Memoria Press response to Limbaugh (classical studies)

[Michele B]

http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/responserush2011.html

[Zoo Keeper]

Poor Rush. Maybe he should order some of Memoria's courses and brush up. :001_smile: At least it might expand his vocabulary.

[Michele B]

I don't mean to offend anyone who really likes Rush by posting this response. Mr. Cothran's arguments are more interesting to me than what Rush did or didn't say or mean. It always helps me refine my own opinions about education when I read something this well written. I really have liked everything I have read by Mr. Cothran!

[Mrs Twain]

I understand what Rush is saying. He says that we should be practical about our educational programs, specifically which major one should choose in college. This is particularly important because of how much college and post-graduate education cost. We shouldn't waste endless time and money teaching subjects or blocks of information just because some academics say they are "classical." Even the Memoria Press article admits that a lot of classical studies programs currently in the colleges are bad.

 

If one can't get a job with a classical studies degree, then why not major in something else that is useful and read the classics in spare time?

[Happy2BaMom]

If one can't get a job with a classical studies degree, then why not major in something else that is useful and read the classics in spare time?

It sounds as if you are saying that the only point of college (and therefore, higher education) is to enable one to get a job....that is very different than learning how to think (and, therefore, being prepared for all the jobs in the future that do not even exist right now). Classical studies, among many other 'non-useful' studies, are very good ways to learn how to think, especially when taught and mentored correctly...

 

It doesn't sound like you read the article posted above, which is a very strong counterargument to Rush and the "vocational training" argument.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Happy2BaMom

[Michele B]

I understand what Rush is saying. He says that we should be practical about our educational programs, specifically which major one should choose in college. This is particularly important because of how much college and post-graduate education cost. We shouldn't waste endless time and money teaching subjects or blocks of information just because some academics say they are "classical." Even the Memoria Press article admits that a lot of classical studies programs currently in the colleges are bad.

 

If one can't get a job with a classical studies degree, then why not major in something else that is useful and read the classics in spare time?

 

Right, Mr. Cothran does state there are some serious problems with the college system. But the "point" of college is/was, to some, different than the "point" of a technical or trade school. Someone pursuing a college degree should, in the view of some, be participating in the "passing on of the best in a culture", NOT preparing for a specific career. We joked about this in our house a week or so ago. My husband set up the girls' science experiment and claimed his time in graduate school prepared him for this. His master's is in Anglo-Saxon literaure! He claims it broadened his mind. He is a judge now, having gone to law school as his trade school.

 

I think there is a difference in the ideas of college vs. trade school. Not that one cannot go to both or only some are smart enough, but they have different ends.

 

If you pursue a classical studies or philosophy program expecting it to put food on the table, you are at fault. If you get a technical degree in plumbing (boy, that would come in handy around our house!) you will probably get a job, but it will not prepare you to analyze the Iliad or understand the principles at work in the Constitution. See? Two different ends.

 

Well, that's how it looks to me at the moment....always subject to change:lol:

 

ETA:I don't mean that all college majors are impractical!

Edited November 23, 2011 by Michele B

[Michele B]

Part of the problem may be our expectation that everyone NEEDS to go to a 4-year college. Why? I am very happy with my English major and the post-graduate work I did in German, but my sister was MISERABLE in college. She is now a mommy of two little girls and is a personal trainer and manager of a gym. She has incredible management skills - she did not learn those in college -she could have maybe, but she didn't. She has no desire to read classics, but she is not stupid by a long shot.

 

Everyone does not fit into the "college box." And when you change college trying to make college fit everyone, you have a mess.

 

Am I rambling?:tongue_smilie:

Edited November 23, 2011 by Michele B

[Mrs Twain]

I don't mean to say that no one should study the classics or learn "how to think." I am only coming at this from a practical standpoint as I think Rush was. My husband and I have to pay for my kids' college education, unless we make them pay for it. We would rather not spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for our kids to get degrees with which they will not be able to support themselves.

 

As for examples, I can tell you about many kids I know who pursued degrees according to their interests. When they got into the real world and couldn't find a job, they had to go back to college to get a degree in something else that was practical. They would have saved their parents a huge amount of money had they thought through this issue more logically before they went to college.

 

Besides, hopefully I am giving them a classical education and teaching them how to think through my homeschool. Why do my kids necessarily have to go to college in order to learn how to think? I plan to teach them how to think before they get to college so they can use their time there toward an education that will help them survive in the world (and not waste all of my money).

 

If college were cheap, I would be all for classical studies degrees in college.

[go_go_gadget]

I think there's an important distinction to be made between "studying the classics" and "majoring in the classics". Everyone can benefit from studying the classics, but there are very few jobs that specifically require a degree in the classics. Ideally, the general education portion of every degree would include classical studies, but there's very little call for more than that in terms of employment, and it's also possible to continue self-educating after attaining a "practical" degree. So while I roll my eyes at his vitriol, I can see where Limbaugh is coming from to an extent.

