I tread here with great trepidation, but I need advice...

[lovelaughs_times_three]

This subject has been debated, hotly at times, so I am a bit nervous to bring it up again, but I need some advice.

 

My son and daughter have gotten in to hitting and kicking each other when they are mad. I've tried my usual approach. That is, I start with mild consequences. These consequences increase in intensity with each new offense until the behavior changes (at least for a significant amount of time). They have had things taken from them that they value and more. For example, one day it happened while we were on vacation at a major theme park. The two of them had to walk with us all day and didn't get to go on any rides. They just had to endure the heat and watch us "play". That was a super hard day for me, too. I felt so guilty. But, I stuck to my guns and they had a good attitude about it.

 

The problem is, the behavior is not changing and it occurs to me that I need a different strategy for this one. I think the biggest thing they need is to have coping mechanisms for dealing with legitimate anger and frustration. For example, when my son takes my dd's favorite "stuffdy animal" (as she calls it) and throws it across the room to aggravate her, she needs to know how to deal with this frustration. I know that it makes her feel powerless to not be able to react to this grievance with a swift kick to ds's shins. But, what should I teach her to do instead? She needs to feel like she has an arsenal of socially acceptable ways to show, express and deal with her anger. And so does my son, when it is the other way around. They both seem to love to get under the other's skin. Not to mention, dealing with anger and frustration in proactive ways is a life-skill that I would love to give them.

 

I don't deal with my anger very well, so I'm not much help. I tend to just stuff things down. I know she needs to take a deep breath and maybe leave the room to deal with the hot part of her anger, but how does she express the anger to her brother?

 

I know "kids will be kids" and I am probably worrying too much about their little bickers and fights, but I don't want them to think it is "ok" to deal with their anger with any form of "violence".

 

I need some practical, step-by-step kind of advice on how to deal with my kids on this issue, and how to teach them to process anger and frustration.

 

(hope this doesn't turn nasty! :D)

 

Thanks!!!!!! You all are soosoosoooo smart! :001_smile:

[Amy in NH]

Ds is old enough to know that it's not okay to take his sister's toy and throw it across the room. Consequences should be immediate and severe.

[Ria]

 

My son and daughter have gotten in to hitting and kicking each other when they are mad. I've tried my usual approach. That is, I start with mild consequences. These consequences increase in intensity with each new offense until the behavior changes (at least for a significant amount of time). They have had things taken from them that they value and more.

 

The problem is, the behavior is not changing and it occurs to me that I need a different strategy for this one. I think the biggest thing they need is to have coping mechanisms for dealing with legitimate anger and frustration. For example, when my son takes my dd's favorite "stuffdy animal" (as she calls it) and throws it across the room to aggravate her, she needs to know how to deal with this frustration.

 

IMO, the consequences of a physical altercation between siblings should be swift, severe, and unchanging. No "increasing in intensity with each new offense" - that only teaches them that they can get away with hitting/kicking up to a point. I think I would isolate the offender for a few hours in a bedroom, assign some nasty chores, or something else that will be viewed as highly unpleasant. Make them think twice before engaging in the behavior.

 

That said, it sounds like the real issue between your children is that they aggravate each other to the point where they lose self-control. I think you'll find that it's more helpful to deal with the aggravation/teasing before their behavior degrades to the hitting/kicking stage. It sounds as though your kids pick on each other to the point where they no longer can control themselves. That's the behavior issue I'd address first.

[bcnlvr]

We started taking $5.00 per incident from the perp's allowance (they all get allowance/manage money here, separate from chores/family citizenship). The behavior extinguished itself in about a week.

 

For example, ds1 would provoke ds2 into a squabble, and then ds2 would hit. That's two issues. 1. inability regarding conflict resolution and 2. physical violence. So I talk to ds1 about provoking and ds2 about responding, then ds2 gets $$ taken out of allowance for hitting. Now both dss will come down with their grievances and we work them out together, if needed. But the hitting/kicking has stopped.

 

I used a similar tack (not $$) regarding lying and *to my knowledge* have not had any lying.

 

bcn

Edited August 2, 2011 by bcnlvr

[mo2]

My kids are horrible about fighting too! I try to catch it before it escalates and separate them for some "cool off" time. Maybe send one of them to the shower or for a quick run around the yard to blow off some steam?

[Harriet Vane]

My instinct here is to have them "re-do" each and every unacceptable situation with you. You will spend a week or two doing a LOT of on-the-minute coaching, but it will be worth every second.

 

--State briefly what was unacceptable.

 

--State what they will do for the "re-do."

 

--Re-do it. Then re-do it again. You might even go for a third re-do if you don't think the heart is there yet.

 

--End with something like a schmaltzy mom-hug of both kids and tell them you'll be glad to walk it through with them as many times as needed.

 

You'll also want to have a talk with the kids ahead of time. "Kids, it's so sad that you hurt each other. You're going to be family for the rest of your life, so you might as well learn to be friends. From now on, when I see you showing unkindness to your sibling, I'll be right there to help you learn kindness instead. I'll just simply ask you to re-do the situation the way it should have been."

