treading gently here...

[myfunnybunch]

Removing corporal punishment does not lead to happier, better adjusted teenagers. Teen suicide rates and depression were much lower in past generations.

 

Many, many things have changed culturally.

 

It is certainly a fact that rates of corporal punishment have dropped. It is a fact that teen suicide and depression have risen. But two facts existing together does not mean that there is a causal relationship, even if it suits our beliefs to put them together.

 

The internet didn't exist years ago. My grandparents didn't have the choice of eating at McDonald's as kids. There were fewer ice cream flavors in past generations. Those are also facts about previous generations. But no one is correlating those with teen suicide and depression. (Although I suppose one could make a case that Facebook bullying and immediate access to information and screen addiction, or poor nutrition, or plethora of choice could contribute to an increase in depression and suicide rates.)

 

It is misleading to point the finger at removal of corporal punishment alone and say "There's the culprit!" There are too many cultural factors at play.

 

Cat

[JenniferB]

Many, many things have changed culturally.

 

It is certainly a fact that rates of corporal punishment have dropped. It is a fact that teen suicide and depression have risen. But two facts existing together does not mean that there is a causal relationship, even if it suits our beliefs to put them together.

 

The internet didn't exist years ago. My grandparents didn't have the choice of eating at McDonald's as kids. There were fewer ice cream flavors in past generations. Those are also facts about previous generations. But no one is correlating those with teen suicide and depression. (Although I suppose one could make a case that Facebook bullying and immediate access to information and screen addiction, or poor nutrition, or plethora of choice could contribute to an increase in depression and suicide rates.)

 

It is misleading to point the finger at removal of corporal punishment alone and say "There's the culprit!" There are too many cultural factors at play.

 

Cat

 

Thank you for posting what I was too lazy to post. :iagree:

[JenniferB]

Um...ok. Not really sure what your point is. I was honestly confused. I read Mandy's post and saw a inductive fallacy. I didn't see facts. I thought I had missed something.

 

I thought she was being sarcastic, that there were facts.

[simka2]

I thought she was being sarcastic.

I couldn't tell. ;) At first I thought so as well, but the whole thing just ended up wierd. Oh well, no biggie! Off to cook some blackened tilapia. :D

[JenniferB]

I should get busy too. I'm off to watch the IEW DVDs. Eek.

[Phil413]

:iagree:

 

We spanked our kids when they were young. Most don't understand a good explanation of why not to do something when they have no reasoning skills yet. There are exceptions of those kids that will melt when they get a stern look of disapproval from mom or dad, but I wouldn't say that is the norm.

 

We always followed our spankings with praying with them and them asking for forgiveness.

[Mandy in TN]

There are plenty of scholarly articles currently being written that say spanking has a negative impact on a child's development. A hundred years ago there were plenty of scholars saying that not spanking had a negative impact on a child's development.

 

I just stated the facts. I don't have the answer, but I do know that a school where another child can bully or physically abuse my child and where the only adult in the room is not only not allowed to physically intervene but also where the system favors the perpetrator is not a place where I want my child. This isn't just about how corporal punishment impacts the child receiving the punishment. It is about how the perpetrator’s behavior impacts the other children in the room. It is about how time-out for this child, talking to this child, and in-school suspension for this child are ineffective in deterring future inappropriate behavior. It is about how the victim doesn't feel safe and that the perpetrator doesn't feel that there were any consequences for his actions.

 

A century ago most schools would have spanked this child and then his parents would have spanked him. He would have been told repeatedly that his behavior was inappropriate by all adults involved. Now, the school pats him on the head and tries to rationalize why he would have behaved in such a way. His parents want to know why he should be in trouble when last year John Doe did something similar and he didn't get in trouble.

 

Today's scholars try to figure out the whys and today's parents try to get their child out of trouble even if what the child did is clearly wrong. Everyone in this scenario is catering to the child with the worst behavior. Not one person in this scenario is looking out the victim or the other children in the group. Meanwhile, this sort of behavior by those in authority actually encourages the perpetrator to continue or even escalate his inappropriate behavior.

 

So many people when they talk of corporal punishment, talk in extremes and just view it through the lens of their little family unit. As I stated, I don't have the answer, but I know that Lord of the Flies is not the real life story in which I want my children to have a part. This is one of the many reasons why my children are home educated.