 

OT, but if you'd asked me this morning what my plans were for the day, "partially defending Rush Limbaugh" would not have been on the list. Funny old world.

[Michele B]

I think there's an important distinction to be made between "studying the classics" and "majoring in the classics". Everyone can benefit from studying the classics, but there are very few jobs that specifically require a degree in the classics. Ideally, the general education portion of every degree would include classical studies, but there's very little call for more than that in terms of employment, and it's also possible to continue self-educating after attaining a "practical" degree. So while I roll my eyes at his vitriol, I can see where Limbaugh is coming from to an extent.

 

OT, but if you'd asked me this morning what my plans were for the day, "partially defending Rush Limbaugh" would not have been on the list. Funny old world.

 

I certainly agree!

But I would also draw a distinction between 1. majoring in the classics because of a passion and 2. majoring in the classics and then whining because the job offers are not rolling in. The latter was the case with the young person Rush was railing against.

 

I have two acquaintances who were classics majors. One currently teaches at a private boys' school while also being in the military and an Anglo-Catholic priest. The other is also a priest, and over the years I have known him has always had one or two jobs in addition. They are both still passionate about classics while being realistic about money.

And as I mentioned in an earlier reply, my husband's master's is in...Beowulf. Yep, Beowulf. He then went to law school and is now a judge. (And after almost 25 years, he still manages to work Beowulf into everyday conversation...everday) Beowulf=Passion, Law=Food

So I think classics (and Anglo-Saxon) are great, but you should not count on it for your bread and butter!:)

Edited November 24, 2011 by Michele B

[kalanamak]

Poor Rush. Maybe he should order some of Memoria's courses and brush up. :001_smile: At least it might expand his vocabulary.

 

Pay him to talk like he hosted Firing Line and he might suddenly expand his vocabulary. However, if he gets attention and bucks for what he does, well, Lowest Common Denominator, baby.

 

If I had to talk like that on the air, I'd chorf the Percosets, too.

[Shawna in Texas]

Pay him to talk like he hosted Firing Line and he might suddenly expand his vocabulary. However, if he gets attention and bucks for what he does, well, Lowest Common Denominator, baby.

 

If I had to talk like that on the air, I'd chorf the Percosets, too.

 

Chorf. New favorite word.

[macpuffins]

If I had to talk like that on the air, I'd chorf the Percosets, too.

 

:iagree: Though I'll go one further: If I had to talk like that in public, I'd be chorfing <new word, love> the Percs too!

[RootAnn]

I understand what Rush is saying. He says that we should be practical about our educational programs, specifically which major one should choose in college. This is particularly important because of how much college and post-graduate education cost. We shouldn't waste endless time and money teaching subjects or blocks of information just because some academics say they are "classical." Even the Memoria Press article admits that a lot of classical studies programs currently in the colleges are bad.

 

If one can't get a job with a classical studies degree, then why not major in something else that is useful and read the classics in spare time?

 

:iagree:

 

It sounds as if you are saying that the only point of college (and therefore, higher education) is to enable one to get a job....that is very different than learning how to think (and, therefore, being prepared for all the jobs in the future that do not even exist right now). Classical studies, among many other 'non-useful' studies, are very good ways to learn how to think, especially when taught and mentored correctly...

 

It doesn't sound like you read the article posted above, which is a very strong counterargument to Rush and the "vocational training" argument.

 

IMO, one of the main points of college is to learn something useful in order to get a job.

 

Someone pursuing a college degree should, in the view of some, be participating in the "passing on of the best in a culture", NOT preparing for a specific career.[/i]

 

For better or worse, this is not the point of college anymore. At least, not for what it costs now.

 

Part of the problem may be our expectation that everyone NEEDS to go to a 4-year college. Why?

 

Everyone does not fit into the "college box." And when you change college trying to make college fit everyone, you have a mess.

 

:iagree:

 

As for examples, I can tell you about many kids I know who pursued degrees according to their interests. When they got into the real world and couldn't find a job, they had to go back to college to get a degree in something else that was practical.

 

:iagree: Most of the ones my age who did this didn't go back to college. They are bar-maids, temp workers, or work at Crate & Barrel or Bed, Bath, & Beyond.

 

Besides, hopefully I am giving them a classical education and teaching them how to think through my homeschool. Why do my kids necessarily have to go to college in order to learn how to think? I plan to teach them how to think before they get to college so they can use their time there toward an education that will help them survive in the world (and not waste all of my money).

 

:iagree: Although, I'm far enough away from high school for my kids that I can still unrealistically believe I can do this. I'm not sure how it'll work in practice. :tongue_smilie: Oh, and I'm not paying for their college.

[lewelma]

The ancient scholars, the founding fathers, and the classically trained men of the Victorian age were all wealthy. Perhaps they could study the classics in University because they did not need to earn money.

