Anyone NOT assigning copywork for 1st grade?

[Tracy]

I was all set to use WWE1 with my dd6. But after reading an opinion from Wanda Sanseri, author of SWR, I am feeling ambivalent about it. I tend to agree that I really want my dd to practice visualizing words in her head and becoming adept at writing words that way. However, in spite of having beautiful handwriting, her stamina is very poor, which is why I still am considering the copywork.

 

My other concern is that in SWR, the child is supposed to compose their own sentences to write. But my dd has a lot of trouble with this exercise. She always wants to compose long and complex sentences that are way beyond her ability to write. So she either gets frustrated with writing the sentence that she has composed, or she gets frustrated with me telling her to simplify it.

 

Last year, we did not do copywork, because I felt that SWR was providing enough writing practice. Now I am wondering if SWR plus WWE copywork will be too much. Please help me think through this.

[sassenach]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it (which is essentially the narration and copywork that WWE assigns on day 4).

 

I really believe in copywork, narration and dictation.

[nansk]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it...

 

:iagree:totally.

 

 

ETA: Sorry, I did not completely answer you questions.

 

Now I am wondering if SWR plus WWE copywork will be too much.

 

Yes, I think it would be too much together based on what you describe of her handwriting ability.

 

Perhaps you can do the oral narration in WWE and skip the copywork, OR have her compose her SWR sentences orally and copy them (as suggested above) or do the copywork from WWE.

 

But after reading an opinion from Wanda Sanseri, author of SWR, I am feeling ambivalent about it.

 

Could you please share what Wanda wrote about copywork? I would be interested to know.

Edited August 10, 2011 by nansk

[frankcassiesmom]

:iagree:totally.

 

I absolutely agree as well.

[nova mama]

However, in spite of having beautiful handwriting, her stamina is very poor, which is why I still am considering the copywork.

 

My other concern is that in SWR, the child is supposed to compose their own sentences to write. But my dd has a lot of trouble with this exercise.

 

I think this is why copywork is so important. Copywork helps build that stamina, and gives her practice writing well-composed sentences until she can compose her own.

 

Why not give it a try for a few weeks and see how it goes? Write some simple sentences for her to copy, sit with her and gently correct her if she makes any mistakes.

[Tracy]

I guess what is hard is that I do love how so much language arts materials are integrated in SWR. But I really have to look at it as purely a spelling program. Last year, we didn't do sentences at all--just spelling dictation. And I think I have to do the same thing and leave the rest of language arts to the other programs that we use (like WWE).

[chepyl]

I do not do a handwriting program. I made copy work sheets using some of our memory work and pre-made sheets that lined up with SOTW. I have a notebook for the whole year. I decided that for now, we will not do copy work in the weeks we do dictation and we are only starting with 2 sentences a day. (We alternate Spelling Plus with the Dictation book by Susan Anthony. Last week we did list 4, this week the sentences for list 4 dictation.) I will slowly start adding, in a few weeks we will do dictation and copy work, then I will add more sentences to his dictation. I want to slowly and gently build his writing stamina. I think copy work and dictation are both very important skills to learn, but with young ones, it is good to move slowly if they need to.

[Delighted3]

A couple of things about SWR. At the beginning level, I have always made up a sentence for my child to copy using several spelling words. That is much more age appropriate in my opinion than having a beginning reader/speller try to make up their own sentence. The two of you can compose it together while you write it on the board and then she can copy it.

Also, instead of just dictating the spelling words as a list when you are reviewing them, you can make up sentences using just spelling words and dictate those. Not only does it give practice with dictation with words they know how to spell, I think it helps them to retain the spelling knowledge better. The spelling enrichments in SWR often contain sentences suitable for dictation using spelling words.

To make SWR and WWE fit together, I would just be aware of how much writing you are asking from her in a day. You could occasionally practice spelling words using tiles if you have a heavy writing day in WWE. Sometimes you could just work on WWE orally. At the beginning of the year, you could move a little slower in both programs while you build up her writing stamina.

HTH,

Joy

[BearWallowSchool]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it (which is essentially the narration and copywork that WWE assigns on day 4).

 

I really believe in copywork, narration and dictation.

 

 

:iagree:

[boscopup]

I agree that you've experienced first hand what SWB is talking about (I've experienced it too, and it's why WWE is more important than spelling in my house right now).