 

Mandy

[astrid]

In certain areas we have done very well in eliminating spankings... we have NOT found any successful ways to curtail lying without spanking for that infraction.

 

Forgive me if you've already answered this and I missed it, but if you are spanking for lying, and the lying is continuing, how do you know that spanking is effective in curtailing the lying?

 

astrid

[LibraryLover]

There are plenty of scholarly articles currently being written that say spanking has a negative impact on a child's development. A hundred years ago there were plenty of scholars saying that not spanking had a negative impact on a child's development.

 

 

I would like to read those. Except they don't exist. :)

[LisaKinVA]

Forgive me if you've already answered this and I missed it, but if you are spanking for lying, and the lying is continuing, how do you know that spanking is effective in curtailing the lying?

 

astrid

 

Forgiven ;)

[astrid]

Forgiven ;)

 

Oh. Okay then. Could you point me to your answer? I"m genuinely curious as to how you know this is working?

 

astrid

[Ginevra]

Spanking isn't our only tool... however, in most cases, by reserving it for things like lying, my children have become more likely to tell me the truth to avoid the spanking. My goal is for them to answer truthfully. When we stopped spanking for lying, and tried some other suggestions here for 30 days, my children lied to me a LOT more.

 

Most of my children will now tell me the truth, so I rarely spank. It is a concrete consequence, and I'm perfectly happy they want to avoid it by telling me the truth.

 

However, I have one who is extremely difficult and will lie no matter what (even when he's been caught in the act... he'll lie). He is the one who is now pretty much by either my side or dh's side all. day. long. We are currently spending this time doing a LOT of talking (not just me talking at him, but asking, and discussing.) He is reaching an age that he feels he *should* be able to do more, and we aren't letting him -- so he's sneaking around to do X or Y. He's not sneaking around out of fear of being spanked, he's sneaking around because (a) he doesn't trust his father or I would allow him to do things, so he doesn't bother to even ask, and (b) we can't trust him to do X, so certainly aren't going to allow him to do Y. Obviously, we have something here that needs to be fixed on a relational level. We need to build more trust both ways... and more respect both ways.

 

There are things a spanking won't fix, and I don't expect them to.

 

I agree with you that there is a trust/relational issue that is at the heart of the lying and I agree with keeping him around you and talking with him. I think a spanking at that age is a very large withdrawal of the trust account. It's more than just not fixing it, I expect it adds to the distrust. Are there any responsiblities that he could be trained to take care of, as his stewardship? For example, if he could be in charge of paying the bills or maintaining some element of the yard? This would not be a chore you keep telling him to do; it would be his stewardship.

 

 

I don't think you really read what I said. My 5 and 8 yo were not spanked, they didn't get to eat pie, and watch the movie. It was NOT late at night, it was just before dinner. The task was NOT overwhelming, and well within their abilities to complete it. I did NOT ask them to clean up an entire room... I asked one to carry up the dirty clothes and the other to pick up the stuffed animals.

 

As far as it "hurting you" to think that I'm telling my children they are making a CHOICE, that is exactly what they are doing. They understood the instructions given, they acknowledged the instructions given and they CHOSE not to carry up the dirty clothes or pick up the stuffed animals (I think there were 5 on the ground!).

 

Heck, even Super Nanny would understand that they were given a specific task, well within their abilities and CHOSE not to do it. She even uses the terminology of CHOICE. To say a child has "no choice" is essentially saying they can't control themselves... totally not true. While it may be true in certain circumstances (I set a bowl of M&M's in front of them and tell them not to eat any... or take a tired child out to the store at 10pm and they melt down), but in this case, so not true.

 

My 11yo was not "spanked" for being overwhelmed by temptation, but for lying. The being overwhelmed by temptation was dealt with in another manner. They AREN'T spanked if the DON'T lie. They have NO FEAR of a spanking for ADMITTING the deed, period, so your comments are pretty lost on me there.

 

In certain areas we have done very well in eliminating spankings... we have NOT found any successful ways to curtail lying without spanking for that infraction.

 

Spanking isn't fixing the lying, though, right? That is what you said about your oldest ds, right? That you went through a while that it was infrequent, but now you recognize this trust/relational problem.

 

Ugh. When I read these threads I wonder why there is such an us and them mentality. Why paint one another in such extremes? Why not agree to disagree, sharing your personal experience of how you discipline your children and let it rest? Why can't we believe that someone who does differently does so compassionately and effectively? We must either be dull unthinking abusers who only spank because we aren't enlightened, or be permissive neglectful parents who are raising the next generation of lawless infidels.

