Oxford drops the comma

[Tangerine]

STOP! Have no fear, lover of the Oxford comma. Lay down your banner! For the comma lives on! Always at the ready to clarify, separate, and divide.

 

http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/oxford-comma-dropped-by-university-of-oxford_b33357

 

Say it ain't so.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Tangerine
Hoax and whatnot.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

It is up to us to pick up the dropped flag and carry it ourselves, Tangerine.

 

I will never, ever, ever give up the Oxford comma.

 

Wine, women, and song. That looks right.

 

Wine, women and song. That looks like it is missing a comma.

[Running the race]

No way I'm going along with that!

[teeleigh2000]

I have always loved that comma...:sad:

[GoVanGogh]

As an old journalist, I say:

 

:hurray:

 

 

Even my son, 7 at the time, pointed out how redundant the Oxford comma is. In a list of items, the comma takes the place of the word "and" so using a comma and the word is like saying, "and and."

 

And now I'm :auto:

:D

[LizzyBee]

It is up to us to pick up the dropped flag and carry it ourselves, Tangerine.

 

I will never, ever, ever give up the Oxford comma.

 

Wine, women, and song. That looks right.

 

Wine, women and song. That looks like it is missing a comma.

 

:iagree:

[Tangerine]

It is up to us to pick up the dropped flag and carry it ourselves, Tangerine.

 

I will never, ever, ever give up the Oxford comma.

 

Wine, women, and song. That looks right.

 

Wine, women and song. That looks like it is missing a comma.

 

:lol: I'm with you.

 

"Will you join in our crusade?

Who will be strong and stand with me?"

 

I may just sing that every time I use the comma.

[DarlaS]

It is up to us to pick up the dropped flag and carry it ourselves, Tangerine.

 

I will never, ever, ever give up the Oxford comma.

 

Wine, women, and song. That looks right.

 

Wine, women and song. That looks like it is missing a comma.

 

I agree. This is perplexing, confusing, and wrong.

 

My son actually had a couple points taken off a college paper for using it back in the fall. I told him to tell her either way was acceptable (I think he decided arguing with his English prof. was a bad idea.). I guess she was "old school".

[aggieamy]

I'm pro-Oxford comma. It just doesn't look right without one. That is all. :001_smile:

 

It'll be interesting to see if this turns out to be a heated and controversial thread.

[Imprimis]

I can't do it. I need my serial commas! All of them.

 

We did use a grammar program (can't recall which one it was) a few years ago that taught it was optional to place a comma before the "and" in a series. I ignored that :glare:.

 

Commas, parentheses, and exclamation marks are some of my favorite writing tools! ;)

[Ester Maria]

Are you kidding me?!

I FINALLY got the habit of using that one in English in the past year, it has nearly become "okay" to me, I almost got used to it and almost got convinced of its inner logic - and now they CANCEL it?! :mad:

 

All my effort in vain. Sigh.

I knew I should have trusted my initial dislike of that comma and I never should have tried to adjust.

[Aubrey]

As an old journalist, I say:

 

:hurray:

 

 

Even my son, 7 at the time, pointed out how redundant the Oxford comma is. In a list of items, the comma takes the place of the word "and" so using a comma and the word is like saying, "and and."

 

And now I'm :auto:

:D

 

MLA dropped the comma to save INK. I think subjecting grammar rules to the Almighty Dollar is...well, terrible.

 

When I first learned this comma, the English teacher taught us both ways & she said it generally didn't matter which you chose UNLESS it's a legal situation:

 

Jim, Sue, and Bob inherit $300. Each one gets $100.

 

Jim, Sue and Bob inherit $300. Jim gets $150; Sue and Bob get $50 ea.

 

That clenched it for me. If I didn't mean for the last two items in my list to share a metaphorical inheritance, I used the comma (unless writing for the newspaper). It's essential. It has *meaning.*

 

ETA: Commas don't mean "and"! :lol: "John, Abby went to the store" means, "Hey, John! Abby went to the store!" Totally different from the concept of the two of them going to the store together. Commas *never* mean and!! :D

Edited June 30, 2011 by Aubrey

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

:lol: I'm with you.

 

"Will you join in our crusade?

Who will be strong and stand with me?"

 

I may just sing that every time I use the comma.

 

:lol: We need a song, a flag, and a spokesperson.

 

This is perplexing, confusing, and wrong.

 

 

:lol:

 

 

Commas, parentheses, and exclamation marks are some of my favorite writing tools! ;)

 

:lol:

 

You are all killing me. We should proclaim an Oxford Comma day during which no one may post anything without using it at least once.