 

Your talk will bring smiles and giggles if you enlist your husband to help. Role-play a little drama together, then re-do it the way it should be done.

[Ria]

My instinct here is to have them "re-do" each and every unacceptable situation with you. You will spend a week or two doing a LOT of on-the-minute coaching, but it will be worth every second.

 

--State briefly what was unacceptable.

 

--State what they will do for the "re-do."

 

--Re-do it. Then re-do it again. You might even go for a third re-do if you don't think the heart is there yet.

 

--End with something like a schmaltzy mom-hug of both kids and tell them you'll be glad to walk it through with them as many times as needed.

 

You'll also want to have a talk with the kids ahead of time. "Kids, it's so sad that you hurt each other. You're going to be family for the rest of your life, so you might as well learn to be friends. From now on, when I see you showing unkindness to your sibling, I'll be right there to help you learn kindness instead. I'll just simply ask you to re-do the situation the way it should have been."

 

Your talk will bring smiles and giggles if you enlist your husband to help. Role-play a little drama together, then re-do it the way it should be done.

 

I love this! :)

[Harriet Vane]

IMO, the consequences of a physical altercation between siblings should be swift, severe, and unchanging. No "increasing in intensity with each new offense" - that only teaches them that they can get away with hitting/kicking up to a point. I think I would isolate the offender for a few hours in a bedroom, assign some nasty chores, or something else that will be viewed as highly unpleasant. Make them think twice before engaging in the behavior.

 

That said, it sounds like the real issue between your children is that they aggravate each other to the point where they lose self-control. I think you'll find that it's more helpful to deal with the aggravation/teasing before their behavior degrades to the hitting/kicking stage. It sounds as though your kids pick on each other to the point where they no longer can control themselves. That's the behavior issue I'd address first.

 

Wise words. I think the "re-do" that I wrote in my post would be more appropriately applied to the second paragraph of Ria's post above.

[Harriet Vane]

I love this! :)

 

I'm laughing because we posted affirmations of each others posts at the same time. :)

[Ria]

I'm laughing because we posted affirmations of each others posts at the same time. :)

 

LOL. Seems like old times. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

They are past the "increase with intensity" approach. They know the rule - the consequence should be immediate and the same every single time.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think they need some training in terms of what TO do, rather than just not do. And punishing kids because you haven't taught them isn't particularly fair (or helpful...even if they DO restrain themselves from kicking the crud out of their siblings, they still don't know how to solve the problem).

 

Ideally, you'll get THEM thinking about what went wrong and what they could do instead. You may have to guide some. But I wouldn't do all the work for them (such as telling them what went wrong and then telling them what they should have done). It is very possible that as you talk with them, you'll see where their faulty thinking is so can give guidance that can help in a multiple of situations.

 

It is also helpful to not deal in fear with these things. Seriously, it is very unlikely your 7yr old will be 27 and kicking her husband even if she kicks her brother for the next 10 years. You don't *want* that, but don't parent in fear either. Additionally, there is something going on with your kids in the moment. They are over reacting for a reason and need to learn to regulate more appropriately. Understanding what they are feeling and why can be very helpful if you can keep calm enough to help them deal with it. The same goes for, btw, the offender.

 

One last thing I would do since this sounds like it's an ongoing problem....I would have them "bless" one another regularly. You might start with a couple times per day. If they are LOOKING for opportunities to be nice and helpful to one another, they are much less likely to do things like throw a lovey to irritate one another, at least until after they've had the opportunity for the day :)

[Harriet Vane]

LOL. Seems like old times. :)

 

It's good to see you here again. :)

[PentecostalMom]

IMO, the consequences of a physical altercation between siblings should be swift, severe, and unchanging. No "increasing in intensity with each new offense" - that only teaches them that they can get away with hitting/kicking up to a point. I think I would isolate the offender for a few hours in a bedroom, assign some nasty chores, or something else that will be viewed as highly unpleasant. Make them think twice before engaging in the behavior.

 

That said, it sounds like the real issue between your children is that they aggravate each other to the point where they lose self-control. I think you'll find that it's more helpful to deal with the aggravation/teasing before their behavior degrades to the hitting/kicking stage. It sounds as though your kids pick on each other to the point where they no longer can control themselves. That's the behavior issue I'd address first.

 

:iagree:

[WishboneDawn]

That is, I start with mild consequences.

 

I've been a pretty laid back parent most of my parenting career but when it came to hitting there were NO mild consequences. When on sibling hit or kicked or bit or whatever the other one then their world came down. Whatever fun plans they might have had for the day were over. Toys were taken away, they were sent to their room, etc.

 

I've only had to do that a few times. There are some things that demand over-the-top discipline and IMO, physical violence is one of them.

[RahRah]

Have you considered that since it's between them, it's their frustration with each other - that whomever does something to the other, then that person who has something done to them or their stuff is allowed to decide what the consequence is?

