please share your "gave up on full-quiver" stories

[forty-two]

I was never qf, but I was drawn to the no bc position. Never quite sorted out how it fit in with my belief that by and large God works through means, and that includes us using our brains to make intelligent decisions - and there are certainly intelligent reasons to choose to stop having children. But I mentally tabled that, and went with no bc, figuring that at some point I'd have to decide whether I really believed in it, but for now we still planned for more, and natural spacing was working out well enough.

 

Well, it came to a head with #3 - pg became unexpectedly high risk, with lots o' monitoring, and earlyish induction, and an ICU stay for ds. And it will only get worse with each subsequent pg. Dh is *done*, and as much as I want just one more, I can't justify choosing, on purpose, to do this again.

 

But hard as it is, it makes the bc decision easy - clear medical reason to stop having kids. I believe we should be open to having kids unless there's a reason not to (rather than the modern default of preventing unless there's a reason *to* have a child), and how that plays out wrt gray areas of "reasons to stop" - is my reason intelligent or selfish? - is something I was struggling with (and is fairly individual anyway).

[twoforjoy]

I really hope I'll feel that way after #3. I so wish that we (my husband and I) will be totally in agreement. ;)

 

It took a lot of convincing to get DH on board with having a second. (Our first was an incredibly difficult baby and continues to be a pretty difficult kid.) Then he adjusted really, really well to our surprise #3.

 

I spent most of pregnancy #3 feeling like I wanted one or two more kids. DS2 was born two weeks ago, and right after the birth I felt totally done. But, that was mostly my serious dislike of pushing out babies talking.

 

Now, though, I do feel very at peace with our family remaining this size if that's what's best for us. DH and I have decided to put any permanent decisions on hold for about 3 years. I'm going to go back on the Mirena, which I used with good success between DS1 and DD, and then we'll see where we are, financially and emotionally, in a few years. Right now I feel like, if DH thinks we're in good shape for one more, I'd probably like to have one, but if he doesn't think so, that will be fine, too. I figure that numbers 1 and 2 were my idea, number 3 was neither one of our ideas, and so DH gets to make the decision about whether there will be a number 4, and I'm totally okay with that now, in a way I wasn't when we had two.

[Ginevra]

I truly have enjoyed reading this thread. :grouphug: to the many of you who have shared your stories and your losses...

 

Before I got married, I was adamant that I wanted God to plan my family. I assumed that meant just allowing God to bless us with as many children as He wanted. Dh said he was ok with that at first, but as the wedding approached he began mentioning some NFP, asking me if I would be willing to consider anything along those lines (understanding and even agreeing with my moral objections to hormonal birth control). I was so torn. I knew God had brought this man into my life, yet how could we think differently about such a great issue. I finally agreed to a counting/barrier method plan. Less than a month after we were married, I felt God strongly tell me that we were to stop planning, and trust Him. We did. I got pregnant that week. After dd1 was born, we went back to using barrier methods. When dd was about a year, I felt a stirring for another. DH was not on board. We began praying, agreed to start counting again. I got pg. When ds was about 2, I began to feel like I was ready again, but was unsure if it was me or God (I was positive the other 2 times). We prayed, but because I wasn't sure and dh wasn't "ready" we continued to prevent. I had some medical issues at the time, was scheduled for 2 surgeries, and dh and I decided after the surgery we would back off our planning and see if it truly was time. We never got that opportunity. Barrier method malfunction ;) enter #3 :tongue_smilie: God was clear that He was saying "yes," yet bc of some medical concerns, we were saying "no". He is sovereign and we are forever grateful!

I am confident that while we have not been "free" with our fertility, God has been in control every step of the way. He has planned every child and we have sought Him at every step. While I "know" this, I still struggle with the future. I trust God to tell us if and when to have another, yet I have the internal struggle of will I ever be able to say "enough"? I don't know that I could... I have had 3 c-sections and know my body will eventually have a limit. Some days our family feels complete with only 3, others I desire a houseful. I trust God will make it clear to us as He has every other time.

The heart behind QF is to allow God to plan your family. We are doing that, it just looks different. ;)

 

How do you think you would make sense of it, though, if those babies you conceived died? That is the confusion that shredded my faith. I experienced things that I believed were "God strongly telling me." It could hardly have been more plain if a hand had written it on the wall. But the babies I conceived while I believed I was very specifically doing what God was asking died, one at term, one at 8 weeks pg. That is what I can't understand. That is what will never add up for me. If I was trusting God to bring life according to His plan and it ended up in heartbreak, what is the point of that?

[Ipsey]

I haven't read the thread yet...I hope to go back and read it all tonight.

 

It makes me sad when someone's faith is so tied up in QF that they can't let QF go without deserting the faith. Yours isn't the first case that I've heard of like that. I'm not intending to express pity, just sorrow that what I believe to be a misunderstanding of God's Word can have such far-reaching consequences.

 

I objected to birth control (somewhat) from the beginning, but came to see it as a moral issue when I was due to have my first. She came from a Bill Gothard background and believed that my womb was the Lord's to open and close as He wills, without interference from me (she wasn't married at the time). I was easily influenced by this friend and shortly thereafter delved into some reading on the subject and became fully convinced that God's will was for me to use no birth control.

 

I challenged my husband on the subject. I invited him to share which Scriptures supported his point of view, and I would share mine (he wisely declined my "invitation"). I conceded to his desire to use NFP, believing it wasn't God's best for us.

 

All of that changed after we had our 3rd. Suddenly, it was clear to me that we were letting biology lead, not God. It wasn't God's perfect will for us to have 3 kids in under 3 years, and it was taking a serious toll on my emotional well-being. However, I still felt that our family wasn't finished (DH was fine with that) so we stuck with NFP. Through all of this I had concerns (and still do) about chemical birth control methods, as I believe that many will cause the body to reject a fertilized egg before implantation. I got pregnant with #4 and before the delivery, DH had a vasectomy.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with a family deciding, for whatever reason, not to use birth control. But I do not believe it is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith, nor do I believe it is a blanket command that God gives all Christians. Children are a blessing from the Lord, and the man whose quiver is full is blessed, but that doesn't dictate a certain number, or even mindset, other than that children are a blessing.

 

Please don't feel bad for me. Leaving Christianity and Jesus/God was one of the best things I ever did. It wasn't terribly wrapped up in QF. I knew QF was not a mainstream part of Christianity, and it wasn't that big a deal to me. It fell by the wayside much earlier than my actual faith did.

 

What led to the destruction of my faith mostly concerned the inconsistencies found in the Bible. That's all. :) Not a misunderstanding, just comparing gospels and some OT with NT and finding there were errors and discrepancies. Maybe my misunderstanding was believing that the Bible was inerrant. Whatever. . . it doesn't matter so much to me anymore.

 

As I cut my final links, really, I can look back a little more dispassionately and try to understand how my faith affected every part of my life (some for positive and some for negative) and come to grips with that.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Ipsey
deleting rogue quotation marks :)

[LittleIzumi]

How do you think you would make sense of it, though, if those babies you conceived died? That is the confusion that shredded my faith. I experienced things that I believed were "God strongly telling me." It could hardly have been more plain if a hand had written it on the wall. But the babies I conceived while I believed I was very specifically doing what God was asking died, one at term, one at 8 weeks pg. That is what I can't understand. That is what will never add up for me. If I was trusting God to bring life according to His plan and it ended up in heartbreak, what is the point of that?