 

:confused:

 

I hear this crop up in each thread, but I don't even get that impression. Sure - we have a couple of wacky outliers who wind up banned, but I don't see that as the typical post. I don't support spanking (though I have spanked some in the past), but I don't feel that "THEY" all think I'm a willy-nilly, lax parent. If anyone thinks that, then :smilielol5: My natural tendency is to be too harsh, too authoritarian. By the same coin, I don't think "normal" spanking is child abuse. I don't even think "planned" spankings are child abuse, I just think they're unnecessary. I don't feel enmity towards any of the posters I've responded too (except that one who got banned in the thread that got deleted.)

 

I am happy you have found a solution to this issue that works in your family. We have not. As I mentioned, we *have* tried many other solutions for quite a long time (several months), and the lying simply got worse and worse. They thought some of the things we were doing were just silly and lied on purpose and would laugh about it. My younger 3 do not lie very often -- they are only likely to lie if I forget to explain the consequence, if I do re-explain the consequence, I get truth.

 

My oldest is the one for whom we have yet to find a currency for discipline. Taking away MP3, Wii, computer time, tv time, friends, sending to bed, spanking, loss of a campling weekend... praise charts, special rewards have all failed with this child. He is PROUD of his feats, and still brags about some of the things he has done (this is the child who BROKE Norton. I mean BROKE it, we couldn't turn it on, and he could go anywhere on the internet. He was FOUR. He thinks he is smarter and knows better than anyone else. It took us 12 hours to fix that one (and no, he wasn't spanked for it). It does not help that outsiders keep reinforcing his pride in his abilities. (Please, don't get me wrong, he IS smart, too smart for his own good sometimes, but we aren't praising him for being smart. That's like praising him for having blue eyes or a cute dimple). I am hoping that the time he is spending working by my side, or by dh's side will help us to build the mutual trust and respect that is apparently lacking. We are giving him more of US, in the hopes that we can resolve these issues, and guide him to becoming the young man we know he could be.

 

The term currency that comes up over and over really bugs me. We are each in a relationship with our children. How can people talk about currency? I make the comparison to my dh or a good friend of mine - other people with whom I am in a relationship. What do I do if dh does something I don't like? Do I look for his currency as a way to abate the undesirable behavior? What would it do to our relationship if I said, "Well, his currency is acts of service so I'm not making him dinner tomorrow night. When he asks when dinner will be, I'll just shrug and tell him he should have thought about dinner when he failed to take the trash to the curb." Clearly, the relationship would not be supported by this kind of tit-for-tat.

 

You don't state your oldest child's age, but I'm guessing he must be no younger than 12. Now is the time to treat him as a person you are in a relationship with. He is getting too old to afford a mistrustful relationship, as you clearly recognize.

[LisaKinVA]

Oh. Okay then. Could you point me to your answer? I"m genuinely curious as to how you know this is working?

 

astrid

 

#188 & #197 (pretty sure those are the numbers)

 

My children range in age from 2-11 (he is approaching 12...). And no, we haven't found much of anything to really "work" for my oldest. My younger four are much more responsive to Time Outs/positive reinforcement (except for lying). I asked all of them today which they were more afraid of... losing a privilege or a spanking. They all looked at me in near unison said, "spanking." Right now, they are all enjoying the Sound of Music with Grandma :D (rooms were picked up, tasks completed...now rewards!) I much prefer giving rewards... it's so much more fun.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LisaK in VA

[ThatCyndiGirl]

 

 

 

 

The term currency that comes up over and over really bugs me. We are each in a relationship with our children. How can people talk about currency? I make the comparison to my dh or a good friend of mine - other people with whom I am in a relationship. What do I do if dh does something I don't like? Do I look for his currency as a way to abate the undesirable behavior? What would it do to our relationship if I said, "Well, his currency is acts of service so I'm not making him dinner tomorrow night. When he asks when dinner will be, I'll just shrug and tell him he should have thought about dinner when he failed to take the trash to the curb." Clearly, the relationship would not be supported by this kind of tit-for-tat.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I had never thought of it that way. I know that Dr. Phil uses this term and even the expression "You gotta find their currency" in reference to discipline. I have heard it over and over and have never thought of it the way you expressed it.

