S/O "Can you still be a Christian.."

[Mommy22alyns]

I think that some people just don't understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to live in a world where everyone agrees with you and acts accordingly.

 

They are making it so hard on themselves by constantly being on the lookout for "sinners" and staying away from them.

 

This. It makes for a pretty lonely life if you can only be around perfect people. :glare:

[Wheres Toto]

I once belonged to a secular homeschool group that met at a park every other Tuesday. On one of those Tuesdays a church hs group met there too, but they would not associate with us (and were rude to people who approached them). Oh, and there was one dad in the group. One day one of the little girls in the group asked, "why are there several mommies and only one daddy in your family?" I said, "I guess that explains why they don't associate with us!" :lol:

 

:lol: Just goes to show, people will "see" what they expect (or fear) to see.

[Heather in Neverland]

Her views are not rare though, and that's the problem. If I had to put a label on her, it'd be a type of cultural Christianity, that's mixed with extreme homophobia.

 

I am a pretty conservative Christian and I work at a REALLY conservative Christian school and I grew up in a church that was SO conservative it could be described as a cult and I have NEVER heard anyone speak with hatred about gays.

 

I have heard the behavior described as sin and I do know people who seem to think it is a worse sin than other sins which I disagree with. But the only time I have ever heard a Christian vehemently expressing hatred for gays is the occasional whack job on TV.

 

In fact, based on the number of Christians in that other post who said they fully support gay marriage, I can't even say that hatred of gays is widespread including in Christian circles that I am familiar with. Although I do know a lot of non-Christians who are pretty verbal about it. And I won't even talk about the attitude of the Muslims in this country toward it. You know, Sharia law and all that....

[Joanne]

The point is that people, (gay, straight, bi, whatever) do not have the "right" to engage in whatever sexual activities they happen to desire. Some desires are ordered towards the way God designed human seuality--and some are not. We don't have a right to engage in sexual behaviors that hurt other people. It hurts society. It even hurts the people who engage in it.

 

We must frame the idea behind the words "right to" differently. :confused:

 

I actually have the right participate in whatever sexual activities I desire if I have a consentual partner (or the right toys ;)). :D

 

I fail to see how homosexual sex is different from heterosexual sex, or how it would fit into the idea that it might hurt people.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Jesus didn't "gravitate" towards the sinners. He sought them out and loved on them...but He led them to repent of their sin, not to dwell in it and embrace it.

 

:iagree: Jesus, was not tolerant of sin. But he loved sinners.

He certainly would not be on here criticizing this lady. The comments on her blog are far worse than what she said. I have not read the other threads on WTM about this but this one is strange.

[twoforjoy]

I've never understood the handwringing about "what on earth would I say to my child, who couldn't possibly understand?!"

 

This. I'm not sure why this seems like something that is difficult for children to understand or that would destroy their innocence. This is not a discussion about sex. It has nothing to do with sex. It's about couples and families.

 

A young child is not going to even think to ask sex questions. My son, who is 7, knows that some people are gay. He knows gay couples. He also knows the mechanics of intercourse. It has not occurred to him to ask me how same-sex couples have sex, and I don't imagine he'll be asking that for a very long time (if he does indeed ask me).

 

I've basically explained it like this: "Most men fall in love with women, and most women fall in love with men, but some men fall in love with other men, and some women fall in love with other women." That's it. And, I don't think he even asked me to explain. We had a lesbian living next door a few years ago. One time her girlfriend brought her flowers, and my son, I guess knowing that flowers are what you give to somebody you love, said, "You love her! You're going to marry her!" He had never heard of homosexuality. He didn't ask about it. He'd never heard of gay marriage, and he didn't ask about it. He didn't think about whether it was right or wrong, any more than he thought about whether my best friend and her boyfriend living together without being married was right or wrong. It was a total non-issue, it raised no alarming questions, and it didn't require sex ed or a moral lesson or anything of the kind. It just was.

 

But, my kids see things that I don't want them doing all the time. We live in a city. I've actually found it much, much harder to explain to my son why I don't give money to everybody who asks me for it (because I know that many of them will spend it on drugs/alcohol/gambling, and I prefer to give food).