 

Ruth in NZ

[MyLittleBears]

I love how it's alright to make fun of someone's addiction/affliction if he's a private citizen with a public voice, but how dare we scrutize anything said or done by anyone that can actually create policies that actually effect us.

 

 

 

This article reminded me of the callers who accussed him of wanting to kill the baby turtles when he said something to that effect in jest. Take him or leave him, it's just his sense of humor.

 

The fact of the matter is, a lot of people don't know what a classical education is. I had never even heard of classical studies three years ago when I first started homeschooling. Should I also be accused of having my brain tied behind my back for this reason? That fact that an article even had to be written to address his comments is very sad indeed. It truly insults my intelligence and make me question the writer's, accomplished or not.

 

Memoria press just lost my respect.

Edited November 24, 2011 by MyLittleBears

[mcconnellboys]

The problem is that in today's world, one may graduate with any sort of degree at all and fail to find employment. A lot of that has to do with the mindset of the potential employee, i.e., what sort of job will they be willing to look for and accept, how much are they will to give in order to get job security, etc.? In my opinion, the title of your major is irrelevant. I did not major in business, but nearly always worked (at management level) within the business world.

 

Unless one seeks a job that requires a certification of some sort (as in the medical field), what one majors in is really sort of beside the point. Did you learn how to learn? Did you learn how to market yourself? Did you learn enough to be able to figure out how to get and keep a job, move up/over, etc. into an area you like more once you're there, peddle your knowledge into another career option, etc.?

 

Any major that involves a great deal of analysis, both written and verbal, should prepare one for careers that involve thinking, communicating, etc. Classical studies is just one major that should fulfill such a requirement. I can't vouch for what any particular college today is teaching in such a major, but if they're doing their job, then the students they're turning out should be well qualified to move into areas that involve communication skills. If they aren't, then I wouldn't think that school's business majors would be any better prepared to move into the business world, either....

 

No business major is going to teach you how to handle the business of a particular company. You're going to have to learn that in on the job training. And a sensible person with any sort of degree should be able to learn such a job just as easily....

 

In listening to talk around me in the past few years, I'm beginning to get the sense that people seem to have come to the conclusion at some point since I was in college that in order to work in "business," one must have a "business" degree. It seems comparable to me to saying that in order to "teach," one must possess a teaching degree. Of course, we know plenty of folks who say that, too, but are they correct?

 

And what degrees ARE acceptable now? There are too many lawyers and not enough jobs. There may or may not be plenty of medical jobs (for questionable sums of money) going forward in time. Not everyone wants to be a doctor, and even their rates are threatened now.... And did you see the recent survey listing the very high unemployment rates for many areas of psychiatry?

 

If we're not going to be a doctor or lawyer, what's left, other than the rather amorphous "business"? Now, if folks want to major in business areas that are more specific, such as finance, accounting, economics, etc., then maybe their prospects are better, but even most of the more general sorts of business majors can't be sure they'll get decent jobs that compensate the time and money of a college degree....

 

Everything else in terms of majors should just be chucked by all the accounts I keep hearing. I'm not sure that's a good idea....

[Bluegoat]

The idea that the role of the university in society is to prepare people for jobs has been bad bad bad for universities. They bought into it themselves because they thought it would bring them in all kinds of money, but they now see what that means: loads of infrastructure that need continuous income to maintain; lowering of academic standards to allow anyone who pays to get through; emphasis being given to professional programs and the inclusion of degrees that really don't belong in the university at all; an emphasis on teaching and vocational skills over research. In short, the university has become a business.:sad:

 

It also hasn't been that good for everyone else when we all have to spend four years and a ton of money studying for jobs that would better be taught in other formats, like through apprenticeship programs or on the job training.

[Ester Maria]

The idea that the role of the university in society is to prepare people for jobs has been bad bad bad for universities. They bought into it themselves because they thought it would bring them in all kinds of money, but they now see what that means: loads of infrastructure that need continuous income to maintain; lowering of academic standards to allow anyone who pays to get through; emphasis being given to professional programs and the inclusion of degrees that really don't belong in the university at all; an emphasis on teaching and vocational skills over research. In short, the university has become a business.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

And this is only because I cannot put more than eight smilies in a post. LOL. Every single word in this is so very true.

[Mommyfaithe]

Right, Mr. Cothran does state there are some serious problems with the college system. But the "point" of college is/was, to some, different than the "point" of a technical or trade school. Someone pursuing a college degree should, in the view of some, be participating in the "passing on of the best in a culture", NOT preparing for a specific career. We joked about this in our house a week or so ago. My husband set up the girls' science experiment and claimed his time in graduate school prepared him for this. His master's is in Anglo-Saxon literaure! He claims it broadened his mind. He is a judge now, having gone to law school as his trade school.