[Ginevra]

Here's my little spanking anecdote, for those who think the "good ole days" where so great about corporal punishment.

 

I went to a private Christian school for the first 7 years of my education. It was a tiny school, with a Baptist principal/pastor, and corporal punishment in the discipline philosophy. (I never earned a spanking in my years there.) There was a sickening wooden paddle that hung in the pastor's office. Incidentally, it also hung in his home, for his four children.

 

Two boys, brothers, Tommy and Steven, "earned" a spanking almost Every. Single. Day. Every day, they would be taken into the principal's office, where the rest of us could hear that horrible plank hitting those boys and their wailing, bawling pleads that they would "never do it again!" Only, they obviously did do "it" again, because they were spanked very nearly every day.

 

I believe my mind was made up, even all those years ago, that spanking could not be effective. I don't know what became of Tommy and Steven, but I would not be shocked to find out they were in prison. I do know that all of the pastor's children went prodigal, although I don't know if they straightened up later in life or not.

 

I don't think any child should be subjected to what those boys went through, least of all by someone who was not the parent. It obviously was not changing their behavior for the better, so I can't imagine what good the pastor/parents thought would eventually come of it.

[astrid]

Nice to meet you! :) Thank you for exhibiting good parenting and not trashing me because I parent differently. Please know that my previous post was not meant to offend anyone, just offer my personal experiences. :001_smile:

 

 

You're very welcome--- and no worries--- I took no offense. Just wanted to stand up for those of us who parent without the use of spanking and still have managed to raise decent kids. :001_smile:

 

astrid

[Mandy in TN]

For recent pro-corporal punishment studies, look for studies by Marjorie Gunnoe and Jason M. Fuller. Even though data strongly suggests that spanking young children is beneficial, for someone to stand up and point at anti-spanking legislation as the emperor that indeed has no clothes is rare. Not because they are the only ones who can't see emperor's beautiful garments, but because to an adult who wants to believe that children are naturally gentle and kind or an adult who believes that children have the capacity to be rationalized with like an adult or to someone who has experienced abuse it may seem counterintuitive.

 

Here is an article that sums it up.

 

Here is another Majorie Gunoe summary.

 

Jason Fuller's research draws the correlation between illegal, violent, and inappropriate teen behavior and a lack a corporal discipline.

 

Mandy

[justamouse]

For recent pro-corporal punishment studies, look for studies by Marjorie Gunnoe and Jason M. Fuller. Even though data strongly suggests that spanking young children is beneficial, for someone to stand up and point at anti-spanking legislation as the emperor that indeed has no clothes is rare. Not because they are the only ones who can't see emperor's beautiful garments, but because to an adult who wants to believe that children are naturally gentle and kind or an adult who believes that children have the capacity to be rationalized with like an adult or to someone who has experienced abuse it may seem counterintuitive.

 

Here is an article that sums it up.

 

Here is another Majorie Gunoe summary.

 

Jason Fuller's research draws the correlation between illegal, violent, and inappropriate teen behavior and a lack a corporal discipline.

 

Mandy

 

Actually, if you want to slog (actually it's pretty fascinating reading) through BOWLING ALONE, he makes a stronger argument that suicide rates have increased as technology has increased-it has nothing to do with corporal punishment, and his stats are compiled from a broader range of sources.

 

MAtter of fact, one of the most facinating parts to me was that the south has the highest rate of violent crime int he states-which is funny considering it's also the bible belt (which I would bet is among a high amount of spankers).

[astrid]

For recent pro-corporal punishment studies, look for studies by Marjorie Gunnoe and Jason M. Fuller. Even though data strongly suggests that spanking young children is beneficial, for someone to stand up and point at anti-spanking legislation as the emperor that indeed has no clothes is rare. Not because they are the only ones who can't see emperor's beautiful garments, but because to an adult who wants to believe that children are naturally gentle and kind or an adult who believes that children have the capacity to be rationalized with like an adult or to someone who has experienced abuse it may seem counterintuitive.

 

Here is an article that sums it up.

 

Here is another Majorie Gunoe summary.

 

Jason Fuller's research draws the correlation between illegal, violent, and inappropriate teen behavior and a lack a corporal discipline.

 

Mandy

 

Thanks for the links, but I"m not the one who asked.