[JulieH]

:iagree: Jesus, was not tolerant of sin. But he loved sinners.

He certainly would not be on here criticizing this lady. The comments on her blog are far worse than what she said. I have not read the other threads on WTM about this but this one is strange.

 

:iagree:100 times worse!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I fail to see how homosexual sex is different from heterosexual sex, or how it would fit into the idea that it might hurt people.

 

Hold on, lemme get the puppets out and explain this.....:tongue_smilie:

[twoforjoy]

He certainly would not be on here criticizing this lady. The comments on her blog are far worse than what she said. I have not read the other threads on WTM about this but this one is strange.

 

I hope you can understand why. The amount of pain that Christians have caused the GLBT community is almost unthinkable. It is certainly sinful.

 

This woman wants to deny same-sex couples the right to marry. AFAIK, nobody in the GLBT community is trying to deny her right to worship as she wishes, to marry who she wishes, or to raise her children as she wishes. So, if they are angry, that's why. I'm not saying the comments are right or justified, but the anger is certainly understandable.

 

The woman posting on her blog seems to not really understand what it means to impose your morals on other people, or when/why it's a problem.

 

The same people who say I shouldn't impose my morality on them, are imposing immorality on me and my children to the point that I literally have a hard time even leaving my home anymore to do something as simple as visit the park. And this is freedom?

 

That is just absurd. I mean, honestly, it's hard for me not to start seeing red, because of how ridiculous it is, and how often it's been used to justify hatred and prejudice. I can feel my blood pressure go up reading this, and I'm a straight woman. I can imagine how a GLBT person would feel reading something like that, seeing this woman compare having her children see gay people out in public with being denied the right to marry another consenting adult whom you love.

 

There is a HUGE difference between those two things. I really don't think that could be more obvious. Nobody is imposing morality on this woman. Nobody is telling her that she must teach her children that homosexuality is right. Nobody is forcing her to marry another woman. Nobody is making it illegal for her to make a blog post about how terrible homosexuality is or her priest from teaching that it's a sin. She is perfectly free to live her life according to her moral beliefs, without any impediment at all, and with complete legal support.

 

What she is not free to do is to force other people to live according to those beliefs, as well. She seems to think that being denied the ability to force the rest of the world to live as she thinks they should is somehow forcing alternative moralities upon her.

 

To use an example that I hope might resonate with people, I think that spanking is wrong. Morally wrong. However, spanking is legal. Does that mean that people who spank are forcing their morality upon me? Does that mean that the government is forcing the pro-spanking agenda upon me? Of course not. I am free to live my life as I wish. I don't have to spank my kids. Nobody is imposing their morality on me just because they are allowed to do something that I think is wrong, and even do it right in front of me.

 

If this woman can't recognize that, no wonder people are angry. To somehow claim that, because the park won't ban gay people from going there, gay people are doing something to this woman that is morally equivalent to denying equal rights to gay people is, aside from being incorrect on just about every possible level, deeply offensive.

[twoforjoy]

:iagree:100 times worse!

 

Do you know why? Do you have any idea of the pain that Christians like this woman have caused GLBT people? How many children have been thrown out of their homes because of parents who believed those things? How many people have committed suicide because people like that, who made up their families and communities and entire support system, rejected them? How many people have been horrible abused by their churches because their churches held those beliefs?

 

If you don't understand why there is anger in the comments, I highly suggest that you find some GLBT Christians. Go to a GLBT-welcoming church, just to visit, and talk to some gay people there. They will tell you stories that, if they don't make you furious and make you cry, I don't know what would.

 

That doesn't justify hatred, but it sure makes it MUCH more understandable than the completely and totally irrational, baseless fear and hate this woman was expressing. Sin has consequences. The egregious sins that Christians have committed on the GLBT community has consequences, and that's what you're seeing. Those comments are the wages of sin that Christians have brought upon themselves by the inexcusable, horrific campaign of hate, misinformation, and discrimination that they have waged on GLBT people for decades now. You reap what you sow.

[Parrothead]

I'm not gonna judge Christians with judgmental attitudes. You never know if they were born that way, brought up that way, or they're just hormonal.

