Negin Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Oh my gosh, Rosie, I love you!!! Red Dwarf is brilliant and it's so rare to run into other people who know it! Is it? Never seen it until now. I LOVE British TV. :D So cerebral and such an absolute blast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketgirl Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 To answer the OPs question, we decided to stop having children because we are so lucky to have the ones we do and because having children became a life or death struggle for me as a mother and for our babies, not just once but every time. For some reason my body tried to have my children born way too early, I started labor with my children at 29, 25, then 21 weeks and am so grateful that modern medicine was able to help keep my children from being born until 36 weeks and that they are all healthy children. I would love to have had more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Is it? Never seen it until now. I LOVE British TV. :D So cerebral and such an absolute blast! This isn't so cerebral as other programs I might think of, but yes, you've got the right show. :D It's best if you start at the beginning, and DON'T watch their latest 'Back to Earth' insult to past brilliance. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If people don't want kids or more kids, then that is valid enough for me. I don't have a problem with birth control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Aren't you from Germany? That country, and many others in Europe and Asia, are facing a "demographic winter" because women's fertility is far below replacement levels. No country has ever had long-term economic growth simultaneously with a shrinking population. Demographic winter is a real threat even here in the U.S. because the native-born population already has an average fertility rate below replacement level. The only thing that has kept us above 2.1 so far has been the higher fertility rate among immigrants. However, the biggest drop in the birth rate in recent years has been in Hispanic women, so it's unclear how long we'll be able to rely on them to keep our country out of demographic winter. All the individual decisions to have 1 child instead of 2, 2 instead of 3, and so on add up to a very serious economic problem for our country. :( You seem to be very hung up on this idea of it being "selfish" (your word) to discontinue having children. Couldn't it also be said that it would be "selfish" to continue to have children, yet rely on others to provide what is needed for them to thrive? How is it helping an economy to birth children who must rely on government assistance for food, clothing, shelter and other necessary expenses? In reality, it is far less drain on an economy to have working parents with fewer children, than fecund parents on assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 As far as the Demographic winter thing goes, I have heard of it and seen a book with that title on a vedor's shelf at the homeschool convention. Since I have not studied it, I can't comment on how valid it might be. What I can say is this-even if there is some sort of future economic threat due to lower birth rates, there is nothing I can do about it. What might happen at some point in the future does not change the fact that I live in the "now". My bills are due now, my fridge is looking empty now, I have to buy groceries this week, etc etc. We don't have a high income at all, and things are getting more and more tight in that regard. Groceries aren't lasting from payday to payday anymore and I need to re-evaluate that. Goodness knows, I can't spend more money on food. Oh and dh and I have no health insurance , so if I did have another baby I would go on Medicaid. Then I would be all in the wrong for being on public medical care. So, we are trying to be responsible in the life we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I agree. I feel like more people could help out our country's problems by adopting waiting children. We could be removing state responsibility, as well as raising productive future citizens whose lives are more bleak in foster care. The fact that there are millions of children in need of adoptive families. Tara As someone with 5 kids, it always bothers me when ppl talk about adopting vs giving birth. The implication of guilt for not adopting and choosing to give birth always bugs me, that a person is being selfish for choosing to reproduce, rather than adopt, esp if they have more than one child. How a couple builds their family is a completely personal choice. Choosing not to adopt is perfectly valid. Just as choosing TO adopt is. Or choosing not to raise children at all. There are a myriad of reasons why ppl decide to adopt, or not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not to mention adopting a child is difficult. There are so many hoops. I included that, mentally, when saying that there are many reasons ppl choose not to pursue adoption. Choosing to have a family, however it's done, is a completely personal choice. I dislike the inference that one is somehow more laudable than another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As someone with 5 kids, it always bothers me when ppl talk about adopting vs giving birth. The implication of guilt for not adopting and choosing to give birth always bugs me, that a person is being selfish for choosing to reproduce, rather than adopt, esp if they have more than one child. How a couple builds their family is a completely personal choice. Choosing not to adopt is perfectly valid. Just as choosing TO adopt is. Or choosing not to raise children at all. There are a myriad of reasons why ppl decide to adopt, or not to. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As someone with 5 kids, it always bothers me when ppl talk about adopting vs giving birth. The implication of guilt for not adopting and choosing to give birth always bugs me, that a person is being selfish for choosing to reproduce, rather than adopt, esp if they have more than one child. How a couple builds their family is a completely personal choice. Choosing not to adopt is perfectly valid. Just as choosing TO adopt is. Or choosing not to raise children at all. There are a myriad of reasons why ppl decide to adopt, or not to. :iagree: Except I do not have five kids. But I do have experience with adoption -- and it was good. But I resent it when people hold up adoption as a superior thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 All the individual decisions to have 1 child instead of 2, 2 instead of 3, and so on add up to a very serious economic problem for our country. :( :001_huh: You're kidding, right? This sounds like some sort of propaganda placard. I can't speak for anyone else, but I"m certainly not losing sleep at night worrying that my decision to have only one child is contributing to the downfall of our nation. At the very least, our carbon footprint is a fraction that of large families. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 You seem to be very hung up on this idea of it being "selfish" (your word) to discontinue having children. Couldn't it also be said that it would be "selfish" to continue to have children, yet rely on others to provide what is needed for them to thrive? How is it helping an economy to birth children who must rely on government assistance for food, clothing, shelter and other necessary expenses? In reality, it is far less drain on an economy to have working parents with fewer children, than fecund parents on assistance. YES. THIS. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) A lot of what is written about "demographic winter" seems eugenicist/racist to me. It always seems to boil down to "not enough of the right kind of people are reproducing." Plenty of people from other countries would like to emigrate to America. Why should I have more children than I want to have, just so that we can continue to be firm about not letting more of them in? Edited to add: I meant "a lot of what is written" in terms of opinion pieces I've seen about the topic. I'm not trying to imply anything about Crimson Wife in particular. Edited January 4, 2012 by Rivka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 A lot of what is written about "demographic winter" seems eugenicist/racist to me. It always seems to boil down to "not enough of the right kind of people are reproducing." Plenty of people from other countries would like to emigrate to America. Why should I have more children than I want to have, just so that we can continue to be firm about not letting more of them in? Well, okay. Yes, this is what I was intimating. I tried to couch it in more vague terms, but yes. This. Exactly. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 A lot of what is written about "demographic winter" seems eugenicist/racist to me. It always seems to boil down to "not enough of the right kind of people are reproducing." Plenty of people from other countries would like to emigrate to America. Why should I have more children than I want to have, just so that we can continue to be firm about not letting more of them in? :iagree: You went where I was thinking, too. Economics really has very, very little to do with the ideology behind "demographic winter." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Plenty of people from other countries would like to emigrate to America. Why should I have more children than I want to have, just so that we can continue to be firm about not letting more of them in? The last time I visited the US, I was hard pressed to find any people around. You have so much land and so few people. Take some of ours please :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The last time I visited the US, I was hard pressed to find any people around. You have so much land and so few people. Take some of ours please :D Not to highjack the thread but this made me :lol:! Anytime my in-laws visited us in the US from India they were so LONELY!! No one walking down the sidewalk during the day, no one ringing the bell...it seemed so isolated to them! We were just in typical suburbia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 :lol::lol::lol::lol: this thread is the best entertainment I have had all week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Welcome to Costco. I love you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As someone with 5 kids, it always bothers me when ppl talk about adopting vs giving birth. The implication of guilt for not adopting and choosing to give birth always