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I believe we were sent here to learn & grow, and we grow best through trials. If life was easy we'd have no reason to grow & change, really. I am not QF, but I have experienced many miscarriages, and I know many people who have lost a child. The huge losses cause a definite change in people, either bringing them much closer to God or causing them to doubt God. It does absolutely force a change & a close examination of faith that otherwise would never happen. It also gives us great empathy that we have no other way to gain. I do also believe that those babies I lost are with God, and that I will meet them someday. I do know other religions have different viewpoints on these things, so I'm not sure exactly how you feel about these aspects. That is the point I see in loss, though. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: to you.

[cathmom]

I remember reading about the couple who wrote "Open Embrace" back when it first came out. My thought then was that they were very young. Now, in reading the article linked above, I see that their decisions don't seem to be grounded in anything - moving to TN because of a song, etc.

 

I am not surprised by their story. Real life interferes with cosy dreams of large families, and if your beliefs are not rooted in something stable, it becomes very easy to change your beliefs to suit your new reality.

 

As a faithful-to-the-Magisterium Catholic, I do believe that artificial birth control is a sin. I believe that the default stance should be to be open to conception unless a couple has a serious reason not to be. When they have a serious reason, complete abstinence or NFP are the only acceptable options. I do not buy the rosy assurances of the Couple-to-Couple League that NFP is "marriage-building." It is what it is. I used to belong to CCL and even supported them through donations until I realized that they did not necessarily speak for the Catholic Church and saw that their stances on some issues were very questionable.

 

:grouphug: to all who have suffered losses! I have had 3 miscarriages and they were very emotionally and physically painful. One nearly killed me. :grouphug:

[Ginevra]

I remember reading about the couple who wrote "Open Embrace" back when it first came out. My thought then was that they were very young. Now, in reading the article linked above, I see that their decisions don't seem to be grounded in anything - moving to TN because of a song, etc.

 

I am not surprised by their story. Real life interferes with cosy dreams of large families, and if your beliefs are not rooted in something stable, it becomes very easy to change your beliefs to suit your new reality.

 

As a faithful-to-the-Magisterium Catholic, I do believe that artificial birth control is a sin. I believe that the default stance should be to be open to conception unless a couple has a serious reason not to be. When they have a serious reason, complete abstinence or NFP are the only acceptable options. I do not buy the rosy assurances of the Couple-to-Couple League that NFP is "marriage-building." It is what it is. I used to belong to CCL and even supported them through donations until I realized that they did not necessarily speak for the Catholic Church and saw that their stances on some issues were very questionable.

 

:grouphug: to all who have suffered losses! I have had 3 miscarriages and they were very emotionally and physically painful. One nearly killed me. :grouphug:

 

I would like to know more about the bolded. If you'd rather PM me, that would be fine, too. I am not Catholic, but when I originally began to embrace being open to life, it was through a tape from CCL and/or The Mary Foundation.

 

 

To the OP, or interested others, when my mind started to change about all life being planned by God, I saw a documentary that really made a difference in my thinking. It was about the phenomenon called Parasitic Twins. This is an instance, usually through conjoining, where an incompletely formed "baby" is attached to its twin. The only options with parasitic twinning are to abort (before birth) or "remove" (kill, after birth) the incomplete "baby" that could not be viable on its own or let the viable baby die when the parasitic twin dies or abort both. In the documentary, parasitic twins were born where the "second baby" was only the head, conjoined to the other baby. The nurses reported that the malformed "baby" behaved as a distinct person; it slept or responded separately from the fully-formed baby. Yet, the parasite had to be removed if the parents wanted any hope of having one living baby.

 

If God orchestrated such things, WHY would He? No - this is merely biology gone badly wrong. A good God would not create parasitic twinning.

[Mommyfaithe]

I think there was a time in my life where I thought I had a grip on everything....I knew I was in God's will, I knew I was following the "correct path.. you kwim....

 

Then....I became chronically ill...I lost babies...I lost parents....my older kids were ....welll, not perfect, my youngest was and is a very high needs but gifted child...My kids needed me...my sick parents needed me...my extended family needed me. I had VERY difficult pregnancies...and difficult , bed-ridden losses.

 

I grew up. I matured and realized life is not about the figuring out or being RIGHT and perfect. Or about having perfect kids or a healthy body.

 

It is more about loving and having the grace to admit you really don't know a lot of stuff.:D I REALLY DON'T know a lot of stuff.

 

I love my Lord, my husband, my kids....but I am so done.

 

If God loves me...and I am pretty sure He does, then He knows I am flesh and blood...He knows my fabric...and He knows that I did, and am doing as well as I can with what He has given me.

 

I know many, many families who were "QF" and are not now due to health reasons, financial reasons, emotional reasons. I don't think I was ever "quiverfull" but I can cite all of those reasons....I was open to have more children prior to my last one. I prayed for them and suffered loss between... I am now moving into the Grandma stage...yep...that sounds much nicer :D

Faithe

[Ria]

I used to be on a QF message board, and what I read there began to seriously disturb me. There were moms there who had 8 or more kids and were on welfare, yet they continued to have children. God (via the state) provided, evidently. That didn't sit well with me.

 

As for us, we lost a set of twins at 21 weeks. We went on to have a second set of twins, followed by four more children. The first six were conceived via fertility drugs, the last two just happened naturally. We were thrilled and decided we'd jump right into the QF mindset. Then I miscarried at 8 weeks, had a nasty life-threatening bout with peritonitis (due to Crohn's disease that only flared when I was pregnant) and was told another pregnancy could kill me.

 

I wanted more kids because I was happy in the QF mindset...but the reality was that I was very tired, had 6 kids under 9, and really couldn't do it all. Dh got a v. I mourned a bit, but it was more the mourning of a perceived lifestyle (my idealized perfect QF world where all kids are perfect, help their siblings, mom is never tired, the house is clean, etc) than my reality. Once I came to grips with reality I realized that we couldn't handle any more children even if I could have carried them. We were at capacity. :)

 

I am blessed. I have six children. I still feel very uncomfortable about people having more and more children without the financial means to care for them. Maybe that makes me judgmental. It's a sticky subject.

[cathmom]

I would like to know more about the bolded. If you'd rather PM me, that would be fine, too. I am not Catholic, but when I originally began to embrace being open to life, it was through a tape from CCL and/or The Mary Foundation.

 

 

 

 

Re CCL: I can't remember when I first heard of CCL. It was really soon after we got married, perhaps in some literature we received at our pre-Cana weekend or something like that.

 

In any case, I began learning NFP through CCL and joined the organization. I got their magazine for quite a while (a decade). CCL is very dogmatic about the practice of NFP. I constantly read how the dh was supposed to be involved, ideally taking his wife's temp every morning, interpreting the chart together, etc. I even fantasized about becoming a teaching couple. Eventually I realized that my dh didn't even want to talk about MY cycle, let alone discuss other women's. But just as I have read of women being disappointed because their dh didn't reach some standard set by someone else, I was disappointed. He was totally on board with using NFP, he just didn't want to know the details.

 

So, we were a faithful Catholic couple following Church teachings, and I felt like we weren't doing things right because we weren't doing them the "CCL way."

 

Then, there was the emphasis on "ecological breastfeeding" and how if you do it right, you should have a year of no periods and no fertility. Except it doesn't work that way in my body! With my second dc (the first I nursed), it came back at 5 months pp. Then I was tandem-nursing the 2nd and the 3rd and it came back at 8 months pp with ovulation before. Even when I was completely, exclusively nursing my twins, it came back at 3 months pp! So here's the second thing that somehow I'm just not doing right, even though I'm following all the "rules."