[aggieamy]

So far it looks like most of us are not going to give up on the Oxford Comma and the discussions are still pretty civil. I'm going to stand by with pictures of kilts just in case this thread takes a turn for the worse though.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

MLA dropped the comma to save INK. I think subjecting grammar rules to the Almighty Dollar is...well, terrible.

 

 

 

You have got to be kidding me!!!! They didn't even offer to take up a collection? The Comma Ink fund?! I would have donated!

[lcelmer]

Well no wonder I can't remember which way it should be! I think "comma to replace and." Then the lists I write in sentences look wrong without it.

 

(I'm a Visual Learner who now has to figure out how to teach spelling & grammar)

Edited June 30, 2011 by lcelmer

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

So far it looks like most of us are not going to give up on the Oxford Comma and the discussions are still pretty civil. I'm going to stand by with pictures of kilts just in case this thread takes a turn for the worse though.

 

I'll come back and argue the other side later if no one else shows up to do it.

[lcelmer]

When I first learned this comma, the English teacher taught us both ways & she said it generally didn't matter which you chose UNLESS it's a legal situation:

 

Jim, Sue, and Bob inherit $300. Each one gets $100.

 

Jim, Sue and Bob inherit $300. Jim gets $150; Sue and Bob get $50 ea.

 

That clenched it for me. If I didn't mean for the last two items in my list to share a metaphorical inheritance, I used the comma (unless writing for the newspaper). It's essential. It has *meaning.*

 

 

I'm going with this argument... Thanks for sharing!

 

:D

[kewb]

It is up to us to pick up the dropped flag and carry it ourselves, Tangerine.

 

I will never, ever, ever give up the Oxford comma.

 

Wine, women, and song. That looks right.

 

Wine, women and song. That looks like it is missing a comma.

 

Count me in! I will help carry the flag.

[Annie G]

I don't think this old dog can learn this new trick.

[cajunrose]

Is it sad that I didn't even know what an oxford comma was? I THINK I was taught not to use one. The comma does not look right to me.

I drink water, coke and tea. That looks right.

I drink water, coke, and tea. That doesn't. hmmmm.

[Guest]

I was taught not to use it (Abeka in the 90's) and since I've started coming here, I've started using it. How am I ever supposed to teach my kids?!?

[DaffodilDreams]

I was taught to use it, and I will continue to use it. I cringe whenever I find it missing.

[FaithManor]

NEVER!

 

It is, has been, and always shall be.

 

I will carry the banner, I will keep the flame burning, the Oxford comma will live on and continue it's punctuatory load!

 

Faith

[Garga]

My dh and I argued about this awhile ago. We came to the conclusion that in non-academic writings, you do NOT use the comma. But in academic writings, you use the comma because only the academics seemed to realize it existed.

 

So, in my normal writing, I use it or not, as I feel led...but when I wrote my papers, I always used it.

[Spy Car]

Are you kidding me?!

I FINALLY got the habit of using that one in English in the past year, it has nearly become "okay" to me, I almost got used to it and almost got convinced of its inner logic - and now they CANCEL it?! :mad:

 

All my effort in vain. Sigh.

I knew I should have trusted my initial dislike of that comma and I never should have tried to adjust.

 

Others apart sat on a Hill retir'd,

In thoughts more elevate, and reason'd high

Of Providence, Foreknowledge, Will, and Fate,

Fixt Fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute,

And found no end, in wand'ring mazes lost.

 

~ John Milton (Paradise Lost)

 

Bill

[Qcaller]

In my youth I learned to always use that final comma. I liked the rule because I felt it avoided ambiguousness. Later I learned the new rule that it was OK to drop the comma when all items in the list were single words. The moment you use a two or more word phrase that comma was right back in there. That is the compromise I reluctantly followed with the physicians whose academic papers I used to edit in my old life.

 

I'm also the person who still puts two spaces between sentences when typing.

 

Once all y'all get that flag designed, I will raise it with pride!

(and yes "all y'all" is the plural of "y'all" around these parts ;) )

 

Pam

[Aubrey]

My dh and I argued about this awhile ago. We came to the conclusion that in non-academic writings, you do NOT use the comma. But in academic writings, you use the comma because only the academics seemed to realize it existed.

 

So, in my normal writing, I use it or not, as I feel led...but when I wrote my papers, I always used it.