 

:D

:lol::lol::lol:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

This. I'm not sure why this seems like something that is difficult for children to understand or that would destroy their innocence. This is not a discussion about sex. It has nothing to do with sex. It's about couples and families.

 

:iagree: Exactly this. I told my dd the same thing, that people don't talk about, wonder about, ask me about or rant in public about what I and my dh do in bed, but make the couple same sex and all people want to focus on is their sex lives!! I told her that gay couples probably have much more in common with us than most anti-gay people realize. Most of our home life consists of boring stuff like cooking, cleaning, taking care of the dog/home/etc. That's what gay people do, too. They buy groceries, they walk the dog, cook food, clean the house.

 

We have more in common than we have differences, imo.

[Parrothead]

Sorry for the hijack.

 

 

Like that commenter, though, I'm actually much more upset when fellow Catholics decide to subject other people's young children to graphic discussion or images relating to abortion. This has happened to us at homeschool groups, with guest speakers at Mass, etc. I know some parents think it's fine for their 3-year-olds to hear about this harsh reality, but not everyone does. To me, disregarding these concerns shows a real lack of respect and prudence, and this is coming from people who are supposed to share our worldview.

I had this one happen too. Dd has friends who have older (like almost 10 year older) siblings. I don't think there a play time that one of these (they are twins) kids doesn't bring up how horrible abortion is. I picked up the twins and their younger brother Friday. We were talking about car seats (the younger brother is 5 and still needs one) and some how or another one girl just launched into how horrible abortion is. It is really weird.

[Ipsey]

:iagree: Exactly this. I told my dd the same thing, that people don't talk about, wonder about, ask me about or rant in public about what I and my dh do in bed, but make the couple same sex and all people want to focus on is their sex lives!! I told her that gay couples probably have much more in common with us than most anti-gay people realize. Most of our home life consists of boring stuff like cooking, cleaning, taking care of the dog/home/etc. That's what gay people do, too. They buy groceries, they walk the dog, cook food, clean the house.

 

We have more in common than we have differences, imo.

 

I do always wonder about "what are we going to tell the children?"

In one of the comments, someone was asking--"How am I supposed to explain sodomy to my children."

 

I thought. . .WHHHATT?

 

Really, when little children look at a married couple holding hands at the park, the little children are thinking---oooh, look at those people who have sex! Or, if they see a pregnant woman, are their little children thinking "Ooooh! They had sex!"

 

I can't understand why we're so wound up about this. Little kids aren't thinking about sex, they see two people who live together and are Mommy and Daddy.

 

Children who see gay couples aren't busily thinking, "How do they have sex, Mommy? What goes where?"

 

My goodness. I wonder about adults who force all of these sexual notions on children.

 

We had a good friend of mine from high school and his partner visit several months ago and spend a couple of nights. Do you know my young children never once asked me if they have sex! I don't really expect my children understand the prevalence of sex, or if that even crossed their minds that my two gay male friends _have_ sex!

 

(They seem shocked to think their father and I have sex! :lol:)

 

Just weird to me.

 

People like this are afraid. Just so afraid.

[Rivka]

Do you know why? Do you have any idea of the pain that Christians like this woman have caused GLBT people? How many children have been thrown out of their homes because of parents who believed those things? How many people have committed suicide because people like that, who made up their families and communities and entire support system, rejected them? How many people have been horrible abused by their churches because their churches held those beliefs?

 

If you don't understand why there is anger in the comments, I highly suggest that you find some GLBT Christians. Go to a GLBT-welcoming church, just to visit, and talk to some gay people there. They will tell you stories that, if they don't make you furious and make you cry, I don't know what would.

 

That doesn't justify hatred, but it sure makes it MUCH more understandable than the completely and totally irrational, baseless fear and hate this woman was expressing. Sin has consequences. The egregious sins that Christians have committed on the GLBT community has consequences, and that's what you're seeing. Those comments are the wages of sin that Christians have brought upon themselves by the inexcusable, horrific campaign of hate, misinformation, and discrimination that they have waged on GLBT people for decades now. You reap what you sow.

 

:iagree: (Except that I wish there was a sad-looking "I agree" icon.)