 

Have you tried having her do SWR on the white board? We do AAS, which involves writing 10 words per step and also several dictation sentences (there are 12 there, but we usually only do 2-3 in a day, and we've worked up to that). Writing them on the white board doesn't fatigue his hand so much. Also, when we were doing both on the same day (we aren't now), we would do WWE earlier in the day and AAS later in the day (afternoon during 2 year old's nap time!). Writing on the white board allowed him to write more in a day, and it also helped build his stamina for paper! By the end of his first grade year, he could copy 3 sentences onto paper in one sitting. I was thrilled!

 

I put WWE ahead of AAS in importance in my house because if my child can't physically write, he won't NEED to know how to spell. :tongue_smilie: We are working on both skills, of course, but he needs that physical ability. We have plenty of time to learn to spell. He isn't writing original sentences yet. I'm now doing AAS 2 days per week, and WWE the other 3 days (we combine days 1 and 2 of WWE2, since day 1 has no writing at all).

[angela in ohio]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it (which is essentially the narration and copywork that WWE assigns on day 4).

 

I really believe in copywork, narration and dictation.

 

Excellent advice!

[MissKNG]

Nope, no copywork for my 1st grader!

[SorrelZG]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it (which is essentially the narration and copywork that WWE assigns on day 4).

 

I really believe in copywork, narration and dictation.

 

 

I'm agreeing too.

[Farrar]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it (which is essentially the narration and copywork that WWE assigns on day 4).

 

I really believe in copywork, narration and dictation.

 

Okay, I'll be a voice of dissent (perhaps a lone one on this board). I agree 100% with SWB that it's developmentally inappropriate for 6 yos to be both composing and writing out their own sentences. As a result, I think narration is a great tool. However, I don't think it follows that copywork necessarily leads to good writing down the road. I'm sure it helps children with their handwriting. Occasionally I have my kids copy things (sometimes even their own narrated words) for that purpose. However, I don't consider it part of learning to compose your own writing. I think for many children, it's pure drudgery and busy work. Once my children write more fluently with better handwriting, we won't be doing it anymore.

 

Don't know if that's useful for the OP, just my opinion. I've really struggled to find the sort of materials I want to work with for my kids in learning to write because I don't fully agree with either of the prevailing theories (classical copywork style or public school spewing words in "journal entries" style) out there about early elementary writing.

[frankcassiesmom]

I don't think that's the voice of dissent in terms of what SWB teaches. If you listen to her writing lecture, copywork is used for teaching the mechanics of good writing more than anything else, not that copywork leads to good writing. She breaks down the pieces of writing (mechanics - being able to physically write well through copywork, coming up with the the ideas - narration, holding those ideas in your head - dictation and then moving on to integrating all of those in older children). It is part of composing good writing in that being able to write quickly and well aids in the process. A younger child who still needs to focus on every letter is not developmentally ready to not only come up with those ideas, hold them in their head, focus on proper letter writing and spelling, all at the same time without having been TRAINED to do so through copywork, dictation, and narration. And I think that that has been exactly what most have been saying here, not that copywork leads to a good writer in terms of learning HOW to come up with ideas, use better words, etc.

[Tracy]

I agree that you've experienced first hand what SWB is talking about (I've experienced it too, and it's why WWE is more important than spelling in my house right now).

 

Have you tried having her do SWR on the white board? We do AAS, which involves writing 10 words per step and also several dictation sentences (there are 12 there, but we usually only do 2-3 in a day, and we've worked up to that). Writing them on the white board doesn't fatigue his hand so much. Also, when we were doing both on the same day (we aren't now), we would do WWE earlier in the day and AAS later in the day (afternoon during 2 year old's nap time!). Writing on the white board allowed him to write more in a day, and it also helped build his stamina for paper! By the end of his first grade year, he could copy 3 sentences onto paper in one sitting. I was thrilled!

 

I put WWE ahead of AAS in importance in my house because if my child can't physically write, he won't NEED to know how to spell. :tongue_smilie: We are working on both skills, of course, but he needs that physical ability. We have plenty of time to learn to spell. He isn't writing original sentences yet. I'm now doing AAS 2 days per week, and WWE the other 3 days (we combine days 1 and 2 of WWE2, since day 1 has no writing at all).

 

This is interesting. I am not sure that I am in a position to put spelling ahead of WWE, as I have a child that is reading at a 4th grade level and writing her on her own in her free time. Just one year of SWR did wonders for her spelling, and she is really soaking in those spelling rules very quickly. (She averaged 93% on all spelling tests, and she only wrote each word at most twice before each test.) I have planned to do SWR and WWE at different times of day. Seeing as how she is doing so well with spelling, I think I will do only spelling dictation (5 words dictation and quiz same 5 words each day, totalling 10 written words per day) with SWR without any extra enrichments or sentence composition and then leave the sentences to WWE. Hopefully this will not be to much and will help her to increase her writing stamina.

