that thousands of kids who have made mistakes like giving their kindergarten girlfriends a kiss or forgetting to take their boy scout pocket knife out of their bags get suspended and their parents go through red tape Kafka-land to get them out. Some of the kids end up depressed or convinced they're horrible kids. They're labeled. They're denied a proper education for a time - possibly even for months and months. Their parents lose time at work. Was it really worth that???

 

I don't jibe with this reasoning. Mistakes in a system, especially a system as vast as the schools, are inevitable. However, we shouldn't purposefully set up an inappropriate and unjust system of punishments just for the sake of trying to protect children. Systems like that hurt children. The children who are suspended in these situations are hurt too. In a democratic society, the government, and all its parts, has an obligation to strive to set up a system with proper due process. A zero tolerance policy or a three strikes and you're out policy or anything that doesn't allow for mitigating and aggravating factors to be considered is simply unjust. I do expect decision makers to be able to use common sense, even in a large school system. Principals are the judges of the schools, and I expect judges and school administrators to be able to evaluate cases on their merits.

[Amy1k]

AND zero tolerance policies don't make schools safer. Bad things still happen. People still get hurt. Drugs are still available. Zero tolerance is just something that makes them FEEL like they are controlling something that is out of their control.

[LucyStoner]

If the policy can prevent one single kid get killed or been bullied. IMO, It worth it

 

In practice, these policies are used to shield bullies and perpetuate the bullying culture in schools. Because there is no tolerance for the kids who lose their temper and rashly fight back but no "evidence" for the socially savvy bullies who wait until they are *just* out of sight. They do things like suspend the bully's target along with the bully for fighting in the rare instances action is taken against the bully.

[Catherine]

My friend's 5 yo (yes!) was suspended from kindergarten for 2 full weeks for "acting up" in the library. She was informed by the principal's secretary that the school had a "zero tolerance" policy for out of control behavior, so there was no appealing the decision and thus no need for her to talk to the principal or anyone else.

 

The boy enjoyed his 14 days of free play and reading aloud at home :lol:

[Donna]

In practice, these policies are used to shield bullies and perpetuate the bullying culture in schools. Because there is no tolerance for the kids who lose their temper and rashly fight back but no "evidence" for the socially savvy bullies who wait until they are *just* out of sight. They do things like suspend the bully's target along with the bully for fighting in the rare instances action is taken against the bully.

 

:iagree: It doesn't stop the bullying. It harms the person being bullied because they are unable to stick up for themselves. In the "old days" the kids getting picked on could give the bully a punch in the nose and then the bully would stop the incessant bullying. Now, there is no recourse for a good kid who doesn't want anything bad on his record because the reason why he might have fought back or defended himself is not included in the principal's decision making process...because there is no decision making process. It is one punishment fits all. I swear the more degrees those people get, the less brain they use.

 

What!!! No wonder we have so many more bullies than before. I'd rather be a bully myself than a victim, and it seems there is no middle ground any more. I will never teach my kids to stand there and get hit, or even to run away like that. You hit my kid, they WILL hit you right back!

I'd get the above in writing. It could prove very useful.

 

My ds would gladly hit back except, doing so would keep him from advancing in his sport championships because he'd be suspended. He also has dreams of attending the Naval Academy and is afraid to have anything bad/disciplinary on his school record. Hit back sounds like the way to go unless you're a kid who has plans and dreams for your future...probably the reason the boy is after him in the first place. Ds has been in the local newspaper which they put clips from on the wall at school for things he's done in wrestling.

 

btw...same boy on his first day back from suspension for the "bullying incident" with ds urinates in a bottle in the showers after gym class and dumps it over another boy's head then gets suspended for a few more days. Not the nicest boy in the school in the first place and could probably use someone giving it back to him. :glare:

[TravelingChris]

I know a good boy who is a freshman in high school locally here who got an out of school suspension and another punishment for the following event-

 

He was in science class and wanted to hear the teacher. He asked a girl sitting next to him to please be quiet. She took offense, drew back and smashed a heavy purse directly in his face, very hard, and then proceeded to start beating on him. This is in front of the teacher and the assistant who both supported his version of the events. He pushed the girl away as she was beating him for wanting to actually pay attention in class. ALthough both he and the two teachers testified he was the victim, she and her druggie friends testified differently.

 

Apparently his parents didn't know how to fight the system. I would have been bringing criminal charges against that girl, and then would be suing the school district. There is no way my kid who wants to learn is being attacked by hoodlums in class for wanting to learn. As the boy says, 95% of the kids in that school are fine- maybe not all wanting to learn, but they aren't problems. He was unfortunate to tangle with a 5%er. He is moving next month to another city.

 

Can you guess that I am against zero tolerance rules?

[Lizzie in Ma]

Well if you are taking anything into consideration then it's not zero tolerance. The point of zero tolerance is that there is no thought or consideration given.

 

So...yeah...I'm against it. ;)

 

:iagree::iagree:

[TravelingChris]

"Some of the kids end up depressed or convinced they're horrible kids. They're labeled. They're denied a proper education for a time - possibly even for months and month"

 

This was happening in my last area unfortunately too often. There was a rash of suicides in different high schools where the boys had been suspended and then the suicide. Suspensions in high school are very serious. They can easily derail a college acceptance and probably will preclude any scholarships that entail character aspects rather than just pure numbers (scores and GPA).