 

CCL teaches an attachment parenting style as well. I remember a letter from a mom who was just desperate, 3 dc, the oldest about 7, and he just wouldn't listen to her. She was exhausted! She asked the readers of the magazine for advice and they were all pretty wishy-washy, things like "understand him better" etc. I lean AP quite a bit (nurse on cue, wean when they're ready, don't leave little dc, don't spank, etc), but my dc know who their parents are and they have to respect us! The woman was heading for a nervous breakdown and it seemed like no one could see it because it might interfere with their beliefs.

 

Then dh and I began exploring some of the teachings in The Art of Natural Family Planning that the Kippleys wrote, and now I could see that when I first read it, I read it as though it were an encyclical from the Pope, not as though it was the Kippleys' opinions on things and what worked for them. One specific thing I remember discussing was their stance that couples should just give each other a chaste kiss and hug during the fertile period if they were avoiding pregnancy. However, there really is no reason to do so. It's not a sin for a married couple to be intimate, as long as certain lines are not crossed. And if they decide to go ahead and make love, well, then I guess their reasons for avoiding were not serious enough to make them want to stop.

 

As for their claim that NFP is marriage-building because it enhances communication and helps each of them respect the other person, I suppose it could be true. But in my marriage, I haven't felt like NFP makes a difference one way or the other. I would actually say that it leans a bit toward the negative side because of its interference in marital relations (for example, what if your anniversary falls during the fertile period and you have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy? Or what if you need a weekend getaway and it is not possible to plan it during a non-fertile time? etc).

 

In addition, they are very specific about how NFP should be practiced, how you should chart it, etc, which is fine when one is learning the system, but after a woman's been using it for a while, she may develop her own shortcuts, as I have. However, one time I called their helpline to ask a specific question, and was berated for several minutes by a male volunteer for not keeping my chart properly! That was an uncomfortable situation for me! I believe it was about not taking my temp at the same time every day - see, if my dh would just take my temp when he got up for work, that wouldn't have happened! LOL!

 

At this point, I felt I could no longer support their organization, so I stopped. I am grateful for Marilyn Shannon, who gave their nutritional advice for years. Her advice allowed me to recover from my second miscarriage, which was nearly fatal from loss of blood. My total adherence to LLL/CCL's views had led to nutritional depletion during tandem nursing, which led to 2 miscarriages 7 months apart (also during tandem nursing). I used her advice and built my body back up (also cured my horrible eczema!) and then about 4 years after the m/c, we conceived again and had a healthy baby, then went on to have 3 more.

 

Probably more than you ever wanted to know about my opinion of CCL! :tongue_smilie:

Edited August 15, 2011 by cathmom

[Ria]

Eventually I realized that my dh didn't even want to talk about MY cycle, let alone discuss other women's.

 

I enjoyed reading your post, but I have to say, this just cracked me up!

[cathmom]

I enjoyed reading your post, but I have to say, this just cracked me up!

 

Thanks! It was a real "duh" moment for me LOL! :lol:

[Aelwydd]

I love that NYT article. I've often wished that secular Christianity was as common and accepted as secular Judaism.

 

It would be amazing to take part in a congregation dedicated to embracing and living the best of Jesus and his acceptance. Certainly his words, deeds, thoughts are lessons enough. Imagine a united and loving relgion without the wasted time spent on the hating of gay marraige, closed wombs, tank tops etc. Screaming about sin is not the same as encouraging care & love. I've read the parables, I've read the bible ('NT', in this case) and I just do not see how the words of Jesus jibes with any the flaming pastoral condemnation of all humanity that is most often spouted by the likes of the Jim Bakers and the many other hypocrites we've seen fall so hard. (And I certainly put the Jessop, Haggard, Jim Jones etc tragedies in that category.)

 

More Jesus, Less Religion.

 

Sign me up.

[GTJo1996]

Can I just say WOW! You ladies are intelligent, well-spoken researchers. I am excited to see thoughtful, non-judgmental responses and information from both sides of the QF issue. I have truly learned a lot from reading this thread!

[Greenmama2]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I believe we were sent here to learn & grow, and we grow best through trials. If life was easy we'd have no reason to grow & change, really. I am not QF, but I have experienced many miscarriages, and I know many people who have lost a child. The huge losses cause a definite change in people, either bringing them much closer to God or causing them to doubt God. It does absolutely force a change & a close examination of faith that otherwise would never happen. It also gives us great empathy that we have no other way to gain. I do also believe that those babies I lost are with God, and that I will meet them someday. I do know other religions have different viewpoints on these things, so I'm not sure exactly how you feel about these aspects. That is the point I see in loss, though. to you.

I agree in a way. I'm not quiverful although I'm intrigued with the idea, I can't be as I'm Buddhist.

I'm sorry for your loss mama. It hurts. I actually think there's nothing harder in life than losing a baby. But maybe I'm still getting over my losses ;)

I'm glad you clarified that it wasn't what caused you to leave the church though. As I said, I agree with Little Izumi that we are all here to learn. Unfortunately some of those lessons are HARD :(

[butterflymommy]

:) hi... I too used to be more religious than I currently am. I'm not an atheist, but I sometimes tiptoe into agnostic-ish territory. I was not officially quiverful but I believed in the notion of no birth control, or at least, being open to children if you want to have sex. Somehow in my mind it seemed dangerous to divorce the procreative aspect of sex with the pleasure aspect of it.

 

I've now been pregnant for 13 months straight. I am due with my 7th child, god willing, in october. I got pregnant immediately after a second trimester loss. The physical and emotional toll on me has been significant. For the first time in my life I'm seriously considering never doing this again. I don't know if my body can keep enduring this-- I have severe varicositis in one leg when I am pregnant and am risk for a blood clot. Right now all I can manage to do is eat, sleep, and do basic chores. I feel like I'm not living-- I'm just being pregnant.

 

I just don't know what my beliefs are re: BC anymore, or "being open" to more children. :confused:

[Caterpiller]

I've never been quiverfull but I admit I want as many kids as God will give me. So far that has been the ripe number of... 1. I had her when I was 20. I have been off of birth control since she was 9 months but haven't had another pregnancy and have had some cycle issues. She is turning 5 in Novemeber. I am comming to understand I may not have any more children, and If thats the case then I am blessed with my one.

 

When I was younger I always wanted 5 kids. Dh said 2... so I said 4! DH said 2... so I said 3??? DH said 2. lol I do believe that every baby is a blessing and a gift from God though I know that bad things happen to children and babies, those lives were still precious and had meaning though I may not understand it now.

 

When it comes to religion it is easy to get swept up in peoples ideas about what is right and what isn't right. I have found I am easily influenced when I let myself be especially when certain subjects SEEM to fit. But when I come back down to Earth I have to remind myself that I shouldn't be seeking ideals from other people because people are flawed and often skew the Word to mean what they want it to mean. I should be doing my own research and relying on God to lead my heart and do the best that I can with the Word of God.

 

Oh, I meant to add that I don't believe in hormonal birth control for myself.

[Ipsey]

:) hi... I too used to be more religious than I currently am. I'm not an atheist, but I sometimes tiptoe into agnostic-ish territory. I was not officially quiverful but I believed in the notion of no birth control, or at least, being open to children if you want to have sex. Somehow in my mind it seemed dangerous to divorce the procreative aspect of sex with the pleasure aspect of it.