 

For example, if you DS throws your DD's stuffed animal across the room - your DS has just bought himself a consequence his sister decides on....like she decides he doesn't get to watch television for the next 24-hours, or something like that. Since they both know each other well and know what the other would not want to lose - maybe give some empowerment to the person wronged by letting them dole out the consequence, with you simply being mediator (ie. if one of them chooses something ridiculous, you get to say, try again).

[PeacefulChaos]

IMO, the consequences of a physical altercation between siblings should be swift, severe, and unchanging. No "increasing in intensity with each new offense" - that only teaches them that they can get away with hitting/kicking up to a point. I think I would isolate the offender for a few hours in a bedroom, assign some nasty chores, or something else that will be viewed as highly unpleasant. Make them think twice before engaging in the behavior.

 

That said, it sounds like the real issue between your children is that they aggravate each other to the point where they lose self-control. I think you'll find that it's more helpful to deal with the aggravation/teasing before their behavior degrades to the hitting/kicking stage. It sounds as though your kids pick on each other to the point where they no longer can control themselves. That's the behavior issue I'd address first.

 

:iagree:

[bnrmom]

I've found that the problem with "zero tolerance" is that there is so often a grey area as to who is at fault. Straight up hitting with no provocation? Sure, that's an immediate loss of privileges and go to your room. But more often than not, it's the litany of "it's not my fault because he did this first" and I just don't like playing judge and jury. Honestly? I tell them to get it away from me. They want to fight? Take it outside. Given that, there are a few ways we approach this around here.

 

We talk a lot about how no one makes you do anything, and in fact, even your own feelings are your responsibility. I try to be careful not to say things like "don't make me yell" because I want to illustrate that we are all in charge of how we react.

 

I also explain a lot that from a purely tactical standpoint they should really try to figure out a calmer way of resolving fights. I get cranky when they fight. Dealing with their fights takes a lot of energy. If I am tired and cranky, am I more or less likely to say yes to a request for ice cream?

 

In the end I try to stay out of resolving their fights as much as possible.

Edited August 2, 2011 by bnrmom

[Parrothead]

I can't believe I'm going to wade into this subject again.

 

IMO both need to know that you or dh will take care of the offender. If your ds does something to aggravate dd then dd needs to tell you as the person in authority over ds what has occurred and you need to dole out whatever are the dire consequences in your family.

 

Likewise if your dd does something to aggravate ds then ds should come to you as the person who is in authority over dd and you will dole out the appropriate dire consequences.

 

Unfortunately for your son there is a double standard in our society. Boys do not hit girls ever. He needs to know that 1.) he will suffer a greater consequence for hitting a girl and 2.) most importantly that you will back him up 100% if his sister aggravates him to the point that he is about to lose it.

 

Not coming to you (or dh) should have a greater consequence to start out. Say ds punches favorite stuffy, dd must come to you or her consequence for hitting/kicking ds will be greater than ds's for offending dd. And vice-versa. So say you use chores as consequences. Ds then has to clean out trash cans for being aggravating. But dd will have to do a chore for her brother and do a chore for you like cleaning the bathroom. (Whatever works in your family.)

 

Hopefully once they realize that they get in more trouble for not coming to you, they will stop taking matters into their own hands. At that point when ds rips off doll heads and dd comes to tell you about it she can sit smugly by while ds hands over his allowance to pay for new dolls.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree with much of what has already been said. However, I would add to this the idea of avoiding the problem in the first place. When do they *start* to aggravate each other?

 

Are they hungry?

 

Do they need protein?

 

Do they need some outdoor time?

 

Do they need physical exercise?

 

Are they bored?

 

I noticed mine started to aggravate each other at a certain time. We started going for a walk at that time, followed by a snack. It helped a lot.

[Julie Smith]

I can't believe I'm going to wade into this subject again.

 

IMO both need to know that you or dh will take care of the offender. If your ds does something to aggravate dd then dd needs to tell you as the person in authority over ds what has occurred and you need to dole out whatever are the dire consequences in your family.

 

Likewise if your dd does something to aggravate ds then ds should come to you as the person who is in authority over dd and you will dole out the appropriate dire consequences.

 

Unfortunately for your son there is a double standard in our society. Boys do not hit girls ever. He needs to know that 1.) he will suffer a greater consequence for hitting a girl and 2.) most importantly that you will back him up 100% if his sister aggravates him to the point that he is about to lose it.

 

Not coming to you (or dh) should have a greater consequence to start out. Say ds punches favorite stuffy, dd must come to you or her consequence for hitting/kicking ds will be greater than ds's for offending dd. And vice-versa. So say you use chores as consequences. Ds then has to clean out trash cans for being aggravating. But dd will have to do a chore for her brother and do a chore for you like cleaning the bathroom. (Whatever works in your family.)

 

Hopefully once they realize that they get in more trouble for not coming to you, they will stop taking matters into their own hands. At that point when ds rips off doll heads and dd comes to tell you about it she can sit smugly by while ds hands over his allowance to pay for new dolls.