 

I think there is a difference in the ideas of college vs. trade school. Not that one cannot go to both or only some are smart enough, but they have different ends.

 

If you pursue a classical studies or philosophy program expecting it to put food on the table, you are at fault. If you get a technical degree in plumbing (boy, that would come in handy around our house!) you will probably get a job, but it will not prepare you to analyze the Iliad or understand the principles at work in the Constitution. See? Two different ends.

 

Well, that's how it looks to me at the moment....always subject to change:lol:

 

ETA:I don't mean that all college majors are impractical!

 

 

BUT I WANT MY KIDS TO HAVE BOTH'!!!!!!!! Seriously. I want my kids to have food on their table...and a classical education. Classical education for my economic status is elitist...and I want it. My boys ARE learning to be plumbers...and they do read Homer. My girls can run our business if they had to...they could do the office book keeping and dispatch our technicians in the field if i couldn't. They read Dante, and Lord Byron. They read Kafka....they fix toilets.

 

I want them to have college degrees....they are so **** expensive....and their loans mean they better be making money when they get out. We just don't have the luxury of paid school education for education's sake. BUT, we are so blessed to live in a time when materials are readily available to pursue an education outside of brick and mortar schools.

We do not have an inheritance or a trust fund to fall back on. Dh and my educations were cut short due to poor parenting and poor choices we made ourselves....knowing it doesn't change it. We still have to take care of our kids and put food on the table. We study...lots.

I love Memoria Press materials and I am grateful that they are available. I desire the best education for my kids that I can provide, but when it comes down to their college education, my kids are going to have to take majors in fields they can earn money in....hopefully enough to pay their debt and live comfortably. Maybe they can bring their eductions into the family business and build it into their own dream. And, I pray they will continue to educate themselves...improve their minds....challenge their own thinking....

 

Faithe

[justamouse]

The idea that the role of the university in society is to prepare people for jobs has been bad bad bad for universities. They bought into it themselves because they thought it would bring them in all kinds of money, but they now see what that means: loads of infrastructure that need continuous income to maintain; lowering of academic standards to allow anyone who pays to get through; emphasis being given to professional programs and the inclusion of degrees that really don't belong in the university at all; an emphasis on teaching and vocational skills over research. In short, the university has become a business.:sad:

 

It also hasn't been that good for everyone else when we all have to spend four years and a ton of money studying for jobs that would better be taught in other formats, like through apprenticeship programs or on the job training.

 

Way-the-hell amen.

[kalanamak]

I love how it's alright to make fun of someone's addiction/affliction if he's a private citizen with a public voice, but how dare we scrutize anything said or done by anyone that can actually create policies that actually effect us.

 

 

 

People scrutinize and give intelligent commentary every day. Hyperbole, snide comments, and a general boor's attitude is what gets him loathed. On the other hand, it also gets a loyal following who want to clench their fists with him, and put everyone who they suspect has a differing opinion in their pea-brained place with some cutting sarcasm.

 

You might not have heard of classical education, but would you have skewered it without looking into the issue? It isn't his political leanings that make me ill, it is his delivery.

[MyLittleBears]

People scrutinize and give intelligent commentary every day. Hyperbole, snide comments, and a general boor's attitude is what gets him loathed. On the other hand, it also gets a loyal following who want to clench their fists with him, and put everyone who they suspect has a differing opinion in their pea-brained place with some cutting sarcasm.

 

You might not have heard of classical education, but would you have skewered it without looking into the issue? It isn't his political leanings that make me ill, it is his delivery.

 

 

Honestly, I don't consider myself a fist-clencher in the least, and actually quite open-minded.:confused:Sacarsm is his trademark, which is what gets others peaved, but if someone listens to him without coming in with previously made assumptions about him, or what they have heard about him through some filter, they generally get his humor. I've seen this happen many, many times. And, I've actually have only ever heard a good attitude from him,(yes, I have listened for years) just a bravery for saying what he thinks. Apparently, this just doesn't fly with a lot of people, but I find it refreshing.

 

Now I will duck for the firing squad.:tongue_smilie:

Edited November 25, 2011 by MyLittleBears

[kalanamak]

Honestly, I don't consider myself a fist-clencher in the least and actually quite open-minded.:confused:Sacarsm is his trademark, which is what gets others peaved, but if someone listens to him without coming in with previously made assumptions about him or what they have heard about him they generally get his humor. I've seen this happen many, many times. And, I've actually have only ever heard a good attitude from him(yes, I have listened for years) and just a bravery for saying what he thinks. Apparently, this just doesn't fly with a lot of people, but I find it refreshing.

 

Now I will duck for the firing squad.:tongue_smilie:

 

No firing squad. I first heard him in 1988. I had no TV and used the radio to help keep me awake for studying 18 hours a day. I hadn't ever heard of him, and I think this was when he was first going national (???), so it wasn't previously made assumptions. I don't like Dr. Laura, David Letterman, talk radio, etc. etc. etc. If I'm a snob, at least I'm a happy snob. I'd much rather watch Yes, Minister than Roseanne (and this really dates me as far as the last time I had a roomie with a TV.)

