Definition of Poverty

[elegantlion]

I'll interject my comments:

 

the "poor" are no longer just the stereotypical single mother, divorced father family living in the bad neighborhood, taking the bus to their part-time, if any, job, spending their money on booze and cigarettes.

 

When you (rhetorical you) say the "poor" are you addressing the cycle of generational poverty that some people experience, or are you addressing the "poor" by today's standards? The paradigm has shifted.

 

I know many people who once (long ago or not so long ago) were NOT poor, they had good job, they have "stuff" (define that where ever you start get offended by a person on assistance owning). This current economy has created a lot of "poor" people on paper. The Middle class (of which we used to be a part of) is dwindling. People who have worked hard all of their lives are now on some form of assistance. They know how to work, they don't need a mentor, they need a job. They need full time employment and because of whatever, it's not out there for them. Not everyone can say Well I guess it's time to run out and get that job now. Bye, hon, I'll be back in a hour. The rules of the game have changed. Many people have gotten caught in the crossfire and are doing everything they possibly can to not lose their sanity (and I don't throw that term around lightly) to keep their family afloat. The government assistance is like a life preserver, it doesn't get them out of the storm, but it might keep them from drowning in the process of finding shore.

[deacongirl]

Re: class warfare:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/opinion/07kristof.html

"...In short, inequality leaves people on the lower rungs feeling like hamsters on a wheel spinning ever faster, without hope or escape.

Economic polarization also shatters our sense of national union and common purpose, fostering political polarization as well.

So, ...let’s not aggravate income gaps that already would make a Latin American caudillo proud. To me, we’ve reached a banana republic point where our inequality has become both economically unhealthy and morally repugnant.

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/opinion/18kristof.html?ref=nicholasdkristof

"But there is also a larger question: What kind of a country do we aspire to be? Would we really want to be the kind of plutocracy where the richest 1 percent possesses more net worth than the bottom 90 percent?"

 

 

Income inequality in the US is greater than in Egypt:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2011/jan/31/egypt-usa

 

Why we can't ignore growing income inequality:

http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/with-executive-pay-rich-pull-away-from-rest-of-america/2011/06/13/AGKG9jaH_story.html

 

"For years, statistics have depicted growing income disparity in the United States, and it has reached levels not seen since the Great Depression. In 2008, the last year for which data are available, for example, the top 0.1 percent of earners took in more than 10 percent of the personal income in the United States, including capital gains, and the top 1 percent took in more than 20 percent."

[leeannpal]

Thank you--I meant to bring that up in my post. Just an FYI--this perfume that was "wasted" on Jesus was not a $200 bottle from the perfume counter at Macy's, it was worth 2/3 of a year's wages.

Actually, it was worth a whole years's wage. However, I think you are taking the meaning of this verse out of context. Jesus was simply stating a fact-there will always be poor people. At that moment in time, the use of teh perfume by Mary to "anoint" Jesus for his coming burial was more important. I don't think that implies that Jesus didn't care for the poor. He certainly showed in many ways that He did.

 

There are many reasons for poverty, and to try an boil it down to a few trite reasons is so unfair. The argument that people work the system, therefore, we shouldn't have the system, is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. The people who abuse the system will have to contend with their own conscience. But, in a country where Christians are supposed to be helping the orphans and widows, and that is not happening in many places, I'm thankful that those who need help to survive can get it.

 

The days of "The American Dream" and large middle class in America are probaly over. We are all going to have to learn to live with less.

[Tmhearn]

They know how to work, they don't need a mentor, they need a job. They need full time employment and because of whatever, it's not out there for them. Not everyone can say Well I guess it's time to run out and get that job now.

 

To this, I would say that it is no one's responsibility to give anyone a job. It is a person's responsibility to acquire marketable skills. So, if your skills are no longer in demand, it is time to aquire new ones.

[Karis]

Act

The days of "The American Dream" and large middle class in America are probably over. We are all going to have to learn to live with less.

 

 

This is why it annoys me that some can and will take their food subsidies and use them to pay for a meal at a restaurant (and no, I do not mean "All you can eat" type places.)

 

If that is what one chooses, at least have the decency to withdraw the money off of the card as cash and use the cash for whatever!!

 

Anyone (normal, sane person) working two jobs - (moonlighting as a waitress), scrimping and saving and going without who witnesses this happening is obviously going to be ticked off. (just a little)

 

Anyone who has waited to get gov. help does so as a last resort. I know it can't be easy. It wasn't for us when we needed to. But there has to be something in us (collective) that fights against staying in that place.

 

(Pride?)

 

We need to be strong enough to make the tough choices.

 

We'll be better for it.

[Harriet Vane]

To this, I would say that it is no one's responsibility to give anyone a job. It is a person's responsibility to acquire marketable skills. So, if your skills are no longer in demand, it is time to aquire new ones.

 

Haven't read the whole thread, but had to jump in:

 

Easier said than done.

 

Also there are lots of people who have very marketable skills but have not been able to get a job. It's a sad fact. For example, my dh has more than one friend who are fully qualified actuaries who worked for many years with competence as actuaries who are having a hard time finding work. Do you know how hard it is to become fully qualified as an actuary?? The average to pass all the exams is 12-15 years. The exam process is terribly difficult. A fully qualified actuary is a rare thing, and he/she should have no issues getting a job somewhere. They cannot be hired in non-actuarial positions because they are so very, very overqualified, and are having a hard time getting even basic actuarial positions.

 

These are men we know--they are competent and eminently qualified to do a job not many are able to do, jobs that ARE still necessary wherever there is insurance or finance, and are having terrible difficulties getting a job. Would you tell them to retrain? With what money? How will they support their families in the time it takes to retrain? What about the fact that the longer they are without work, the less hire-able they are because potential employers start making assumptions about their competence BECAUSE they are out of work?

[ciyates]

It always amazes me how people who are not poor or have never been poor know exactly how to fix the issue.

 

We grew up poor. Holes in the floor where you can see the dirt underneath, no hot water, only hot meal we ate were at school poor. Both my parents worked. There was not any government assistance. We went without meals, were cold in the winter and the idea of air condition was laughable. Keep in mind I grew up in South Mississippi. Its hots. Both me and my sister learned the value of hard work. We walked along the beach and dug through trash cans to collect aluminum cans to sale for scrap to buy our school clothes. We learned to have marketable skills. An education does not mean you can contribute to the workforce. We would have loved to gone to college for the shear joy of learning but we took classes that would actually benefit us. We didn't have mentors, we had hungry bellies and a tough life.

 

We have come to a mindset that it is someone else's job to provide for you. This country believes no one should suffer. That isn't true. I know what it is like to be on both sides of the fences. I know what it is like to have money in the bank and what it is like to miss meals. Missing those meals growing up is what prevented me and my husband from buying the 200,000 house even though we could afford the payments, it is what has prevented us from running out and buying a new car when the government rolled out another welfare program.

 

Americans have to stop blaming everyone else for being in the position they are in and change. If you can't get a job with your skill set get a new skill set. It really is as simple as that. If you can't find a job in your area move. If you have children it is your responsibility to be able to feed them.