 

This is pretty much how we deal with things at home.

 

Once when the boys were younger they went though a phase where they were at each other often. For about 2 days the rule was they couldn't be in the same room. :) They got so annoyed at that. Taking turns being with Mom and Dad. Not going anywhere since they couldn't be in the car together.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I've found that the problem with "zero tolerance" is that there is so often a grey area as to who is at fault.

 

Actually, I don't care what the provocation is, there is to be no hitting or kicking from a child of either gender in my house. Having said that, I am a firm believer of being aware of problems and nipping things in the bud before they even start. So - at the first sign of sniping at each other or teasing I would step in because I would know that stopping it then would avoid so much grief for all of us. If the kid's fighting was such a problem that I couldn't leave them alone while I threw a load of laundry in the washer or went to the bathroom, then I would "tomato stake" one or both of them. In this case, I would possibly take turns having them do chores with me while the other one did something in their own room. I would only have them together when I was there to supervise their interactions closely. And yes (sigh) I do know what a PITA it is to have to do that because I've been there.

[Guest Cole'sMom]

Read the book Siblings Without Rivalry. Best advice ever and I have four kids that used to try to kill each other. The book is short and a quick read... actually pretty juvenile and annoying at times, but fabulous advice that I guarantee will make you rethink the typical ways we handle these things.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-Together/dp/0380799006/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312321360&sr=8-1

[lovelaughs_times_three]

My instinct here is to have them "re-do" each and every unacceptable situation with you. You will spend a week or two doing a LOT of on-the-minute coaching, but it will be worth every second.

 

--State briefly what was unacceptable.

 

--State what they will do for the "re-do."

 

--Re-do it. Then re-do it again. You might even go for a third re-do if you don't think the heart is there yet.

 

--End with something like a schmaltzy mom-hug of both kids and tell them you'll be glad to walk it through with them as many times as needed.

 

You'll also want to have a talk with the kids ahead of time. "Kids, it's so sad that you hurt each other. You're going to be family for the rest of your life, so you might as well learn to be friends. From now on, when I see you showing unkindness to your sibling, I'll be right there to help you learn kindness instead. I'll just simply ask you to re-do the situation the way it should have been."

 

Your talk will bring smiles and giggles if you enlist your husband to help. Role-play a little drama together, then re-do it the way it should be done.

 

I haven't read through all the posts yet. I'm just now getting back on. So this may already be addressed. The problem I have is knowing how they should re-do it. It may be obvious to others, but I'm not sure I know what the "right" way to express frustration is. If ds or dd does not like something that is happening and it is really upsetting them, how do they respond? How would it role-play out?

 

Like I said, I'm sure this is obvious, but I'm an emotional-stuffer and my husband has a over-active sensitivity to any conflict since he was raised by an alcoholic father. So, we're not the best at figuring out what is a healthy response to feelings of anger.

 

I teach my kids to say, in a firm voice, "Don't do that!" or "I don't like that!" but what do they do if that doesn't work? I know I also need to work on them not aggravating each other....but where I'm at a loss is how to teach them expressions of anger or responses to anger feelings that are appropriate. They are going to face others in their life that will upset them. I want to give them the tools to know how to respond.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I love your advice, by the way, I'm just needing more details...

[lovelaughs_times_three]

They are past the "increase with intensity" approach. They know the rule - the consequence should be immediate and the same every single time.

 

Ok. I'm with you. I get that as truth. But the consequences are not working even when they are "severe and immediate". I'm at a loss. I've not had a situation before where the consequences weren't working.

 

Although, they are getting less intense with their fights. The first one, (that got them the no fun at the park consequence) was an all out brawl. The next one was a couple hits/kicks back and forth. And this one today sounds like it was just one kick and then an immediate coming to me to "confess". Maybe that's progress???

 

I need a consequence that will work. But I also want to use this as one of those "teaching opportunities" that they love so much. I want them to know how to deal with situations that leave them feeling powerless or frustrated without resorting to a temper fit.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ok. I'm with you. I get that as truth. But the consequences are not working even when they are "severe and immediate". I'm at a loss. I've not had a situation before where the consequences weren't working.

 

Although, they are getting less intense with their fights. The first one, (that got them the no fun at the park consequence) was an all out brawl. The next one was a couple hits/kicks back and forth. And this one today sounds like it was just one kick and then an immediate coming to me to "confess". Maybe that's progress???

 

I need a consequence that will work. But I also want to use this as one of those "teaching opportunities" that they love so much. I want them to know how to deal with situations that leave them feeling powerless or frustrated without resorting to a temper fit.

 

I'm glad that the fights are getting less intense. Actually immediate was my word but severe wasn't. Look for my later post where I suggested tomato staking them. Proactively trying to keep them from starting the fights to begin with is where I would spend more of my time.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

I've been a pretty laid back parent most of my parenting career but when it came to hitting there were NO mild consequences. When on sibling hit or kicked or bit or whatever the other one then their world came down. Whatever fun plans they might have had for the day were over. Toys were taken away, they were sent to their room, etc.