 

Sarcasm is a powerful and very scornful tool. It is a good way to NEVER be forgiven by those who you muddy. It is a good way to kill a marriage, e.g. I think it is popular because is sets endorphins loose on the "giving" side. I am fond of the truism: they won't remember what you said, they won't remember what you did, but they will remember how you made them feel. People who get a charge out of him get a BIG charge, and remember this. People whom he insults remember that, too. I just remember disgust.

 

I'm not a Memoria Press groupie, either. (I don't think I have one bit of their material). I wouldn't have graced him with a response, personally. Not worth the effort.

 

But, I don't think it is "speaking his mind" that alienates people. It is how he does it.

[MyLittleBears]

[quote name=kalanamak;3354093 I wouldn't have graced him with a response' date=' personally.

 

This was my take. Many times I have heard people speak of that which they know not, but I gave them a pass for ignorance on the subject, not write a whole article as if personally offended. He is who he is, love him or hate him.

[kalanamak]

This was my take. Many times I have heard people speak of that which they know not, but I give them a pass for ignorance on the subject, not write a whole article as if personally offended. He is who he is, love him or hate him.

 

Perhaps they felt a chop at the root. Classics is their livelihood. :)

[MyLittleBears]

Perhaps they felt a chop at the root. Classics is their livelihood. :)

 

Must have been. I guess we all have our sore spots. :001_smile:

[Guest]

I have read other articles written by Mr. Cothran and felt this one was not as well done. It reads like it was rushed (no pun intended). I can understand Mr. Cothran's feelings of irritation with Mr. Rush's seeming attack on ALL classical education at any stage of a child's life. My impression of the bit I have read is Mr. Rush was addressing concerns (albeit probably not in the best way) with University "Classical Studies" degrees.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Guest

[TXMary2]

Fist clencher that I am....:rolleyes:......I just happened to be listening when he made his comments and he was clearly talking about choosing college degrees, and unrealstic expectations of those with certain degrees. I didn't get the impression that he was poopooing a classical education at the K-12 level or that he was poopooing it at all - just that one shouldn't expect to get certain jobs and certain pay when they don't have the required degreee/knowledge.

 

I was only in the car for about ten minutes, and perhaps I didn't hear Rush's whole commentary, but I think this Cothran guy got his panties in a bunch and brought unnecessary attention to an otherwise uninteresting commentary. On the other hand, maybe MP was looking for mass traffic to their website.

[Bloggermom]

I am not going to push traditional college on my kids. There are plenty of ways to make money and put food on the table by working for yourself.

[RootAnn]

And what degrees ARE acceptable now?

 

If we're not going to be a doctor or lawyer, what's left, other than the rather amorphous "business"?

 

I'll give you one specific one to answer both of your questions: Engineering.

 

See the bottom of my post for another area for which you can go to college (although there are other ways to get that job than a 4 yr degree).

 

Degree = debt.

 

Education is the next bubble. It's too expensive and with the recent news reports, the media cannot afford to show support for universities. There's now blood in the water and the media sharks are about to frenzy.

 

:iagree:

 

I am not going to push traditional college on my kids. There are plenty of ways to make money and put food on the table by working for yourself.

 

If I have a kid that isn't really fit for 'traditional college,' I'm not going to push them to go. Certain vocational & 2-yr degrees lead to more $$ and job security where we live than some 4-yr degrees. There is a huge demand for nurses right now. Nurses that will do home-health or work with the elderly are in high demand in rural America, at least here in the Heartland.

 

IMO, you can always self-educate as long as you have some free time and live near a decent library (or have a good internet connection). I want my kids to be able to put food on the table & have a roof over their heads, so they can keep their books dry & munch on chocolate while reading!

[Bluegoat]

I'll give you one specific one to answer both of your questions: Engineering.

 

See the bottom of my post for another area for which you can go to college (although there are other ways to get that job than a 4 yr degree).

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

 

If I have a kid that isn't really fit for 'traditional college,' I'm not going to push them to go. Certain vocational & 2-yr degrees lead to more $$ and job security where we live than some 4-yr degrees. There is a huge demand for nurses right now. Nurses that will do home-health or work with the elderly are in high demand in rural America, at least here in the Heartland.

 

IMO, you can always self-educate as long as you have some free time and live near a decent library (or have a good internet connection). I want my kids to be able to put food on the table & have a roof over their heads, so they can keep their books dry & munch on chocolate while reading!

 

I don't think it is always as simple as self-educating. My sister was a person who was not cut out for university. She is very organized though, great with computers, and good at explaining them. She lucked out and got a job training people to use an office program, and quickly went way up in the company. Then she moved to a different employer and has done very well there, working on human computer interfaces for records systems and such.