 

I certainly agree that she shouldn't have gotten the comments she did. They are inappropriate and inexcusable. But given that she was essentially wishing that gay people be erased from the planet, or at least banned from public places solely for the crime of existing, I do understand them.

[Parrothead]

Hold on, lemme get the puppets out and explain this.....:tongue_smilie:

:smilielol5::smilielol5:Oh, my WORD!

[Joanne]

Hold on, lemme get the puppets out and explain this.....:tongue_smilie:

 

:lurk5::coolgleamA:

[Impish]

Hold on, lemme get the puppets out and explain this.....:tongue_smilie:

*choking*

:lol:

[momma2three]

I hope you can understand why. The amount of pain that Christians have caused the GLBT community is almost unthinkable. It is certainly sinful.

 

This woman wants to deny same-sex couples the right to marry. AFAIK, nobody in the GLBT community is trying to deny her right to worship as she wishes, to marry who she wishes, or to raise her children as she wishes. So, if they are angry, that's why. I'm not saying the comments are right or justified, but the anger is certainly understandable.

 

The woman posting on her blog seems to not really understand what it means to impose your morals on other people, or when/why it's a problem.

 

She wants to deny same sex couples the right to LEAVE THE HOUSE.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:lurk5::coolgleamA:

 

Yes, the IMPORTANT question here is not, "Whatever shall we tell the children?" but "however shall Cyndi explain it to Joanne using only puppets and an internet bulletin board?" ;)

[Ipsey]

Yes, the IMPORTANT question here is not, "Whatever shall we tell the children?" but "however shall Cyndi explain it to Joanne using only puppets and an internet bulletin board?" ;)

 

How can I get closer to the screen?

 

:001_smile:

[KristinaBreece]

She wants to deny same sex couples the right to LEAVE THE HOUSE.

 

That's what put her over the top for me.

 

Paraphrase: "This is MY community. MY park. WE pay taxes and contribute to society. Blah-blah-blah."

 

Really? Because I'm fairly certain it's also everyone else's community, park, WHATEVER. I'm also fairly certain that she (or her DH, whatever) isn't the only person paying taxes and contributing to society. :glare:

 

I don't want to have to explain to my children that there are still people in this world who are so afraid of the way other people live that it turns into that kind of hatred. Soooo.... Yeah.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

That's what put her over the top for me.

 

Paraphrase: "This is MY community. MY park. WE pay taxes and contribute to society. Blah-blah-blah."

 

Really? Because I'm fairly certain it's also everyone else's community, park, WHATEVER. I'm also fairly certain that she (or her DH, whatever) isn't the only person paying taxes and contributing to society. :glare:

 

I don't want to have to explain to my children that there are still people in this world who are so afraid of the way other people live that it turns into that kind of hatred. Soooo.... Yeah.

 

 

:iagree: Yes, this. All kidding aside, THIS is the sort of thing that I struggle to share with my children. I want to balance their innocence with the eventual need to know about what sorts of attitudes are out there.

[Impish]

Yes, the IMPORTANT question here is not, "Whatever shall we tell the children?" but "however shall Cyndi explain it to Joanne using only puppets and an internet bulletin board?" ;)

Web cam and youtube.

 

*waits for the link*

[KristinaBreece]

Web cam and youtube.

 

*waits for the link*

 

*snort*:lol:

[Parrothead]

Web cam and youtube.

 

*waits for the link*

:lurk5:

[momma2three]

Web cam and youtube.

 

*waits for the link*

 

I'm always so inspired by the dedication that forum members here show when it comes to educating and inspiring others. (wipes tear away)

[Rivka]

I didn't make it through the whole conversion story, but did read enough to see that the author has had a lifelong struggle with severe anxiety and other mental health problems, to the point of being hospitalized, self-harming, and spending years in therapy. It gave me a different perspective on some of the language in the post:

 

"I was again anxiously watching my children"

"I've developed this ever-present jumpiness"

"I find myself unable to even leave the house anymore without worrying"

"knowing this... makes me afraid to leave the house"

 

:(

 

...Oh boy. Yeah, I've read the conversion story too now, and I think you've made a good call. I encountered something like this once before - the blog of a Christian homeschooler who testified that Jesus had saved her from a lifetime of crippling mental illness. It was pretty clear from reading her blog that her conversion simply gave her license to call obsessions, anxiety, and self-hatred "holiness." (No, I'm not saying that Christians are crazy. But she was.)