[Farrar]

I don't think that's the voice of dissent in terms of what SWB teaches. If you listen to her writing lecture, copywork is used for teaching the mechanics of good writing more than anything else, not that copywork leads to good writing. She breaks down the pieces of writing (mechanics - being able to physically write well through copywork, coming up with the the ideas - narration, holding those ideas in your head - dictation and then moving on to integrating all of those in older children). It is part of composing good writing in that being able to write quickly and well aids in the process. A younger child who still needs to focus on every letter is not developmentally ready to not only come up with those ideas, hold them in their head, focus on proper letter writing and spelling, all at the same time without having been TRAINED to do so through copywork, dictation, and narration. And I think that that has been exactly what most have been saying here, not that copywork leads to a good writer in terms of learning HOW to come up with ideas, use better words, etc.

 

But that's exactly what I disagree with. I don't think copywork or dictation do train children to be able to prepare to do those things themselves. Sitting and copying sentences helps kids with the mechanics of handwriting only in my opinion, not with the mechanics of creating sentences, which is the idea behind pretty much all classical writing approaches I've seen. WWE is much more than a handwriting program.

[stripe]

But that's exactly what I disagree with. I don't think copywork or dictation do train children to be able to prepare to do those things themselves. Sitting and copying sentences helps kids with the mechanics of handwriting only in my opinion, not with the mechanics of creating sentences, which is the idea behind pretty much all classical writing approaches I've seen. WWE is much more than a handwriting program.

I found it did train my not-very-keen on writing son to get used to the idea of writing. I see dictation as a listening practice, plus the skill of taking what's heard and translating to the page. He hates copywork, but I am really doing it for handwriting practice. He enjoys writing his own stuff more, much more, but, now that he can spell and has some experience under his belt, he actually can do this. I have to say that I think reading prepares the child more for sentence formation than copying. I also do it for exposure to format (like poetry).

 

I did recently read something about the brain that pondered the old handwriting/copying/penmanship fixation as being useful to help cognitive development, especially for children with some sort of deficit, to build up through repitition -- that it seems boring/drudgery but is actually accomplishing something else. In my case, due to some other reasons, I use the handwriting practice as a tool for other ends as well, namely close attention to small details, that don't apply to most other kids' needs but do for mine.

 

Eta: i found the book -- it's the Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doige. He identifies handwriting, poetry memorization, and careful pronunciation as parts of classical education that helped build up the brain. P 41-42.

Edited August 10, 2011 by stripe

[boscopup]

But that's exactly what I disagree with. I don't think copywork or dictation do train children to be able to prepare to do those things themselves. Sitting and copying sentences helps kids with the mechanics of handwriting only in my opinion, not with the mechanics of creating sentences, which is the idea behind pretty much all classical writing approaches I've seen. WWE is much more than a handwriting program.

 

No one has said copywork helps with the mechanics of creating sentences? The post you quoted said exactly what you just said - copywork helps with the mechanics of handwriting. Narration is what helps with the mechanics of creating a sentence (in your head before writing it down). Dictation teaches the child to hold the thought in their head long enough to write it down. They are separate skills.

 

What do you use for handwriting practice if you don't do copywork? Do you go straight to original sentences? :confused:

[alpidarkomama]

Have you read the instructor text that goes with WWE?? It answers a lot of these questions. I think copywork is *very* effective at this age, at least for my children.

[kathkath]

I don't do copywork but we do a lot of writing. With all due respect to SWB I DO think it is appropriate to expect this age to create coherent sentences. What is required is a great deal of modeling on the teacher's part, lots of oral work, and something meaningful to write about. I have taught several hundred children successfully this way and most have been able to write a well-organized paragraph (or more!!) about a topic by the end of first grade. No tears either. Just last week I got my 5yo son to happily write a sentence about why he loves to eat cake at one of his summer activities.

[kitten18]

I agree with SWB's opinion that expecting a 6yo to compose and simultaneously write original sentences is developmentally inappropriate. I think you have experienced that first hand. In your place I would ask her for her sentence, write it for her and then have her copy it (which is essentially the narration and copywork that WWE assigns on day 4).

 

I really believe in copywork, narration and dictation.

