Controversial topics in a Spanish curriculum?

[RootAnn]

I think this poll should be a call-out to creators of programs like this to put controversial topics in an appendix and refer to them in the book as an optional activity.

 

LOL.

"Goodnight, Grandma." "Good night, dear." "Now turn to Appendix A if you would like the child to say a traditional bedtime prayer, or alternatively, to destroy that page."

 

Well, in your given example of going to church, they can go to church and say that priest then says the Lord's Prayer. (See Appendix A for full text of the prayer.) :)

 

I'd probably just put an asterisk and at the bottom of the page say that the text of the prayer is on pg ## if they want to see it.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with any of these examples, as long as it was clear when I was buying it that these things were included. (Our Latin program *clearly* states that part of it is learning prayers in Latin. I knew that going in.)

[Whereneverever]

Personally, I like learning about culture in and with language studies.

[Dmmetler]

I see this as like teaching music. Scratch the surface of almost any piece of music and you'll find religion and politics (or, often, both)-and it's next to impossible to teach music at more than a superficial, notes on the page way without also teaching a bit of that religion and politics. When I was a PS teacher, this was a constant balancing act for me (especially since my professional focus other than teaching is musicology, so I spent my graduate school and research years STUDYING those deeper meaning)-how to give kids the tools to make the music truly come alive and be real to them, without teaching religion. For example, Dale, Dale, Dale is a standard folksong, contained in many music anthologies. But it doesn't make sense unless you KNOW what Los Posadas is and therefore, have at least SOME idea of the nativity and how it's celebrated in Latin American countries.

[BigMamaBird]

It wouldn't bother me. Learning well known Scripture in another language would be a really fun idea. I also like learning about how other cultures celebrate similar holidays. The Day of the Dead would have to have a discussion accompanying it, but I don't think it would be much of an issue. Dh's family is culturally Catholic so it's not something that would bother us either.

[Mommy22alyns]

I would like it. I think adding some culture in with language studies is fun and appropriate.

[Swimtaxi234]

Culture was a part of our German language course a few years ago and now that our children switched to French, I see it there too, but not as much yet since they are still in the first year.

[Laura in STL]

Well, we are Catholic, so I would love it! We actually do say the Our Father in Spanish, so maybe I'm not the kind of vote the OP is looking for:tongue_smilie:.

 

In all seriousness though, I do consider it cultural, even the prayers. I believe that you can study a prayer in a poetic, non religious way. This is not a book about Mexico; it is a Spanish language program. If I were studying Arabic I would expect to read some prayers in Arabic. Just because you read a prayer doesn't mean you are praying; you have to believe for it to be a prayer.

 

Now that I think about it, I learned the Our Father in German in ps high school. It wasn't a prayer, just a language exercise.

 

Now, if the program is specifically giving Catholic instruction, then I can see that being a problem for some people.

[redsquirrel]

You can't learn language without learning the culture. I would expect it, whether I was studying Spanish or Hindi. I would feel free, though, to gloss over a story that might scare my kid.

 

But learning the culture is not the same as learning about one of the religions practiced by some of the people in the culture. I studied Spanish for 4 years in high school, 4 years in college and studied for a time in Spain. I never learned a prayer. I learned a whole lot about the culture and the history though. Definitely learned about the history of religion and how that played out in the country and the rest of the world. And when I went to Spain I visited a lot of churches, museums, castles, the Alhambra etc, but didn't attend one religious ceremony.

 

I'm the OP. Let me change "learning the Lord's prayer" to "attending church and hearing the priest (or the congregation) saying the Lord's prayer." I really never intended to assign the learner to memorize the Lord's prayer in Spanish, though if a parent wanted the child to, they could assign it.

 

If the curriculum included a storyline where a child attended church in Mexico with her grandmother and *heard* the Lord's prayer, is that too much?

 

Serious question, and not trying to be argumentative.

 

That wouldn't concern me at all. I was thinking it was more like using lines from the prayer as memorization exercises. But if it is part of a larger story then that is not concerning to me at all.