 

And honestly, there is nothing that could be said to me that would convince me to raise my hand in anger to anyone, least of all my own child. In another thread on this board, someone said they'd punish children who hit each other by hitting them, stating "Only Mommy gets to hit!"

That makes my stomach turn, and I just do not see the rationality and benefit. Our parenting methods do not include physical violence, and they've worked just fine thus far.

 

So while I appreciate your efforts in digging up those links, I think they were meant for others.

 

Peace,

Astrid

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Re: Gunroe study, this quote stood out to me, "But Gunnoe’s work drew on a study of 2,600 people, about a quarter of whom had never been physically chastised." :001_huh:

 

So, about a quarter of the people in the study had never been spanked, but she extrapolated all of that? Both links led to the same study, btw, both from VERY Conservative sites. They report what their readers want to read/hear. If they reported on how harmful physical discipline is they would lose readers, imo.

[LibraryLover]

For recent pro-corporal punishment studies, look for studies by Marjorie Gunnoe and Jason M. Fuller. Even though data strongly suggests that spanking young children is beneficial, for someone to stand up and point at anti-spanking legislation as the emperor that indeed has no clothes is rare. Not because they are the only ones who can't see emperor's beautiful garments, but because to an adult who wants to believe that children are naturally gentle and kind or an adult who believes that children have the capacity to be rationalized with like an adult or to someone who has experienced abuse it may seem counterintuitive.

 

Here is an article that sums it up.

 

Here is another Majorie Gunoe summary.

 

Jason Fuller's research draws the correlation between illegal, violent, and inappropriate teen behavior and a lack a corporal discipline.

 

Mandy

 

Oh boy. I am going to take a :chillpill: and pretend this post doesn't exisit.

 

There is a mod somewhere who thanks me. lol

[justamouse]

Re: Gunroe study, this quote stood out to me, "But Gunnoe’s work drew on a study of 2,600 people, about a quarter of whom had never been physically chastised." :001_huh:

 

So, about a quarter of the people in the study had never been spanked, but she extrapolated all of that? Both links led to the same study, btw, both from VERY Conservative sites. They report what their readers want to read/hear. If they reported on how harmful physical discipline is they would lose readers, imo.

 

Conservatives who are against the Right of the Child stuff. IOW, a study to back up their spin. :glare:

[myfunnybunch]

A century ago most schools would have spanked this child and then his parents would have spanked him. He would have been told repeatedly that his behavior was inappropriate by all adults involved.

 

Stating facts still doesn't lead to causation or correlation between them.

 

It's interesting that bullying is being brought up, because I was thinking about bullying earlier. At least in my grandfather's generation (from stories he's told about his school days), what we see as bullying was often seen as normal boy behavior, and children who cried about it were told to "toughen up". The bully might well have not been spanked anyway.

 

We can't know because we can't go back and measure the differences. That's where the facts fall apart.

 

Cat

[astrid]

Oh boy. I am going to take a :chillpill: and pretend this post doesn't exisit.

 

There is a mod somewhere who thanks me. lol

 

:iagree:

 

I'm going to ask my dh to spank me if I reply.....:D

 

astrid

:leaving:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:iagree:

 

I'm going to ask my dh to spank me if I reply.....:D

 

astrid

:leaving:

 

 

Is that your 'currency'?

 

The whole "Well, there was spanking back then and less crime" thing is a rather spurious argument indeed.

 

There were less car choices back then, too as well as no cell phones.

 

Drowning deaths go up at the same time as ice cream sales. Are ice cream sales responsible for drowning deaths? :tongue_smilie:

[twoforjoy]

I think it's kind of pointless to make comparisons between now and "the good old days," because most people wildly underestimate how many parents today spank (I bet many people who spank would say that they are in the minority, but over 90% of parents in the U.S. report spanking) and probably overestimate how much corporal punishment took place in the past. My father's parents used a lot of physical discipline; my mother's parents used it so rarely that the one or two occasions she or her siblings were spanked are very memorable to her. I'm guessing that if you really looked at it, rates of corporal punishment within the home were not all that different than they are now.

[annandatje]

Overall the violent crime rate has dropped dramatically since mid 1990s.

Edited August 23, 2011 by annandatje

[twoforjoy]

The whole "Well, there was spanking back then and less crime" thing is a rather spurious argument indeed.

 

And, it's not true there was less crime in the past. There were huge amounts of crime around the turn of the century, much of it perpetrated by teen boys.