 

Okay. At least that helps me genuinely pity her.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm always so inspired by the dedication that forum members here show when it comes to educating and inspiring others. (wipes tear away)

 

 

Awww, shucks. I do what I can. :001_smile:

 

Except when it comes to Youtube videos. :001_huh:

[kiana]

She wants to deny same sex couples the right to LEAVE THE HOUSE.

 

No, no, it's okay to leave the house, as long as the men wear appropriately masculine clothing, the females appropriately feminine clothing, and they refrain from talking to each other, touching each other, or especially making EYE CONTACT. HOW COULD THEY BE SO LEWD?!

[kiana]

That's what put her over the top for me.

 

Paraphrase: "This is MY community. MY park. WE pay taxes and contribute to society. Blah-blah-blah."

 

Really? Because I'm fairly certain it's also everyone else's community, park, WHATEVER. I'm also fairly certain that she (or her DH, whatever) isn't the only person paying taxes and contributing to society. :glare:

 

I don't want to have to explain to my children that there are still people in this world who are so afraid of the way other people live that it turns into that kind of hatred. Soooo.... Yeah.

 

You didn't get the memo about how the GLBT community is tax-exempt now?

[KristinaBreece]

You didn't get the memo about how the GLBT community is tax-exempt now?

 

I totally missed it. But I should have guessed. That was the ultimate goal of the liberal humanist agenda, after all. Duh.

[momma2three]

You didn't get the memo about how the GLBT community is tax-exempt now?

 

That's part of their giant international conspiracy, isn't it. :glare:

[elegantlion]

No, no, it's okay to leave the house, as long as the men wear appropriately masculine clothing, the females appropriately feminine clothing, and they refrain from talking to each other, touching each other, or especially making EYE CONTACT. HOW COULD THEY BE SO LEWD?!

 

I suppose bikinis would be out of the question too. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do pity her. She is setting morality at outward appearances. I believe Jesus looks into the heart. A predatory sex offender could be sitting in the same park thinking horrid thoughts about her child yet appear harmless.

[kiana]

I suppose bikinis would be out of the question too. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do pity her. She is setting morality at outward appearances. I believe Jesus looks into the heart. A predatory sex offender could be sitting in the same park thinking horrid thoughts about her child yet appear harmless.

 

Yes.

 

And there are some lovely young people at our church with loads of piercings and tattoos who spend all their time volunteering for habitat for humanity, the domestic violence shelter, etc.

 

(don't tell her, but some of them are GAY)

[IsabelC]

I feel somewhat sorry for this woman too, but it still makes me feel ill that she is raising children to be full of twisted judgment and hatred for those hapless people who are not clones of her and who dare to smile or rub each others' backs in her presence.

[Aelwydd]

Yes, the IMPORTANT question here is not, "Whatever shall we tell the children?" but "however shall Cyndi explain it to Joanne using only puppets and an internet bulletin board?" ;)

 

And the question that is burning in my bosom now is, "Do Cyndi's puppets actually have the right...er...equipment for this objective lesson?"

 

:::intrigued:::

[Aelwydd]

. I think the next comment you made comes across as judgemental and well, possibly even hateful and intolerant of those who disagree with you. You don't understand.[/Quote]

 

The next comment I made was that I don't believe it is within the purview of Christianity to act or speak hatefully towards others. You believe that is a hateful and judgmental attitude?

 

Also, I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, who started memorizing verses at age 3, baptized at age 5, and reading the entire Bible at age 12. To my regret, I used to hold beliefs and attitudes similar to this woman's, because that is how I was raised. How can you state so unequivocally that I don't understand?

 

Yes, some people do not express their opinions well. I may not have expressed mine well. That doesn't mean that I am hateful or intolerant of homosexuals. I hold them to the same standards that I hold heterosexuals. Pointing out the sexual sins of heterosexuals offends far more people.

