s/o purity, s/o early marriage preparation, Why wait? STRAPPED

[justamouse]

For our parents, who grew up during the 1950s and early 1960s, establishing oneself as an adult was a fairly straightforward process. moving out of your parents' house, getting a job, and starting a family--three markers of adulthood--unfolded in a rather swift and orderly fashion. There was little time between graduation, landing a well-paying job, getting married, and having kids. But in the late 1960s, the baby boomers then in their twenties, began charting a different course to adulthood. Driven by social, economic, and political forces, young adults began delaying definitive 'adult' behaviors such as getting married and having kids. As college and career opportunities expanded for women and minorities, more young adults began going to college instead of directly into the labor market after high school. The transition to adulthood was becoming less rigid and more ill defined. A generation later, these trends became more exacerbated. The path to adulthood for today's young adults is a full-blown obstacle course of loop-de-loop turns and jagged-edged hurdles.

 

When our parents were starting out, three factors helped smooth the transition to adulthood. the first was the fact that thee were jobs that provided good wages even for high school graduates. A college degree wasn't necessary to earn a decent living. But even if you wanted to go to college, it wasn't that expensive and grants were widely available. The second was a robust economy that lifted all boats, with productivity gains shared by workers and CEOs alike. The result was a massive growth of middleclass, which provided security and stability for families. Third, a range of public policies helped facilitate this economic mobility and opportunity: a strong minimum wage, grants for low income students to go to college, a generous unemployment insurance system, major incentives for home ownership, and a solid saftey net for those falling on hard times. Simply put, the government had your back.

 

This world no longer exists. The story of what happened is well known. The nation shifted to a service- and knowledge-based economy, dramatically changing the way we lived and worked. Relationships between employers and employees became more tenuous as corporations faced global competitors and quarterly bottom-line pressures from Wall Street. Increasingly, benefits such as health care and pension plans were provided only to well-paid workers. Wages rose quickly for educated workers and declined for those with only high school diplomas, resulting in new demands for college credentials. As most families saw their income stagnate or decline, they increasingly needed two full-time incomes just to stay afloat, which created new demands and pressures on working parents. Getting into the middle class now required a four year college degree, and even that was no guarantee of achieving the American dream.

So is there really no reason to wait if they want? I mean, you can work to position yourself optimally, but we know there's no guarantee of achieving anything. And, a college degree these days is no safe-guard against unemployment because I think most of us know highly educated people who are unemployed and wishing they could even get a job at Subway.

 

Does a young couple need so much these days that's there's no point in getting married? Economically, that may be the answer, and if so, do we turn back to the emotional reasons to get married?

 

Later the author says:

 

Becoming an adult today takes longer, requires taking more risks, and is rife with more stumbling blocks than it was a generation ago. To get a sense of how much longer the traditional path to adulthood takes, we can compare the percentage of young women and young men meeting a traditional definition of adulthood in the years 1960 and 2000: leaving home, finishing school, becoming financially independent, getting married and having a child. Four decades ago, 77 percent of women and 65 percent of men aged 30 had completed all of these transitions. In 2000, only 46 percent of women and 31 percent of men had completed all these transitions by age 30.

Edited October 1, 2011 by justamouse
schpelling

[twoforjoy]

Just want to say I could not agree more with the quoted text. That articulates what I've been seeing and thinking for so long.

 

I will say that one thing I wouldn't be surprised if we see more, and that we might need, is a return to multigenerational housing arrangements. It's my understanding that, for most of history (and still in most places), you didn't just grow up, move out, and marry (or marry then immediately move out)--people often lived with family, both because they needed time to get on their feet financially AND because their family needed their help. I do think that in many cases young married couples might need to live with family for a time, and people would need to be open to that possibility. But, I do think that in general we may see a return to that sort of living arrangement--which is still common in many other cultures--especially if we don't see a significant economic turnaround soon.

[LarlaB]

Where are those quotes from?

[KristinaBreece]

Just want to say I could not agree more with the quoted text. That articulates what I've been seeing and thinking for so long.

 

I will say that one thing I wouldn't be surprised if we see more, and that we might need, is a return to multigenerational housing arrangements. It's my understanding that, for most of history (and still in most places), you didn't just grow up, move out, and marry (or marry then immediately move out)--people often lived with family, both because they needed time to get on their feet financially AND because their family needed their help. I do think that in many cases young married couples might need to live with family for a time, and people would need to be open to that possibility. But, I do think that in general we may see a return to that sort of living arrangement--which is still common in many other cultures--especially if we don't see a significant economic turnaround soon.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Especially with the bolded.

 

I believe it will be a hard sell for most Americans, though.

[FairProspects]

Just want to say I could not agree more with the quoted text. That articulates what I've been seeing and thinking for so long.

 

:iagree:Me too. The reasons to wait are mostly economic in nature and in this economy we are increasingly seeing no economic guarantees. Re-thinking the emotional reasons for marriage is a good idea IMO.

[FairProspects]

There are people here who said they married very early. I wonder how they did it. I married at 27 (after going to college, working various jobs, etc.). At no point during that time would I have been able to reasonably support myself financially. I knew how to take care of myself so it wasn't that.

 

 

But to me that is the point. Is marriage primarily supposed to be about financially supporting yourself or is that a value that Anglo-Western culture has ascribed to it? I don't get the sense that other cultures assume marriage entails being fully financially independent at a young age (which at this rate will be significantly delayed or may never occur for the Lost Generation of 25-34 y.o.s according to the A.P. this week).