bugs me, that a person is being selfish for choosing to reproduce, rather than adopt, esp if they have more than one child. How a couple builds their family is a completely personal choice. Choosing not to adopt is perfectly valid. Just as choosing TO adopt is. Or choosing not to raise children at all. There are a myriad of reasons why ppl decide to adopt, or not to. Sad fact....in most cases it is cheaper to reproduce than to adopt. I would adopt many more than the one we did, but we can't afford homestudy, adoptions fess, travel, etc.....yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 A lot of what is written about "demographic winter" seems eugenicist/racist to me. It always seems to boil down to "not enough of the right kind of people are reproducing." Plenty of people from other countries would like to emigrate to America. Why should I have more children than I want to have, just so that we can continue to be firm about not letting more of them in? Edited to add: I meant "a lot of what is written" in terms of opinion pieces I've seen about the topic. I'm not trying to imply anything about Crimson Wife in particular. :iagree: Even though I had never heard term "demographic winter," it smacked of same thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) As someone with 5 kids, it always bothers me when ppl talk about adopting vs giving birth. The implication of guilt for not adopting and choosing to give birth always bugs me, that a person is being selfish for choosing to reproduce, rather than adopt, esp if they have more than one child. How a couple builds their family is a completely personal choice. Choosing not to adopt is perfectly valid. Just as choosing TO adopt is. Or choosing not to raise children at all. There are a myriad of reasons why ppl decide to adopt, or not to. But I resent it when people hold up adoption as a superior thing to do. Fair enough, but first of all, I never implied adopting was in any way superior. This thread is called "Valid reasons for delaying or ceasing reproduction," not "Best ways to build a family." How is it that talking about adoption is perceived as an attack on choosing to have bio kids? That's akin to the idea that talking about homeschooling is an attack on traditional schooling. Second, there is a not-very-well disguised bias against adoption in this society, and it smacks my family in the face regularly. You know, the whole "You're not their real mom," "You shouldn't have adopted a sick kid," "I could never love an adopted child like my own" thing. Not to mention the "Your kid is black" thing. Third, the idea that one is selfish for wanting to have bio kids versus adopting is an exemplification of that aforementioned bias. Society tends to view adoptive parents in one of two ways: the saints who wanted to rescue a child or the pitiable infertiles who had to resort to adoption as their second (read: less desirable) choice. Neither of those categories define me. I am not infertile and I had no wish to be a child's savior. I merely wanted more kids and happened to find my kids somewhere other than my own womb. I see adoption as equal to, not better or less than, adoption ... for me AND for everyone else. It's also a devaluation of adopted kids themselves: damaged goods who would only be wanted by those with a savior complex or those who had no other choice. And lastly, adoption certainly is not for everyone. I completely recognize that. Adoptive families can face issues and have dynamics that don't apply to bio families. It can be very hard. I have not always pulled it off with grace. I'm NOT saying it takes a "special" type of person to adopt ... I'm merely acknowledging that adoption isn't right for everyone. It would be extremely stupid of me to try to guilt someone into adopting a child they don't want or building their family in a way that's not right for them. So please, before you accuse someone of being high and mighty about adopting ... just don't. Tara Edited January 4, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 :D:D:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 This is what happens when YOU stop producing your brilliant children: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Fair enough, but first of all, I never implied adopting was in any way superior. This thread is called "Valid reasons for delaying or ceasing reproduction," not "Best ways to build a family." How is it that talking about adoption is perceived as an attack on choosing to have bio kids? That's akin to the idea that talking about homeschooling is an attack on traditional schooling. Second, there is a not-very-well disguised bias against adoption in this society, and it smacks my family in the face regularly. You know, the whole "You're not their real mom," "You shouldn't have adopted a sick kid," "I could never love an adopted child like my own" thing. Not to mention the "Your kid is black" thing. Third, the idea that one is selfish for wanting to have bio kids versus adopting is an exemplification of that aforementioned bias. Society tends to view adoptive parents in one of two ways: the saints who wanted to rescue a child or the pitiable infertiles who had to resort to adoption as their second (read: less desirable) choice. Neither of those categories define me. I am not infertile