[Bluegoat]

I would not be surprised to see prayers included in any language curriculum, because religious texts are among the most important literature of many cultures, and reading important - and beautiful - literature is one of the main reasons we study languages. It would be hard to imagine studying Hebrew poetry without looking at the psalms for example.

 

I spent a fair bit of time in my university Latin programs translating prayers, hymns, and theological texts, because those are the subjects that was important to many Latin speaking people.

 

And in general, I would much rather have students read real texts than made up ones as soon as possible.

 

The same would apply to an English curriculum. I would have no problem studing poetry that was important that contradicted my religious views.

[Farrar]

With the way the OP presented it, no problem. I was picturing it in a little box as a little "Cultural Connection." I remember that sort of thing from my French lessons as a kid. If it was as others here seem to think, memorizing the prayer or pushing it further than that in any way or if the prayer was integrated into the lesson more somehow... then it would probably be a no.

[Snowfall]

Cultural things...no problem. Prayers? Deal-breaker.

 

Yeah. I wouldn't want my curriculum teaching prayers, but I really don't understand how teaching how different people celebrate their holidays is "controversial"? What is controversial about that, exactly? I'm certainly not raising my children to believe that everyone on earth does things the same way and believes the same things. I literally cannot wrap my mind around believing those were controversial topics.

[Snowfall]

I'm the OP. Let me change "learning the Lord's prayer" to "attending church and hearing the priest (or the congregation) saying the Lord's prayer." I really never intended to assign the learner to memorize the Lord's prayer in Spanish, though if a parent wanted the child to, they could assign it.

 

If the curriculum included a storyline where a child attended church in Mexico with her grandmother and *heard* the Lord's prayer, is that too much?

 

Serious question, and not trying to be argumentative.

 

Oh, I just read to this part. Oops. Then that wouldn't bother me at all. My only issue would be with teaching it as part of the required study.

[MrsMe]

Cultural things...no problem. Prayers? Deal-breaker.

 

Bill

 

 

:iagree:

[timetoteach]

I didn't vote, but as a 2nd generation Us-born Cuban-American, I'd like Spanish curriculum to focus on the language, and the cultural/religious aspects seem better left to a history/social studies curriculum. Spanish is a language spoken by people from various countries, cultures and religions. It seems odd to generalize and stereotype, especially as countries become more diverse and pluralistic.

[Cindyg]

...but I really don't understand how teaching how different people celebrate their holidays is "controversial"? What is controversial about that, exactly?

 

Every year we have debates on this board about Halloween, Christmas, and Santa. I just wondered. Honestly, I didn't think The Lord's Prayer would be such a hot button. But that's why I asked.

 

I didn't vote, but as a 2nd generation Us-born Cuban-American, I'd like Spanish curriculum to focus on the language, and the cultural/religious aspects seem better left to a history/social studies curriculum. Spanish is a language spoken by people from various countries, cultures and religions. It seems odd to generalize and stereotype, especially as countries become more diverse and pluralistic.

 

Totally understand. But I wanted to tell a story. And a story has to be about someone and something. And a family has to have a personality.

 

Bill (SpyCar), if you're still reading, I'd like to know if the prayer still bothers you if the child attends church with her Grandma and *hears* the priest say the prayer.

 

Lots of good food for thought on the thread, and I appreciate the discussion.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Cindyg

[caedmyn]

I would be fine with it. Personally I think it would be cool to include the Lord's Prayer in Spanish...but if you're aiming at a secular audience too that might not fly for everybody.

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with:) Any idea when it might be done?

[Jay3fer]

I think it is reasonable to focus on the majority and historical culture even if the country is becoming more diverse. We're Jewish, but I have read MANY Xmas-around-the-world type books to my kids over the years. I believe religion has a big place in Mexican history, though it would be interesting to see how such a curriculum handled the indigenous, pre-European religions of the area.

I would also probably want the curriculum to be clear that it was about Mexico and Mexican Spanish, and not Spain/Spanish-speaking people around the world, just as French textbooks here generally reflect the culture of Canadian French speakers.