 

Ok. But, if I were to substitute other classes of people for what she said, like for example, "I can't leave my house, because there might be black people in the park! Worse, they might be holding hands, and showing affection. How would I ever explain to my son the base passions and lusts of these people if he asked??"

 

--If I were to say that, some folks might say that's just me poorly expressing my opinion. However, I expect that the majority would probably say that no amount of euphemistic phrasing could erase the raw feeling behind the words.

 

Similarly, there didn't seem to be much leeway in how to take that woman's blog post. I got a very clear impression of fear and contempt in her words. It's vaguely possible that the emotion she is expressing there is something other than hate, but honestly, I couldn't detect anything remotely akin to compassion or charity towards gay people in her tone.

[Aelwydd]

No, I think Aelwydd's post was good and there was nothing hateful about it.

 

The point is that you don't have the "right" to engage in whatever sexual activities you happen to desire because you've chosen a particular Christian path in life. Chucki doesn't have that choice and others who've posted in this and the other thread don't have that choice because they've chosen a path that clearly states certain behaviours are not acceptable. But the boundaries of that choice end right at the tip of your toes.

 

Beyond that, it's the rules of the secular states we live in. Beyond that, those of us who've chosen a Christian path are specifically told not to judge and further, to reach out and embrace those who we might call sinners. We are not told to go home and post a rant about how our day was ruined by other people just going about there normal and mundane lives in our presence.

 

I think what Aelwydd understands is that you're bound to certain beliefs because you've chosen to take a certain Christian path. She understands why you believe as you explained. What's being understood though is why that belief doesn't translate into compassion and outreach rather then the blogger's rant. Why is that woman not extending a hand to those couples she saw and offering grace? Afterall, Christianity revolves around that sort of outreach and compassion NOT a fixation on what gay people might be doing within our view.

 

Aelwydd is NOT asking that you or anyone else accept that homosexualtiy is not a sin. She's simply asking why our response to that "sin" (and I use quotes for my saek because I don't agree that it is) is not more...Christian.

 

Wishbone, per usual, I heart you.

 

(But not with doe eyes--there might be children around.)

[Aelwydd]

Jesus didn't "gravitate" towards the sinners. He sought them out and loved on them...but He led them to repent of their sin, not to dwell in it and embrace it.

 

Ok, well now I'm confused. I have always imagined Earth, from heaven's perspective, as nothing so much as a huge dark pit of lost and angry souls.

 

And I pictured Christ's descent to humanity as nothing so much as God running headlong into humanity, to save us from our misery.

 

That is what I mean by Christ gravitating towards sinners. He has always pursued us, like the lost sheep that got separated from the 99.

[Aelwydd]

You didn't get the memo about how the GLBT community is tax-exempt now?

 

It's worse than that. They get to drive in the HOV lanes with fewer passengers than straight people do.

[Ipsey]

Yes, the IMPORTANT question here is not, "Whatever shall we tell the children?" but "however shall Cyndi explain it to Joanne using only puppets and an internet bulletin board?" ;)

 

Not to hijack completely, but. . . this thread made me think about the sex education dolls story that I had read on Salon.

 

They're from all over the world to teach littles about basic anatomy, sex, and even *horror* childbirth.

 

http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/09/07/sex_ed

 

This link takes you to the story, but you can see pictures of the soft and fuzzy dolls in the slide show.

 

Anyway, I couldn't help thinking of these.

[Mrs Mungo]

Ok, well now I'm confused. I have always imagined Earth, from heaven's perspective, as nothing so much as a huge dark pit of lost and angry souls.

 

And I pictured Christ's descent to humanity as nothing so much as God running headlong into humanity, to save us from our misery.

 

That is what I mean by Christ gravitating towards sinners. He has always pursued us, like the lost sheep that got separated from the 99.

 

"In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost."

 

Matthew 25 is full of warnings and instructions for Christians. The warnings are just as dire for some Christians as they are for non-Christians. Which, I do interpret as a fruits thing, not a works thing.

[Julie Smith]

Not to hijack completely, but. . . this thread made me think about the sex education dolls story that I had read on Salon.

 

They're from all over the world to teach littles about basic anatomy, sex, and even *horror* childbirth.