 

Charity is alive and well in this country. I work in a soup kitchen once a week and I see healthy young men with more gold than I have ever owned walk in and eat. I also see illegal immigrant women in with their children. I feed them both and give them the same respect. The people who want to get out of these situations do. I see it everyday. Our church mission works with desperately poor everyday. We buy buildings that are foreclosed on for a few thousand dollars and move those people into them. We help them find jobs. You can see the difference in the attitudes of those who want to change and those who have given in and decided it is alot easier to be on welfare.

 

 

This is a very sensitive issue for me. I have a heart for the poor because that is how I grew up. I know that several people will bash what I said and that is fine. If you want to respond to me specifically send me a private message. I will not be checking the thread again.

[WishboneDawn]

This thread bothers me. We have many posters here who are in pretty hard and sometimes desperate circumstances, some I would definitely say are poor. We listen to their stories, feel for them, offer advice and aid.

 

But once the subject becomes The Poor rather then those we know who are poor there a are a lot of comments about how The Poor just need to work harder, save more, budget better. All our experience with the folks who are poor here goes out the window. We forget that they are with us here on this very board. And that sometimes, we ARE them.

 

My family isn't poor any more but we spent years in that territory. It's isolating enough not having money, it's worse when you're forgotten by those who know you and a circumstance of your life is discussed as if it's a circumstance that only affects the lazy or unworthy.

[SKL]

There are so many pretty explanations for poverty and why the poor are powerless and why the rich are evil and so on. This has been a fine art for centuries and yet, not one person has been pulled out of poverty by these pretty words. People get out of poverty by making a choice to go after something better.

 

Yes, I know that times are tough all around right now (that would go for people at all income levels). But be honest. How many of those individuals who became "poor" as a result of a recent unexpected event had set themselves up for it by living beyond their means? For the last couple of decades, "I deserve it" (whether I can afford it now or not) has been the attitude of too many Americans at all income levels. (I recall the poster here who was offended because apparently I don't think people "deserve luxuries" on other people's dime.)

 

I don't live in some gated community where I never come in contact with people who struggle financially. But for those I know personally, I could sit here and list exactly what they could and should have done differently that would have made these tough times more manageable. How about not buying big toys on credit? How about not cutting your work hours so you could spend more time on online games? Don't you think it's time to cut the umbilical cord now that your kid is over 30? Did you really need to take a trip to Disney World? Or get another piercing? (I'm talking about my own loved ones here, not anyone on this board.) I have a relative who actually told me she intentionally got pregnant out of wedlock - for the fourth time - because the unemployed man she was shacking up with didn't have a child of his own, and he "deserved" that. Many of the people I personally know who are in financial difficulties have smoked away thousands of dollars, and at least some have been drug users. Now in great economic times, most of these folks would be just fine. But living beyond one's means (including buying electronics one does not need, as was the original point of this thread) is just asking for trouble. Rather than blame that trouble on so-called "rich people," let's stop excusing/encouraging these self-destructive lifestyles.

 

Although I was born poor, I'm now one of those high taxpayers some of you love to hate. As a co-owner of a small business (which has re-invested its earnings to revitalize and create jobs in low-income communities), last year I paid more tax than the cash I received. I had to dip into my savings to pay for 100% of my family's living expenses plus part of my taxes. Yet, I'm told that isn't enough. I'm a single mother and I'll be nearly 60 when my daughters go to college. They need an education fund. I lived frugally all my life in order to save after-tax earning. Now some of you want to take that from me. Because obviously, the fact that I worked 80-hour weeks for decades is the reason the poor are poor. BTW, my kids do not watch TV. We share a single fridge and nuker with two other families. Our home consists of one-third of a modest house. I don't buy junk food. I have one car with over 100K miles on it. If my family "overconsumes," then so do most people on public assistance. I am not the devil just because I believe taxing me more is not going to solve any problems.

Edited August 27, 2011 by SKL

[elegantlion]

To this, I would say that it is no one's responsibility to give anyone a job. It is a person's responsibility to acquire marketable skills. So, if your skills are no longer in demand, it is time to aquire new ones.

 

No it isn't. You do realize that even many people with expertise in their area of industry still can't find jobs even though the industry itself is thriving?

 

Even if one does acquire a new skill set (which also takes time and money) there is no guarantee that they will be hired into the industry. Do some research. How many 40+ year old people do you know that go back to school to acquire a minimum of an AA or certification and can easily walk into that (whatever that is) industry?

[elegantlion]

 

Yes, I know that times are tough all around right now (that would go for people at all income levels). But be honest. How many of those individuals who became "poor" as a result of a recent unexpected event had set themselves up for it by living beyond their means? For the last couple of decades, "I deserve it" (whether I can afford it now or not) has been the attitude of too many Americans at all income levels. (I recall the poster here who was offended because apparently I don't think people "deserve luxuries" on other people's dime.)

 

 

 

And how many didn't?

[WishboneDawn]

There are so many pretty explanations for poverty and why the poor are powerless and why the rich are evil and so on.

 

I don't think one argument automatically leads to the other. I've been poor. I am now wealthy. My evilness meter hasn't gone up any. All through my life I've know people who ranged from very poor to downright rich. Most have been good people.

 

ETA: I should qualify wealthy. We went up several tax brackets and now make quite a bit over the average income. We still have some debt though and still can't go drop $500 on a TV or something. But when you own a big house, a newer car, some acreage and have some discretionary income I think wealthy isn't a bad term.

Edited August 27, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[SKL]

And how many didn't?

 

Surely some. BUT if our system were based upon a mindset of focusing on people whose difficulties are truly beyond their control, there would be enough resources to help them, without borrowing from China and our grandkids.

 

Is your argument that there are "some" people who didn't screw up and therefore we must act as if the other people's poor choices don't matter?

[weaver_67579]

No it isn't. You do realize that even many people with expertise in their area of industry still can't find jobs even though the industry itself is thriving?

 

Even if one does acquire a new skill set (which also takes time and money) there is no guarantee that they will be hired into the industry. Do some research. How many 40+ year old people do you know that go back to school to acquire a minimum of an AA or certification and can easily walk into that (whatever that is) industry?

 

I think it is the individual. Does that mean things suck-yep. Does it mean you may have to make hard choices-yep. Does it mean the whole family may have to have some lifestyle adjustments, or move-yep. Does it mean you may have to work a job you hate or that is below your former-yep. That is life sometimes. I am in no way minimizing these problems or the difficulty of doing any of the above. I am saying we all need to take personal responsiblity for our circumstances and if need be suck it up and take care of business-no matter how hard or unsavory that may be. We are currently what would be considered fairly well-off for our area. We also choose to be debt free-except the farm and live within our means-and are working to live below them. However, both DH and I were poor growing up-him rather poor. Both of us have worked hard physically at low level jobs-can you say shovel manure?. Been there done that. Both of us are not to proud to do so again if need be. Nobody is responsible for "you" other than "you" As the saying goes "When the going gets tough-the tough get going" and maybe we need a bit more of that now and days

[Tmhearn]

These are men we know--they are competent and eminently qualified to do a job not many are able to do, jobs that ARE still necessary wherever there is insurance or finance, and are having terrible difficulties getting a job.