 

Crime rates in the 20th century seemed to peak in the 1980s, and have declined since then. Do we think that rates of spanking were lower in the 1980s than they were in the 1990s? If spanking is what determines the crime rate, then it's hard to conclude otherwise, but certainly research wouldn't bear that out.

[annandatje]

I truly thought that bare bottomed spanking was confined to adult erotic practices. I was surprised to learn differently.

[LibraryLover]

I truly thought that bare bottomed spanking was confined to adult erotic practices. I was surprised to learn differently.

 

 

Although there is probably a very good reason Spanking erotica is right at the top of any Google search on Spanking and goes on for pages.

 

I'd like to know what percentage of spanking fetishes are sparked by childhood spankings. (Not really do I want to know. I don't.)

 

I wonder if there is any research about adults spankers having been spanked as kids...or not. Spanking is such a power play...and add a naked bottom to that...well, it sounds like porn/erotica/whatever. I wonder how many search hits WTM gets on it's spanking children threads.

 

Might be something for the owners to consider.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[ThatCyndiGirl]

For a compelling rebuttal of her research see this link:

 

http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,print,0&cntnt01articleid=22&cntnt01showtemplate=false&cntnt01returnid=51

[Ginevra]

Is that your 'currency'?

 

The whole "Well, there was spanking back then and less crime" thing is a rather spurious argument indeed.

 

There were less car choices back then, too as well as no cell phones.

 

Drowning deaths go up at the same time as ice cream sales. Are ice cream sales responsible for drowning deaths? :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: All too true!

[LibraryLover]

For a compelling rebuttal of her research see this link:

 

http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,print,0&cntnt01articleid=22&cntnt01showtemplate=false&cntnt01returnid=51

 

 

Yeah! No 24 hour ban for me!

[Ginevra]

nevermind.

 

I need to go read my book. I have to leave the conversation now before I leave up a post I shouldn't.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Quill
Thought better of it.

[Joanne]

[quote name='Mandy in TN;3069163

A century ago most schools would have spanked this child and then his parents would have spanked him. He would have been told repeatedly that his behavior was inappropriate by all adults involved. Now' date=' the [b']school pats him on the head and tries to rationalize why he would have behaved in such a way. His parents want to know why he should be in trouble when last year John Doe did something similar and he didn't get in trouble[/b].

 

Today's scholars try to figure out the whys and today's parents try to get their child out of trouble even if what the child did is clearly wrong. Everyone in this scenario is catering to the child with the worst behavior. Not one person in this scenario is looking out the victim or the other children in the group. Meanwhile, this sort of behavior by those in authority actually encourages the perpetrator to continue or even escalate his inappropriate behavior.

 

The blatant inaccuracies, assumptions, stereotypes, and generalizations in this post (bolded) make it difficult to credit your post with any validity.

 

 

So many people when they talk of corporal punishment, talk in extremes and just view it through the lens of their little family unit. As I stated, I don't have the answer, but I know that Lord of the Flies is not the real life story in which I want my children to have a part. This is one of the many reasons why my children are home educated.

 

"Their little family unit" is quite patronizing. Most of the women here (and men) are quite research driven, informed, and widely read. This is especially true on topics they have a consuming interest, such as parenting.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Joanne

[astrid]

Is that your 'currency'?

 

The whole "Well, there was spanking back then and less crime" thing is a rather spurious argument indeed.

 

There were less car choices back then, too as well as no cell phones.

 

Drowning deaths go up at the same time as ice cream sales. Are ice cream sales responsible for drowning deaths? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I was joking! (but maybe it was only funny in my mind?)

FWIW, I'm very, VERY anti-spanking. Violence, regardless of the reason/direction/perpetrator has no place in our home.

 

astrid

[Rivka]

I'll look further tomorrow when I'm at work and have access to more databases, but I can't seem to find any sign that the Gunnoe study has been published in a peer-reviewed journal. Neither of the links provided says anything about publication either.

 

I'm a scientist. We don't accept reports about studies that haven't been through the peer review process and that haven't had their full methodology, including the measures used and the statistical tests conducted, made available for scrutiny by our peers.

 

Particularly not if the "study" makes a huge splash in the popular press instead of being properly presented to fellow researchers.

[Rivka]

I haven't read this massive thread, but here are my thoughts:

 

Removing corporal punishment does not lead to happier, better adjusted teenagers. Teen suicide rates and depression were much lower in past generations.