[OnTheBrink]

I really want my dd to finish college before marriage. Naturally, I can't control that, but it's a strong belief I have and one I've tried to instill into her. My reason, even if she finds her "true love", is that marriage is work. Having a family is work. If she wants a college degree, she should get it before taking on the additional responsibilities and work of a husband and family.

 

However, I don't think college is the golden ticket or that everyone is college material, and I don't hold my belief in "college first" to be the one and only way. But for my kids, who want college degrees, I'm strongly encouraging them to finish before taking on a family.

[FairProspects]

I really want my dd to finish college before marriage. Naturally, I can't control that, but it's a strong belief I have and one I've tried to instill into her. My reason, even if she finds her "true love", is that marriage is work. Having a family is work. If she wants a college degree, she should get it before taking on the additional responsibilities and work of a husband and family.

 

However, I don't think college is the golden ticket or that everyone is college material, and I don't hold my belief in "college first" to be the one and only way. But for my kids, who want college degrees, I'm strongly encouraging them to finish before taking on a family.

 

Can I ask why? I got married before finishing a college degree, and it was actually easier for me to finish being married (more financial aid in the form of grants, and a quieter apartment) than before I was married!

 

I can understand that caring for children could make it difficult to finish a degree, but having the support of a spouse can be a big encouragement to finish one!

[FairProspects]

Just out of curiosity, was your spouse also in school? Was he older? I am still curious how people make this work if both are students.

 

My dh had just graduated and he was working full-time (albeit at a series of temp jobs that year). After that year, he went back to grad school while still working full-time and I went on to grad school. So yes, for a couple of years we were both students, but I was working part-time and he was working full-time. We made it work, just like adults who were already graduated. :) It was crazy busy, but we were young and in love and happy together.

[OnTheBrink]

Can I ask why? I got married before finishing a college degree, and it was actually easier for me to finish being married (more financial aid in the form of grants, and a quieter apartment) than before I was married!

 

I can understand that caring for children could make it difficult to finish a degree, but having the support of a spouse can be a big encouragement to finish one!

 

I really want my dd to finish college before marriage. Naturally, I can't control that, but it's a strong belief I have and one I've tried to instill into her. My reason, even if she finds her "true love", is that marriage is work. Having a family is work. If she wants a college degree, she should get it before taking on the additional responsibilities and work of a husband and family.

However, I don't think college is the golden ticket or that everyone is college material, and I don't hold my belief in "college first" to be the one and only way. But for my kids, who want college degrees, I'm strongly encouraging them to finish before taking on a family.

 

.

[LibraryLover]

The world is so much smaller today. Young adults of the 50's didn't travel as young people do today. This is a big exciting world with so many more opportunities than there were for folks back in the 1950s. A lot of those assmembly line jobs paid the bills well, but they didn't bring much satisfaction or autonomy. Offspring of the 60's and 70's did experience how miserable their parents were.

 

It's a lot easier to study abroad, see the world, strap on backpack and set out on an adventure without a couple of crying kids in your arms or their financial needs weighing you down. I can't think of a single reason I would *want* my kids to be married or have kids before they had experienced anything beyond their own backyard. If they wait unti 37, 28, 30, so what? Some of the most mature parents I know are the older ones. SOme of the younger folks I know with children are stumbling and/or are resentful, even as they adore their children. It could go either way, I suppose, but not rushing into parenthood and marriage is not a bad idea.

 

How is having a kid a marker of true adulthood? Anyone with a ripe egg and good swimmers can make a baby. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Edited October 1, 2011 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

Where are those quotes from?

 

Sorry, it's STRAPPED by Tamara Draut. I thought I linked it. Mea Culpa.

[FairProspects]

My reason, even if she finds her "true love", is that marriage is work. Having a family is work. If she wants a college degree, she should get it before taking on the additional responsibilities and work of a husband and family.

 

 

Ok, but I don't agree that this is any different than balancing responsibilities in general. She may work after she is married, right? Then she would have to balance her work and her family, which is no less difficult. I view being in college as a job for time, and to me it is the same balance as working and maintaining a relationship or family. Obviously, the considerations are different for each individual, but I think it is selling young adults short to assume that they can't or shouldn't balance it.

[Tabrett]

Both dh and my family help us out when we got married (I was 20 yo and have been married 20 years). They still payed for our college and help us in anyway needed. Our families have always supported each other when needs arise.

Maybe our families are odd? My great-grandmother gave my grandmother land for a house and in return my grandmother did the same for her children. My dh's parents would/are doing the same.

We go on vacation with both dh and my families, we share expenses. We do chores for each other if needed. At the moment we live away from both sides, but the rest of the family that lives near to each other share meals several times a weeks.

 

Is this odd? I couldn't imagine making a dc be completely self-sufficient just because they got married.

 

We could live with our family if need be. It would not be what I would desire, but I always know we have a place to live.

 

I plan on being the same way with my dc. I will always help if possible. I don't believe one should put off marriage for finances. Dh and I put off having our 2nd dc because of finances. We ended up waiting 9 years between the 1st and 2nd. We still were struggling, but I was getting old. I wish I had of had my 3 little ones when I was younger and had more energy instead of waiting to be financially ready. If I hadn't caved in and went ahead and had the dc because of my age, I would have never had them because our finances never reached that perfect number.