 

I've now been pregnant for 13 months straight. I am due with my 7th child, god willing, in october. I got pregnant immediately after a second trimester loss. The physical and emotional toll on me has been significant. For the first time in my life I'm seriously considering never doing this again. I don't know if my body can keep enduring this-- I have severe varicositis in one leg when I am pregnant and am risk for a blood clot. Right now all I can manage to do is eat, sleep, and do basic chores. I feel like I'm not living-- I'm just being pregnant.

 

I just don't know what my beliefs are re: BC anymore, or "being open" to more children. :confused:

 

Hug!

Whew, hang in there. Take some time for you. Maybe you could just . . . do what you can live with for a while regarding not getting preggers for a little bit, just to be able to recover and see things through for a while. Exhaustion, and emotional fatigue never contribute well to long-term decision making. I hope you recover strongly enough to enjoy this week one when she or he comes along. You don't have to decide anything right now. . .except whether you should have chocolate or vanilla ice cream for dinner ;)

[macpuffins]

... I had some very insensitive things said to me, including "You must be harboring sin. If you would just confess I am sure GOd will heal your body and allow you to have children."

 

My goodness does this resonate w/ me! I've been very profoundly wounded spiritually by a couple of congregations that threw that in my face, not just about fertility, but other health issues. We are now in a much healthier congregation that supports and loves us *just as we are*! I *so* get how one's beliefs and opinions change through time based on experiences, and that does not negate what we believed at first. It just means that with a bit more life under our belts, our realities have changed.

My husband and I had no problem w/ BC at the beginning as I was in grad school and he was finishing his Engineering degree. Once that was all done & over, other things came into play, and even without BC (except for a couple times when I was not *allowed* to get pregnant for significant health reasons), it took us until almost 17yrs into our marriage to get a pregnancy that 'stuck'. I had a m/c the year previous that was just horrid, plus one in grad school which was no picnic either. We had initially wanted 4-5 children (not necessarily a QF, but certainly into extended-mini-van territory).

 

It was a difficult pregnancy for the 1st trimester, as I was bleeding, verging on hemorrhaging, until 14wks, and because of 'advanced maternal age (I was 42)', I had a lot of monitoring, etc. I didn't even really strike me as 'real' until 20-21 weeks and I felt her move. I figured I was just one of those women consigned to not getting a child no matter what. My L&D weren't exactly standard-issue in many ways, but not anything significantly out of the norm until AFTER MissB was born. Losing over 1/2 my blood volume in a non-completely-unexpected problem was a bit rough on hubby who was left in a blood-filled room after they wheeled me off for surgery to remove the placenta. Yeah, I was up & around 24 hours later! I have a habit of bouncing back like rubber.

 

MissB was born just after our 17.5 anniv, and is currently a very inquisitive & energetic 2.5yrs old. We would dearly love to have another child, even knowing what we know and knowing what I've already been through with the first one, and realizing I was fortunate in how well the eventualities were planned for, and enacted. Considering my mother had me at 46yrs4.5mo of age, I do understand a lot of the issues w/ older motherhood. And in our family, late menopause is common, not the exception (my mom was 55 when she finally stopped cycling normally - because of radiation for cancer treatment), the the window of opportunity isn't closed like it has for a few of my friends.

[Aelwydd]

Well, as the mom of an only child, I never got into the QF mindset. I briefly flirted with the idea of as many as 4 kids; but, I ultimately came to the conclusion that it would be a bad idea for us to have that many kids.

 

I'm not sure what heading my beliefs belong to. I used hormonal BC before I got married for a mild case of endometriosis, but hated the effects it had on my mood and weight. After ds was born, I was lucky that the pregnancy apparently arrested the condition, because aside from a few twinges every month, I don't experience that pain anymore.

 

However, I still disliked hormonal BC, due to my negative experience, and neither I nor dh liked other barrier methods. So, that meant NFP and withdrawal, which has worked.

 

But, I don't support NFP in the sense of a lot of people, who seem to use it as the poster child for the religious family that wants to space out children, but without the guilt attending other "sinful" methods of BC.

 

I'm a (liberal) Christian, but I'll tell you where my ethical lines are drawn on this issue. Many other Christians will talk about how BC might stop a fertilized egg from implanting, and thus end human life, and on some level, I'm not thrilled with it either. I'm not thrilled with abortion at all, but I tolerate it as a necessary evil.

 

Because, what bothers me more than these issues? Are the thousands of kids dying the world over from lack of food and other basic necessities. And what it comes down to for me is this: every child I bring into the world equals fewer resources for those other people, and their children.

 

So, when I heard the religious argument from folks in church that "you should trust God to provide," I wanted to scream, "Like we're trusting God to take care of the poor elsewhere? Like we pretend the standard of living we enjoy isn't a due to the exploitation of other nations?"

 

I hope you understand my point. I believe the number of kids a family has is their personal decision. But, I feel that QF is actually more of a cultural phenomenon, predicated on American exceptionalism and American civic religion, than it is based on new testament ethics. That's why I rejected its ideals, and why I still find it one of the more noxious movements among conservative Christians. IMO, it may end up turning out more agnostics and angry ex-Christians in the end, than it will righteous progeny.

[Ipsey]

 

Because, what bothers me more than these issues? Are the thousands of kids dying the world over from lack of food and other basic necessities. And what it comes down to for me is this: every child I bring into the world equals fewer resources for those other people, and their children.

 

So, when I heard the religious argument from folks in church that "you should trust God to provide," I wanted to scream, "Like we're trusting God to take care of the poor elsewhere? Like we pretend the standard of living we enjoy isn't a due to the exploitation of other nations?"

 

I hope you understand my point. I believe the number of kids a family has is their personal decision. But, I feel that QF is actually more of a cultural phenomenon, predicated on American exceptionalism and American civic religion, than it is based on new testament ethics. That's why I rejected its ideals, and why I still find it one of the more noxious movements among conservative Christians. IMO, it may end up turning out more agnostics and angry ex-Christians in the end, than it will righteous progeny.

 

Ohh, excellent. ". . . Like we're trusting God to take care of the poor elsewhere."

 

I've nearly nodded myself to a whiplash.

[LittleIzumi]

Oddly enough, I'm not QF but I have a strong... hesitation when it comes to sterility. I do NOT feel led to have a QF family--I feel strongly like we should stop after two more, and have felt that way for years. But I need to figure out how I'm going to stop then, since hormonal BC doesn't agree with me. Dh knows what he wants to do (V) but I have to wrap my brain around it. It almost feels like I *should* be QF, even though I do not feel like it is my path to have that many children and it is not part of my religion, etc. Like if we go for a V that it's somehow wrong, although I *know* it's not. My brain is weird. :tongue_smilie:

[Jyniffrec]

I'm not sure I could have convinced myself it was okay to stop having children if we hadn't had devastating things happen to us. I've never done well with pregnancy and when I was miserably pregnant with #4 dd3 got very sick. In the end we found out it was so bad that it will likely end in transplant and things have been very, very sketchy for her at times. During all that I wanted to forget I was pregnant but I was getting sicker and sicker. It turns out DD4 has a rare metabolic disorder and she was draining everything I had out of me. When people ask me if we are going to have more I ask them, "Do you think it would be responsible for us to have more?". The answer is always "no". Both of our girls' problems are genetic (as in a 1 in 4 chance for one of them) and having more children would literally be rolling the dice.

 

And then there are the other children - in our case the ones who aren't sick but who still need us to love them, spend time with them and educate them. We had a doctor criticize Paul (Father of Pearl) for not supporting me enough while I was pregnant and dd3 was inpatient. Paul looked at him incredulously and pointed at the other two kids and said, "I have to take care of them!".