 

I've only had to do that a few times. There are some things that demand over-the-top discipline and IMO, physical violence is one of them.

 

I thought not letting them ride any rides at an amusement park on a vacation was pretty intense. But, still, it happens...*sigh*

 

I agree that the consequences need to be something that will leave an impression for next time. The problem is, I started out with the park privilege being taken away, and they also had to serve each other for a day. And yet, the next time my dd was frustrated, she kicked....

 

I guess I shouldn't say that I started out mild, because on this one I really didn't. But the consequence I used hasn't cut out the behavior yet. Do you have any suggestions? Is it just a matter of needing more severe consequences?

[Joanne]

I'm a bit confused. When I read your thread, I assumed the children were all under 5; less than school aged.

 

Your post seems incongruent with the ages listed in your signature line.

 

I agree with Pamela that the VAST majority of children will not grow up thinking hitting is the way to get your way. (The vast majority also won't become adults who, take your glasses off like babies do, push the TV/computer "off" button, melt down at the grocery store, bite others, keep their adult rooms messy).

 

Given the ages of your kids, I'd:

 

Limit TV/screen time.

Have a routine each day.

Have age appropriate and growing responsibilities.

Have regular times in the day for "space".

Give them the emotional freedome to not like each other. They have to *be* courteous, and respectful, and cordial, but don't over-celebrate when they sem to "care" and don't punish when they don't.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Have you considered that since it's between them, it's their frustration with each other - that whomever does something to the other, then that person who has something done to them or their stuff is allowed to decide what the consequence is?

 

For example, if you DS throws your DD's stuffed animal across the room - your DS has just bought himself a consequence his sister decides on....like she decides he doesn't get to watch television for the next 24-hours, or something like that. Since they both know each other well and know what the other would not want to lose - maybe give some empowerment to the person wronged by letting them dole out the consequence, with you simply being mediator (ie. if one of them chooses something ridiculous, you get to say, try again).

 

That's a good idea. I also like the idea of making them "bless" each other if they have been the perpetrator.

[Joanne]

I thought not letting them ride any rides at an amusement park on a vacation was pretty intense. But, still, it happens...*sigh*

 

I agree that the consequences need to be something that will leave an impression for next time. The problem is, I started out with the park privilege being taken away, and they also had to serve each other for a day. And yet, the next time my dd was frustrated, she kicked....

 

I guess I shouldn't say that I started out mild, because on this one I really didn't. But the consequence I used hasn't cut out the behavior yet. Do you have any suggestions? Is it just a matter of needing more severe consequences?

 

Please, I am begging you. :001_huh::confused: Consider getting OFF the consequence train. My heart broke when you posted about the day at the amusement park where they were spectators.

 

One of the many problems with thinking *punitively* on this one is that you have to keep thinking in terms of progressive punishment.

 

If you want to consider a whole other paradigm, let me know.

[Nakia]

I can't believe I'm going to wade into this subject again.

 

IMO both need to know that you or dh will take care of the offender. If your ds does something to aggravate dd then dd needs to tell you as the person in authority over ds what has occurred and you need to dole out whatever are the dire consequences in your family.

 

Likewise if your dd does something to aggravate ds then ds should come to you as the person who is in authority over dd and you will dole out the appropriate dire consequences.

 

Unfortunately for your son there is a double standard in our society. Boys do not hit girls ever. He needs to know that 1.) he will suffer a greater consequence for hitting a girl and 2.) most importantly that you will back him up 100% if his sister aggravates him to the point that he is about to lose it.

 

Not coming to you (or dh) should have a greater consequence to start out. Say ds punches favorite stuffy, dd must come to you or her consequence for hitting/kicking ds will be greater than ds's for offending dd. And vice-versa. So say you use chores as consequences. Ds then has to clean out trash cans for being aggravating. But dd will have to do a chore for her brother and do a chore for you like cleaning the bathroom. (Whatever works in your family.)

 

Hopefully once they realize that they get in more trouble for not coming to you, they will stop taking matters into their own hands. At that point when ds rips off doll heads and dd comes to tell you about it she can sit smugly by while ds hands over his allowance to pay for new dolls.

 

Great post, Chucki, but I have a question. If the parents constantly intervene and settle every squabble, how do the kids ever learn to settle their own arguments? I definitely don't condone violence or destruction of another's property, and I agree that needs to be stopped before it starts. But I would honestly like to hear your (and other posters') opinion about letting the children settle their own disagreements. I just ask because it is such a fine line and so hard to walk. We don't have the hitting and destruction (except very very rarely from the youngest), but we do have the squabbles very often.

 

Thanks!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Great post, Chucki, but I have a question. If the parents constantly intervene and settle every squabble, how do the kids ever learn to settle their own arguments? I definitely don't condone violence or destruction of another's property, and I agree that needs to be stopped before it starts. But I would honestly like to hear your (and other posters') opinion about letting the children settle their own disagreements. I just ask because it is such a fine line and so hard to walk.