[LibraryLover]

Ok, but I don't agree that this is any different than balancing responsibilities in general. She may work after she is married, right? Then she would have to balance her work and her family, which is no less difficult. I view being in college as a job for time, and to me it is the same balance as working and maintaining a relationship or family. Obviously, the considerations are different for each individual, but I think it is selling young adults short to assume that they can't or shouldn't balance it.

 

 

I think a lot of folks can balance/manage it. I think if they truly want to do this, they have the right to do it. I don't happen to want this for my own children. I have one who will probably marry on the young side. I would discourage marraige while in college, although I wouldn't die on that hill.

[CalicoKat]

:iagree::iagree:

 

Especially with the bolded.

 

I believe it will be a hard sell for most Americans, though.

 

:iagree: I say this as one who has moved into this position recently too. My sister & her family also. While we're not sharing housing we are sharing babysitting resources, garden produce & canning, and recently the butchering. Oh yes, help doing the chores around the farms too!

 

Leveraging our resources to cover for each other and make each other's lives richer than we would otherwise be able to do independently.

 

My sister canned the tomatoes this season. I canned the grape jam. My mother did the pears. We split things in thirds and divided for each family. We bought a half a cow and our families got together to butcher the 200 chickens we raised together this year.

[warneral]

Can I ask why? I got married before finishing a college degree, and it was actually easier for me to finish being married (more financial aid in the form of grants, and a quieter apartment) than before I was married!

 

I can understand that caring for children could make it difficult to finish a degree, but having the support of a spouse can be a big encouragement to finish one!

 

Ditto here. We got married with 1 more year to finish college. Got better financial aid (which we needed anyways) and finished with no problem. Living with DH in an off campus apartment was far less distracting then living with friends (who would most likely be partiers).

 

Then we were both out into the world with the determination to find one location to move to. Both got professional jobs, which made it easier to establish a home than had we been on our own.

[OnTheBrink]

Ok, but I don't agree that this is any different than balancing responsibilities in general. She may work after she is married, right? Then she would have to balance her work and her family, which is no less difficult. I view being in college as a job for time, and to me it is the same balance as working and maintaining a relationship or family. Obviously, the considerations are different for each individual, but I think it is selling young adults short to assume that they can't or shouldn't balance it.

 

Okie doke.

[justamouse]

Just want to say I could not agree more with the quoted text. That articulates what I've been seeing and thinking for so long.

 

I will say that one thing I wouldn't be surprised if we see more, and that we might need, is a return to multigenerational housing arrangements. It's my understanding that, for most of history (and still in most places), you didn't just grow up, move out, and marry (or marry then immediately move out)--people often lived with family, both because they needed time to get on their feet financially AND because their family needed their help. I do think that in many cases young married couples might need to live with family for a time, and people would need to be open to that possibility. But, I do think that in general we may see a return to that sort of living arrangement--which is still common in many other cultures--especially if we don't see a significant economic turnaround soon.

 

I have to say, that's the one thing I thought of while reading this book, is that yes, an immediate answer to this is multigenerational living. Now, that can look as diverse as the families (those wee little houses on a corner of the property would work in this instance!).

 

I am a total introvert and I love my privacy, but that really doesn't matter because within a few years I'll be taking in my MIL, and, I'll have a college student home. A college student who already might be married because she and her boyfriend are very serious, and despite my reservations, I'll have to say, she picked an excellent one. He is everything I would have guided her to.

 

Even though he is in college now, and will be graduating in another year, and she will be graduating HS with a employable trade, she already KNOWS they're going to need a few years of savings under them to be able to move out-and she also wants to go to college. She also already knows she won't be able to have a huge wedding, that she wants to save that $ for a house.

 

In all honesty, the only way I see these kids making it today is with lots and lots of help-and, is that really a bad thing? I mean, shouldn't we be doing that anyway? Isn't that what family is really about? Is all this disconnection a good thing? Should we be so self sufficient that we don't need family?

 

Has the disconnection corporate greed has brought trickled down to families?

 

I lived with BOTH of my grandparents while my parents saved $ to buy a house and my Dh did the same. His grandparents made his parents a small, two bedroom apartment in the basement and they lived there for 5 years while they started their family.

 

 

The world is so much smaller today. Young adults of the 50's didn't travel as young people do today. This is a big exciting world with so many more opportunities than there were for folks back in the 1950s. A lot of those assmembly line jobs paid the bills well, but they didn't bring much satisfaction or autonomy. Offspring of the 60's and 70's did experience how miserable their parents were.

 

It's a lot easier to study abroad, see the world, strap on backpack and set out on an adventure without a couple of crying kids in your arms or their financial needs weighing you down. I can't think of a single reason I would *want* my kids to be married or have kids before they had experienced anything beyond their own backyard. If they wait unti 37, 28, 30, so what? Some of the most mature parents I know are the older ones. SOme of the younger folks I know with children are stumbling and/or are resentful, even as they adore their children. It could go either way, I suppose, but not rushing into parenthood and marriage is not a bad idea.

 

How is having a kid a marker of true adulthood? Anyone with a ripe egg and good swimmers can make a baby. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

But you're working off the premise that the young adults are incapable of being mature enough to start a family. And, obviously, each person will have their own goals. Some will want to travel, perhaps they'll want to travel as newlyweds (if they are of the same backpacking, roughing it mindset), perhaps alone, but doesn't that take as much maturity as starting a family?