 

Children who have sick siblings often grow up bitter and feeling estranged from their families.

 

I can't and won't judge other people for their decisions. I also can't imagine God condemning me for not having another baby.

[Ginevra]

 

When it comes to religion it is easy to get swept up in peoples ideas about what is right and what isn't right. I have found I am easily influenced when I let myself be especially when certain subjects SEEM to fit. But when I come back down to Earth I have to remind myself that I shouldn't be seeking ideals from other people because people are flawed and often skew the Word to mean what they want it to mean. I should be doing my own research and relying on God to lead my heart and do the best that I can with the Word of God.

 

Tread lightly, here. It's not as though I heard of "The Quiverful movement" and thought, "Wow! That sounds great! I want a family just like the Duggars!" When I came to my earlier views about b/c, I didn't even know there was such a term as QF. I didn't even know there were such people as the Duggars or any like them. I heard a tape by The Mary Foundation, urging Catholics (of which I'm not) to be open to life - no sterilization or hormonal b/c. They promoted NFP (see Cathmom's post). From there, I made the mental leap that if b/c was thwarting God's will, so was NFP, so my thinking went along with the QF view before I even knew there was such a thing. Some of the things that happened were (I believed at the time) quite surely God leading my heart and confirming it in amazing ways.

 

I point this out only because I'm sure that many people who go the QF direction do so because they believe God is leading them to it. Not because they saw a TV show about a big, happy family and thought that sounded like fun. Not because they's swept up with man's ideas and blindly follow along.

 

Re CCL:

 

Probably more than you ever wanted to know about my opinion of CCL! :tongue_smilie:

 

Cathmom, nope. Thanks for the review. :001_smile:

 

 

Because, what bothers me more than these issues? Are the thousands of kids dying the world over from lack of food and other basic necessities. And what it comes down to for me is this: every child I bring into the world equals fewer resources for those other people, and their children.

 

So, when I heard the religious argument from folks in church that "you should trust God to provide," I wanted to scream, "Like we're trusting God to take care of the poor elsewhere? Like we pretend the standard of living we enjoy isn't a due to the exploitation of other nations?"

 

I understand your heart for the poor in the world and it is great that we have people like you to care about their plight. But I see the bolded portion through different eyes and want to point out the other side of this equation. I see every child I bring into the world as equalling greater potential to help those in need. I see children born into the privilege of standard American life as having potential to extend resources to those who lack them. It takes people to carry out compassionate acts, to gather resources to give to those who lack them. The fewer people born to "privilege," the fewer people able to assist those underprivileged.

 

YMMV, however.

[coffeefreak]

Thank you for the reminder. I'm sure we're all grown-ups enough to take these matters into account when we're posting personal stories.

 

a good place to go for this support is nolongerquivering.com. :001_smile:

[silliness7]

How do you think you would make sense of it, though, if those babies you conceived died? That is the confusion that shredded my faith. I experienced things that I believed were "God strongly telling me." It could hardly have been more plain if a hand had written it on the wall. But the babies I conceived while I believed I was very specifically doing what God was asking died, one at term, one at 8 weeks pg. That is what I can't understand. That is what will never add up for me. If I was trusting God to bring life according to His plan and it ended up in heartbreak, what is the point of that?

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I have not experience your pain. And I certainly don't want to sound like I understand. Because I do not. But I weep with you. My heart just breaks reading your story. I wanted to share that recently I was at a funeral for a baby that died minutes after birth quite unexpectedly. Our pastor said something, speaking to the parents. He said something like, don't ever underestimate the impact that your son had on the world. He impacted you and your immediate family and your extended family. Your medical team, your friends and everyone sitting in this sanctuary. He may not have lived to a ripe old age as is everyone's hope and expectation with new life. God never promises that. But even though his life was only minutes, it wasn't a waste.

 

Well I was bawling my eyes out. I seriously can't understand the pain. And I don't know if those words comforted the parents sitting there. *I* felt comforted but the loss wasn't personal for me, obviously. So I'm just putting that out there and maybe I shouldn't since I haven't experienced it myself. I'm so very sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

 

Come to think of it though the pastor who spoke those words experienced the same kind of loss. So I guess that's why his words really impacted me as I sit here thinking about it. Sad, sad, day. :crying::crying:

[Renee in NC]

I think there was a time in my life where I thought I had a grip on everything....I knew I was in God's will, I knew I was following the "correct path.. you kwim....

 

I grew up. I matured and realized life is not about the figuring out or being RIGHT and perfect. Or about having perfect kids or a healthy body.

 

It is more about loving and having the grace to admit you really don't know a lot of stuff.:D I REALLY DON'T know a lot of stuff.

 

I love my Lord, my husband, my kids....but I am so done.

 

If God loves me...and I am pretty sure He does, then He knows I am flesh and blood...He knows my fabric...and He knows that I did, and am doing as well as I can with what He has given me.

 

I know many, many families who were "QF" and are not now due to health reasons, financial reasons, emotional reasons. I don't think I was ever "quiverfull" but I can cite all of those reasons....I was open to have more children prior to my last one. I prayed for them and suffered loss between... I am now moving into the Grandma stage...yep...that sounds much nicer :D

Faithe

 

I think I would fall here. I guess I was QF in the sense that we were going to have the dc that God wanted us to have. However, the financial problems of the past years, my dc's problems, the homeschooling, all of it - it was just too much. I've been thinking a lot about this lately - we aren't planning to have anymore and part of me is really sad about that. I want to go back to those days when everything seemed so easy.;) We'd have whatever children came our way.

 

I said something to my SIL about not having more because we couldn't afford it and she said something like, "Babies don't cost that much - what's one more?" I had to laugh because *I* said that to someone when I was young, too. Now I know better - that resources are more than financial and they do grow up and need things you NEVER thought about (speech therapy? OT? for what?;)) In different circumstances maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but I live in my life with my circumstances and the financial and emotional resources just aren't there.

 

I told dh that if we won Powerball then I would have 3 more. First he pointed out that to win Powerball you actually have to play. :lol: Then he asked me if I was going to divorce him and marry someone else.:tongue_smilie:

 

I've also seen the toll being QF can have on older children. I don't want to burden the dc I have, either. We all have to make choices about what is best for everyone involved.

 

I still believe children are a blessing and not a burden. I just feel really strongly that we shouldn't have anymore if we can't afford to care for them without help. However, I know that sometimes things happen (NFP only here) and it is particularly difficult here as my dh does not think artificial bc is a sin.

 

Neither position is easy. All I can do is pray.

[BamaTanya]

 

I said something to my SIL about not having more because we couldn't afford it and she said something like, "Babies don't cost that much - what's one more?" I had to laugh because *I* said that to someone when I was young, too. Now I know better - that resources are more than financial and they do grow up and need things you NEVER thought about (speech therapy? OT? for what?;)) In different circumstances maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but I live in my life with my circumstances and the financial and emotional resources just aren't there.

 

 

 

Boy, do you sound like me! I remember when we were younger parents and figuring out a budget so I could quit work and stay home with our 3 babies. I remember the "medical" heading in the budget and thinking, "Our copay is only $20. How often will we need to see a dr after the first few months (of a baby's life)?"

 

I could not have imagined the PT costs twice a week (partially covered by insurance) and numerous daily prescriptions (partially covered) and the $1100 dental bill we're still paying on from December when *only* 2 of the 5 had any dental work but *I* had a broken filling, too . . . And behavioral therapists and counseling. And tutors. And we're just about to begin the third round of braces (not covered).