 

If the jobs are necessary, then the positions will be available. If the jobs are no longer necessary (because of technological advancements, for example) then they will not be available. Yes, it is frustrating to spend time and money training for a skill that is no longer in need. However, it is not your neighbor's job (i.e. taxes) to pay you for that skill just because you acquired it. If you want to feed your family, you have to acquire a new skill.

 

In my opinion, that is the fundamental point of this entire thread. People (especially in a slow economy) must put aside wants for needs. People must put aside the "want" of sending their kid to afterschool classes to instead use that money for their own retraining. People must put aside their "want" for a vacation to instead pay for their own retirement.

 

Government assistance has become like paying with a credit card. No one really "sees" where the money comes from, so it is easy to just pay with it.

 

Taryn

[Rosy]

Actually, it was worth a whole years's wage. However, I think you are taking the meaning of this verse out of context. Jesus was simply stating a fact-there will always be poor people. At that moment in time, the use of teh perfume by Mary to "anoint" Jesus for his coming burial was more important. I don't think that implies that Jesus didn't care for the poor. He certainly showed in many ways that He did.

There are many reasons for poverty, and to try an boil it down to a few trite reasons is so unfair. The argument that people work the system, therefore, we shouldn't have the system, is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. The people who abuse the system will have to contend with their own conscience. But, in a country where Christians are supposed to be helping the orphans and widows, and that is not happening in many places, I'm thankful that those who need help to survive can get it.

 

The days of "The American Dream" and large middle class in America are probaly over. We are all going to have to learn to live with less.

I didn't at all mean that Jesus doesn't care for the poor. One can certainly see throughout both the Old and New Testaments that God cares for the poor and oppressed and that He expects Christians to do so. I was only responding to the notion (which I had apparently mistaken another poster to have said) that failing to support government programs is anti-Christian.

 

It may salve our guilt to reassure ourselves that the poor in the US have it better than the poor in many other countries, but it does not exonerate us for turning our backs on them. There is nothing moral or Christian about excusing indifference.

I completely agree with this. But I do think different people have different ideas of what will help. My concern is when people consider it anti-Christian to reject certain policies. Most of the Christians I know have compassion for the poor and try to help individuals and give to charities. Edited August 27, 2011 by Rosy

[elegantlion]

Surely some. BUT if our system were based upon a mindset of focusing on people whose difficulties are truly beyond their control, there would be enough resources to help them, without borrowing from China and our grandkids.

 

Is your argument that there are "some" people who didn't screw up and therefore we must act as if the other people's poor choices don't matter?

 

No, but all people who are currently living in poverty are not there by poor choices. Not all people in poverty are haters of the wealthy either.

 

I think it is the individual. Does that mean things suck-yep. Does it mean you may have to make hard choices-yep. Does it mean the whole family may have to have some lifestyle adjustments, or move-yep. Does it mean you may have to work a job you hate or that is below your former-yep. That is life sometimes. I am in no way minimizing these problems or the difficulty of doing any of the above. I am saying we all need to take personal responsiblity for our circumstances and if need be suck it up and take care of business-no matter how hard or unsavory that may be. We are currently what would be considered fairly well-off for our area. We also choose to be debt free-except the farm and live within our means-and are working to live below them. However, both DH and I were poor growing up-him rather poor. Both of us have worked hard physically at low level jobs-can you say shovel manure?. Been there done that. Both of us are not to proud to do so again if need be. Nobody is responsible for "you" other than "you" As the saying goes "When the going gets tough-the tough get going" and maybe we need a bit more of that now and days

 

Yes, true, and many people have done those things. Many people are taking "personal responsibility" and still need a little assistance to help them as they establish themselves in new areas, or new states.

 

Poverty is a not a broad brush topic and unfortunately many of the these conversations tend to bring out sweeping generalizations of the Poor or the Rich. Some situations require a extra fine point Sharpie, not a paint roller. There but for the grace of God, and all that. :D

[Clear Creek]

I guess the term "poor" must be relative. I lived by the U.S.'s standard of poor for many years. After traveling to one of the world's poorest countries, I can honestly say that I have never truly been poor. A truly poor person will not worry about whether or not to pay the car insurance bill because they do not have a car! A truly poor person will not have an ipod because that would mean they not only have a computer, but they have electricity to power both of those items!!! A truly poor person does not worry about paying the AC/heating bill because again, that would mean that they had electricity, and that they lived in an enclosed house! A truly poor person does not have a refrigerator because there is nowhere to plug it in, and nothing to put in it...it is a struggle to find enough food to eat each day!

 

Many people in the U.S. live below the poverty line, but many of them are not truly poor. They may struggle to maintain a relatively high standard of living, but compared to millions of people they are not poor. If you live in a house that is relatively airtight (i.e. drywall, glass windows, a door that closes and latches, and a real roof), if you have electricity, if you have clean water, if you have a real toilet, if you wear eyeglasses, if you can afford to purchase even one bra...you are not poor. All of those things are considered unattainable luxuries by the truly poor.

 

 

is poor...and not even that poor (notice the single electrical line going into the house...more than likely it leads to a single light bulb).

 

I am not saying that there aren't many truly poor people in the U.S., because there are. But after seeing what poor really is, my definition changed. What I thought of as "poor" was really just struggling to pay for luxuries. And by the government's standards, we have been very poor...my kids have always qualified for state funded medical care, and until this year we have qualified for food stamps. But at our poorest, the shed in our back yard where we kept our lawn mower was better than the house that the family in the video lived in.

[goldberry]

So, I absolutely agree that most of the poor in our country would not be poor by some country's standards.

 

But here is what I don't get about counting the assistance programs in determining who is poor...

 

Someone is at the level of "poor" by income determinants. So they get government assistance, and if that is taken into consideration, now they don't qualify as "poor" anymore. So the people looking at assistance programs say, "Wow, now that we don't have as many poor, we can decrease these programs."

 

The basic condition of that family has not changed. They are still "poor" in the sense of not being able to provide certain essential needs without assistance.

 

If the poor in this country are not suffering the same way as the poor in other countries, isn't that a credit to our country? Isn't that WHY we have the government programs, because we didn't want to see our citizens suffering like that? So why would we hold it against them that they aren't suffering as much?

 

So, it's like a strange circular argument...We created government programs to help those who can't provide essential needs for themselves. But now that they have essential needs, they are not poor anymore, so do we really need to have all these programs?

 

It totally makes no sense to me.

[SKL]

So, it's like a strange circular argument...We created government programs to help those who can't provide essential needs for themselves. But now that they have essential needs, they are not poor anymore, so do we really need to have all these programs?

 

It totally makes no sense to me.

 

It is not clear to me in what context they are making the argument. What do they use the census info for? To decide on where to direct additional tax-funded projects, probably. So in that case, if the subsidies put group A families $10,000 better off than group B families (who are, without subsidy, slightly above the poverty line), and the government is deciding where to locate some additional assistance projects, what data should they consider? Given limited resources, would it not be unfair to channel still more aid to those who are already $10,000 better off? (My numbers are just for illustration.)