 

And yes, in a way you're right, anyone can make a baby, but there are adults who fall into the same qualifications for crappy parents-and they're older (see recent Pearl thread). If you want to take that position, you're going to need to start handing out parenting licenses. :001_smile:

 

Both dh and my family help us out when we got married (I was 20 yo and have been married 20 years). They still payed for our college and help us in anyway needed. Our families have always supported each other when needs arise.

 

Maybe our families are odd? My great-grandmother gave my grandmother land for a house and in return my grandmother did the same for her children. My dh's parents would/are doing the same.

 

We go on vacation with both dh and my families, we share expenses. We do chores for each other if needed. At the moment we live away from both sides, but the rest of the family that lives near to each other share meals several times a weeks.

 

Is this odd? I couldn't imagine making a dc be completely self-sufficient just because they got married.

 

We could live with our family if need be. It would not be what I would desire, but I always know we have a place to live.

 

I plan on being the same way with my dc. I will always help if possible. I don't believe one should put off marriage for finances. Dh and I put off having our 2nd dc because of finances. We ended up waiting 9 years between the 1st and 2nd. We still were struggling, but I was getting old. I wish I had of had my 3 little ones when I was younger and had more energy instead of waiting to be financially ready. If I hadn't caved in and went ahead and had the dc because of my age, I would have never had them because our finances never reached that perfect number.

 

Nope, you're not alone, we're the same. My Dh started his first business on a 3000 loan he got from his parents. That was back in HS, and now he's degreed and running a large business (which is the same as what he started in HS). We're working hard so we can give our own children the same leg up.

 

Maybe this was already brought up in the other thread (I didn't read it all). Is it possible some people from very religious families get married very young so they can live like adults (including having sex...yeah I'm just going to come out and say it)? I might have married my first love for that reason. I wasn't concerned with committing any sort of sin though. I am SO glad I did not marry him. It would have been a mistake.

 

Is it realistic to think a person will wait for sex until they are married if they marry in their mid 20s or later? But is it the best idea to marry someone in your late teens because you want to have sex (and not sin)?

 

This is coming from a person who doesn't view sex outside of marriage as sin though. So maybe I just can't get the reasoning because of that.

 

That was brought up, yup.

Edited October 1, 2011 by justamouse

[FairProspects]

It's a lot easier to study abroad, see the world, strap on backpack and set out on an adventure without a couple of crying kids in your arms or their financial needs weighing you down. I can't think of a single reason I would *want* my kids to be married or have kids before they had experienced anything beyond their own backyard. If they wait unti 37, 28, 30, so what? Some of the most mature parents I know are the older ones. SOme of the younger folks I know with children are stumbling and/or are resentful, even as they adore their children. It could go either way, I suppose, but not rushing into parenthood and marriage is not a bad idea.

 

A couple of thoughts.

 

First, while travel is a wonderful thing, how does that make a better marker of adulthood than marriage or having a child? I know plenty of irresponsible, well-traveled people who have done stupid things abroad. Also, history is littered with well-educated adults who never left their own country due to financial constraints, and it had little to no impact on their ability to function as adults in society.

 

Second, in today's modern world, these conditions (being young and traveling) are not mutually exclusive. Dh and I married at 22 and 21 respectively, and we had both traveled abroad. Dh had traveled extensively including having adventures on his own, and I had studied abroad for a semester in addition to other travels. We both had a chance to get around on our own in foreign countries, learn foreign languages, be responsible for ourselves, and still get married young.

 

I do agree with you, however, that I hope for these kinds of experiences for my children. They were invaluable to both me and dh, but I do recognize that life such as it is, does not always pan out as we hope. Fortunately I do think that my kids can be successful in life, whether or not they get to do a lot of traveling.

[dangermom]

I can't see anything wrong with getting married at 21 or so even if you're poor. I dunno, when we got married my husband still had 1.5 years to go in college (I had graduated, but then went to grad school after he finished) and we were each earning $600/month. Economically speaking it wasn't any different than if we'd each been living with roommates--except we used the money people gave us at our wedding to take a trip to the UK that we never could have afforded otherwise!

 

If your beliefs dictate having children right away that makes it a little more tricky; many people in my religion don't wait but there's no rule, and we waited a few years until we felt able to handle babies (not money-wise). Still, my friend had a baby in the middle of college and still finished her physics degree; it just took a little longer. On the plus side they could live in married student housing so they saved a lot of money!

[Joyofsixreboot]

I find the way we've pushed adulthood further and further back annoying. What is wrong with living with family. Dh and I lived in an efficiency apartment. We didn't care. Is it really about people expecting a certain lifestyle? Two cars, a house, a vacation? Marriage has gone from growing together and pulling together to being about lifestyle. Just my $.02 and not everyone of course just in western culture in general.

[texasmama]

The hope that I hold regarding my children waiting until they are mid twenties or older to get married is not about financial/educational goals. It is about emotional maturity. Obviously, many young people are mature enough to make a decision to marry and carry that through with great responsibility. This increases (theoretically and hopefully) with life experience, which comes with age and maturity.

 

That is my own personal bias, though, and I will not object strongly if my children make a different choice. They get to make their own decisions and live them out. I can advise them as best I know how based on my own wisdom and experience, but I am fallible, cannot see the future and am ultimately always open to being wrong or to changing my bias on a case by case basis. Life is uncertain. There are no absolutes in terms of what is universally best for all concerning the age of marriage.