 

http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/09/07/sex_ed

 

This link takes you to the story, but you can see pictures of the soft and fuzzy dolls in the slide show.

 

Anyway, I couldn't help thinking of these.

 

Okay, those do look good. And I never thought about teaching sex Ed to the blind.

[merry gardens]

The next comment I made was that I don't believe it is within the purview of Christianity to act or speak hatefully towards others. You believe that is a hateful and judgmental attitude?

 

Also, I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, who started memorizing verses at age 3, baptized at age 5, and reading the entire Bible at age 12. To my regret, I used to hold beliefs and attitudes similar to this woman's, because that is how I was raised. How can you state so unequivocally that I don't understand? ...I got a very clear impression of fear and contempt in her words. It's vaguely possible that the emotion she is expressing there is something other than hate, but honestly, I couldn't detect anything remotely akin to compassion or charity towards gay people in her tone.

While we await Cyndi's puppet show, dare I try to respond to Aelwydd's question? (And a special thank you to Cyndi for providing touch of humor in a thread about a touchy subject. :D)

 

It seemed to me that you were judging the hearts of those who openly expressed their views that homosexuality is wrong. You said you understood that they were trying to "deny the same rights and civil liberties" to their fellow human beings--and I find that a less-than-admirable way of viewing many Christians' objection to homosexuality. I won't try to speak for the woman whose posts and blog comments prompted this thread. I don't know her, and I had not even read her posts before responding. But it seems to me that some of the things people have written about her appear unloving and judgemental. People often respond in hateful, judgmental ways when Christians express their views on sexual morality.

 

I know some very loving Christians who regard various sexuals acts as sinful, including, but not limited to, homosexual acts. Let's not debate here about what particular sexual acts are sinful. Can we just agree at some point, sexual acts can cross a line between right and wrong?

 

Can we also set aside the discussion of sexual sin and simply talk about sin in a generic sense? I believe that sin--all sin--hurts people, including the person who commits it. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I have great compassion for my fellow sinners.

 

It is really hard to relay compassion for the sinner when discussing sexual matters. People tend to get very defensive. People seem to want to immediately deny that they have committed a sin--not by denying that they committed the act, but by denying that what they did is a sin. Christians who dare to speak out are often judged. Many Christians have become afraid to speak out for fear of being called "hateful". I'm somewhat afraid of responding here. That fear may leave only those to speak out who are the least afraid of offending others or who are otherwise unable to adequately express themselves. Then.. those who dare to say something may come across as judgemental and hateful, instead of compassionate and loving. Then... they get judged.

Edited September 15, 2011 by merry gardens

[Mrs Mungo]

It seemed to me that you were judging the hearts of those who openly expressed their views that homosexuality is wrong. You said you understood that they were trying to "deny the same rights and civil liberties" to their fellow human beings--and I find that a less-than-admirable way of viewing many Christians' objection to homosexuality. It assumes the worst motives and intentions. I won't try to speak for the woman whose posts and blog comments prompted this thread. I don't know her, and I had not even read her posts before responding.

 

I think A was specifically talking about those who speak like the woman in the blog. You admit you haven't even read the blog in question, and are only *assuming* what it says. It is a good idea to read what is being disussed before responding. The woman in the blog was pretty specific, and does seem to believe that gay people should not be allowed in public.

[Momto3indians]

I still feel that the focus needs to be on Jesus and not a 'church' ....Christianity is not a religion...it's all a relationship and abiding by His Word. I hate 'haters,' too....that is not what Jesus would do. He would love them into the kingdom. He is long suffering...but He also can't be in the presence of sin. I don't know...if this post is just to state that it is wrong to reject others/haters, than I agree...but I think that has gotten muddy with 'accept/tolerate/welcome into the fold' and that is not scriptural. Anyone is welcome and should be, for the church is really a hospital. But for the church to 'accept' for the sake of 'fitting into society' that has gone over a moral line that was first drawn in the Word of God, then we have a problem here....(just so you know...I would love those 'gay neighbors', too....and hope that my witness would lead them to the cross over time) Blessings...