 

The bullying in school and these various incidents are what is keeping me homeschooling my very reluctant third kid. I just know she would be a victim what with wearing progressive lenses, having food allergies, and having joints pop all the time- oh and she has beautiful red hair too. SO even though many days I wonder how much she is learning- at least she is safe.

[Heather in Neverland]

Zero tolerance policies are for people who don't want to think, reason, understand nuance, shades of gray. Life is "easy" when everything is black and white. :glare:

[brightside]

Zero tolerance policies are for people who don't want to think, reason, understand nuance, shades of gray. Life is "easy" when everything is black and white. :glare:

 

:iagree: This sums it up exactly!!

[southcarolinamom]

Zero tolerance policies are for people who don't want to think, reason, understand nuance, shades of gray. Life is "easy" when everything is black and white. :glare:

 

:iagree:

[TXMomof4]

Really? Let's imagine that it did stop one kid from being bullied. And in the name of doing that, let's imagine that thousands of kids who have made mistakes like giving their kindergarten girlfriends a kiss or forgetting to take their boy scout pocket knife out of their bags get suspended and their parents go through red tape Kafka-land to get them out. Some of the kids end up depressed or convinced they're horrible kids. They're labeled. They're denied a proper education for a time - possibly even for months and months. Their parents lose time at work. Was it really worth that???

 

I don't jibe with this reasoning. Mistakes in a system, especially a system as vast as the schools, are inevitable. However, we shouldn't purposefully set up an inappropriate and unjust system of punishments just for the sake of trying to protect children. Systems like that hurt children. The children who are suspended in these situations are hurt too. In a democratic society, the government, and all its parts, has an obligation to strive to set up a system with proper due process. A zero tolerance policy or a three strikes and you're out policy or anything that doesn't allow for mitigating and aggravating factors to be considered is simply unjust. I do expect decision makers to be able to use common sense, even in a large school system. Principals are the judges of the schools, and I expect judges and school administrators to be able to evaluate cases on their merits.

 

ITA - the reality is these rules seem to protect the bullies more than the child being bullied.

[JMDRAD]

I guess I live under a rock or something. I was totally unaware of how bad this "zero tolerance" policy really is. It's so sad that I child can't even stick up for themselves. What happens as these kids, especially girls, become adults and they can't stick up for themselves. I've seen many women in abusive situations because they were never taught as kids to defend themselves. They were taught to obey their superiors no matter what. These women have little respect for themselves and they live in fear of who will harm them next. They can't even recognize that there are people out there that could help them. What a sick, twisted world we live in.

[SKL]

My nephew had a Zero-Tolerance incident. He was 14, in science class working on his science project. In his hand was a little piece of flexible rubber (wire insulation that he'd removed for the project). Some troublemaker thought it would be funny to bust up his project. He used his hands to push the kid away. The kid proceeded to pound on him and my nephew came away with a black eye and busted science project. Because he failed to put down the little piece of wire insulation before pushing back, he was expelled for using a "weapon" in school.

 

The expulsion was 6 months and would have prevented him from entering the International Bac..(sp?) gifted high school program which had accepted him.

 

His parents, who are not people of means, hired a lawyer and appealed. They called various witnesses - his teachers, pastor, boy scout leader, etc. He had to have a psychologist test him and testify. In the end, after months of agony, he won the appeal and was allowed to return to school just before the summer vacation.

 

The boy who gave him a black eye (and had a history of problems at school) was not expelled, because apparently a fist is not a weapon.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

My nephew had a Zero-Tolerance incident. He was 14, in science class working on his science project. In his hand was a little piece of flexible rubber (wire insulation that he'd removed for the project). Some troublemaker thought it would be funny to bust up his project. He used his hands to push the kid away. The kid proceeded to pound on him and my nephew came away with a black eye and busted science project. Because he failed to put down the little piece of wire insulation before pushing back, he was expelled for using a "weapon" in school.

 

The expulsion was 6 months and would have prevented him from entering the International Bac..(sp?) gifted high school program which had accepted him.

 

His parents, who are not people of means, hired a lawyer and appealed. They called various witnesses - his teachers, pastor, boy scout leader, etc. He had to have a psychologist test him and testify. In the end, after months of agony, he won the appeal and was allowed to return to school just before the summer vacation.

 

The boy who gave him a black eye (and had a history of problems at school) was not expelled, because apparently a fist is not a weapon.

 

 

Thank you for the reminder of one of the benefits of homeschooling-not having to deal with that sort of issue.

 

And while applaud the parents for fighting for their son-I can't believe they had to go to those lengths. Ok-I can believe it, it just really bothers me.

I'm against it because I think outside of the military, (where "do as you are told right now" seems a very good policy) people should actually think about what they are doing.

 

I wanted to add that, though military justice may be strict, it certainly isn't zero tolerance. From what I understand, at every procedure, from court martial on down, there is the equivalent of a judge or judges, who are required to use judgement and understand the circumstances of the situation, and, "to make the punishment fit the crime".