 

In the past, many books here taught and dealt with French French, with stories set at the Eiffel Tower and around Paris, which is just silly considering you're mostly going to use the language in Montreal and Quebec City - where it's spoken very differently. I would expect to see a Quebecois flag and other language / symbols on the cover to reflect clearly that it was a QUEBECOIS French book. Whereas if it was France French, I'd want to see the Eiffel Tower, cheese, etc.

 

So... as long as you were clear that it was MEXICAN Spanish, as lived and spoken by a Catholic family in Mexico, I think that would be fine. Also, if you're not self-publishing, the publisher will probably want some say in how religious the material is. If you hope to find a broader, secular market, you may wish to tone down the prayer aspect, whereas, if you want to court religious imprints specifically, then you'd play it up! \

 

As some of us say here... chacun a son gout!

(I didn't vote, because the question is far too nuanced to express in an either-or)

[laundrycrisis]

Because I do not want religious content in my language (or an other academic) programs. It is an over-reach.

 

 

 

The equivalent would be having a child learn to say Muslim prayers like al-Fatiha ( the opening of the Qur'an that I can recite in Arabic). An inclusion of Muslim prayers might not set well with all parents if it was included in a book studying Saudi Arabia or Egypt. I'm sure you understand that.

 

Bill

 

I understand your point...but still want to say that I would think inclusion of Muslim prayers, greetings, common sayings etc. would to me personally be very cool. We do not embrace any religion and I would not mind learning some things from a faith that is very prevalent in a culture we are studying. I do understand that many people would not be comfortable with this but I would find it enriching.

[Spy Car]

I understand your point...but still want to say that I would think inclusion of Muslim prayers, greetings, common sayings etc. would to me personally be very cool. We do not embrace any religion and I would not mind learning some things from a faith that is very prevalent in a culture we are studying. I do understand that many people would not be comfortable with this but I would find it enriching.

 

I understand that a person might wish to do so. I have learned prayers in Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin. But this was my decision to make, and not something included in a language program (and especially not in one aimed at children).

 

Things get especially sticky when the dominate religion in your society is proselytizing religion and it is not one you share and you don't care for your children missioned. There is not need for it in a language program.

 

Bill

[Violet Crown]

I would want such a curriculum to include a clear warning for North Americans that, in many Spanish masses in the U.S. and Mexico, the Padre Nuestro is sung to the tune of Simon & Garfunkel's "Sound of Silence," and that you should really not attend a Spanish-language mass unless you are confident that you have sufficient self-control to maintain a reverent demeanor throughout. Unlike my husband.

 

Also that, having once heard this, you will never be able to purge it from your brain.

[laundrycrisis]

I would want such a curriculum to include a clear warning for North Americans that, in many Spanish masses in the U.S. and Mexico, the Padre Nuestro is sung to the tune of Simon & Garfunkel's "Sound of Silence," and that you should really not attend a Spanish-language mass unless you are confident that you have sufficient self-control to maintain a reverent demeanor throughout. Unlike my husband.

 

Also that, having once heard this, you will never be able to purge it from your brain.

 

:lol:

 

But seriously, I just found a youtube recording of it, and it's lovely !

Edited November 15, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[foxbridgeacademy]

For many cultures in the world, you cannot separate their 'cultural things' and their religion/prayers. I'm really not sure why you would try to massacre cultural topics by avoiding anything that was religious - even from a secular standpoint it's ludicrous IMO.

 

Catholocism is a HUGE part of mexican culture - from their holidays to family traditions. You can't divorce that as you study the people. It would be like studying Saudi Arabia or Egypt and not acknowledging the Muslim influences in everything - from people's names, orientation of cities, holidays, festivals, tourism, etc... Even knowing what the call to prayer that interrupts every.single.day in those countries is important - as is learning what people say during those times. It has been helpful to me to know the basics of the call to prayer even though I am not Muslim. I wouldn't have a problem with my children learning them (there is a difference between learning them as something that is a poem/verse from another culture vs. actually adopting them as a personal devotional prayer).

:iagree:We're 100% secular and I would "like" any curriculum that shows all facets of a culture. A huge percentage of the worlds population believes in some sort of "divinity" whether it be monotheistic or polytheistic. Why try to avoid the truth? I would simply explain to my children my divergent beliefs.

