What do you make of this mysterious experience? (CC)

[Carol in Cal.]

To me, "causing" and "allowing" tragedy are essentially the same for a person with all Authority and Power. So, I have authority over my children - if I placed my toddler in the middle of a street and they were struck by a car, well then, that is malicious; I caused the accident and it's true I don't want that to be the way God works. Yet, if I stand idly by, watching my toddler wander into the middle of the street, where they are struck by a car, that is negligent; I allowed the accident to happen and this is not a greatly improved view of God. We also know that God's will can include horrors, as that is The Main Event of the gospel, and we have it from Jesus that it was His Will.

 

From my human, motherly perspective, there isn't any "good" that could come out of her death that would be worth losing Lydia. I am certain every childless parent feels the same. Nobody wants to hang out in the fire, nevermind if it refines.

 

I don't *want* to believe that God wanted Lydia to die, or that He predetermined that her lifespan would be zero days outside the womb. But any notion of God having to "go along with" this event that He didn't want is a non sequitur. Either God can avert disaster, but doesn't for reasons we are not permitted to know yet, or God cannot avert disaster. Neither view is particularly attractive to me, just FTR.

 

Quill, I'm so sorry about Lydia. It's horrible. It's exactly the worst thing I can imagine.

 

I gently add that I agree with Mrs. Mungo.

I feel a big difference between 'allowed' and 'caused'.

 

My view is that the whole world is effected by sin. It's Fallen. That has brought in death, and destruction, and illness--all the things that we leave behind in Heaven--things that were not present in God's original creation. So I view the results of sin, as well as sin itself, as contrary to God's holy will, but not something that He prevents unless He makes us all into robots. He didn't start that way, and He doesn't continue that way. Some of that authority and power that He has are delegated to us, and we are tainted by sin, and live in a world that likewise is so tainted. That means that bad stuff happens. Really, really bad stuff.

 

Regarding the death of Christ, that was God's will, yes, but Christ volunteered for the job, for a greater good, for the greatest good. When He said, "It is finished!" it was a cry of final victory. He accomplished what He wanted to, and it was hard. Even for Him.

 

No one would argue, that I know of, that the 'good' that could possibly come out of Lydia's tragic death is better than the good of her being alive and growing up with you. :grouphug: If anyone tried to, other than you yourself, the bereaved, I would be hard pressed to respond with anything but harpy-level fury. Yet I believe that God can bring some good out of anything, and that although it might not equal the bad, there is some good in there, but that that does not, most emphatically does not mean that Lydia's death was good. Not at all. It absolutely wasn't. Jesus did not weep at Lazarus' death just to keep people company; instead, He grieved with them. He's grieved for you, and grieving with you, all the way, is what I believe.

 

I don't think that we can understand everything on earth logically. When we can't, we sometimes have heavy burdens of acceptance. "Now I see through a glass, darkly, but there I shall see in full."

 

I'm so sorry she died. It's tragic and awful. God loves her and you, too.

 

:grouphug:

Edited July 2, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[elegantlion]

:grouphug:

Edited July 1, 2011 by elegantlion

[GardenTenders/Kim]

Some Christians believe bad things happen in the world and God can make good things happen from them, but that doesn't mean he *wanted* your precious baby, Lydia, to be taken from you.

 

Instead of thinking of it as God *causing* bad things to happen, think of God's will as allowing bad things to happen. Because actions in and of the world have consequences.

:grouphug:

 

This is what I have had to decide. When my father was tragically killed everyone said it was God's time, etc. I was very close to my dad and I had to come to grips with the fact that they were not being mean spirited but unknowing and didn't understand that "Allowing" and "will" are not the same, if that makes sense. Why would God WILL a man to die leaving behind a loving family when so many mean and corrupt people live to be very old. Why would a child molester get to live where my father had to die? I struggled so hard with these questions and the answers I got were little comfort.

 

Allowing is not the same as Will. Sometimes things happen and in our finite minds we can't understand why. We will never know, in this lifetime. I can't ever believe in my heart that God wills a baby to die, or a good and Godly man to be killed by another, what I do believe is that He allows it to happen, for whatever purpose He allows it to happen and then He makes something good come out the ashes. Maybe the good wont be seen for years down the road. Maybe your talking about it will do some good for another going through a similar situation. Maybe we will never see the good, but I know that God is just.