 

Or are they countering an argument that taxes must be increased or social security/medicare must be cut to provide additional assistance to families in poverty (or reduce their benefits somewhat)? In that case again, it is not fair to ignore the fact that those families may be well above the poverty line after considering the subsidies.

 

Obviously it would not make sense to use the info to stop aid to needy families, nor do I believe that is anyone's intent. But on the other hand, I do not agree that a family receiving assistance bringing them above the poverty line should be assumed to need that assistance forever. Except in the case of disabled people, the intent should be to tide them over until they get it together, and a limited time given before benefits are gradually cut. During the time they are receiving benefits, they should be retraining, interviewing for jobs, paying down debt, and looking for ways to economize, as well as taking care of their families. You know, kinda like all of us did when we were getting ready to leave the nest. If there are recipients who plan to be on assistance long-term and act accordingly, then their assistance should be bare subsistence level.

Edited August 27, 2011 by SKL

[leeannpal]

It always amazes me how people who are not poor or have never been poor know exactly how to fix the issue.

 

We grew up poor. Holes in the floor where you can see the dirt underneath, no hot water, only hot meal we ate were at school poor. Both my parents worked. There was not any government assistance. We went without meals, were cold in the winter and the idea of air condition was laughable. Keep in mind I grew up in South Mississippi. Its hots. Both me and my sister learned the value of hard work. We walked along the beach and dug through trash cans to collect aluminum cans to sale for scrap to buy our school clothes. We learned to have marketable skills. An education does not mean you can contribute to the workforce. We would have loved to gone to college for the shear joy of learning but we took classes that would actually benefit us. We didn't have mentors, we had hungry bellies and a tough life.

 

We have come to a mindset that it is someone else's job to provide for you. This country believes no one should suffer. That isn't true. I know what it is like to be on both sides of the fences. I know what it is like to have money in the bank and what it is like to miss meals. Missing those meals growing up is what prevented me and my husband from buying the 200,000 house even though we could afford the payments, it is what has prevented us from running out and buying a new car when the government rolled out another welfare program.

 

Americans have to stop blaming everyone else for being in the position they are in and change. If you can't get a job with your skill set get a new skill set. It really is as simple as that. If you can't find a job in your area move. If you have children it is your responsibility to be able to feed them.

 

Charity is alive and well in this country. I work in a soup kitchen once a week and I see healthy young men with more gold than I have ever owned walk in and eat. I also see illegal immigrant women in with their children. I feed them both and give them the same respect. The people who want to get out of these situations do. I see it everyday. Our church mission works with desperately poor everyday. We buy buildings that are foreclosed on for a few thousand dollars and move those people into them. We help them find jobs. You can see the difference in the attitudes of those who want to change and those who have given in and decided it is alot easier to be on welfare.

 

 

This is a very sensitive issue for me. I have a heart for the poor because that is how I grew up. I know that several people will bash what I said and that is fine. If you want to respond to me specifically send me a private message. I will not be checking the thread again.

 

As much as you would like for this to be true, for many people, it isn't. My husband and I aren't poor, but we are getting poorer every year. We both work, and, in the last three years, his salary has remained the same, mine was cut by 4%, and inflation has gone through the roof. Just the medicines that my daughter and I need alone went up by $200.00 a month starting in January. Just having a job isn't necessarily enough to pay your bills today. Oh, and we don't use credit cards, and other than student loan debt, we have one car payment and medical debt, incurred through no fault of our own, that we are steadily paying off. We do not live beyond our means, but our means are just barely enough to pay the bills now. Although we are moving to China next year for other reasons, I am looking forward to actually being able to afford my medicine in China.

Edited August 27, 2011 by leeannpal

[smillard00]

We live in a community with jobs. In fact, there are some businesses who have struggled to stay open because they have had trouble finding people who are willing to come in and do an honest day's work. However, there are government housing projects full of people who don't work. It isn't that there aren't jobs for them. But apparently, the benefits they are getting from the government are better than what they would get if they took one of those available jobs, so they stay where they are. You drive by on a weekend and there are inflatable jumpy castles with kids jumping in them while the adults are sitting around drinking beer and eating food from the local BBQ place or Chicken restaurant. Our church has a food pantry and utility assistance and it is interesting to see the people who come in for help. You have the grandmother who is raising a dozen grandchildren because her children either can't or won't raise them. I'm happy that we can help her provide for those kids. She can barely lift the bag of groceries we give her and she's grateful. Then there is the young woman who comes in talking on her smart phone, fancy long fake nails on her fingers, salon done hair, gold teeth with bling in her mouth, and plops a big Coach bag down on the desk. Her electric bill is double what ours is and the amount we can give her to help with her bill probably wouldn't fill the tank of the nice SUV that she drives. She makes small talk while the check is written and says something to the effect of "Oh, I couldn't work like this all day. That would just be too hard." And she's living on welfare.

 

I try very very hard not to judge and not to feel negatively about this, but it's really hard when it's flaunted like this. We got nailed on our taxes this year because dh got a gift last year. In fact most of the value of that gift ended up going to the government because it jumped us just across a line that increased our taxes. We usually get a refund which I use to buy curriculum for the next year, but this time we had to write a big check. So when I see people taking government checks and living extravagantly, I start to feel like their luxuries came at the expense of my children getting a new pair of jeans or better school books or taking a field trip.

 

But most of the time, I'm able to just let it go... :)

[Supertechmom]

I have to agree with pp about eeking out a living. We lived within our means, paid our debts and only had a house payment. 4 years ago, we were able to live on my hubby's base pay each week and 2-3 months of commission. The rest of the year's commission was gravy. It supplied all of our extras. (except health insurance that is through the roof and unattainable) Even if the economy had not tanked (which ended our commission pretty much), we can no longer live on that base pay. Base didn't change or go up. However. electricity is now (4 years later) nearly 50-60 a month more, food is up 100 a week ( I could go under a 100 a week and now I can barely keep it under 200.), water went up 15 a month, internet ( We use it for the kids school, my school, and to pay our bills ) tripled. Gas per gallon has doubled effectively increasing our gas budget to an insane line item that makes me sick to see. And that is with the weeks on end that we only drive to church and to work and do everything we need to on the way there or back. But it isn't enough and won't be for a very long time. The standard has changed and it's caught a lot of hard working folks in the cross fires trying to keep up. Even retraining, new skills and new employment takes time and that time means longer in the ever deepening hole.

[Renee in NC]

We live in a community with jobs. In fact, there are some businesses who have struggled to stay open because they have had trouble finding people who are willing to come in and do an honest day's work. However, there are government housing projects full of people who don't work. It isn't that there aren't jobs for them. But apparently, the benefits they are getting from the government are better than what they would get if they took one of those available jobs, so they stay where they are. You drive by on a weekend and there are inflatable jumpy castles with kids jumping in them while the adults are sitting around drinking beer and eating food from the local BBQ place or Chicken restaurant. Our church has a food pantry and utility assistance and it is interesting to see the people who come in for help. You have the grandmother who is raising a dozen grandchildren because her children either can't or won't raise them. I'm happy that we can help her provide for those kids. She can barely lift the bag of groceries we give her and she's grateful. Then there is the young woman who comes in talking on her smart phone, fancy long fake nails on her fingers, salon done hair, gold teeth with bling in her mouth, and plops a big Coach bag down on the desk. Her electric bill is double what ours is and the amount we can give her to help with her bill probably wouldn't fill the tank of the nice SUV that she drives. She makes small talk while the check is written and says something to the effect of "Oh, I couldn't work like this all day. That would just be too hard." And she's living on welfare.