[emubird]

It seemed to me that you were judging the hearts of those who openly expressed their views that homosexuality is wrong. You said you understood that they were trying to "deny the same rights and civil liberties" to their fellow human beings--and I find that a less-than-admirable way of viewing many Christians' objection to homosexuality.

 

So it's not ok to be intolerant of intolerance?

 

A lot of my gay neighbors go to church. They've found Jesus. Now what?

 

The Bible does not explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin. That's an interpretation of a few passages in the Bible that could easily be interpreted in some other way.

 

That's the interesting thing about the Bible. You can make it mean almost whatever you want.

Edited September 15, 2011 by emubird

[twoforjoy]

It is really hard to relay compassion for the sinner when discussing sexual matters. People tend to get very defensive. People seem to want to immediately deny that they have committed a sin--not by denying that they committed the act, but by denying that what they did is a sin. Christians who dare to speak out are often judged. Many Christians have become afraid to speak out for fear of being called "hateful". I'm somewhat afraid of responding here. That fear may leave only those to speak out who are the least afraid of offending others or who are otherwise unable to adequately express themselves. Then.. those who dare to say something may come across as judgemental and hateful, instead of compassionate and loving. Then... they get judged.

 

I appreciate where your heart is on this, but I don't think I agree.

 

I don't think people are uniquely defensive about "sexual sin." In the United States, I'd actually say that we are far more defensive about other sins, like greed. I don't know many people who are willing to admit that their big home and/or 2-3 cars and/or many clothes and/or stockpile of food and/or huge savings account aren't necessary items or means of being responsible, but evidence of greed. I know I'm loathe to admit that myself. I am so, so willing to write off my selfishness and greed as being about providing for my family or meeting needs, and most people--especially most American Christians--are not only willing to accept that, but actually applaud me for it.

 

So I think that we are, especially as Americans, far more quick to justify our gossip or greed or gluttony or whatever other "minor" sin we're committing as acceptable or even as commendable, than we are to justify sexual sin.

 

The only "sexual sin" I see Christians coming out in droves to support is homosexuality. And, most of the Christians supporting it are people who are straight, so it's not that they are trying to justify their own behavior. That's just not what this is about. Many, like me, I imagine, would be willing to admit that they have sinned sexually in the past--I have, by having premarital sex--but still don't see homosexuality as inherently sinful. It's not that I think "anything goes" sexually, and I don't know any Christians who think it does. It's that I think this one particular thing that's been labelled sinful isn't always sinful. Yes, gay people can sin sexually. I'm sure many do, just like many straight people do. But, I don't think that sex between two same-sex partners in a relationship of life-long commitment is sin. And, more importantly, I don't think that being gay is a sin.

 

The thing is, though, I think pro-gay and anti-gay Christians are coming from two different perspectives. For anti-gay Christians, the issue is sex: it's about acts/desires and whether they are right or wrong. Honestly, when I think about homosexuality, I don't think about sex. I think about justice. To me, and to most pro-gay Christians I know, it's about justice, not sex. I'm not thinking "Oh, these actions and desires are all perfectly morally acceptable." I'm sure they aren't. I'm sure gay people sin sexually just as much as straight people do, which is a lot. But I'm not thinking of that. I'm thinking, "Oh, these people were made in God's image, and they deserve to be treated with love and respect, and they deserve justice." The morality of what they are doing in bed isn't something that I think about, any more than I think about the morality of what any straight couple I know is doing in bed.

[Scarlett]

So it's not ok to be intolerant of intolerance?

 

A lot of my gay neighbors go to church. They've found Jesus. Now what?

 

The Bible does not explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin. That's an interpretation of a few passages in the Bible that could easily be interpreted in some other way.

 

That's the interesting thing about the Bible. You can make it mean almost whatever you want.

 

So are you saying that some people want the Bible to condemn homosexuality and some people don't?

 

The trouble is that on such an issue one way is right and one way is wrong. Either the practice of homosexuality is displeasing to God or it is not. That is why these threads always get so out of control with not much being accomplished in the end..because I am never going to see the Bible condoning the practice homosexuality.

 

Now as far as haters go...I don't think I am one....however it seems as if many would label me that way simply because I believe the practice of homosexuality to be a sin.