 

:grouphug:

[Mrs Mungo]

From my human, motherly perspective, there isn't any "good" that could come out of her death that would be worth losing Lydia. I am certain every childless parent feels the same. Nobody wants to hang out in the fire, nevermind if it refines.

 

I understand. It is really hard being only a human. None of us are really very good at it. :grouphug:

 

don't *want* to believe that God wanted Lydia to die, or that He predetermined that her lifespan would be zero days outside the womb. But any notion of God having to "go along with" this event that He didn't want is a non sequitur. Either God can avert disaster, but doesn't for reasons we are not permitted to know yet, or God cannot avert disaster. Neither view is particularly attractive to me, just FTR.

 

My children don't always understand why I do things either. Why do I say yes to this request and no to that one? My experience on earth is miniscule compared to God's, but I have more than my kids. There is no analogy that is fit to use to try and explain away such a painful loss. I wish we had more answers.

[Nakia]

I am so sorry about your baby girl, Quill. My Emma was born in 2003, and I am just sitting here thinking about what my life would be like without her, and I can't even imagine. I pray God shows you the answers and your faith grows stronger every day. I also pray that you let go of what that man said to you. God bless you, sweetie. :grouphug:

[kristinannie]

I don't have time to read all of the responses, but here are my 2 cents. First of all, God never does things to punish us for loving something. God is love. Of course, God needs to be first in your life, but who isn't completely in love with a newborn baby???

 

This question is something that I have been struggling with for a long time. I finally found my answers in Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence. It is written from a Catholic perspective, but I think that any Christian can benefit from reading this book. The first chapter posits that God not only allows bad things to happen to us, but partners in it. I almost stopped reading this book at this point because I was so horrified that God could actually play a role in bad things happening to us (he does not participate in the sin, but can partner with the sinner). However, as I continued reading, it really started to make sense to me and the truth started to come into my heart. The things that happen to us in life, directed by God, are the things that are necessary for our salvation. God wants us to be with him in Heaven for eternity. God does not punish us. However, God does allow us to be in different situations for our spiritual growth. There is a reason why this happened. It might not be apparent to you yet. You may not even understand it until you are in Heaven, but there will be some good that will come out of this terrible loss.

 

Honestly, it is really hard to grow spiritually when everything is easy in life. My biggest times of spiritual growth have occurred during the worst periods of my life. It is really hard to guess at God's intentions. Unfortunately, only God can see everything and really understands why things happen. All we can do is accept it and continue to love God.

 

As for words from other people, God can speak through people, but the devil can as well. This might not have been either one and could have just been this man's opinion. You will have to pray for discernment from God concerning His reasoning in your life.

 

On a side note, I am so sorry to hear about what happened to you. I can only imagine the pain and suffering you have been through. Please know that I will pray for you.

[deacongirl]

I think this book does a really good job of addressing the will of God and why He allows tragic things to happen.

http://www.amazon.com/Will-God-Leslie-Weatherhead/dp/0687074827

[Saujana]

:grouphug:

I am so sorry for your pains.

[justamouse]

 

This question is something that I have been struggling with for a long time. I finally found my answers in Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence. It is written from a Catholic perspective, but I think that any Christian can benefit from reading this book.

 

*whispers* (that's a Charlotte Mason Formidable List for a Child of 6 (which I totally wanted to print out, btw))

 

I thought what Mrs. Mungo had to say was amazing and eloquent at the same time. :grouphug:

 

Father Barron on God, The Tsunami and the Problem of Evil. Yes, it's Catholic, but for me, it answered those questions I had had.

[obsidian]

*whispers* (that's a Charlotte Mason Formidable List for a Child of 6 (which I totally wanted to print out, btw))

 

 

I think this is it.:001_smile:

[MariannNOVA]

I agree with Mrs. Mungo--just a misguided man overgeneralizing his own experience.

 

:grouphug:

 

There's nothing Satan likes better than making the Christian doubt the goodness and intentions of God. Anything he can use to cause distrust of the Father thrills him to no end. He doesn't care about hurting YOU, he cares about hurting GOD by hurting you--because you matter so much to and are so precious to God. Do you see? God loves you and your child. He loves this misguided man, too, and perhaps will allow someone to teach him more completely.