[sparrow]

There are people here who said they married very early. I wonder how they did it. I married at 27 (after going to college, working various jobs, etc.). At no point during that time would I have been able to reasonably support myself financially. I knew how to take care of myself so it wasn't that.

 

I won't kick my kids out at any point, but I'll admit I don't want them marrying and living with me at any age (unless there is an extenuating circumstance). It's one thing to live with my own kid, it's another thing to live with someone else. I value my privacy.

 

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread though so I might not be making any sense.

 

 

We married as a newly turned 24 yo and a newly turned 22 yo. I was still in college (and I was the 24 yo!) and we were both working full-time. We lived together, before we were married and for a year after, in a 3 bedroom rental with two other friends. We saved our money, got better jobs, I quit college, and we bought a house the second year we were married. We bought a house for several 10's of thousands LESS than what the bank TOLD us we could afford.

 

We never did without, but have always had simpler tastes. Our extravagances have always been good beer, books, and CDs :D.

 

That's how we did it. It was only 17 years ago, but times are much harder now.

[Veritaserum]

There are people here who said they married very early. I wonder how they did it. I married at 27 (after going to college, working various jobs, etc.). At no point during that time would I have been able to reasonably support myself financially. I knew how to take care of myself so it wasn't that.

 

I won't kick my kids out at any point, but I'll admit I don't want them marrying and living with me at any age (unless there is an extenuating circumstance). It's one thing to live with my own kid, it's another thing to live with someone else. I value my privacy.

 

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread though so I might not be making any sense.

 

I moved out of my parents' house at 17 to go away to college. I got married at 19, had a baby at 20, and graduated from college and bought my first house at 21.

 

How did we do it? I think the biggest thing is that neither of us had the expectation of relying on our parents past high school. It was sink or swim, so we swam. I worked through high school and saved money. I worked hard academically so that I got scholarships. Dh and I both worked while we went to college because we had to. We got married during my sophomore year. Dh got a real job in his field a week before our wedding. Our first baby was born between my junior and senior years. I never considered not finishing. We made it work.

 

I do not plan on my children living with me past high school except for extenuating circumstances or between semesters at college.

[MindyD]

My dh and I married while we were both in college. Dh was a junior (24) and I was a sophomore (19). We were both full-time students, we both worked at least part-time, and dh was in the Reserves. Honestly, college and marriage were easy to do together. It was the surprise baby that I had my senior year of college that threw me for a loop. Then dh being activated towards the beginning of my last semester that really made things interesting! Still I graduated on time, with Honors, magna cum laude. So it IS doable. I guess if you find the right person, then why wait for years and years?

[Jennifer3141]

I want my kids to wait to get married because I want them both to have lives and interests outside of family obligations. I want my kids to blow money on whatever they wants for awhile. I want them to backpack through Fance like I did and discover they are clever enough just on their own to navigate the world.

 

I want them to be secure financially and emotionally before tying themselves to other human beings because a good marriage makes your life worth living. A horrible one does not. It take emotional maturity to figure that out. And a dash of wisdom.

 

I was the oldest mom in our LLL and flipping LOVED it. Not just because I had the diaper stash to end all diaper stashs but becuase I was secure enough in myself that I figured out how to do this crazy parenting thing without cracking up. We attachment parented (still do!) but I didn't live and breathe by Dr. Spears. If I thought it was crap, I dumped it. No worries. I cooed at my baby girl in French because it came easily to me from my old post college days. Something about her eyes made me nostalgic for French countrysides. I remember one sweet LLL "kid" who found that so exotic. :001_smile:

 

I rescued myself a few times before meeting DH so I knew I could do it if and when the time came again. And he came to me quite accomplished and confident.

 

DH had sown his wild oats by the time we had kids. Some with me. Some with other women. I had an interesting past that I cannot wait to regale my DD with stories from. :D

 

We had no/fewer doubts when we met each other because we'd been around the block a few times so that when something that could last came to us, we appreciated it for what it was - rare and special.

 

So when I walked across that field to marry DH, I knew he was my choice. And I knew I'd catch him if he fell (and I have!) and that he'd do the same for me (I'm still waiting to get paid back!!! lolol)

 

I look at who I was at 20 and shudder. No wonder I couldn't pick my "soulmate." I didn't know who I was at the time!!!

[FairProspects]

I just get this sense that people are saying I must have just not done it right.

 

No, its not that at all. You obviously had more obstacles to surmount than I did growing up. And it seems to me like your path was perfect for you and gave you the time you needed on your own. But everyone's circumstances are different and some people are ready to marry early and make it work, and others want to get married later and make it work. I don't think either decision should be derided as "right" or "wrong" as a general rule.

 

My parents have a fantastic marriage that has been a great example to me in how to grow and face responsibilities as well as opportunities together. I think in part that made me want to get married young since a vibrant family culture was modeled to me as the one constant facet of life regardless of financial or physical circumstances. There will always be some drama going on in life, you might as well face it within the context of a loving relationship and family. :)

[Mama Geek]

I was 20 and dh was 26 when we got married. He started his Master's degree about 6 months after we married. I was in the middle of my 2nd year of college. His first semester was put on credit card, we took out student loans and I received grants. At some point his parents lent us some money. He worked as a grad assistant. We went to a good college in a low cost of living area. We were close to campus, we got lots of fresh fruits and veggies at the local flea markets and did a bunch of pick your own stuff as well. A friend had a cow butchered for us that costs us about $2 a lbs after everything. With both of us being engineers and handling our money well we had our student loans paid off in less than 5 years.