 

If you leave out religion, politics, horrible living conditions, and all the other polarizing subjects what are we left with? The weather?

Edited November 15, 2011 by foxbridgeacademy

[Kate in Arabia]

I understand that a person might wish to do so. I have learned prayers in Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin. But this was my decision to make, and not something included in a language program (and especially not in one aimed at children).

 

When I was a grad student one of my professors (not Muslim) required us to memorize one of the shorter Surahs in the Qur'an; her specialty was poetry, particularly pre-Islamic poetry, it wasn't a stretch. But that was with adults, and in a pretty specific course. I have reviewed a lot of Arabic curricula for children, and those that are secular will mention religious holidays or even sayings, but always within the "3rd person cultural context". Even the curriculum I have from Lebanon is very "bland" when it comes to religious references (mentioning "we are celebrating a holiday today!" but not saying which holiday, for example).

 

I would be fine with a Spanish curriculum that included references to relevant religious aspects as a cultural study, but if it was clearly coming from a Christian perspective (as in, Chapter 4: Learn the Lord's Prayer in Spanish) I would take a pass. Frankly, I would be suspicious if in a more general chapter about, for example, "What Maria Does on the Weekend" that would include going to church on Sunday, they included the text of the Lord's Prayer in Spanish as part of the unit. I would assume a Christian bent to the text, and would likely pass unless I didn't have other options.

 

Maybe the poll could have asked whether people voting were Christian or not, I'm curious whether that has an impact on the answers.

[kiana]

I would want such a curriculum to include a clear warning for North Americans that, in many Spanish masses in the U.S. and Mexico, the Padre Nuestro is sung to the tune of Simon & Garfunkel's "Sound of Silence," and that you should really not attend a Spanish-language mass unless you are confident that you have sufficient self-control to maintain a reverent demeanor throughout. Unlike my husband.

 

Also that, having once heard this, you will never be able to purge it from your brain.

 

Oh my. Oh dear. Thanks for telling me .. and now I need to find a recording :D

[laundrycrisis]

I would want such a curriculum to include a clear warning for North Americans that, in many Spanish masses in the U.S. and Mexico, the Padre Nuestro is sung to the tune of Simon & Garfunkel's "Sound of Silence," and that you should really not attend a Spanish-language mass unless you are confident that you have sufficient self-control to maintain a reverent demeanor throughout. Unlike my husband.

 

Also that, having once heard this, you will never be able to purge it from your brain.

 

And you are right. It has been two days since I listened to that on Youtube, and it's true, I can NOT get it out of my head !! :lol: Well, at least it's pretty.

[Spy Car]

I would want such a curriculum to include a clear warning for North Americans that, in many Spanish masses in the U.S. and Mexico, the Padre Nuestro is sung to the tune of Simon & Garfunkel's "Sound of Silence," and that you should really not attend a Spanish-language mass unless you are confident that you have sufficient self-control to maintain a reverent demeanor throughout. Unlike my husband.

 

Also that, having once heard this, you will never be able to purge it from your brain.

 

I just want to go on record saying...I think it works! :D

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

And, the really crazy thing is that al-Fatiha would sound great recited to the Sounds of Silence as well.

 

Bi-smi-llāhi -r-raḥmāni -r-raḥīm

Al-ḥamdu -li-llāhi rabbi -l-`ālamīn

Ar-raḥmāni -r-raḥīm

Māliki yawmi -d-dīn

'Iyyāka na`budu wa-'iyyāka nasta`īn

Ihdinā -ṣ-ṣirāṭa -l-mustaqīm

Ṣirāṭa -l-laḏīna 'an`amta `alayhim ġayri-l-maġḍūbi `alayhim wa-lā -ḍ-ḍāllīn

 

What do you think Kate? :D

 

Bill

[Ohdanigirl]

Reading that children in Mexico believe in Santa and his reindeer is a far cry from teaching your dc that there is a Santa Claus.

 

Do Mexican children to the whole Santa thing like we do?