 

The thing is, she is working far from home and wants to move back. Especially when she has kids. But here, she can't even get her resume in the pile to be read because she doesn't have the right degree.:confused:

[kalanamak]

 

If we're not going to be a doctor or lawyer, what's left, other than the rather amorphous "business"?

 

Where I work there are specific degrees (PhD psychology, MSW, MD, JD, RN (BS and masters)) but there are also the "any college degree" vs. "no college degree jobs". There is a ceiling, and you won't work your way up in management or line staff if you don't have a degree.

 

I have a friend who works at group health as an MA. Her lack of a degree meant she couldn't go up the chain any further. It didn't matter if it was chemistry or Middle English. With enough applicants, it is a first weeder. And, if you had a college degree and were a vet, wow, you get through the first big winnowing in the lead.

 

Not all places want managers to have management degrees. I heard one interviewer say that she looked for people with a little depth, rather than people who are paper-smart and life-foolish.

 

I knew a journalist who did a biology major with an English minor because he thought it would make him more employable. It did.

 

And then there is my father's (a professor) take: the first four years of college are to make you generally educated enough that you can read or hear anything and not have the wool pulled over your eyes.

 

I know an architect, a man who became very rich doing it, who told my husband's daughter that the purpose of the first four years of college is to meet people who will help you in your business the rest of your life.

 

College is alright for some even if the degree does not equal an immediate job in that field.

I knew a journalist who ...

 

I know an architect,...

 

A big problem with planning is that our society is now changing so fast that some things that seemed to be universal truths ten or twenty years ago are no longer so true. I bet all these anecdotes about successful people with unusual majors are all folks who graduated from college a while ago. What was true for them may not be true for new graduates.

 

And then there is my father's (a professor) take: the first four years of college are to make you generally educated enough that you can read or hear anything and not have the wool pulled over your eyes.

 

And the last people we should blindly trust about the value of college in general, or of any particular major is the college itself. Clearly, there's a huge conflict of interest there.

 

College is alright for some even if the degree does not equal an immediate job in that field.

 

There's a big difference between not getting an immediate job in the field, and not getting any job at all.

[Finnella]

Not that long ago, when I was in college, I was given the idea it didn't matter what your degree was in, just that you had one. For example, I have a friend who majored in English Lit and is now an HR director for a major multi-national company. I have another friend who majored in psychology and works for a car company. That used to be the case, sadly, not anymore.

 

That was definitely the case when I went to college at a four year liberal arts school. I majored in Classics with a specialization in Latin. Except for a brief stint teaching in the public schools, I have never had a job related to my degree. But in this part of the country, being able to say you graduated from Davidson is what mattered. No one cared at all about my major or even my GPA.

 

Before becoming disabled, I ran my employer's retirement plans. All of the rigorous training in precise thinking, problem solving, and communication was invaluable.

 

I'm wary of degrees based solely on the job it will supposedly get one. With the job market rapidly changing, turning a four year college degree into an elaborate vocational degree may not pay off well. A few years ago, computer programming with a sure fire ticket to a great job. Now, much of that work is being outsourced to India.

 

For our older son, we're expecting him to want to do post-graduate work. It may be a law degree although he's not certain yet. We talk often about what he wants to do for a living to help him make good decisions. I still hope he spends some time learning just for learning's sake while he's in college. He's well suited to that.

[Miss Marple]

Fist clencher that I am....:rolleyes:......I just happened to be listening when he made his comments and he was clearly talking about choosing college degrees, and unrealstic expectations of those with certain degrees. I didn't get the impression that he was poopooing a classical education at the K-12 level or that he was poopooing it at all - just that one shouldn't expect to get certain jobs and certain pay when they don't have the required degreee/knowledge.

 

I was only in the car for about ten minutes, and perhaps I didn't hear Rush's whole commentary, but I think this Cothran guy got his panties in a bunch and brought unnecessary attention to an otherwise uninteresting commentary. On the other hand, maybe MP was looking for mass traffic to their website.

 

My thoughts as well. Even Cothran says, "Provoked by a sign-carrying Wall Street occupier who bemoaned her "useless" classical studies degree and her resulting lack of employment..."

 

IMO, Rush's response was to someone who chose a degree that isn't highly sought out in the job market. If someone wants to "pursue knowledge", fine, but don't complain when you can't get a job with that degree.

 

If someone has enough money to spread around to further their "knowledge", more power to them. Some of us have limited funds and have to use them in a way to get both "knowledge" and a job.

 

Rush spends a lot of time encouraging people to read the writings of our Founding Fathers as well as quality literature. I've never heard him recommend ignorance:D He's a huge supporter of Hillsdale and the Heritage Foundation. And for those who feel he needs to improve his own education, I would suggest that you have NO idea what he does to educate himself - probably reads more and more variety than most of us here based on his frequent references. Of course Hillsdale and the Heritage Foundation are "conservative" and those who claim he is ignorant might claim the same about these institutions :D

[kalanamak]

What was true for them may not be true for new graduates.