[justamouse]

 

I just get this sense that people are saying I must have just not done it right.

 

Not at all, the point of my thread is that now, they CAN'T do it. I mean, maybe, if the stars align, the clouds part, and the moon breaks through, but if that doesn't happen?

[FairProspects]

I want my kids to wait to get married because I want them both to have lives and interests outside of family obligations. I want my kids to blow money on whatever they wants for awhile. I want them to backpack through Fance like I did and discover they are clever enough just on their own to navigate the world.

 

I can assure you I have/had all of these things even the blowing money unfortunately :tongue_smilie:. Oh, that and I backpacked through the British Isles instead of France ;).

 

I'm glad it worked out well for you to wait, but my point still stands that both options are valid and I want to have an open mind with my kids whether they choose to marry early or late.

[Audrey]

I will keep my expression of opinion on the tame side here, but I have very strong opinions on this. To be upfront, I don't agree with marrying very young (before the early 20's). I don't agree with the cultural sub-set that 'trains' women to be wives and mothers to the exclusion of other life options. I also don't agree with marrying and then living with your parents. If you are not able to be independent, you are not mature enough to marry. I also think that independence is something that should be achieved before marriage. For women, especially, I think it is important to have the skills needed to survive and thrive on one's own. I've seen too many women 'lost at sea' when their spouses left or died.

[FairProspects]

I also don't agree with marrying and then living with your parents. If you are not able to be independent, you are not mature enough to marry. I also think that independence is something that should be achieved before marriage.

 

So, in keeping with the theme of the Strapped article, and the other one I mentioned about The Lost Generation in the A.P. this week, what if financial independence or having your own living arrangement is never possible in this economy for a subset of people (those ages 25-34)? Should they never marry or have children then?

[Jennifer3141]

No, its not that at all. You obviously had more obstacles to surmount than I did growing up. And it seems to me like your path was perfect for you and gave you the time you needed on your own. But everyone's circumstances are different and some people are ready to marry early and make it work, and others want to get married later and make it work. I don't think either decision should be derided as "right" or "wrong" as a general rule.

 

My parents have a fantastic marriage that has been a great example to me in how to grow and face responsibilities as well as opportunities together. I think in part that made me want to get married young since a vibrant family culture was modeled to me as the one constant facet of life regardless of financial or physical circumstances. There will always be some drama going on in life, you might as well face it within the context of a loving relationship and family. :)

 

Fair, you raise such good facets of getting married young. So I can more easily understand your point of view. You and I look at the world just a little differently.

 

But as a feminist, it's important to me that especially my DD live a life without a spouse for awhile so that she (and my son too) learn they can face those inevitable life problems on their own, without needing anyone.

 

But I do see your viewpoint in that there would be value in having someone who has faced them all with you too. That's just not what I hope my kids choose.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Jennifer3141

[Veritaserum]

My parents didn't require rent and such when I lived with them as a high school student. I didn't own a car until dh and I got married. He didn't own a car either, but we bought one when he got a job in his field. We walked or biked to where we needed to go. If we were lucky, we got to borrow someone's car.

 

I don't know exactly what made growing up so much different for me than it seems to be for other young adults. I'm sure some of it had to do with expectations. My dad was a wonderful example for working hard. He worked full-time (graveyard shift at a factory) while going to school full-time. He had five children, one of them with severe special needs, by the time he graduated with his PhD at age 35. He graduated with no debt. If my dad could do all of that, I had no doubt that I could do similarly.

 

I was raised to expect and want to be self-sufficient, get an education, and start a family at a young age (if the opportunity presented itself).

 

Honestly, I am utterly turned off to the idea of multi-generational assistance because of dh's family. After five years of various members of his family living with us, some of whom had NO sense of boundaries, I am not keen to ever again live with extended family. Ever. Even with my own adult children. I've also seen financial gifts get squandered away because of poor financial habits. I felt like I was enabling harmful behavior by continuing to help people who had the means to help themselves if they changed their habits or simply had to fend for themselves. Helping was hurting because there was no real incentive to change. I think that's what prevents me from being open to having adult children live with me. I want them to know that they can and will stand on their own two feet.

[Jennifer3141]

I will keep my expression of opinion on the tame side here, but I have very strong opinions on this. To be upfront, I don't agree with marrying very young (before the early 20's). I don't agree with the cultural sub-set that 'trains' women to be wives and mothers to the exclusion of other life options. I also don't agree with marrying and then living with your parents. If you are not able to be independent, you are not mature enough to marry. I also think that independence is something that should be achieved before marriage. For women, especially, I think it is important to have the skills needed to survive and thrive on one's own. I've seen too many women 'lost at sea' when their spouses left or died.

 

 

And well, there's that too. But we've been managed to raise our kids without Patriarchy as much as we can in thie society so yes, there's no way in heck I'd ever sign onto a marriage of my children where the female was supposed to be subservient to a male head of household. DS never better try that with me alive and I'd kidnap DD before I allowed her to enter a marriage like that. :lol:

[Audrey]

So, in keeping with the theme of the Strapped article, and the other one I mentioned about The Lost Generation in the A.P. this week, what if financial independence or having your own living arrangement is never possible in this economy for a subset of people (those ages 25-34)? Should they never marry or have children then?