:iagree:

 

I don't think that's the voice of dissent in terms of what SWB teaches. If you listen to her writing lecture, copywork is used for teaching the mechanics of good writing more than anything else, not that copywork leads to good writing. She breaks down the pieces of writing (mechanics - being able to physically write well through copywork, coming up with the the ideas - narration, holding those ideas in your head - dictation and then moving on to integrating all of those in older children). It is part of composing good writing in that being able to write quickly and well aids in the process. A younger child who still needs to focus on every letter is not developmentally ready to not only come up with those ideas, hold them in their head, focus on proper letter writing and spelling, all at the same time without having been TRAINED to do so through copywork, dictation, and narration. And I think that that has been exactly what most have been saying here, not that copywork leads to a good writer in terms of learning HOW to come up with ideas, use better words, etc.

Brilliant post. You just summed up SWB's whole writing lecture in one paragraph.:D

[frankcassiesmom]

But that's exactly what I disagree with. I don't think copywork or dictation do train children to be able to prepare to do those things themselves. Sitting and copying sentences helps kids with the mechanics of handwriting only in my opinion, not with the mechanics of creating sentences, which is the idea behind pretty much all classical writing approaches I've seen. WWE is much more than a handwriting program.

 

Read what I wrote again. My ENTIRE POINT was the copywork was for the mechanics of writing. Copywork cements the mechanics. Narration the act of developing an idea of formulating the sentences. Dictation the act of holding those words in one's head until able to write them. Exactly what SWB teaches and what I said in my post. And exactly why WWE is much more than a handwriting program. I think you're just not understanding what everyone is saying. Everyone is saying almost exactly what you're saying yet you are disagreeing.

[Farrar]

I've heard her lecture and read parts of WWE. I don't think she's saying copywork is just teaching kids handwriting or handwriting fluency (though it does that too). She's saying it helps kids understand the mechanics of putting together a sentence by modeling that for them over and over. Copywork is supposed to help kids understand what makes a good sentence.

[sassenach]

I've heard her lecture and read parts of WWE. I don't think she's saying copywork is just teaching kids handwriting or handwriting fluency (though it does that too). She's saying it helps kids understand the mechanics of putting together a sentence by modeling that for them over and over. Copywork is supposed to help kids understand what makes a good sentence.

 

For what it's worth, I understand the point you are trying to make!

[SorrelZG]

I've heard her lecture and read parts of WWE. I don't think she's saying copywork is just teaching kids handwriting or handwriting fluency (though it does that too). She's saying it helps kids understand the mechanics of putting together a sentence by modeling that for them over and over. Copywork is supposed to help kids understand what makes a good sentence.

 

 

Right. WWE states that copywork develops (among other things) and "understanding of the rules that govern written presentation: capitalization, punctuation, spacing, letter formation. [..] ..he'll copy out sentences from good writers, practicing the look and feel of properly written language." .. and so on.

 

That whole section on page 8 isn't referring purely to a model of neat handwriting when it's talking about what "properly written language" is supposed to "look and feel" like.

[Farrar]

Right. WWE states that copywork develops (among other things) and "understanding of the rules that govern written presentation: capitalization, punctuation, spacing, letter formation. [..] ..he'll copy out sentences from good writers, practicing the look and feel of properly written language." .. and so on.

 

That whole section on page 8 isn't referring purely to a model of neat handwriting when it's talking about what "properly written language" is supposed to "look and feel" like.

 

Yes. So, that's what I respectfully disagree with. I think that might be useful to a few kids or in a limited way, but I don't find it to be a solid basis for a whole approach.

 

(And, thanks, Shannon - that someone knew what I meant at least!)

[FO4UR]

I have experience with SWR and WWE.

 

Do the copywork SWB style, even if you make up your own sentences from the spelling lists.

 

I bought the WWE textbook so I can gauge what we actually do in comparison with SWB's recommendations.

 

 

I no longer use SWR, but sentence dictation before copywork proved the old cliche about the cart and the horse...

[poetic license]

Right. WWE states that copywork develops (among other things) and "understanding of the rules that govern written presentation: capitalization, punctuation, spacing, letter formation. [..] ..he'll copy out sentences from good writers, practicing the look and feel of properly written language." .. and so on.

 

That whole section on page 8 isn't referring purely to a model of neat handwriting when it's talking about what "properly written language" is supposed to "look and feel" like.

 

This is how I understood SWB's points on copywork. I also lean towards feeling that it's more busywork and not essential to teaching good writing, but that's just in my own experience (as a girl who was strong in language arts). I hear from others that boys OTOH seem to need more explicit writing instruction. This sounds like a gross overgeneralization, but that's the impression that I get when WWE is discussed-- that it can be particularly helpful for boys who are struggling writers.

[JennyD]

I am using copywork mainly for handwriting, although with the hope that my 1st grader might pick up a bit of spelling and mechanics along the way. I am loosely following WWE but using sentences from whatever my son happens to be reading at the moment. (Just for the record, he thinks that this is just about the coolest thing EVAH.)