and I had no wish to be a child's savior. I merely wanted more kids and happened to find my kids somewhere other than my own womb. I see adoption as equal to, not better or less than, adoption ... for me AND for everyone else. It's also a devaluation of adopted kids themselves: damaged goods who would only be wanted by those with a savior complex or those who had no other choice. And lastly, adoption certainly is not for everyone. I completely recognize that. Adoptive families can face issues and have dynamics that don't apply to bio families. It can be very hard. I have not always pulled it off with grace. I'm NOT saying it takes a "special" type of person to adopt ... I'm merely acknowledging that adoption isn't right for everyone. It would be extremely stupid of me to try to guilt someone into adopting a child they don't want or building their family in a way that's not right for them. So please, before you accuse someone of being high and mighty about adopting ... just don't. Tara Tara, we all have our biases based on experiences. I'm sorry I misinterpreted your 'tone'. I HAVE had ppl give me grief for choosing to have 5 children by birth, rather than adopt. Even my (acknowledged crazy) MIL told me off for getting pregnant with Princess, b/c I should adopt, not give birth again. I've been told that there are so many children in the world needing homes, how could I justify bringing another into the world, instead of adopting a child that is already here? So yeah, I've experienced the tone first hand. My dh *is* adopted. I totally understand what you're saying about ppl treating adoption as 2nd best. We've experienced that from all angles. As well as the biracial issue. Again, my apologies to you. I was reacting to a perception that I had developed from experience w/others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I appreciate everyone who shared their hearts in this thread. We may n ot all agree, but I love the fact that we can have these discussions here at the Hive. Hugs to you all and your families....whatever size, color, or shape. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negin Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I adore that movie. I think I've seen it about 100 times. I think I'm due for another viewing. :D What movie? I want to see it! :) This is what happens when YOU stop producing your brilliant children: :lol: You'll love it! I think Lister is one of the funniest characters ever written. Yet another boxed set to add to my wish list. :D this thread is the best entertainment I have had all week. :iagree: A lot of what is written about "demographic winter" seems eugenicist/racist to me. It always seems to boil down to "not enough of the right kind of people are reproducing." This. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I was reacting to a perception that I had developed from experience w/others. :grouphug: Me too. Don't you just want to kiss some people? The ones who get in your business and no matter what you do, you're d@mned. *sigh* My own mother said to me, "Why would you adopt when you can have your own?" Translation: "Why would you want a second-best kid?" + "An adopted child isn't really your own." Grrr. I "know" you, Imp, and I should have given you more credit. My apologies. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 :grouphug: Me too. Don't you just want to kiss some people? The ones who get in your business and no matter what you do, you're d@mned. *sigh* My own mother said to me, "Why would you adopt when you can have your own?" Translation: "Why would you want a second-best kid?" + "An adopted child isn't really your own." Grrr. I "know" you, Imp, and I should have given you more credit. My apologies. Tara 'Kiss' isn't exactly the thought I had in mind. Tempting to gob on the side of their heads, though. :lol: Wolf and I were seriously considering adoption at one point, and we may again. My mother made similar comments as yours...why would we adopt when we've had, and could have, 'our own'? I pointed out that if we adopt, the child WOULD BE our own. Period. No worries, Tara. Now that we've apologized to each other, should we hold hands and sing 'Kum By Ya' or 'Give Peace a Chance'? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Now that we've apologized to each other, should we hold hands and sing 'Kum By Ya' or 'Give Peace a Chance'? :lol: My dd17 and I watched the entire series of Gilmore Girls together. In one part, the token troubled teen and his savior uncle, who takes him in despite his being damaged goods ;) , often don't get along. The token troubled teen always tells his uncle that they should "hold hands and skip." So I think we should hold hands and skip. :D (Whenever dd17 and I aren't getting along, I suggest holding hands and skipping, which makes her laugh.) Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My dd17 and I watched the entire series of Gilmore Girls together. In one part, the token troubled teen and his savior uncle, who takes him in despite his being damaged goods ;) , often don't get along. The token troubled teen always tells his uncle that they should "hold hands and skip." So I think we should hold hands and skip. :D (Whenever dd17 and I aren't getting along, I suggest holding hands and skipping, which makes her laugh.) Tara Hmmm...jumping isn't good for my arm. How about hold hands and sway? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 How about hold hands and sway? :D Awesomeness. :D Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma aimee Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I do not believe there is a valid reason to use artificial birth control. :iagree: abstaining is always an option. AND if there is a reall "need" not to have another baby --- then the only 100% sure way not to get preggo is to not do the deed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 So I think we should hold hands and skip. :D Tara Can I join in? Tara, I was only agreeing with what Impish said, and not meaning to make you feel badly. I'm sorry. Her bold print jumped out at me and the statements she made on adoption were much the same as my feelings. I know wonderful people who have adopted with or without pursuing fertility treatments before going that route. But I know some who did it as an absolute last resort and well, now they can at least feel like they rescued kids. I'm sorry you've experienced the hurtful comments about adoption from people. I know, personally, how tough it is to deal with comments about adoption, race, and culture. I never meant to imply that you are high and mighty about it. But I usually do blunder in conversations about adoption. My feelings about it are neither entirely positive or negative but they are very deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Can I join in? Of course! :grouphug: Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 :iagree: abstaining is always an option. AND if there is a reall "need" not to have another baby --- then the only 100% sure way not to get preggo is to not do the deed :svengo: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Not to highjack the thread but this made me :lol:! Anytime my in-laws visited us in the US from India they were so LONELY!! No one walking down the sidewalk during the day, no one ringing the bell...it seemed so isolated to them! We were just in typical suburbia! I can relate. Among the first things most Indians will tell you after returning from the US is that the streets are so empty and that there is no one around as far as the eye can see. :001_smile: This sparseness in population is probably the case with most developed nations in the world. It is therefore hard to not notice the correlation between lesser population and better living standards. I realise correlation is not causation, but I think it at least makes a compelling case for checking population growth as a means to improve standards of living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda in TX Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 When either person in a couple decides they don't want to have children, or the couple decides they are financially unable to support more children. I mean, really, are there any invalid reasons to cease having kids? If someone has a reason for not wanting more, that should be it. The bolded is the reason we only have two. I still wish we had more, but DH was adamant about stopping at two, so we did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah C. Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 My dd17 and I watched the entire series of Gilmore Girls together. In one part, the token troubled teen and his savior uncle, who takes him in despite his being damaged goods ;) , often don't get along. The token troubled teen always tells his uncle that they should "hold hands and skip." So I think we should hold hands and skip. :D And after we do that, can we watch more Gilmore Girls??? :D (LOVE Gilmore Girls. Own all the seasons - thanks, Amazon, Half Price, Mom, and Grandma. ;)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negin Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Idiocracy Thank you. Nice title. :D This sparseness in population is probably the case with most developed nations in the world. It is therefore hard to not notice the correlation between lesser population and better living standards. I realise correlation is not causation, but I think it at least makes a compelling case for checking population growth as a means to improve standards of living. :iagree: A lot of what is written about "demographic winter" seems eugenicist/racist to me. It always seems to boil down to "not enough of the right kind of people are reproducing." I remember once reading how people's attitudes differ towards having many children. If that family in Iowa (can't remember their names) have septulets, it's all sweet and nice. But if a woman in Darfur/Mumbai/you name it has seven children, suddenly everyone is quite uncomfortable with that. The demographic winter thing really does seem racist to me also. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 May be late to the game on this one, but for me all 3 were premature with NICU stays ranging from 5 days to 49 days, with no known cause for the prematurity and no known interventions worked to prevent each subsequent birth from happening early. I would love one more, but am not willing to risk another premature birth. The outcome is so uncertain and I prefer not to gamble with a future child's life in that manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.