 

 

No. Not if it means you are going to be living off of others (parents, family) in order to support your spouse and children.

[justamouse]

I will keep my expression of opinion on the tame side here, but I have very strong opinions on this. To be upfront, I don't agree with marrying very young (before the early 20's). I don't agree with the cultural sub-set that 'trains' women to be wives and mothers to the exclusion of other life options. I also don't agree with marrying and then living with your parents. If you are not able to be independent, you are not mature enough to marry. I also think that independence is something that should be achieved before marriage. For women, especially, I think it is important to have the skills needed to survive and thrive on one's own. I've seen too many women 'lost at sea' when their spouses left or died.

 

Well, I don't think anyone on this thread is giving anecdotal evidence of this training, even.

 

And, *shrug* Both our parents had successful marriages and are doing just fine, even taking in their parents later n in life. I loved living with my grandparents, and I loved it when Nana came to live with us. We were amazing, amazingly close. I loved her dearly. Dh feels the same about his grandmother. We wouldn't trade those memories or time for all the independence for the world.

 

If my Dh dies, I'm not going to be lost at sea. Devastated that he died? Yes, but I'll be well taken care of and wouldn't have to work a day in the rest of my life, I'd probably go back to school at some point and be a perpetual student.

 

The women I know who are 'lost at sea' after a spouses death aren't financially lost, they're emotionally devastated.

[FairProspects]

Fair, you raise such good facets of getting married young. So I can more easily understand your point of view. You and I look at the world just a little differently.

 

But as a feminist, it's important to me that especially my DD live a life without a spouse for awhile so that she (and my son too) learn they can face those inevitable life problems on their own, without needing anyone.

 

But I do see your viewpoint in that there would be value in having someone who has faced them all with you too. That's just not what I hope my kids choose.

 

Thank you for your gracious post. I appreciate being able to have a discussion in such a thoughtful, polite manner. I do see too where we view the world a little bit differently. Honestly, I don't see it as being important to solve life's inevitable problems all on your own. Even were I not married, I would be looking to the support of my family and my community during those difficult times. I believe in being interconnected in a healthy way.

 

Incidentally, I consider myself a feminist too. To me that means women being able to make the right choices for themselves, early marriage among them. :)

[Audrey]

Well, I don't think anyone on this thread is giving anecdotal evidence of this training, even.

 

And, *shrug* Both our parents had successful marriages and are doing just fine, even taking in their parents later n in life. I loved living with my grandparents, and I loved it when Nana came to live with us. We were amazing, amazingly close. I loved her dearly. Dh feels the same about his grandmother. We wouldn't trade those memories or time for all the independence for the world.

 

If my Dh dies, I'm not going to be lost at sea. Devastated that he died? Yes, but I'll be well taken care of and wouldn't have to work a day in the rest of my life, I'd probably go back to school at some point and be a perpetual student.

 

The women I know who are 'lost at sea' after a spouses death aren't financially lost, they're emotionally devastated.

 

 

That's nice for you. It doesn't change my opinion one bit.

[FairProspects]

No. Not if it means you are going to be living off of others (parents, family) in order to support your spouse and children.

 

Thanks for your candid opinion! So, in continuing with this logic, if at some point you (hypothetical you) become unable to support your spouse and family through unemployment or disability or some other tragic circumstance, what then? Should the same logic apply? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to bait you or anything, just understand your POV.

[Veritaserum]

I will keep my expression of opinion on the tame side here, but I have very strong opinions on this. To be upfront, I don't agree with marrying very young (before the early 20's). I don't agree with the cultural sub-set that 'trains' women to be wives and mothers to the exclusion of other life options. I also don't agree with marrying and then living with your parents. If you are not able to be independent, you are not mature enough to marry. I also think that independence is something that should be achieved before marriage. For women, especially, I think it is important to have the skills needed to survive and thrive on one's own. I've seen too many women 'lost at sea' when their spouses left or died.

 

Well, not all of us who married young did so because we were trained to be dutiful, submissive wives. Puke. :ack2: I am a feminist and so is my dad. :D He raised me and my sister to be confident, independent women.

 

I would be heartbroken if dh died, but I would survive. I lived with roommates in college before I got married. I am completely satisfied with the path I chose for myself. I hope my daughters will pursue whatever path is right for them, whether that's marriage early, late, or not at all. :) But whatever they choose, they're on their own financially. ;)

[Audrey]

Thanks for your candid opinion! So, in continuing with this logic, if at some point you (hypothetical you) become unable to support your spouse and family through unemployment or disability or some other tragic circumstance, what then? Should the same logic apply? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to bait you or anything, just understand your POV.

 

 

No, that's baiting and I already said I had strong opinions. I stated them. Find someone else to fight with.

 

Good day!

[Jennifer3141]

Thank you for your gracious post. I appreciate being able to have a discussion in such a thoughtful, polite manner. I do see too where we view the world a little bit differently. Honestly, I don't see it as being important to solve life's inevitable problems all on your own. Even were I not married, I would be looking to the support of my family and my community during those difficult times. I believe in being interconnected in a healthy way.

 

Incidentally, I consider myself a feminist too. To me that means women being able to make the right choices for themselves, early marriage among them. :)

 

I see what you're saying again!! :)

 

If something happened to DH on his way home tonight, I can easily see surrounding myself with my friends for awhile. Probably not my family as much because well, I need to keep some distance there for my own mental health.