 

Cribs and highchairs can be handed down. But each new blessing, especially those with medical or mental special needs, have individual expenses that can't be retained for the next younger one.

 

Yes, they're all blessings. I just overestimated how healthy they would be and underestimated our costs.

 

Of course, this could happen to parents with one dc as well. Parents of smaller families are not immune to unanticipated expenses or medical issues.

 

I do miss those naive days sometimes . . . when I happily fed my babes cheap br**stmilk and hung cloth diapers on the line in the sunshine . . .

[Renee in NC]

Boy, do you sound like me! I remember when we were younger parents and figuring out a budget so I could quit work and stay home with our 3 babies. I remember the "medical" heading in the budget and thinking, "Our copay is only $20. How often will we need to see a dr after the first few months (of a baby's life)?"

 

I could not have imagined the PT costs twice a week (partially covered by insurance) and numerous daily prescriptions (partially covered) and the $1100 dental bill we're still paying on from December when *only* 2 of the 5 had any dental work but *I* had a broken filling, too . . . And behavioral therapists and counseling. And tutors. And we're just about to begin the third round of braces (not covered).

 

Cribs and highchairs can be handed down. But each new blessing, especially those with medical or mental special needs, have individual expenses that can't be retained for the next younger one.

 

Yes, they're all blessings. I just overestimated how healthy they would be and underestimated our costs.

 

Of course, this could happen to parents with one dc as well. Parents of smaller families are not immune to unanticipated expenses or medical issues.

 

I do miss those naive days sometimes . . . when I happily fed my babes cheap br**stmilk and hung cloth diapers on the line in the sunshine . . .

 

:lol: To be so naive again, ya know? I love my dc and do not regret having any of them. I just want to make sure that I don't have to keep spreading the "wealth" (financial, emotional, mental, temporal, etc.) thinner and thinner every 18 months to 2 years.....it isn't fair to the ones already born.

[KungFuPanda]

Oddly enough, I'm not QF but I have a strong... hesitation when it comes to sterility. I do NOT feel led to have a QF family--I feel strongly like we should stop after two more, and have felt that way for years. But I need to figure out how I'm going to stop then, since hormonal BC doesn't agree with me. Dh knows what he wants to do (V) but I have to wrap my brain around it. It almost feels like I *should* be QF, even though I do not feel like it is my path to have that many children and it is not part of my religion, etc. Like if we go for a V that it's somehow wrong, although I *know* it's not. My brain is weird. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

A little OT, but there ARE non-hormonal IUDs that last for 10 years. Not that I believe you don't know about them, but when people list their reasons for not wanting to use hormonal BC, they rarely list their objections to copper IUDs.

[Renee in NC]

A little OT, but there ARE non-hormonal IUDs that last for 10 years. Not that I believe you don't know about them, but when people list their reasons for not wanting to use hormonal BC, they rarely list their objections to copper IUDs.

 

Aside from it being artificial bc, IUDs don't necessarily stop conception, just implantation. I know that they also work to stop conception, but that isn't guaranteed.

[Sparkle]

I'm not sure I could have convinced myself it was okay to stop having children if we hadn't had devastating things happen to us. I've never done well with pregnancy and when I was miserably pregnant with #4 dd3 got very sick. In the end we found out it was so bad that it will likely end in transplant and things have been very, very sketchy for her at times. During all that I wanted to forget I was pregnant but I was getting sicker and sicker. It turns out DD4 has a rare metabolic disorder and she was draining everything I had out of me. When people ask me if we are going to have more I ask them, "Do you think it would be responsible for us to have more?". The answer is always "no". Both of our girls' problems are genetic (as in a 1 in 4 chance for one of them) and having more children would literally be rolling the dice.

 

And then there are the other children - in our case the ones who aren't sick but who still need us to love them, spend time with them and educate them. We had a doctor criticize Paul (Father of Pearl) for not supporting me enough while I was pregnant and dd3 was inpatient. Paul looked at him incredulously and pointed at the other two kids and said, "I have to take care of them!".

 

Children who have sick siblings often grow up bitter and feeling estranged from their families.

 

I can't and won't judge other people for their decisions. I also can't imagine God condemning me for not having another baby.

 

:grouphug: I can sympathize with your point of view very closely.

 

We used to be an NFP couple. We aren't any more, for a number of reasons. I think when I try to follow the "Law" too closely I end up Pharisiacal, and there's not much room for grace to operate in me. I actually think I am a better Christian, dh and I have a better marriage and my kids have a better momma when we are not trying to use NFP.

[Aelwydd]

I understand your heart for the poor in the world and it is great that we have people like you to care about their plight. But I see the bolded portion through different eyes and want to point out the other side of this equation. I see every child I bring into the world as equalling greater potential to help those in need. I see children born into the privilege of standard American life as having potential to extend resources to those who lack them. It takes people to carry out compassionate acts, to gather resources to give to those who lack them. The fewer people born to "privilege," the fewer people able to assist those underprivileged.

 

YMMV, however.

 

Quill, out of respect for the OP's wish not to have this turned into a debate, I'm not going to argue with you over your perception.

 

I did say in my post that my choice is due to where I drew my ethical lines. The bottom line for me is this: Americans owe their standard of living to businesses, and government policies, that regularly take resources from other countries, to sustain our way of life. That is fact.

 

The best way we can help other peoples, is to stop using other peoples' commodities. I can't be unborn, and I can't begrudge others who are already here. But, I won't pretend that my desire to have more children should be morally justified before the needs of others.

[Aelwydd]

Ohh, excellent. ". . . Like we're trusting God to take care of the poor elsewhere."

 

I've nearly nodded myself to a whiplash.

 

Yeah, the images from Somalia--I can barely watch them. I've decided to tell ds when he gets older, that I don't need him to give me grand children. If he gets married and wants to have them, great. But I don't expect them, and I won't ask for them.

 

What I want for him is to find happiness in helping and caring for others. That's the best legacy I could ever hope for.

[Free]

Because, what bothers me more than these issues? Are the thousands of kids dying the world over from lack of food and other basic necessities. And what it comes down to for me is this: every child I bring into the world equals fewer resources for those other people, and their children.

 

Being an Indian, I agree with this sentiment. Most educated Indians limit their family sizes willingly to one or two kids. It is considered irresponsible to have more than that. It was a big surprise to me, when I first came into these forums to know that many Westerners feel no such compunctions.

[cathmom]

:lol: To be so naive again, ya know? I love my dc and do not regret having any of them. I just want to make sure that I don't have to keep spreading the "wealth" (financial, emotional, mental, temporal, etc.) thinner and thinner every 18 months to 2 years.....it isn't fair to the ones already born.

 

That's a good way to put it!

[KungFuPanda]

Aside from it being artificial bc, IUDs don't necessarily stop conception, just implantation. I know that they also work to stop conception, but that isn't guaranteed.

 

True, but when the objection is only to the effects of the hormones on a woman's body I'm surprised the non-hormonal IUD isn't discussed more as an effective, long-term solution.

[pfamilygal]

I had a partial uterine rupture with #5 (my 3rd c/s) - we wanted to VBAC. We waited three years and had #6, five weeks early to prevent rupture. My uterus was as thin as toilet tissue. I had my tubes tied. 11 pregnancies, 6 babies, 5 miscarriage, 4 c/s and I was done! My hands are so busy and I am so blessed. I pray the Lord opens a way for us to adopt, but right now I really am overwhelmed.

 

I have some *friends* who still say awful things to me about not trusting God. I think they can go suck an egg. Really. Good grief.