 

I try very very hard not to judge and not to feel negatively about this, but it's really hard when it's flaunted like this. We got nailed on our taxes this year because dh got a gift last year. In fact most of the value of that gift ended up going to the government because it jumped us just across a line that increased our taxes. We usually get a refund which I use to buy curriculum for the next year, but this time we had to write a big check. So when I see people taking government checks and living extravagantly, I start to feel like their luxuries came at the expense of my children getting a new pair of jeans or better school books or taking a field trip.

 

But most of the time, I'm able to just let it go... :)

 

The gov't checks aren't paying for all of that - they just aren't that big. I don't know where her money is coming from, but it isn't just your taxes. That person doesn't live in public housing, because they don't pay their own power bills. Why doesn't your church tell her no? Why keep providing to people who seem to have plenty?

 

However, those are just the ones you notice. Most people getting public assistance don't look like that. You'll never see them because they are too embarassed to come to a church for help. They'd prefer the relative privacy of the gov't programs so that they aren't facing the judgment (whether real or perceived) of the people at the local charity.

 

The stigma is still there for many, many people.

 

ETA: What jobs are available? I am interested what jobs are sitting unfilled.

[Scarlett]

To this, I would say that it is no one's responsibility to give anyone a job. It is a person's responsibility to acquire marketable skills. So, if your skills are no longer in demand, it is time to aquire new ones.

 

She didn't say it was anyone's responsibility to 'give' a job. Just that what they need is a job. And 'marketable' skills. Ha. My dh worked hard physical construction from the time he was 13 when his father was killed leaving behind a wife with 6 kids and one on the way. My dh worked for 20 years and then got hurt while working. So he accepted workers comp while going back to school to acquire marketable skills that he could do since the doctor told him he would never be able to work construction again. He worked with his new skills (design engineering) for almost 10 years. The company he worked for went out of business and dh has not been able to find work in that field for several years. So what should he do now? Acquire marketable skills? No one can live that way with any sense of peace.....constantly going back to school for the latest and greatest needed skill.

[Scarlett]

We live in a community with jobs. In fact, there are some businesses who have struggled to stay open because they have had trouble finding people who are willing to come in and do an honest day's work. However, there are government housing projects full of people who don't work. It isn't that there aren't jobs for them. But apparently, the benefits they are getting from the government are better than what they would get if they took one of those available jobs, so they stay where they are. You drive by on a weekend and there are inflatable jumpy castles with kids jumping in them while the adults are sitting around drinking beer and eating food from the local BBQ place or Chicken restaurant. Our church has a food pantry and utility assistance and it is interesting to see the people who come in for help. You have the grandmother who is raising a dozen grandchildren because her children either can't or won't raise them. I'm happy that we can help her provide for those kids. She can barely lift the bag of groceries we give her and she's grateful. Then there is the young woman who comes in talking on her smart phone, fancy long fake nails on her fingers, salon done hair, gold teeth with bling in her mouth, and plops a big Coach bag down on the desk. Her electric bill is double what ours is and the amount we can give her to help with her bill probably wouldn't fill the tank of the nice SUV that she drives. She makes small talk while the check is written and says something to the effect of "Oh, I couldn't work like this all day. That would just be too hard." And she's living on welfare.

 

I try very very hard not to judge and not to feel negatively about this, but it's really hard when it's flaunted like this. We got nailed on our taxes this year because dh got a gift last year. In fact most of the value of that gift ended up going to the government because it jumped us just across a line that increased our taxes. We usually get a refund which I use to buy curriculum for the next year, but this time we had to write a big check. So when I see people taking government checks and living extravagantly, I start to feel like their luxuries came at the expense of my children getting a new pair of jeans or better school books or taking a field trip.

 

But most of the time, I'm able to just let it go... :)

 

What you are describing is probably fraud though. That is a different animal and statistically not common....but when we see examples of it it naturally grates on our nerves.

[Scarlett]

And how many didn't?

 

A lot. We have no luxuries. We have two used cars with no payment, a very small house payment (thanks to the equity from the house I had with my XH). No one is living large here in our house.

 

Surviving has become MUCH harder than it ever was. Even when XH and I were first married and made minimum wage we had it easier than this.

[Scarlett]

I think it is the individual. Does that mean things suck-yep. Does it mean you may have to make hard choices-yep. Does it mean the whole family may have to have some lifestyle adjustments, or move-yep. Does it mean you may have to work a job you hate or that is below your former-yep. That is life sometimes. I am in no way minimizing these problems or the difficulty of doing any of the above. I am saying we all need to take personal responsiblity for our circumstances and if need be suck it up and take care of business-no matter how hard or unsavory that may be. We are currently what would be considered fairly well-off for our area. We also choose to be debt free-except the farm and live within our means-and are working to live below them. However, both DH and I were poor growing up-him rather poor. Both of us have worked hard physically at low level jobs-can you say shovel manure?. Been there done that. Both of us are not to proud to do so again if need be. Nobody is responsible for "you" other than "you" As the saying goes "When the going gets tough-the tough get going" and maybe we need a bit more of that now and days

 

She isn't saying it is anyone else's responsibility! She is just saying it isn't always possible to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps.

[Scarlett]

If the jobs are necessary, then the positions will be available. If the jobs are no longer necessary (because of technological advancements, for example) then they will not be available. Yes, it is frustrating to spend time and money training for a skill that is no longer in need. However, it is not your neighbor's job (i.e. taxes) to pay you for that skill just because you acquired it. If you want to feed your family, you have to acquire a new skill.

 

In my opinion, that is the fundamental point of this entire thread. People (especially in a slow economy) must put aside wants for needs. People must put aside the "want" of sending their kid to afterschool classes to instead use that money for their own retraining. People must put aside their "want" for a vacation to instead pay for their own retirement.

 

Government assistance has become like paying with a credit card. No one really "sees" where the money comes from, so it is easy to just pay with it.

 

Taryn

 

You really don't have a clue what most people are going through. There are many many people who are barely making it and they are NOT going on vacations and they are NOT funding afterschool programs for their children.

[smillard00]

The gov't checks aren't paying for all of that - they just aren't that big...

 

ETA: What jobs are available? I am interested what jobs are sitting unfilled.

 

Some of the checks are supposedly pretty significant. There is quite an organized network of people working the system.

 

As for the jobs, they are restaurant and retail jobs, mostly. And I can understand that walking away from a government check to make $10/hour would be a "pay cut" for some people. And that is one of the indicators that our system is broken.

Edited August 27, 2011 by smillard00
not going there

[AngelBee]

:lurk5: I have so much want but am trying not to be snarky. :001_huh:

[weaver_67579]

She isn't saying it is anyone else's responsibility! She is just saying it isn't always possible to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps.

 

giving up is not an option. I can imagine that if I was hungry enough-or my kids were-I'll sure make sure I found a way too. Good thing we live on a farm and DH and I know how to grow food ;) and preserve it.