 

:grouphug:

 

You had never heard of that delivery company before' date=' probably because it was new.

 

You have never heard of that delivery company again, probably because it went out of business quickly. The guy had no repeat business because nobody wanted to hear his sermons.[/quote']

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I am so very sorry, my dear....so very sorry that your baby died and you are hurting so much.

[Mrs Mungo]

I just cannot believe in predestination. I cannot believe everything happens according to God's will. Losing a child is terrible. I cannot imagine how painful that must be. But there are and have been worse things in this world. Atrocities perpetrated in God's name. I cannot believe that is what He willed.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I havn't read the other replies yet, but I think that the guy was crazy. Religious persecution and fanaticism sometimes plays itself out in psych issues. (and, no don't read that to mean that "anybody who is religious is psychotic!!!)

 

Try hard not to give it a second thought. It was the ranting of a lunatic, imo. :grouphug:

[Peela]

T "Whatever you love more than God, THAT is what he will take from you!!!"

 

 

Eventually everything in this life is taken from us and i don't think thats very personal. Its just the way its set up. This realm is temporary.

 

I think you were vulnerable and he played on a tiny bit of guilt and doubt in your mind, that somehow you had done something to "deserve" the death of your baby. That it might have been your fault. Perhaps he came into your life to help you realise how unloving towards yourself, that thought is.

 

It is my experience that divine messages are usually a lot more subtle than how that man behaved and what he said.

[silliness7]

The Bible says in Revelation that Satan is "the accuser of the brethren."

I don't have my Bible here, but in that passage it says that he (satan) works to accuse the brethren day and night -- any chance he gets through any means (this idiot man, in this case).

 

This man's words made you feel accused and like some sin (this idiot-man's implication) brought about God's punishment. I wonder if he's even a believer at all given this screwed up understanding of God/grace/the gospel. To imply that we're still having to work for salvation and get it right and be perfect lest God deal us a mean blow is completely opposite of the GOOD NEWS.

 

I too have heard this false brand of Christianity:

good works -- prosperity/God's grace as manifested by no suffering

bad works -- God deals you a mighty blow

and it's just heresy.

 

Loving your daughter is of God and is certainly not idolatry.

And, even if you or I have some form of idolatry or sin in our hearts/lives, then this is certainly not the way Christ deals with it because He has already DEALT with it on the cross once and for all.

 

Don't let Satan accuse you through this dude anymore.

 

:iagree:

:grouphug: I'm sorry for your loss and I'm sorry this man hurt you with his false words.

 

ETA: I recently read a book called When Life And Beliefs Collide. I cried through many parts of it and I have not been through anything nearly as painful as you. But oftentimes it *is* difficult reconciling the bad stuff that happens to us. And I actually think it was HARDER for me when I came to understand God's sovereignty more fully. Yet I believe as you do there is not much difference between causing and allowing. This book was helpful to me. It asks tough questions and gives tough answers. It helped me see my need to know God better. Painful circumstances had caused me to grow angry and when that faded it was replaced with apathy. I found it hard to trust God and believe in His goodness while also feeling that He had let me down.

Edited July 2, 2011 by silliness7

[WishboneDawn]

Loving each other is part of how we express our love for God. It is not different and distinct from our love of God, it is one in the same.

 

Your love for your daughter was an expression of you love for God, of a creation of His and a gift of His to you. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that love.

 

The man was neither Satan nor God. He was just a man with some strange ideas and little regard for who his ramblings might hurt.

[Hen]

oh wow, cyber hugs.

 

two things come to my mind:

 

“I have loved you with an eternal love, therefore, with loving kindness have I drawn thee.†Jer 31:3

 

"He will feed his flock as a Shepherd; in His arm He will gather the lambs; in His bosom He will carry them. He will lead those who are nursing the young." Isaiah 40:11

 

God loves us with gentle, loving kindness- and the verse in Isaiah says that He goes at the pace of the flock, His leading/correcting/adjusting is neither too fast or too slow, but it's at the pace of the flock He shepherds- this includes the pace of the lambs [the young] and those nursing the young. He gathers the very young, who cannot keep up, in His arms.

 

it's a picture of a love that is gentle and waits for you, not punitive.