Thanks!

 

You talk them through "using their words" to settle things.

[Nakia]

You talk them through "using their words" to settle things.

 

Yes, we do that. I guess I just don't know when to let them handle it and when to step in to help. Ya know?

 

Oh, I did edit my post to make it clear I wasn't talking about hitting, destruction, etc.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

I can't believe I'm going to wade into this subject again.

 

IMO both need to know that you or dh will take care of the offender. If your ds does something to aggravate dd then dd needs to tell you as the person in authority over ds what has occurred and you need to dole out whatever are the dire consequences in your family.

 

Likewise if your dd does something to aggravate ds then ds should come to you as the person who is in authority over dd and you will dole out the appropriate dire consequences.

 

Unfortunately for your son there is a double standard in our society. Boys do not hit girls ever. He needs to know that 1.) he will suffer a greater consequence for hitting a girl and 2.) most importantly that you will back him up 100% if his sister aggravates him to the point that he is about to lose it.

 

Not coming to you (or dh) should have a greater consequence to start out. Say ds punches favorite stuffy, dd must come to you or her consequence for hitting/kicking ds will be greater than ds's for offending dd. And vice-versa. So say you use chores as consequences. Ds then has to clean out trash cans for being aggravating. But dd will have to do a chore for her brother and do a chore for you like cleaning the bathroom. (Whatever works in your family.)

 

Hopefully once they realize that they get in more trouble for not coming to you, they will stop taking matters into their own hands. At that point when ds rips off doll heads and dd comes to tell you about it she can sit smugly by while ds hands over his allowance to pay for new dolls.

 

Chucki!!!! HI!!! I'm so glad you ventured in to the subject again. I know it was not pleasant for you the last time. yikes... I like your advice and your point of view, so please - wade on in!!!

 

I agree with your ideas. I like the idea of chores. I need to think of some really yucky ones - ideas?

 

The problem I have with the idea of them coming to me is this...that works great as a child in this home, but it does not help them know how to deal with this in other situations where there may not be an authority to handle the situation. I'm wanting to not only have peace in my home and have them learn to treat each other well, I also want to give them life long tools to know how to deal with something that makes them mad or upset. The problem is, I'm not sure I know what those are for myself! When someone upsets you, what do you do? Especially if you need to deal with it yourself? I guess I'd like my dd to have an appropriate response to her feelings, and then come and let me know what happened so that I can deal with it too.

 

Any suggestions on what to teach kids on how to handle and respond to their feelings of anger or frustration?

 

Thanks again, Chucki, for joining the conversation! :001_smile:

[lovelaughs_times_three]

I agree with much of what has already been said. However, I would add to this the idea of avoiding the problem in the first place. When do they *start* to aggravate each other?

 

Are they hungry?

 

Do they need protein?

 

Do they need some outdoor time?

 

Do they need physical exercise?

 

Are they bored?

 

I noticed mine started to aggravate each other at a certain time. We started going for a walk at that time, followed by a snack. It helped a lot.

 

Hmmmm....I've never noticed. I'll have to start paying more attention to see if there is a pattern.

 

They are both really funny. My oldest daughter and husband call them the "old married couple." They LOVE to play together and really get along - until they don't! :D

[Runningmom80]

Please, I am begging you. :001_huh::confused: Consider getting OFF the consequence train. My heart broke when you posted about the day at the amusement park where they were spectators.

 

One of the many problems with thinking *punitively* on this one is that you have to keep thinking in terms of progressive punishment.

 

If you want to consider a whole other paradigm, let me know.

 

 

 

I would love to consider a whole other paradigm, please go on!

 

And, if I do everything right to stop the hitting, but it still happens, do I not give a consequence? (if I'm not thinking punitively?)

 

 

It's only my older ds, he hits dh mostly, but sometimes the twins and I. :(

[lovelaughs_times_three]

I'm glad that the fights are getting less intense. Actually immediate was my word but severe wasn't. Look for my later post where I suggested tomato staking them. Proactively trying to keep them from starting the fights to begin with is where I would spend more of my time.

 

Ok..I'm embarrassed to ask, but what is "tomato staking"? I saw it in a thread a few months ago, and I asked then too. But the response was just a :lol:, and I was to embarrassed to admit that I wasn't joking, I really didn't know!! :D

[justamouse]

What's the root of it? Do they get tired of being in each other's company?

 

Are they jealous of each other?

 

Do you hear Not Fair a lot?

 

What is making him so mad at her that he wants to make her mad? And in turn, what is making her so mad at him that she wants to make him mad? Because they are getting mad enough to take pleasure in hurting each other.

 

THAT'S what I would deal with.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Please, I am begging you. :001_huh::confused: Consider getting OFF the consequence train. My heart broke when you posted about the day at the amusement park where they were spectators.

 

One of the many problems with thinking *punitively* on this one is that you have to keep thinking in terms of progressive punishment.