 

Here is the story of my family-(not that you asked for it but it explains me)

My dad died when I was just 3-my uneducated (barely 8th grade equivalent) immigrant mother worked 2 sometimes 3 jobs to keep us afloat. Sure neighbors helped watch us-she hired the neighbor boys (cheap-they were happy to get out of milking cows before school-lol) to come and get us ready for school and on the bus. She did housework and babysat after her regular job so we could get off the bus there with the kids of that family. She found a way to make it work. I can imagine that if I was hungry enough-or my kids were-I'l sure make sure I found a way too. I'm not saying such things are easy-just with public assistance fairly easy to get there isn't as much incentive to do what Mom did back then. I respect her greatly for working like crazy instead of taking the handouts she could have gotten. We did get reduced/free lunches at school and my Dad had some military benefits we got while kids. Mostly it was her blood sweat and tears that kept us going.

 

Personally-I think the assistance system we have stinks. It should be graduated so as you improve your circumstances-it decreases-not a hard and fast line of above or below. It also shouldn't punish you for being married and having an intact family. That is known to help your chances for being off the public dole. I would much rather give people that are working hard trying to improve themselves a hand up than anyone other than the disabled that cannot work a handout.

[Tmhearn]

You really don't have a clue what most people are going through. There are many many people who are barely making it and they are NOT going on vacations and they are NOT funding afterschool programs for their children.

 

Well, I don't agree that me having a different viewpoint than someone else indicates that I don't have a clue what most people are going through. I am simply relating my experience with people that I know and have known.

[Scarlett]

giving up is not an option. I can imagine that if I was hungry enough-or my kids were-I'll sure make sure I found a way too. Good thing we live on a farm and DH and I know how to grow food ;) and preserve it.

 

Here is the story of my family-(not that you asked for it but it explains me)

My dad died when I was just 3-my uneducated (barely 8th grade equivalent) immigrant mother worked 2 sometimes 3 jobs to keep us afloat. Sure neighbors helped watch us-she hired the neighbor boys (cheap-they were happy to get out of milking cows before school-lol) to come and get us ready for school and on the bus. She did housework and babysat after her regular job so we could get off the bus there with the kids of that family. She found a way to make it work. I can imagine that if I was hungry enough-or my kids were-I'l sure make sure I found a way too. I'm not saying such things are easy-just with public assistance fairly easy to get there isn't as much incentive to do what Mom did back then. I respect her greatly for working like crazy instead of taking the handouts she could have gotten. We did get reduced/free lunches at school and my Dad had some military benefits we got while kids. Mostly it was her blood sweat and tears that kept us going.

 

Personally-I think the assistance system we have stinks. It should be graduated so as you improve your circumstances-it decreases-not a hard and fast line of above or below. It also shouldn't punish you for being married and having an intact family. That is known to help your chances for being off the public dole. I would much rather give people that are working hard trying to improve themselves a hand up than anyone other than the disabled that cannot work a handout.

 

I think what you are not understanding is that sometimes a person can do EVERYTHING and still. not. be able to make it. You just told your story....your mother sounds wonderful and hard working---but she received military benefits and probably social security benefits! A 40-50 year old man who has been hurt on the job or let go as his company downsizes doesn't get that help.

 

My dh is working construction---even though he was told by the doctor that he should never again do physical work. He can rarely work 40 hours because he will then be hurting so bad he can't get out of bed. This is a reality. He has skills....lots and lots of skills....but he can't even get an interview for his non physical skills. And we can't move. We have 3 kids between us---I would have to go before a judge to get permission to move away from my son's father (which I would do) but dh would never see his sons if we move. So we hang on.....I can go to work of course....and I probably will have to do that....we are just hanging on as best we can with me at home, homeschooling my son to get my ds as far along in his education as we can.

 

It would be nice if we could assume every person living in poverty put themselves there or could get out if they tried harder. But the reality is Life is hard. Decisions made by others can alter your life in ways you never imagined. These things happen. Life happens. I, along with many many people who understand this do not believe it is anyone's responsibility to 'fix' things. We just understand it is not as simple as many would like to believe.

[Scarlett]

Well, I don't agree that me having a different viewpoint than someone else indicates that I don't have a clue what most people are going through. I am simply relating my experience with people that I know and have known.

 

I didn't say your viewpoint indicates you don't have a clue. And I am sorry that I used that expression because it sounds a little snarky. However, what you related as your experience is not how the vast majority of people in poverty are living. As a matter of fact you described someone who is clearly defrauding the system and they AREN'T living in poverty because of that fraud.

[goldberry]

In my opinion, that is the fundamental point of this entire thread. People (especially in a slow economy) must put aside wants for needs. People must put aside the "want" of sending their kid to afterschool classes to instead use that money for their own retraining. People must put aside their "want" for a vacation to instead pay for their own retirement.

 

Taryn

 

Some people don't have money for ANY of these choices. Your statement is insulting to those in that position.

 

And to the poster who commented that they weren't too good to shovel manure....my hubby applied for jobs just like that AND STILL COULDN'T GET ONE. Thank goodness he is now working. But please don't presume that the majority of those unemployed are "too good" to look for manual labor. That is insulting as well as well as self-righteous.

[Tmhearn]

I didn't say your viewpoint indicates you don't have a clue. And I am sorry that I used that expression because it sounds a little snarky. However, what you related as your experience is not how the vast majority of people in poverty are living. As a matter of fact you described someone who is clearly defrauding the system and they AREN'T living in poverty because of that fraud.

 

No problem. Obviously, this is a sensitive topic for many people. And, my point was that it actually isn't fraud. It is a flaw in the system.

 

Perhaps I should clarify... It's the system that is flawed, not the actual people who need help. Clearly, there are times in a person's life when they need help. However, for many (not all), what led to that point contributed to the situation.

[swellmomma]

I agree where there is a will there is a way, I have lived that way for years. BUT it isn't so cut and dried either. I can not speak for the US system. I do know in Canada supports are very hard to come-by unless you are native so it is not an easy hand out for people to stay on kwim. I do all I can to provide for my kids and give them a good life, but every now and then I get hit extra hard like this weekend, where no matter how much effort, blood, sweat and a heck of a lot of tears I can't make more money magically appear. There is lots of families that face that.

 

My kids have electronics that were gifts, I do not buy them. We got internet last month because ds was supposed to do online school. Now we are stuck in a 3 yr contract and he is not in that program, and not because we pulled him. No cable/satellite etc. We borrow movies from teh library rather than have netflix etc.

 

My kids do participate in extracurrics. It has taken my resourcefulness to get them in those things without costing me money. Cadets is free, Youth group is free, Cubs will let me pay a small amount every month, 4H my sister will pay for and it is cheap, TKD the grandparents pay for, music I barter services for, community drama I do behind the scenes stuff to get it free. I was on the soccer board last year as the volunteer coordinator so that the younger 2 could play soccer for free. In thepast I cleaned the gym so the kids could have free gymnastics, worked bingos so the kids could play free baseball, helped run classes in the inner city so my kids could participate in the free fine arts program even though technically we made too much money and were just outside the neighborhood it was for.