Unfortunately I have not come across that information in our Spanish book. It did, however, inform us that they eat their biggest meal entre las doce y las dos de la tarde. :D

 

Generally no. There are some areas where children have learned about Santa due to influence from family and friends from the north, Traditionally, Three kings Day is much more important than Christmas. Maybe I am biased, nut I can't imagine why the way Mexican children celebrate christmas would be controversial. Singing the Posadas seems very similar to caroling in the US. Could you enlighten me?

 

Off to read the rest of this thread.:auto:

 

Danielle

Edited November 17, 2011 by USDGAL

[eloquacious]

If you are the one writing this curriculum, then I'd make those sections/passages something that is enrichment, but not integral to the core program. No major new terminology/grammar should be introduced, other than incidental vocabulary, like "Christmas tree." That way anyone who did have a problem with it could simply redact it from the program. I personally wouldn't see ever having a problem with it.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Would you like or avoid a Spanish curriculum that included topics such as:

 

* How Mexican children celebrate Christmas

* How Mexican children participate in The Day of the Dead

* Learning the Lord's Prayer in a church in Mexico

* Hearing "scary" Mexican folktales around a campfire

* A "slightly" Catholic family in Mexico (not proselytizing, but reflecting a traditional Mexican family)

 

(My first poll! Thank you for participating!)

 

I was thinking about this a bit more in relation to my many years of studying German. In all that time, I rarely read anything relating to faith or religion. Which is a bit astonishing when you consider that Luther was German and that a significant part of the Thirty Years' War (a war of religion) was fought on German speaking lands.

 

When we lived in Germany, I found that I didn't know what Pfingsten was celebrating (a major spring holiday celebrating Pentacost), had never heard of Saint Martin (Martinstag is a widely celebrated children's holiday in November that includes making a lantern for a candle and proceeding around singing a particular song. Not knowing this song was a little like not knowing Jingle Bells) and didn't know about the practice of kids going out for Three Kings Day (which is a little like trick or treat for the kids, with that added feature that the house marks the door lintel with the year and the initials of the kings in chalk. In the Catholic south, these markings show up on most households, and even on public buildings like town halls).

 

These were aspects of cultural life that I struggled to understand and take part in when we lived there. It would have been very nice if some part of my German language instruction had included mention and even explicit lessons on part of them. You can't assume that these are topics that will be covered later on in higher level instruction, because those years quickly become about understanding media reports (radio and tv), literature, newspapers and history.

 

I had three years of high school German and more than ten college level courses. I've read multiple stories by Kafka, Brecht and Boell; but couldn't tell the difference between an advent flower arrangement and one designed for a grave.

 

All of which is a long way of saying that the more cultural, historical and, when appropriate, religious context that you can put into a language text, the better. My early verb conjugation lessons that included "Brigite mietet einen Strandkorb" and entire lessons about a trip to the beach could have included some discussion of the fact that the beach is probably the Baltic, where it tends to be more than a little windy and brisk. A German beach chair isn't just a place to put your bikini cover up, it is something that is designed to make sunning at a German beach tolerable.

 

I think mentioning church is nice, if it represents something typical. I like the idea of having an appendix with the text of the prayer (if that prayer would be typical of a church service). I'd never heard of this being sung before. That would be a neat thing to point out, perhaps with a CD that included the prayer as sung. Similarly, if there are typical campfire songs or Day of the Dead songs or sayings, then I think that would be nice to include.

 

One of the things I remember about high school German was painstakingly learning the US Flag Pledge and Happy Birthday in German. Ignoring the fact that a flag pledge is actually quite disturbing to many Germans and the fact that there are at least two perfectly good birthday songs that are not translations of Happy Birthday. I think it would have been much better to learn something culturally appropriate.

 

I would not expect to see The Lord's Prayer in an Arabic language curriculum, unless there were a particular reason for having it there (perhaps in a lesson on Lebanon or on Coptic Christians or because the language were being studied in order to do missions work). I wouldn't think twice about seeing the call to prayer explained.

[Violet Crown]

And you are right. It has been two days since I listened to that on Youtube, and it's true, I can NOT get it out of my head !! :lol: Well, at least it's pretty.

Ha! Warned you.

 

I've been singing it in Latin to

at mass for two years now. And I still get little fragments of The Indelible Spanish Version running through my head.