 

 

 

And the last people we should blindly trust about the value of college in general, or of any particular major is the college itself. Clearly, there's a huge conflict of interest there.

 

Well, the young lady took the advice and now, with a simple degree, makes a LOT of money. She works for a company that is basically a cooperative of people she knew from back home who went to this school. Rather like "only hiring those who went to Eton". She has pots more money than I did at that age. The advice worked great for her. She is 30. The "good old boy/girl network" is as old as the hills, and won't go away soon. Where else do you meet like-minded peers and interact with them intellectually and socially, and learn to trust them, as well as gain their trust?

 

Also, I think it bizarre you'd think my father's advice to me was self-promotional in some way.

[LoveBaby]

I don't think it is always as simple as self-educating. My sister was a person who was not cut out for university. She is very organized though, great with computers, and good at explaining them. She lucked out and got a job training people to use an office program, and quickly went way up in the company. Then she moved to a different employer and has done very well there, working on human computer interfaces for records systems and such.

 

The thing is, she is working far from home and wants to move back. Especially when she has kids. But here, she can't even get her resume in the pile to be read because she doesn't have the right degree.:confused:

 

My husband is going back to school right now for this very reason. He is gifted in many areas, always willing to work hard, a loyal employee who has a knack for video editing, graphic design, promotional materials etc. He's just a creative, crafty guy. Cut out for college right out of high school? Not so much, but he can't even *apply* for jobs that he has the skill set and experience to do because he doesn't have a piece of paper that says he has the skill set. :confused:

 

It is frustrating to say the least.

[Mommy22alyns]

My husband is going back to school right now for this very reason. He is gifted in many areas, always willing to work hard, a loyal employee who has a knack for video editing, graphic design, promotional materials etc. He's just a creative, crafty guy. Cut out for college right out of high school? Not so much, but he can't even *apply* for jobs that he has the skill set and experience to do because he doesn't have a piece of paper that says he has the skill set. :confused:

 

It is frustrating to say the least.

 

 

Whereas my DH has a 4 year degree that basically IS worthless. He just spent over a year being unemployed only to get a menial job that won't even pay the bills. The fact that he HAS A college degree has meant nothing for a very long time, if it ever meant anything at all.

[coffeefreak]

That was a great response!

[Miss Marple]

I think there's an important distinction to be made between "studying the classics" and "majoring in the classics". Everyone can benefit from studying the classics, but there are very few jobs that specifically require a degree in the classics. Ideally, the general education portion of every degree would include classical studies, but there's very little call for more than that in terms of employment, and it's also possible to continue self-educating after attaining a "practical" degree. So while I roll my eyes at his vitriol, I can see where Limbaugh is coming from to an extent.

 

OT, but if you'd asked me this morning what my plans were for the day, "partially defending Rush Limbaugh" would not have been on the list. Funny old world.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[LoveBaby]

Whereas my DH has a 4 year degree that basically IS worthless. He just spent over a year being unemployed only to get a menial job that won't even pay the bills. The fact that he HAS A college degree has meant nothing for a very long time, if it ever meant anything at all.

 

 

Sometimes, you can't win for losing, huh?! It just stinks in this economy, degree or not.

 

We are prayerful that his education will open more doors for him!

[TranquilMind]

I understand what Rush is saying. He says that we should be practical about our educational programs, specifically which major one should choose in college. This is particularly important because of how much college and post-graduate education cost. We shouldn't waste endless time and money teaching subjects or blocks of information just because some academics say they are "classical." Even the Memoria Press article admits that a lot of classical studies programs currently in the colleges are bad.

 

If one can't get a job with a classical studies degree, then why not major in something else that is useful and read the classics in spare time?

I acknowledge this a bit sadly as absolutely true, as I have a daughter who happens to excel in and wants to major in...you got it, classical studies. But you have to be practical too. Somehow we will make it work.

[coffeefreak]

Education is the next bubble. It's too expensive and with the recent news reports, the media cannot afford to show support for universities. There's now blood in the water and the media sharks are about to frenzy.

 

I disagree with your first sentence, and I'm not sure I understand the second. If you mean that less people will be going to college in the next decade, I agree with that, but it won't be for the better. A college degree continues to give those who have it a leg up. A friend of mine described it to her boys using Chess as the example. In the game of life we are all chess pieces. You can be a pawn and have one trade or talent. Unfortunately though, you will only be able to move forward in life, rarely side to side. You may get a jump start on your peers, but as life moves on, you will only be able to move one step at a time. With a college degree, you have a slower start, but as life goes on, you will have more choices. Depending on the degree, you might be a knight, a bishop or a queen. You will have more options, more opportunities, more power. That's not to say that pawns can never become queens, and queens don't get taken out, but which would you rather be?