 

I agree with Mrs. Mungo earlier, we have All lost those we loved deeply, it's part of the human condition and something to be led through and hopefully grow stronger through, but it's not punishment for love.

 

Love is kind, and perfect love casts out all fear.

 

I am so sorry for your loss

:grouphug:

[kristinannie]

*whispers* (that's a Charlotte Mason Formidable List for a Child of 6 (which I totally wanted to print out, btw))

 

I thought what Mrs. Mungo had to say was amazing and eloquent at the same time. :grouphug:

 

Father Barron on God, The Tsunami and the Problem of Evil. Yes, it's Catholic, but for me, it answered those questions I had had.

 

 

OOPS!!!!!! :blushing:

[mom31257]

[quote name=justamouse;2889650I thought what Mrs. Mungo had to say was amazing and eloquent at the same time. :grouphug:

 

Father Barron on God, The Tsunami and the Problem of Evil. Yes, it's Catholic, but for me, it answered those questions I had had.

 

That was amazing to watch. Thanks so much for posting it!

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I'm so sorry you lost your daughter. I lost a baby at only 8 weeks and the pain is still so great. I'm very thankful for my Catholic faith, because (1) I recognize that the reason death and sickness, etc, exist is due to the fall in the garden. There is no other explanation needed. and (2) I give purpose to my suffering by offering it to God as prayers for other people, particularly for babies to be saved from abortion.

 

You thinking about this man reminds me of when I think about past mistakes from long ago. The devil likes to try to get me back to that place. The devil wants nothing more than to shake your focus and make you think that you did something to cause the loss.

 

I've really wanted to have my church join October 15th and have a service, and this story is good for me to read. I'm going to get back on top of that.

http://www.october15th.com/

support for pregnancy and infant loss

[Mommyfaithe]

:grouphug: I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them. :grouphug:

 

:iagree::iagree:

:grouphug::grouphug:

[TXMomof4]

I'm going to say this a little warily back! ;)

 

To me, "causing" and "allowing" tragedy are essentially the same for a person with all Authority and Power. So, I have authority over my children - if I placed my toddler in the middle of a street and they were struck by a car, well then, that is malicious; I caused the accident and it's true I don't want that to be the way God works. Yet, if I stand idly by, watching my toddler wander into the middle of the street, where they are struck by a car, that is negligent; I allowed the accident to happen and this is not a greatly improved view of God. We also know that God's will can include horrors, as that is The Main Event of the gospel, and we have it from Jesus that it was His Will.

 

From my human, motherly perspective, there isn't any "good" that could come out of her death that would be worth losing Lydia. I am certain every childless parent feels the same. Nobody wants to hang out in the fire, nevermind if it refines.

 

I don't *want* to believe that God wanted Lydia to die, or that He predetermined that her lifespan would be zero days outside the womb. But any notion of God having to "go along with" this event that He didn't want is a non sequitur. Either God can avert disaster, but doesn't for reasons we are not permitted to know yet, or God cannot avert disaster. Neither view is particularly attractive to me, just FTR.

 

Here's where I go with the causing/allowing thing. You don't know what your child's life would have been like. You don't know what would have happened in her lifetime. Even if she had the most excellent life ever known to man - can that compare with one day with God? Your daughter is not hurting. She is not sad. She is not suffering. You are entirely correct that we can't understand the reasoning behind losing a child, but I can completely trust that your child is in a better place right now for her than she ever could have been in this life. Maybe it wasn't a matter of allowing something bad to happen, but preventing something worse during her life?

 

I sent you a link to a friend's blog - I'm not sure if you saw it or not. Basically this couple had a stillborn son. It is devastating. They are the most wonderful parents, the most amazing, Godly couple I've ever met. God took their baby from them - their only son. In the almost two years since then, little Chase has done immeasurable good. I have seen goodness come out of complete loss and misery. They have helped raise money to build homes at orphanages, provide services and supplies to orphanages, they have provided hope to many, many children because they lost theirs.

 

Does that make it easier for them? Not at all. They still lost their son. But they have seen the creation of something beautiful because of that loss.

 

Please don't think I'm lecturing or preaching. This family is just such an inspiration to me to remember to look forward. I don't have to understand the reasoning, but I do trust there is a reason.

[BamaTanya]

very useful thanks very much!

Reported.