 

It has not led to responsible young adults. The generations that got paddled at school, scolded by neighbors all the way home, and spanked again by mom for getting in trouble at school understood that there was no long-term happiness without taking care of your responsibilities.

 

Neither personal property nor violent crimes by teenagers and young adults have not gone down since we removed corporal punishment in schools. In fact, the increase in these crimes is staggering.

 

Removing corporal punishment has not made for a generation of happier or better adjusted young people. Removing corporal punishment has not led to a generation of young people who are more responsible, gentle, or kind. On the whole, it has had the opposite effect.

 

Just a fact!

Mandy

 

Something like 90% of American parents have spanked their kids, so corporal punishment has clearly not been "removed."

 

Juvenile crime rates are not "increasing at a staggering rate." They are decreasing at a staggering rate. Juvenile arrests are down 33% since 1996.

http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/JAR_Display.asp?ID=qa05200

 

Are the rest of your "facts" like these two?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I was joking! (but maybe it was only funny in my mind?)

FWIW, I'm very, VERY anti-spanking. Violence, regardless of the reason/direction/perpetrator has no place in our home.

 

astrid

 

 

Oh, I know you are. I quoted you about the 'currency' thing and should have quoted someone else about the spurious connections. Sorry. I didn't mean to direct that second part to you.

[astrid]

LOL! Okay, just wanted to make sure you knew that...... :D

 

astrid

[unsinkable]

I wonder how many search hits WTM gets

 

 

I think there have been threads like this already that have attracted tr0ll$.

[Pamela H in Texas]

LisaK, I probably should have emailed this, but...

 

(note: I have read pieces of this thread; not all of it).

 

Does your ds have any issue such as Aspergers or maybe a shadow syndrome of a spectrum disorder?

Does he or did he have any real medical issues?

Is he biologically yours? Any prenatal, birth, or newborn trauma?

Could he have been extra sensitive so harmed by more typical methods as a little guy?

 

Even if not, you might look at Beyond Consequences, Logic, and Control just because you haven't been able to reach him otherwise. It is generally a good help for parents of kids with severe behaviors, often due to trauma. However, I had an EXTREMELY challenging biological kid myself. I wish I had known about BCLC then (though I wonder if I would have kept reading it through all the trauma stuff...I may just not have been ready back then).

 

I did change to nonpunitive discipline because I needed something better. We used a reward chart twice ever so don't think we went that direction. We simply used strong, consistent, teaching-based discipline. I just think the extra step of BCLC, the primary focus, would have helped us.

 

Only you know if you are there. But lying is one of the key issues the parenting deals with.

 

Anyway, none of the questions above are needing to be answered. They were things that could possibly cause a child to seem less responsive to typical, even good, discipline.

[Cheryl in NM]

The term currency that comes up over and over really bugs me. We are each in a relationship with our children. How can people talk about currency? I make the comparison to my dh or a good friend of mine - other people with whom I am in a relationship. What do I do if dh does something I don't like? Do I look for his currency as a way to abate the undesirable behavior? What would it do to our relationship if I said, "Well, his currency is acts of service so I'm not making him dinner tomorrow night. When he asks when dinner will be, I'll just shrug and tell him he should have thought about dinner when he failed to take the trash to the curb." Clearly, the relationship would not be supported by this kind of tit-for-tat.

 

There are actually two ways to apply the "currency" concept. My relationship with my child is totally different than my relationship with my husband. My husband and I are partners. I currency to treat him well. I do thinks that I don't particularly care for or am ambivalent about because it's what he likes. He does the same with me. I also do this with my son, especially with his music! BUT....the big difference here is that I am responsible for teaching my child the "right" way to be. It's my job to make sure he understands how to behave and how to treat others. In that case, especially with a child that weighs the consequence with the infraction and decides the punishment is worth it, I need to find his currency. I need to find what works. If a spanking corrects behavior, then so be it. If taking away the internet corrects behavior, then so be it. So on and so forth. BTW, punishment/consequences don't usually work the very first time. It is usually a process. Now with my teenager, I can reason with him and leave some things for the natural consequences to sort out. Some things result in loss of privileges. He hasn't been spanked since he dropped the "f" bomb in the car at 11 years old. He had been warned several times about his declining attitude. When he said word that Dh calmly pulled the car over, pulled him out and delivered about 5 good swats on ds's rear-end. It was a "calm" spanking. Dh said, "I don't think we need to discuss this further." It was over and our day went on. He hasn't said that word in front of us since. I think when the situation is rare/severe enough it might work once and for all. Before that he hadn't been spanked in about 2 years (5 years since his dad spanked him).