 

We struggled straight out of college. We weren't handed jobs, and we certainly weren't handed jobs in our industry. We started at minimum wage and worked our way up. After 3 years, dh was laid off, got another job and was laid off again (this time after 1 year). We were unemployed in a good economy, where the govt did not help us, and close friends and family asked my dh what he had possibly done wrong to get laid off. Both times, we were unemployed for 7 months and both times, the jobs he acquired had nothing to do with his degree, but they were willing to give him a chance and train him BECAUSE he had a degree. Both employers told him it was the only reason he was given the job. Now, he works in an industry he never would have imagined himself in, but could not have achieved without his degree. He was able to remake himself without going back to school because the employers knew he had commitment and was willing to learn.

 

That's why we'll be encouraging our girls to get their diplomas. It's more than the degree. It's the commitment to something above the standard. It's the dedication, the work and the achievement of something better than a 12 year education. The recession is affecting everyone, college and non-college graduates, but it is still worth the degree.

 

 

 

Back to Rush's comments, he's a shock jock. If the sky turns green it's the liberal's fault. I agree with kalanamak, it's his delivery I object to. He contradicts himself constantly, and never recognizes it. His commentary blows with the wind. He, and other shock jocks like him are another good reason to get a classical education. Too many people in this country (not anyone here on these boards:001_smile:) are choosing to believe anything they hear on the radio or read on the internet. I want my girls to think for themselves and question the opinions of others, even if it's not popular. The current PS education is seriously lacking in critical thinking skills, and it frightens me.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[mcconnellboys]

Amen to apprenticeship programs! I saw something today on TV, just in passing, about kids being allowed to work at a younger age. I don't know any details yet, but I'd love to see our country start to promote apprenticeship type programs for teens....

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I'm afraid I'm being a little rhetorical. I know which degrees are still able to find decent jobs and have read tons of articles about such things in the past 3 years or so, because I have a son in college. Unfortunately, every single engineer I know hates, hates, hates the work they do. Also unfortunately for my son, he detests all things mathematical (so isn't going the computer programming route, either)....

 

I know that math and science majors can still find jobs here in our country. The problem is, lots and lots and LOTS of kids are not math and science kids. Majoring in something in which they have zero interest and in which they would struggle mightily (in at least some instances) is not likely to land them in a decent, long-term job after college. It seems from the talk I hear around me from high school and college age kids, that they think if they're not majoring in a math or science field, then the only other option is to be a business major....

[Bluegoat]

Well, I'm afraid I'm being a little rhetorical. I know which degrees are still able to find decent jobs and have read tons of articles about such things in the past 3 years or so, because I have a son in college. Unfortunately, every single engineer I know hates, hates, hates the work they do. Also unfortunately for my son, he detests all things mathematical (so isn't going the computer programming route, either)....

 

I know that math and science majors can still find jobs here in our country. The problem is, lots and lots and LOTS of kids are not math and science kids. Majoring in something in which they have zero interest and in which they would struggle mightily (in at least some instances) is not likely to land them in a decent, long-term job after college. It seems from the talk I hear around me from high school and college age kids, that they think if they're not majoring in a math or science field, then the only other option is to be a business major....

 

 

My approach to this would be to say, what does he want to do with his life? Then work from there. If he doesn't know, if he can afford it, a liberal arts program is great. But if he can't, I'd skip college for now and learn a trade.

[Missouri Okie]

Amen to apprenticeship programs! I saw something today on TV, just in passing, about kids being allowed to work at a younger age. I don't know any details yet, but I'd love to see our country start to promote apprenticeship type programs for teens....

 

:iagree:

 

I've already seen Facebook posts opposing this, though, decrying a return to child labor. One of my fb 'friends' is claiming the next step will be children being forced into coal mines. It may be an uphill battle for apprenticeship programs with that type of rhetoric floating around.

[Mrs Twain]

I acknowledge this a bit sadly as absolutely true, as I have a daughter who happens to excel in and wants to major in...you got it, classical studies. But you have to be practical too. Somehow we will make it work.

 

How about doing classical studies as a minor?

[RootAnn]

Unfortunately, every single engineer I know hates, hates, hates the work they do.

 

That is truly unfortunate.

 

I know that math and science majors can still find jobs here in our country. The problem is, lots and lots and LOTS of kids are not math and science kids. Majoring in something in which they have zero interest and in which they would struggle mightily (in at least some instances) is not likely to land them in a decent, long-term job after college.

 

One of my points is that sending a kid to college who would struggle mightily and who has zero interest in learning in a "college education"-type way (meaning the usual/traditional "school" way) is not likely to land them in a decent, long-term job after college. They are more likely to drop/fail out after only a few semesters and still have large amounts of debt from the experience.

 

If I end up with one of those 'not college material' type kids, I'm not going to encourage them to attend just to get a degree (any degree).