 

From the outside looking in, it looks like my kids have it made, it looks like I am wasting away our money on extracurrics when in fact I pay very little if anything to get them into those activities. I do not want them to miss out on the chance to participate because we have very little money, but at the same time I am not forking over the money we need for food, shelter etc.

 

I own a van, it is a 2000 windstar with over 200K on it. So no car payments. I own my house (well technically my parents hold the deed, but I pay the mortgage), that is a huge payment each month but less than renting was. being in a rural town means utilities are higher than they were in teh city (heck they are higher than in teh next town only 15 minutes away), this winter my furnace was broken so no heat yet we still paid $75 in heating costs, figure that one out...almost all of it was distribution charges, my electric is at least $200/month and I am careful with our usage. $75 is actual electrical costs, the rest is distribution charges. (in otherwords what it supposedly costs for them to just have the electricity go to my house). I have a cell phone with a basic plan because all my driving is highway driving so it is a safety issue. I do have debt I am paying off, almost all of it is student loans but some is stuff that accumulated when my ex did not pay child support for 6 years. I do not get my nails done, or my hair. My glasses have been broken for almost 2 years but I still wear them everyday, because I am blind without them. I do not go to the dentist, or the dr. I jsut gave away our cat. I work as much as I can without giving up homeschooling, and without leaving my oldest home alone which he can not be because of his disabilities. I get child tax benefit (which all canadians get so it's not assistance really), child support and currently employment insurance (I pay into with every pay cheque and with work closed for the summer I get 50% back while out of work) as my normal income. Even if I never went back to work I am deemed to make too much $ to qualify for welfare, not that I want to go that route, just saying, that here in Canada you can be well below the poverty line, and still not qualify for anything. Instead I babysit, and pick bottles, and the kids mow lawns and give me the money so we can stay afloat. I don't even pay the kids their allowance, my mom mails it to them so that they can have a little pocket money to buy the treats etc I can't afford. I think I have pulled myself up by the bootstraps, I think I have poured all I have into keeping us going, yet we are still in poverty. I do not think I am the only one who faces this, nor do I think it is only here in Canada that there is people like me doing all they can and still not getting ahead. I should qualify I do not get GOV'T assistance, but if I did not have the assistance I have gotten from my family, my kids would not have allowance, or quite so many activities and we would not have teh van (it was their old one, they gave it to me when they bought a new one), or this house. What they gave me was a chance. The house is all mine, I pay for the mortgage, all repairs and upkeep, appliances, and make a payment every month to them paying off what they used as a down payment. Once that down payment portion ispaid back to them teh deed gets signed over to me. So it was not a hand out, just a chance to get out of the renting cycle and into a safer area to live.

 

It's funny, I was commenting to another member here, that Canada that gets seen as a socialist society has less things to help the down trodden than the US which is perceived to be more "every man for himself". No WIC, no food stamps, no couponing. Even our health care is not really free, If I want proper care I have to buy health insurance, other wise the Dr nickel and dimes you just to get treatment. S/he will see you for "free" but if you need a sling, or crutches, or a bandage you will be charged. If you need the dr to sign a paper you will be charged. My kids are on a provincial health benefits plan for poor families, the thing is none of the meds they ever need are actually covered, it is a limited list that is covered. In the end the programs that are supposed to work like a safety net don't exist here, but they do there. Yet we are the socialists. I find it amusing.

[swellmomma]

I think what you are not understanding is that sometimes a person can do EVERYTHING and still. not. be able to make it. You just told your story....your mother sounds wonderful and hard working---but she received military benefits and probably social security benefits! A 40-50 year old man who has been hurt on the job or let go as his company downsizes doesn't get that help.

 

My dh is working construction---even though he was told by the doctor that he should never again do physical work. He can rarely work 40 hours because he will then be hurting so bad he can't get out of bed. This is a reality. He has skills....lots and lots of skills....but he can't even get an interview for his non physical skills. And we can't move. We have 3 kids between us---I would have to go before a judge to get permission to move away from my son's father (which I would do) but dh would never see his sons if we move. So we hang on.....I can go to work of course....and I probably will have to do that....we are just hanging on as best we can with me at home, homeschooling my son to get my ds as far along in his education as we can.

 

It would be nice if we could assume every person living in poverty put themselves there or could get out if they tried harder. But the reality is Life is hard. Decisions made by others can alter your life in ways you never imagined. These things happen. Life happens. I, along with many many people who understand this do not believe it is anyone's responsibility to 'fix' things. We just understand it is not as simple as many would like to believe.

 

:iagree:

[Renee in NC]

Brandy, what about the Canada Child Tax Benefit? Factoring in the Universal Child Care Benefit, the CCTB, and the Alberta Employment Tax Credit, it looks like a family llike ours with our income would get about $2300 a month!!! I used the Calculator on the Canadian gov't website. Am I missing something?

[Hunter]

People are in poverty when their rights declared in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, are not being recognized, including article 27.

 

Article 27.

 

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

[Upward Journey]

I'll interject my comments:

 

the "poor" are no longer just the stereotypical single mother, divorced father family living in the bad neighborhood, taking the bus to their part-time, if any, job, spending their money on booze and cigarettes.

 

When you (rhetorical you) say the "poor" are you addressing the cycle of generational poverty that some people experience, or are you addressing the "poor" by today's standards? The paradigm has shifted.

 

I know many people who once (long ago or not so long ago) were NOT poor, they had good job, they have "stuff" (define that where ever you start get offended by a person on assistance owning). This current economy has created a lot of "poor" people on paper. The Middle class (of which we used to be a part of) is dwindling. People who have worked hard all of their lives are now on some form of assistance. They know how to work, they don't need a mentor, they need a job. They need full time employment and because of whatever, it's not out there for them. Not everyone can say Well I guess it's time to run out and get that job now. Bye, hon, I'll be back in a hour. The rules of the game have changed. Many people have gotten caught in the crossfire and are doing everything they possibly can to not lose their sanity (and I don't throw that term around lightly) to keep their family afloat. The government assistance is like a life preserver, it doesn't get them out of the storm, but it might keep them from drowning in the process of finding shore.

 

:iagree:Thank you for saying this.

[swellmomma]

Brandy, what about the Canada Child Tax Benefit? Factoring in the Universal Child Care Benefit, the CCTB, and the Alberta Employment Tax Credit, it looks like a family llike ours with our income would get about $2300 a month!!! I used the Calculator on the Canadian gov't website. Am I missing something?

 

 

I mentioned the child tax benefit, I get that. The UCC is only for kids under 6 so I get that for 1 kid. I do not get the albert employment tax credit, I didn't make enough last year, and it is only twice per year when you do get it, in the past after working fulltime I got $57 twice a year on it. For CCTB, UCC, and I get disability for 2 kids I get $1500/month. I drop $350 off of that starting in January because dd will no longer get disability. I do get gst credit, that is 1 payment every 3 months. Like the above ones it is for everyone not just low income. I get $200 every 3 months for that one.

 

Now you do have more kids than me so you would get more because you would have more X the monthly per child amount. Also you have 2 that would qualify for the UCC. My family is smaller and less kids under 6, so we get less.