Edited August 29, 2011 by pfamilygal

[pfamilygal]

I remember reading about the couple who wrote "Open Embrace" back when it first came out. My thought then was that they were very young. Now, in reading the article linked above, I see that their decisions don't seem to be grounded in anything - moving to TN because of a song, etc.

 

I am not surprised by their story. Real life interferes with cosy dreams of large families, and if your beliefs are not rooted in something stable, it becomes very easy to change your beliefs to suit your new reality.

 

As a faithful-to-the-Magisterium Catholic, I do believe that artificial birth control is a sin. I believe that the default stance should be to be open to conception unless a couple has a serious reason not to be. When they have a serious reason, complete abstinence or NFP are the only acceptable options. I do not buy the rosy assurances of the Couple-to-Couple League that NFP is "marriage-building." It is what it is. I used to belong to CCL and even supported them through donations until I realized that they did not necessarily speak for the Catholic Church and saw that their stances on some issues were very questionable.

 

:grouphug: to all who have suffered losses! I have had 3 miscarriages and they were very emotionally and physically painful. One nearly killed me. :grouphug:

 

 

That's one reason we are not Catholic, though we were considering conversion. I cannot see telling my husband that we can't have sex for 15-20 more years.

[mama2cntrykids]

I had a partial uterine rupture with #5 (my 3rd c/s) - we wanted to VBAC. We waited three years and had #6, five weeks early to prevent rupture. My uterus was as thin as toilet tissue. I had my tubes tied. 11 pregnancies, 6 babies, 5 miscarriage, 4 c/s and I was done! My hands are so busy and I am so blessed. I pray the Lord opens a way for us to adopt, but right now I really am overwhelmed.

 

I have some *friends* who still say awful things to me about not trusting God. I think they can go suck an egg. Really. Good grief.

 

Where the heck is the "LIKE" button??!! Love it:lol:...go suck an egg. Right on sister!

 

PS-We should really at least have a LIKE smiley.

[UnsinkableKristen]

 

I have some *friends* who still say awful things to me about not trusting God. I think they can go suck an egg. Really. Good grief.

 

:D Good for you.

[pfamilygal]

Thanks, y'all. This has led to loss/change of friendships in my homeschool group and church as I no longer feel accepted.

 

I also have STRONG feelings about ministries that promote the QF conviction as the only acceptable form of Christianity. It is one thing to say that kids are blessings and we should prayerfully ask God before ending our fruitfulness. It is another to say that I am sinning because I didn't want to purposefully put myself in a life-threatening situation. (I do have these six sweet kiddos to care for - they need a mama!) I have been open about this on my blog and been stunned by the backlash from my friends.

 

I'm glad I'm finding some new ones here :)

[herbalgirl]

Oddly enough, I'm not QF but I have a strong... hesitation when it comes to sterility. I do NOT feel led to have a QF family--I feel strongly like we should stop after two more, and have felt that way for years. But I need to figure out how I'm going to stop then, since hormonal BC doesn't agree with me. Dh knows what he wants to do (V) but I have to wrap my brain around it. It almost feels like I *should* be QF, even though I do not feel like it is my path to have that many children and it is not part of my religion, etc. Like if we go for a V that it's somehow wrong, although I *know* it's not. My brain is weird. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

This is exactly how I am feeling right now!

 

We were basically QF-ish up until the 5th child. Dh felt he was happy with the number we had, and I mostly did, too, but still had these weird feelings that it wasn't right to stop. Getting pregnant, for me, up until that point was fairly easy. Then came my first miscarriage. After FIVE healthy pregnancies. It threw me for a huge loop, and I am still trying to recover. I did not want to "end on a bad note" so to speak, so we just thought we'd try for one more after the m/c. I got pg about 3 months after my m/c, and I don't think I really had much chance to process through my grief. I was worried in the beginning of the pg that it would be another m/c. I then started inwardly freaking out that something would be wrong with the baby, as I was almost 36 and all the statistics say there is a greater chance of chromosomal abnormalities with increased age. I personally know women 10 yrs. younger than me that had Down syndrome children or children with other abnormalities, but it is hard not to think that something might be wrong with your child because you are older (at least for me)...

 

Well, I had my baby this June and he is a beautiful, sweet, loving baby. He sleeps well. He also had a major heart defect that needed almost immediate repair, and he has Down syndrome. He had open heart surgery 11 days after birth, only because they had to wait almost a week due to him *also* having Group B Strep infection.

 

I am fried. I am d.o.n.e. I have never been so done in my life. He has trouble making it through a whole feeding as with heart issues and DS, the endurance isn't there. So, we feed him from a bottle what he will drink and the rest is put into his feeding tube and pumped into him. It is tiring doing this with an additional 5 children who are needy. I now have 6 children ages 9 and under.

 

I used to inwardly wonder *why* people stopped at such and such # of children-were they selfish? Did they just want wordly things instead of precious children? I now realize that I was arrogant and truthfully, it is none of my business. I was given all manner of QF books by my dh's stepmom after we had our first child. Those books, along with a number of QF families that were brought into our path throughout the years who had very strong opinions and didn't hesistate to voice them, has left me with a lot of mental QF baggage I need to clean up.

 

I love my children. I am so glad to have each and every one of them. I do, however, feel like my husband's limit was probably back at 4, and, if I am honest, mine was too. However, again, I wouldn't give back any of my children. It is an odd feeling.

[Renee in NC]

This is exactly how I am feeling right now!

 

We were basically QF-ish up until the 5th child. Dh felt he was happy with the number we had, and I mostly did, too, but still had these weird feelings that it wasn't right to stop. Getting pregnant, for me, up until that point was fairly easy. Then came my first miscarriage. After FIVE healthy pregnancies. It threw me for a huge loop, and I am still trying to recover. I did not want to "end on a bad note" so to speak, so we just thought we'd try for one more after the m/c. I got pg about 3 months after my m/c, and I don't think I really had much chance to process through my grief. I was worried in the beginning of the pg that it would be another m/c. I then started inwardly freaking out that something would be wrong with the baby, as I was almost 36 and all the statistics say there is a greater chance of chromosomal abnormalities with increased age. I personally know women 10 yrs. younger than me that had Down syndrome children or children with other abnormalities, but it is hard not to think that something might be wrong with your child because you are older (at least for me)...

 

Well, I had my baby this June and he is a beautiful, sweet, loving baby. He sleeps well. He also had a major heart defect that needed almost immediate repair, and he has Down syndrome. He had open heart surgery 11 days after birth, only because they had to wait almost a week due to him *also* having Group B Strep infection.

 

I am fried. I am d.o.n.e. I have never been so done in my life. He has trouble making it through a whole feeding as with heart issues and DS, the endurance isn't there. So, we feed him from a bottle what he will drink and the rest is put into his feeding tube and pumped into him. It is tiring doing this with an additional 5 children who are needy. I now have 6 children ages 9 and under.

 

I used to inwardly wonder *why* people stopped at such and such # of children-were they selfish? Did they just want wordly things instead of precious children? I now realize that I was arrogant and truthfully, it is none of my business. I was given all manner of QF books by my dh's stepmom after we had our first child. Those books, along with a number of QF families that were brought into our path throughout the years who had very strong opinions and didn't hesistate to voice them, has left me with a lot of mental QF baggage I need to clean up.