 

If you want to consider a whole other paradigm, let me know.

 

Well, that's kind of why I'm posting. I don't think the consequence thing alone, is working. And I don't think it is giving them long-term tools for dealing with anger/frustration. But, I need help knowing how to communicate appropriate tools.

 

Consequences may be needed...but I think there is more to this than just that approach.

 

By the way, it broke my heart too. It was one of those times that I felt like I needed to make a strong and obvious point. But I love my kids, and I was frustrated that we couldn't just all have a good time. My kids, by the way, handled it with grace. We have taught them (in other situations) to always see the bright side of things. They were such troopers, actually enjoying watching us ride, and telling me that this was "not that bad". :D

[Mandy in TN]

First- tomato stake the little turkeys. Keep them within arms reach of you.

 

When mine were little, I used to make them hold hands and tell how much they loved the other and why.

 

You don't have long to fix this. Once ds hits puberty it will be much, much harder.

 

Honestly, I am also a double standard kind of gal who grew up with a passel of brother/step-brothers. If it were two boys or two girls close in size, I wouldn't be nearly as concerned as I am hearing that a brother treats his little sister this way. My boys and brothers know/ knew that you don't lay a hand on a female.

 

Tell him to treat his sister the way he would have wanted you or his grandma or his aunt (some female relative who is very close to) treated. I would come down twice as hard on him as his little sister for a physical altercation. Why? Because- explain that in reality land as an adult her actions may be viewed as self defense, but, if he hits or kicks a woman, the likehood of it being viewed as anything other than assault is slim. Teach him to come to you immediately if she tries to make a disagreement physical. (Right now this won't happen, because they won't be away from you. When I say tomato stake, I mean that I would even be taking that young lady to the toliet with me and having the young man sit outside until this is resolved.)

 

Geeze, I can't stand it when I feel that I am put in a situation where I need to micromanage my children's relationships with each other. I strongly prefer that they build their own bonds without me. This situation of an older brother (am I seeing this correctly 9yo) allowing himself to take part in a physical confrontation with a younger sister (who is 7yo) is so totally unexceptable that I would intervene in immediately, and, as long as they continued to act like toddlers, I wouldn't let them be alone.

 

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

Jean in Wisc has the best blog post ever about tomato staking.

Mandy

[lovelaughs_times_three]

What's the root of it? Do they get tired of being in each other's company?

 

Are they jealous of each other?

 

Do you hear Not Fair a lot?

 

What is making him so mad at her that he wants to make her mad? And in turn, what is making her so mad at him that she wants to make him mad? Because they are getting mad enough to take pleasure in hurting each other.

 

THAT'S what I would deal with.

 

Hmmm....not sure. I think it is most often that the older brother does things that dd does not like. Sometimes he is teasing her on purpose for fun. Sometimes he is just not moving as fast as she thinks he should. I don't think he necessarily wants to "make her mad", I think they just like to tease and play and have fun and then someone takes it "too far" and the other gets mad. Or sometimes it is a disagreement on how to "play a game" and one says, "I'm not going to play with you." and it escalates.

[Mandy in TN]

Read this site and take from it what works for your family.

Mandy

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Jean in Wisc has the best blog post ever about tomato staking.

Mandy

 

Thanks! That helped!

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Thanks for all the wonderful advice!!! It has really helped me to know how to help my kids treat each other with love and respect.

 

I still need this advice, though....

 

I want to use this as an opportunity to teach them how to deal with their own feelings of anger and frustration. What do you do as an adult when you are angry? Sometimes the answer is walking away, sometimes you have to confront a situation. What tools do you use, as an adult, to deal with anger/frustration and aggravating situations in a healthy way? I want teach my kids these tools. I'm not sure I have them to give.

 

Still all :bigear:s to the wisdom of so many here!

 

Thanks! :001_smile:

[sweetTN]

My instinct here is to have them "re-do" each and every unacceptable situation with you. You will spend a week or two doing a LOT of on-the-minute coaching, but it will be worth every second.

 

--State briefly what was unacceptable.

 

--State what they will do for the "re-do."

 

--Re-do it. Then re-do it again. You might even go for a third re-do if you don't think the heart is there yet.

 

--End with something like a schmaltzy mom-hug of both kids and tell them you'll be glad to walk it through with them as many times as needed.

 

You'll also want to have a talk with the kids ahead of time. "Kids, it's so sad that you hurt each other. You're going to be family for the rest of your life, so you might as well learn to be friends. From now on, when I see you showing unkindness to your sibling, I'll be right there to help you learn kindness instead. I'll just simply ask you to re-do the situation the way it should have been."

 

Your talk will bring smiles and giggles if you enlist your husband to help. Role-play a little drama together, then re-do it the way it should be done.

 

We call this a 'do over' in our home. Dd, the only child at home, has been known to 'do over'...many, many times... how she leaves a room (stomping up the stairs, mumbling), unkind words, or just unacceptable behavior in general. And yes, it always ends with giggles and an apology. Works like a charm!