 

But I'd kick my friends out eventually. I'd need my space back. Even with DH, we both need "space" more so than most other people we know. I like our marriage to two wheels spinning independently but going in the same direction and usually at the same speed.

 

I look at my kids right now and I see both of them have our independence. So I'm not sure early marriage would even be an issue for them. DD has her mommy fantasies but they only come AFTER she's been a queen and a veterinarian and a paleontologist. :D

[FairProspects]

No, that's baiting and I already said I had strong opinions. I stated them. Find someone else to fight with.

 

Good day!

 

Ok. I specifically said I wasn't trying to bait you since I don't understand how the situations are different and was asking for a clarification from those who think they are. I don't like fighting either, but I do occasionally like discussing controversial ideas with those who have different opinions than my own, since sometimes it leads to a change in my own thinking. I wasn't meaning to offend you though, so if you think it would lead to a fight, nevermind. Have a nice day!

Edited October 2, 2011 by FairProspects

[Mrs Mungo]

DH was 22 and I was 21 when we got married fresh out of college. If you want the sort of lifestyle that allows you to see the world, you will pick a vocation that allows it. We traveled with our kids, even when they were babies. I would bet our kids have been to more countries than most of the adults here. Sure, it was different than traveling as young, single adults, but I don't think it was *worse*.

 

Again, it's not that I'm dependent upon him, we are dependent upon each other to continue the lifestyle we have chosen. We are both strong. Our marriage is strong. It hasn't been problem-free, but no marriage is.

 

Sadly, I've known a lot of people who have lost a spouse young. I haven't found it more likely for someone to be "lost at sea" because they married young or were a stay-at-home-mom or a working dad or whatever. The main thing that seems to drive what happens is personality.

 

I don't know how much I agree with the article. I am the oldest grandchild on both sides of my family. My third born sister has a good job in the oil industry, she lives in a house by herself. My youngest sister is a nurse, she is married with a child and has a house and everything. Cousin #1 is the manager of a restaurant, his wife works for the state, they have a house and baby and everything. Cousin #2 works for a publishing company, she's not married but not because she can't afford it, she travels a lot and such. Cousin #3 works in the banking industry, he does live at home, but again, he could probably afford to live on his own if he wanted to.

 

It's true that a lot of their friends in that age group are not married, but I don't think it's a matter of affording it. I think it's more that parents are happy letting their 20-30 year old kids live with them, and the kids are saving money, traveling, buying nice things, etc. Just what I see in my circles.

[Mommyof4ks]

Can I ask why? I got married before finishing a college degree, and it was actually easier for me to finish being married (more financial aid in the form of grants, and a quieter apartment) than before I was married!

 

I can understand that caring for children could make it difficult to finish a degree, but having the support of a spouse can be a big encouragement to finish one!

 

This was true for us too. Our financial aid went from mainly loans to mainly grants once we married. I worked full time and went to school part time, and my dh did the opposite until dd was born. He graduated a few mnths after her birth, I quit work and went to school full time. It was hard, but we did just fine. We were even able to buy a house when she was 4 months old.

 

I think it is a great idea for multiple generations to live together. Because of where I live, there are many immigrants here, and I am in awe of their living arrangements. Several generations live together, grandma helps with the kids while the parents of the littles work to pay the bills, and everyone is happy. No one does without, and while not everyone in the household makes money, they do all have a job to keep the family going. They know what it means to put family first, and it warms my heart.

 

I am not at all opposed to having my kids and their families live with us assuming that they pull their weight in some way. No one over 18 will sit on the couch and watch tv or play video games while others pay their way in my house. We can afford some amazing vacations that way too! As a family we love to travel, and if we only had to pay for one phone line, one electric bill, one water bill (the base charge is high, but over that is not much), and so on between several families, then we could use that money for fun stuff.

[twoforjoy]

FWIW, I have a graduate degree, and I would be a wreck financially if DH died. He had a doctorate and he'd be pretty bad-off financially if I died, as well, since we'd lose my part-time income, and the kids would need child care. We'd both be in a difficult situation, financially, if the other died.

 

I don't see that as a terrible thing. I don't think independence of the type we're talking about here--where your life partner could die and you'd go on just fine financially--is realistic for most people, male or female. People are interdependent and need one another. I don't think there's anything oppressive or anti-feminist about that.

 

If that happened, the one of us left would probably end up moving in with one of our sets of parents. As it is, if we end up moving back east, we'll probably share a home with my ILs, so that we can help them out (my FIL's health isn't great) and so we could all contribute financially. I don't know, I'm just becoming more and more of the mindset that our "do it all on your own, be independent" mentality isn't particularly progressive or practical for an interesting number of people.

Edited October 1, 2011 by twoforjoy

[OnTheBrink]

I will keep my expression of opinion on the tame side here, but I have very strong opinions on this. To be upfront, I don't agree with marrying very young (before the early 20's). I don't agree with the cultural sub-set that 'trains' women to be wives and mothers to the exclusion of other life options. I also don't agree with marrying and then living with your parents. If you are not able to be independent, you are not mature enough to marry. I also think that independence is something that should be achieved before marriage. For women, especially, I think it is important to have the skills needed to survive and thrive on one's own. I've seen too many women 'lost at sea' when their spouses left or died.

 

I agree completely.

 

No, that's baiting and I already said I had strong opinions. I stated them. Find someone else to fight with.

 

Good day!

 

Deja vu all over again! LOL