 

Anyway, I don't see the "currency" concept as a "tit-for-tat" type of relationship. I just can't think of a more concise way to explain it. If I explained it without the word "currency" (as above), would it offend you so much?

[halfdozen]

I have six children. Different children respond to different types of punishment. Most of mine have only had two or three spankings in their lives, because they normally responded well to withholding of privileges or other non-corporal punishments. The spankings they received were usually for things that jeopardized their safety, like trying to run into a street or put a screwdriver in an electrical outlet. But then there is my number four child. A true Dennis the Menace. We joke that we might as well start saving up his bail money now. We tried everything, and absolutely the only thing that has worked is spanking. Not spanking in the heat of the moment kind of anger. We are talking about spanking with an explanation of what he did, why it was wrong, the warnings he had received, etc... We take every opportunity to praise him when he manages to rise above his impulsive behavior, and my husband talks to him about the need to control his anger and use words. I think that if we had taken spanking off of the table, he would be a danger to himself and his siblings. Let me be clear: He has no learning disability or psychological problems. I have a child with a developmental disability, so my kids have been carefully observed by pediatricians for any signs of neurological problems. He is just a very active kid with one heck of a temper. The frequency of spankings has definitely decreased as he has gotten older, and he is responding to other punishments now. So to summarize, I think spanking has its time and place. I am not willing to toss it out of the window due to fifty years of pop-psychology.

[SKL]

When I see some of the over-emotional reactions to simple spanking like I see on this thread, I can't help but wonder. Do these folks subject their kids to this kind of drama? A spank on the butt (with an open palm) is really no big deal, unless the child has some emotional issue already. I think emotional health-wise, a matter-of-fact whack on the naturally padded hiney is more understandable and less scary than having a parent get all philosophical or emotional or religious or even contemplative over an everyday childhood offense. Good heavens, save it for when one of our daughters comes home pregnant!

[LibraryLover]

I think there have been threads like this already that have attracted tr0ll$.

 

 

I'm sure. Some replies in some threads haved sounded like tolls to me. One thing 'erotic' lit has is direct & specific language & vivid description. Nothing is left to the imagination.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[annandatje]

I'm sure. Some replies haved sounded like tolls to me. One thing 'erotic' lit has is direct & specific language, and lots of it.

 

Yes but the those replies this time around appear to be written in what would be considered a somewhat more authentic manner.

[astrid]

When I see some of the over-emotional reactions to simple spanking like I see on this thread, I can't help but wonder. Do these folks subject their kids to this kind of drama? A spank on the butt (with an open palm) is really no big deal, unless the child has some emotional issue already. I think emotional health-wise, a matter-of-fact whack on the naturally padded hiney is more understandable and less scary than having a parent get all philosophical or emotional or religious or even contemplative over an everyday childhood offense. Good heavens, save it for when one of our daughters comes home pregnant!

 

Well, that's insulting. So those of us who don't spank will have daughters who come home pregnant? Really? And you can back that up how, exactly?

 

You go ahead and smack your kids, I"ll refrain from using physical violence against mine. Good thing she knows all about birth control and how not to get pregnant, since she's destined to be the town slut and come home preggers because her parents didn't smack her.

 

Wow. My eyes cannot roll far enough.

 

astrid

[LibraryLover]

Yes but the those replies this time around appear to be written in what would be considered a somewhat more authentic manner.

 

Perhaps.

Edited August 23, 2011 by LibraryLover

[SKL]

Well, that's insulting. So those of us who don't spank will have daughters who come home pregnant? Really? And you can back that up how, exactly?

 

You go ahead and smack your kids, I"ll refrain from using physical violence against mine. Good thing she knows all about birth control and how not to get pregnant, since she's destined to be the town slut and come home preggers because her parents didn't smack her.

 

Wow. My eyes cannot roll far enough.

 

astrid

 

LOL, you might have noticed I said "one of OUR daughters." I have no idea which of our daughters will come home pregnant, nor do you. Point is, THAT would be something to get emotional about. Not the fact that someone here slapped her kid's butt for some childhood offense.