[Parrothead]

Great post, Chucki, but I have a question. If the parents constantly intervene and settle every squabble, how do the kids ever learn to settle their own arguments? I definitely don't condone violence or destruction of another's property, and I agree that needs to be stopped before it starts. But I would honestly like to hear your (and other posters') opinion about letting the children settle their own disagreements. I just ask because it is such a fine line and so hard to walk. We don't have the hitting and destruction (except very very rarely from the youngest), but we do have the squabbles very often.

 

Thanks!

Maybe with a little maturity they will figure it out. Right now though waiting for them to work it out isn't working.

[2squared]

Great post, Chucki, but I have a question. If the parents constantly intervene and settle every squabble, how do the kids ever learn to settle their own arguments? I definitely don't condone violence or destruction of another's property, and I agree that needs to be stopped before it starts. But I would honestly like to hear your (and other posters') opinion about letting the children settle their own disagreements. I just ask because it is such a fine line and so hard to walk. We don't have the hitting and destruction (except very very rarely from the youngest), but we do have the squabbles very often.

 

Thanks!

 

I think it's just like anything else you train them for. If you tell them often enough to shut the door when they leave the house, eventually....days...weeks...years...they will start doing it without any reminding.

 

My dc are young, and I intervene a lot with their squabbles. When I enter the forray, they start over from the start, but this time with me helping them remember how the conversation should develop. If we get to the point where one dc should be giving in and doesn't, I help/force that dc to do the right thing. I do see the olders applying the training at times, so I know we will eventually come out on the other side.

 

I will note that the best training comes if I can intervene before it become a full-blown squabble. I suppose that's where tomato staking or get off you butt parenting comes into play.

 

Now, if I let them settle their own squabbles, either the oldest always wins because she's the best verbal squabbler or the oldest boy always wins because he's the most physical. My oldest boy usually yields to my oldest daughter. If I leave them to settle their own squabbles, I am essentially allowing birth order to dictate power positions in our family.

[Parrothead]

Chucki!!!! HI!!! I'm so glad you ventured in to the subject again. I know it was not pleasant for you the last time. yikes... I like your advice and your point of view, so please - wade on in!!!

Okay, here goes.

 

I agree with your ideas. I like the idea of chores. I need to think of some really yucky ones - ideas?

No, unfortunately. We don't use chores for consequences. Maybe you can start a new thread so answers don't get buried here. Just ask for suggestions. I'm sure you'll get more than you'll ever use.

 

The problem I have with the idea of them coming to me is this...that works great as a child in this home, but it does not help them know how to deal with this in other situations where there may not be an authority to handle the situation. I'm wanting to not only have peace in my home and have them learn to treat each other well, I also want to give them life long tools to know how to deal with something that makes them mad or upset. The problem is, I'm not sure I know what those are for myself! When someone upsets you, what do you do? Especially if you need to deal with it yourself? I guess I'd like my dd to have an appropriate response to her feelings, and then come and let me know what happened so that I can deal with it too.

Like I said to Nakia above, right now it seems they need you to settle these thing. They don't have the ability (maturity) to figure things out for themselves. And quite frankly, if by chance they are like my brother and I they are tormenting each other for the sheer joy of doing so. It could be they aren't, but it sounds like they may be. If by chance this is the case, they probably need less free time.

 

By all means give them tools and role play scenarios to help teach proper reactions. And positively reinforce them when they remember to use the tools.

 

At their ages, how often are they not close to an authority figure (mom, dad, teacher, babysitter, grandparents) to help work out problems?

 

As adults we have our own tools with dealing with anger and frustration. Me? I clean. Dh broods. Other people vent. Most kids eventually grow up to have these coping mechanisms in their dealing with life arsenal. You could have your kids go run off their mad. Or you can listen to them as they talk it out. Or have them go to their room (sanctuary) so they can brood in private.

 

Any suggestions on what to teach kids on how to handle and respond to their feelings of anger or frustration?

See above.

 

Thanks again, Chucki, for joining the conversation! :001_smile:

Good luck

[bnbacademy]

I will note that the best training comes if I can intervene before it become a full-blown squabble. I suppose that's where tomato staking or get off you butt parenting comes into play.

 

Now, if I let them settle their own squabbles, either the oldest always wins because she's the best verbal squabbler or the oldest boy always wins because he's the most physical. My oldest boy usually yields to my oldest daughter. If I leave them to settle their own squabbles, I am essentially allowing birth order to dictate power positions in our family.

 

I have noticed this too. I may like the idea of them "using words, not fists", but then the more verbal/ articulate boy wins every time. I haven't figured out exactly how to avoid this, but to allow big brother the opportunity to do the right thing by little brother as a do-over. So the "talking it out" with me sometimes helps with perspective.

 

I also noticed a pattern of playing roughly which invariably turned to squabbling everyday, just before dh comes home/I'm fixing supper. I started enforcing an alone/quiet/reading time and small snack right about then every school day. That helped!

Edited August 3, 2011 by bnbacademy