 

I love my children. I am so glad to have each and every one of them. I do, however, feel like my husband's limit was probably back at 4, and, if I am honest, mine was too. However, again, I wouldn't give back any of my children. It is an odd feeling.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

I had a partial uterine rupture with #5 (my 3rd c/s) - we wanted to VBAC. We waited three years and had #6, five weeks early to prevent rupture. My uterus was as thin as toilet tissue. I had my tubes tied. 11 pregnancies, 6 babies, 5 miscarriage, 4 c/s and I was done! My hands are so busy and I am so blessed. I pray the Lord opens a way for us to adopt, but right now I really am overwhelmed.

 

I have some *friends* who still say awful things to me about not trusting God. I think they can go suck an egg. Really. Good grief.

 

I just don't get this. Does God not speak to you through your heart and you mind?? Aren't you exercising His gift to you, free will, by choosing to stop getting pregnant?

 

Or was free will a joke and God only talks to women through their wombs?

[JumpyTheFrog]

I was given all manner of QF books by my dh's stepmom after we had our first child. Those books, along with a number of QF families that were brought into our path throughout the years who had very strong opinions and didn't hesistate to voice them, has left me with a lot of mental QF baggage I need to clean up.[/Quote]

 

Are all these people jumping at the chance to help you? If they are anything like the QF/patriarchal families at our former church, I bet they just ignore your need for help. When I was on bedrest with #2 to try to keep the vomiting under control enough to keep me out of the hospital, the most opinionated "birth control is a sin" and "we keep our daughters at home and then send them out to serve others" families didn't call, write, or visit. No contact with them for 9 weeks, except them asking my husband how I was when he went to church without me. We had to hire full time in home care to watch #1 and to take care of me.

 

Do you know who actually called once or twice or came to visit and help, even if only for 1 hour? The few small families in the church, with "only" two kids. There was one more moderate family that had their daughters come help. One volunteered, but I insisted on paying both of them. But the dogmatic families? Nowhere to be found.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I just don't get this. Does God not speak to you through your heart and you mind?? Aren't you exercising His gift to you, free will, by choosing to stop getting pregnant?

 

Or was free will a joke and God only talks to women through their wombs?

 

The QF types I know tended to believe that "everything that happens is God's will." They don't seem to believe in coincidences or random chance of anything. In fact, the logical extension of their view would be to throw out the entire branch or probability and statistics.

 

I'm a Christian but there's one woman than annoys me with her constant "The Lord did this or that." For example, after getting pregnant successfully with fertility treatment, it was "The Lord let me get pregnant" or something like that. I felt like yelling, "No, the fertility treatment worked! God set up the reproductive system, but nowhere does the Bible say that he sits there and directs each sperm either towards or away from the egg every time you have intercourse."

[herbalgirl]

Are all these people jumping at the chance to help you? If they are anything like the QF/patriarchal families at our former church, I bet they just ignore your need for help. When I was on bedrest with #2 to try to keep the vomiting under control enough to keep me out of the hospital, the most opinionated "birth control is a sin" and "we keep our daughters at home and then send them out to serve others" families didn't call, write, or visit. No contact with them for 9 weeks, except them asking my husband how I was when he went to church without me. We had to hire full time in home care to watch #1 and to take care of me.

 

Do you know who actually called once or twice or came to visit and help, even if only for 1 hour? The few small families in the church, with "only" two kids. There was one more moderate family that had their daughters come help. One volunteered, but I insisted on paying both of them. But the dogmatic families? Nowhere to be found.

 

We're military, so we've actually moved from the area where these people are. However, I have noticed here that it has been more the people with fewer kids or who have all their kids grown and gone who have offered to help. I've chalked that up to their greater availability than those who have lots of little ones still running around... I understand what you mean, though. My dh's stepmom said something on the phone while talking to me recently about god's hand being heavy upon us or the weight of his hand heavy upon us. Something like that. I am sleep deprived, lol. After I got off the phone, it hit me what she said, and I thought what the heck?! Who says that? I don't even know what she was referring to. It just didn't sit right with me and didn't help. When she was out helping with the other kids while dh and I were going back and forth to the hospital, she constantly wanted to debate theology and I was sitting there, thinking, "HELLO! My newborn son is going for open heart surgery! I couldn't care LESS!" :glare: I actually did tell her, "You know, theology is pretty low on my list of priorities right now." I mention her because she is one of the diehard QF types that have very strong opinions and will not hesitate to voice them. I do want to say I know many QF people who are sweet and not overbearing, too. I do not want to bash that way of thinking. I just wish people would show the love of Christ more often.

 

ETA: Actually, I do have an idea of what she is referring to. We're looking at a different flavor of Christianity than what she and my dh's dad are and it is bothering her. Soooo, that must explain why I have a m/c and a child with Down syndrome!! (roll eyes)

Edited September 1, 2011 by herbalgirl

[Janie Grace]

I was anti-BC when I got married. I actually came to this conviction all by my lonesome, sitting in a college biology class. The lecture was on reproduction and I remember thinking, "Wow, that is so amazing, only God could do that... we sure do casually interfere with a holy process... oh no, I don't think I believe in birth control." This inkling was then transformed into a firmly held belief when I met dh's sister and brother-in-law who were (are) all-out QF. They were, shall we say, *evangelistic* about it, and it would have been very awkward had I been of a different mind.

 

Got pregnant 5 months after the wedding, then again a year after birth of the first baby. However, around the time we got pregnant w/ #2, we had been learning about NFP and were coming to the conclusion that God would not have given us fertility signs if He had wanted marital intercourse to be a totally blind act. If you KNOW you are ovulating, you do make a decision. It's not just "up to God."

 

We are now at the place of thinking BC is fine, in certain forms. Still not comfortable with abortifacient BC. Still think children are a blessing, and that many people (believers and non-believers both) approach parenthood with a selfish mindset (children as accessories that we want when we're materially comfortable enough). I think that in some ways having a baby quickly helped us focus on something together and get past some early marriage rockiness more quickly.

 

So here I am in my mid-30s with 5 kids. We're done (vas). And I do struggle sometimes. I think that if we had had the same mindset as a newlywed that we do now, I would have wanted to wait. I would have wanted to work for a few years. I was a good student, went to a great college, had an awesome resume. In some ways, I feel regret that I didn't do something with it, just for a little while. It would have been nice to have more time with just dh too. I think it also would have given me more gratitude for my first few babies. I think I approached motherhood with more of a "here we go, this is what happens to us married women", grin-and-bear-it kind of attitude. I see older moms with more awe and gratefulness, more experience and perspective. I kind of envy that for the 23-year-old new mom that I was.

 

I don't know if I would have fewer kids. When we decided to have babies 4 and 5, we were totally fine with the idea of BC. We just wanted more. But sometimes I do wonder if that desire was totally personal or if it was influenced by the environment we were in (v. conservative church w. lots of big families). We are no longer in that kind of church and sometimes I have this guilty envy of smaller families whose lives seem simpler and easier. I know, small-family-people, they probably aren't. The grass is always greener, etc.

 

I do still believe in God and Jesus. I believe in providence, even! So I guess the banner over all of this for me is that God is sovereign, even over convictions no longer held. But it doesn't mean I don't have some regrets, or just niggling discontentment sometimes.

 

SIL doesn't know about the vas. I sort of dread that conversation. I know, I'm a grown woman and shouldn't care but I do. I hate being judged, and this is just another category in a long list of categories!

 

Thanks for starting this thread. It has been something on my mind a lot lately but I haven't verbalized it. This has helped.

[Ipsey]

 

Thanks for starting this thread. It has been something on my mind a lot lately but I haven't verbalized it. This has helped.

 

Thanks! I'm glad I started it too. It's been very helpful. And it is always nice to see that one is not alone in wresting with/changing mind about certain issues.