 

ETA: when figuring out that income also keep in mind that COL is higher. Everything costs more in Canada. Even though our dollar is stronger than the US $ right now most items are still marked up 30-35% higher in Canada than the US. So even if you are hovering right around or just over the poverty line you still can't afford much because of that.

 

Also the above things are given to all families, they do get adjuested based on income but they are for everyone. My sister and bil make around 150K per year if not more (i don't know the exact amount), they still get the CCTB, just they get like $125 a month instead of what I get. So while it is an assistance of sorts I don't think of it as such in discussions like this because it is not a welfare type program kwim

Edited August 27, 2011 by swellmomma

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

???

I missed that memo.

 

Haven't read the whole thread, but had to jump in:

 

Easier said than done.

 

Also there are lots of people who have very marketable skills but have not been able to get a job. It's a sad fact. For example, my dh has more than one friend who are fully qualified actuaries who worked for many years with competence as actuaries who are having a hard time finding work. Do you know how hard it is to become fully qualified as an actuary?? The average to pass all the exams is 12-15 years. The exam process is terribly difficult. A fully qualified actuary is a rare thing, and he/she should have no issues getting a job somewhere. They cannot be hired in non-actuarial positions because they are so very, very overqualified, and are having a hard time getting even basic actuarial positions.

 

These are men we know--they are competent and eminently qualified to do a job not many are able to do, jobs that ARE still necessary wherever there is insurance or finance, and are having terrible difficulties getting a job. Would you tell them to retrain? With what money? How will they support their families in the time it takes to retrain? What about the fact that the longer they are without work, the less hire-able they are because potential employers start making assumptions about their competence BECAUSE they are out of work?

 

:iagree::iagree:It is many times easier said than done to get new skills:(. Then there is the all too common age discrimination for people even in their 40s:glare:

[kdeno]

food benefit cards? Around here you can buy them for half price ie $200 card for $100. A friend was doing this. I understand needing money for laundry detergent. I also understand people with addictions doing this but are there other reasons?

[weaver_67579]

I think what you are not understanding is that sometimes a person can do EVERYTHING and still. not. be able to make it. You just told your story....your mother sounds wonderful and hard working---but she received military benefits and probably social security benefits! A 40-50 year old man who has been hurt on the job or let go as his company downsizes doesn't get that help.

 

My dh is working construction---even though he was told by the doctor that he should never again do physical work. He can rarely work 40 hours because he will then be hurting so bad he can't get out of bed. This is a reality. He has skills....lots and lots of skills....but he can't even get an interview for his non physical skills. And we can't move. We have 3 kids between us---I would have to go before a judge to get permission to move away from my son's father (which I would do) but dh would never see his sons if we move. So we hang on.....I can go to work of course....and I probably will have to do that....we are just hanging on as best we can with me at home, homeschooling my son to get my ds as far along in his education as we can.

 

It would be nice if we could assume every person living in poverty put themselves there or could get out if they tried harder. But the reality is Life is hard. Decisions made by others can alter your life in ways you never imagined. These things happen. Life happens. I, along with many many people who understand this do not believe it is anyone's responsibility to 'fix' things. We just understand it is not as simple as many would like to believe.

 

that nothing works for everyone. I also have not seen anyone on here say getting out of poverty is simple or making light of it-only speaking of things/people they know personally. I also understand that there are other programs to help the above things you mentioned-disability and unemployment-both of which some of my family members have recieved/are receiving. I also understand that the decisions of others can affect our lives. I do believe that there are usually more than one way to change whatever situation you are in. It is all about choices. Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do (some things we have discussed are if needed I would take a job or we could move-even though letting the farm we own that DH grew up on be sold would be hard), but there are choices. I also understand that those choices can be gutwrenching and the crawling out of the hole can take a very long time. Having another opinion does not make me ignorant or without understanding-maybe I just have seen other alternatives or have a different personality. I am not a can't do person and it does bother me a little when people say they can't do when it is really don't want to do or won't do-I say this in reference to family and nobody on here example-one family has ongoing financial difficulties and wife complained to me about them. I said-Why don't you find a job (this was several years ago) ? She said I can't I have 4 kids and no education-can't afford daycare. My response-can't you work at night when DH is home-like stocking shelves or something or at a restaurant? Oh No-I don't want to do that. I know some homeschoolers that work grocery stores and such so they can do just that. Also have family works in home health and works part-time with no benefits-really needs health care herself. She could work at a local nursing home and get that benefit-but has and hates it. Well-how much do you want health care?

[mommaduck]

that nothing works for everyone. I also have not seen anyone on here say getting out of poverty is simple or making light of it-only speaking of things/people they know personally. I also understand that there are other programs to help the above things you mentioned-disability and unemployment-both of which some of my family members have recieved/are receiving. I also understand that the decisions of others can affect our lives. I do believe that there are usually more than one way to change whatever situation you are in. It is all about choices. Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do (some things we have discussed are if needed I would take a job or we could move-even though letting the farm we own that DH grew up on be sold would be hard), but there are choices. I also understand that those choices can be gutwrenching and the crawling out of the hole can take a very long time. Having another opinion does not make me ignorant or without understanding-maybe I just have seen other alternatives or have a different personality. I am not a can't do person and it does bother me a little when people say they can't do when it is really don't want to do or won't do-I say this in reference to family and nobody on here example-one family has ongoing financial difficulties and wife complained to me about them. I said-Why don't you find a job (this was several years ago) ? She said I can't I have 4 kids and no education-can't afford daycare. My response-can't you work at night when DH is home-like stocking shelves or something or at a restaurant? Oh No-I don't want to do that. I know some homeschoolers that work grocery stores and such so they can do just that. Also have family works in home health and works part-time with no benefits-really needs health care herself. She could work at a local nursing home and get that benefit-but has and hates it. Well-how much do you want health care?

 

You know, there are those of us that would be happy stocking shelves in the middle of the night, but for the fact that our husband's work schedules fluctuate and can be unpredictable. There are some days, my husband has to be in at work at 3am and others at 5am (most stores insist you stay till 6am or 8am of the ones that I know of). He can get home anywhere between 3pm and 8pm. It's not predictable. The schedule is not known more than a couple of days in advanced and leaving time is based on when the deliveries are done. Then, IF you are fortunate enough to have a stable schedule, when is mom going to sleep? She has to be up through two shifts with the kids to school, feed, and eventually get supper ready. Then dad comes home and there is only a couple of hours left till mom goes to work. Yes, there are families that manage it. But, what is dad's schedule? What is his work/sleep like? Are mom's hours flexible? How old are the kids (aka, can they manage on their own)? Etc.

 

btw, I was turned down from a WAITRESSING job, because I had kids and was too old to push around on the schedule.

[AngelBee]

 

btw, I was turned down from a WAITRESSING job, because I had kids and was too old to push around on the schedule.

 

That is not uncommon in the restaurant industry. :(

[mommaduck]

That is not uncommon in the restaurant industry. :(

 

Fortunately, we have been blessed in that we live within our income and have next to no debt.

[AngelBee]

People are in poverty when their rights declared in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, are not being recognized, including article 27.

 

Article 27.

 

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.