 

More than anything else, though, I just want him to start using lower case letters. He is an enthusiastic writer and writes a fair amount on his own but insists on WRITING EVERYTHING IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

 

ETA: I should that while my son likes the copywork, what he really wants to do is trace what I've written. I have no idea why. I have him do the copywork and then he can (and does) trace on his own time.

Edited August 10, 2011 by JennyD

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I was truly surprised how much copywork, narration, and dictation helped ds. We did it quite a bit in second grade (in an age appropriate manner:tongue_smilie:) and still do. I truly believe it was a great help for ds. In 3rd grade he attended a private school and had to write many 3 paragraph and more papers which I was unsure of him being ready for but he was more than ready. I believe the copywork also gave him and upper hand in using the proper mechanics and puctuation in a sentence before he was properly taught how to do such things as quitations and the use of commas:)

Edited December 8, 2011 by priscilla

[LindaOz]

I haven't read all the replies so I apologise if my response is doubling up or irrelevant....:tongue_smilie:

 

I think that it helps to identify your reason for doing copywork - what is your main goal? My 1st grader does copywork about 4x a week and i use it to develop his handwriting. So handwriting practice is my main goal, although it is still incidently helping with spelling and mechanics at the same time. He spends a couple of minutes practicing a particular letter, and then he copies a Bible verse, couple of lines from a poem or literature, or a little bit from history. I'm finding this really good. His history copywork will eventually get bound in a book (it's illustrated as well) so he has his own 'history book'.

 

I definitely think it is worth it - but he only does one selection a day.

[Kuovonne]

A couple of things about SWR. At the beginning level, I have always made up a sentence for my child to copy using several spelling words.

...

 

Also, instead of just dictating the spelling words as a list when you are reviewing them, you can make up sentences using just spelling words and dictate those. Not only does it give practice with dictation with words they know how to spell, I think it helps them to retain the spelling knowledge better.

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I did with my older DD when we did SWR. We didn't do any of the enrichments from SWR, just sentence dictation using only spelling words.

 

For my younger DD, I'm making up my own spelling program, and it is based on daily sentence dictation.

 

I don't do copywork at all. Just dictation and narration.

[HiddenJewel]

I do not have a student do copywork until he can read. Then I see a value in it.

 

About SWR, the student composes just oral sentences in the early levels until he can handle writing it as well.

[Mommy22alyns]

Sylvia's writing stamina is not what Rebecca's was in first grade. So we don't do a handwriting program and instead work on making her work in WWE and CLE LA look nice. Next year we'll add in a handwriting program.

[MerryAtHope]

I see this is an older thread, but thought I'd weigh in anyway! Copywork can be a very effective tool, but it depends on what a child reads and understands already. Doing too much copywork too soon, or doing copywork that is beyond some of the child's skills can actually be detrimental. I wrote about this in #2 of my blog article, "6 Writing Mistakes - Reluctant Writers Part 2."

[happyhomemaker]

A couple of things about SWR. At the beginning level, I have always made up a sentence for my child to copy using several spelling words. That is much more age appropriate in my opinion than having a beginning reader/speller try to make up their own sentence. The two of you can compose it together while you write it on the board and then she can copy it.

Also, instead of just dictating the spelling words as a list when you are reviewing them, you can make up sentences using just spelling words and dictate those. Not only does it give practice with dictation with words they know how to spell, I think it helps them to retain the spelling knowledge better. The spelling enrichments in SWR often contain sentences suitable for dictation using spelling words.

To make SWR and WWE fit together, I would just be aware of how much writing you are asking from her in a day. You could occasionally practice spelling words using tiles if you have a heavy writing day in WWE. Sometimes you could just work on WWE orally. At the beginning of the year, you could move a little slower in both programs while you build up her writing stamina.

HTH,

Joy

 

:iagree: This is what I did with my ds. I didn't find it necessary to go slowly in both programs, but that is good advice if your dd is struggling. I did make sure that the day we wrote a sentence with SWR was a narration day in WWE to avoid too much writing in the beginning. We also do not do the subjects back to back.

[go_go_gadget]

I do not have a student do copywork until he can read. Then I see a value in it.

 

I'm the same. My daughter's this close to reading well enough for WWE1, but she's just not quite there so I'm holding off. In the meantime, she's doing copywork from her phonics readers, which she can read. I just copy four sentences for her (they're very short). It's definitely having a positive effect; she's clearly assimilating a "feel" for the structure of a sentence from a writing perspective.