 

That depends on the field. English/lit uses it. Psych does not. Hist depts follow Chicago style, but I can't remember if that includes the comma or not.

 

Personally, I think when it comes to matters of psychology, we should look to the psych dept (imagine if the English dept tried to tell dr's how to treat psychosis!), & when it comes to grammar, we should look to the English dept. It's only right & fair! :D

[Audrey]

As an old journalist, I say:

 

:hurray:

 

 

Even my son, 7 at the time, pointed out how redundant the Oxford comma is. In a list of items, the comma takes the place of the word "and" so using a comma and the word is like saying, "and and."

 

And now I'm :auto:

:D

 

 

:iagree: It is not often that I agree with abandoning any grammatical conventions, but this one is long overdue.

[Kertie]

Sigh. Sadly, I'm not surprised--can't remember where it came up or if I read it or a younger person said that's what they learned, but it has been taught prior to this. I will never give it up. It just makes sense. As for Oxford...well, after the OED adds OMG, what's a little comma?? Uffda.

[Ester Maria]

Others apart sat on a Hill retir'd,

In thoughts more elevate, and reason'd high

Of Providence, Foreknowledge, Will, and Fate,

Fixt Fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute,

And found no end, in wand'ring mazes lost.

 

~ John Milton (Paradise Lost)

 

Bill

Milton is :001_wub:, but the "logic" of that comma has always escaped me; not that I was inaware of its existence, but it has always been awkward for me. It just makes no sense to put it there, really (we are stingy with commas in my language :tongue_smilie:). And then I tried to go against my intuition and put it. And I ALMOST got to the point where I can put it and feel "normal" with the fact I put it. And then they cancel it.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

In my youth I learned to always use that final comma. I liked the rule because I felt it avoided ambiguousness. Later I learned the new rule that it was OK to drop the comma when all items in the list were single words. The moment you use a two or more word phrase that comma was right back in there. That is the compromise I reluctantly followed with the physicians whose academic papers I used to edit in my old life.

 

I'm also the person who still puts two spaces between sentences when typing.

 

Once all y'all get that flag designed, I will raise it with pride!

(and yes "all y'all" is the plural of "y'all" around these parts ;) )

 

Pam

 

I put the two spaces, too. I can't help it. I just typed sooooo many sentences on old Remingtons under the old rule.

[garddwr]

To me, the comma in a list means "pause"--and I still want that pause if there is an and. I'll keep using it.

[WagsWife]

I will never give that comma up!

 

If this sentence does not make a strong case for the serial comma...nothing does:

 

My Parents, Batman and Robin will be at the party. Umm...NO!

My Parents, Batman, and Robin will be at the party. Much better!

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I always thought it was logical because we speak with a pause at each of those places. Of course, my people are all from Indiana and Kentucky. We might think more slowly than some folks.

 

It would seem that quick-witted people might NOT need an Oxford comma when they speak, because once they have settled on the first two items in the list the third has long since suggested itself.

 

Some of us are still processing well into the speaking of the second item and require a pause before stating the third.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Dulcimeramy

[nukeswife]

MLA dropped the comma to save INK. I think subjecting grammar rules to the Almighty Dollar is...well, terrible.

 

When I first learned this comma, the English teacher taught us both ways & she said it generally didn't matter which you chose UNLESS it's a legal situation:

 

Jim, Sue, and Bob inherit $300. Each one gets $100.

 

Jim, Sue and Bob inherit $300. Jim gets $150; Sue and Bob get $50 ea.

 

That clenched it for me. If I didn't mean for the last two items in my list to share a metaphorical inheritance, I used the comma (unless writing for the newspaper). It's essential. It has *meaning.*

 

ETA: Commas don't mean "and"! :lol: "John, Abby went to the store" means, "Hey, John! Abby went to the store!" Totally different from the concept of the two of them going to the store together. Commas *never* mean and!! :D

 

I will never give that comma up!

 

If this sentence does not make a strong case for the serial comma...nothing does:

 

My Parents, Batman and Robin will be at the party. Umm...NO!

My Parents, Batman, and Robin will be at the party. Much better!

 

I will not give up that comma. To me not having it changes the meaning of the sentence just as the above two quotes show.

 

The only thing I find fault with is that in Aubrey's example I believe in the second sentence John would get $150, with Bob and Sue each getting $75 of that inheritance, not $50, unless the lawyer reading the will absconded with the last $50. :tongue_smilie:

Sorry, I couldn't help it, my inner smart a$$ came out there.

 

Now in Wagswife's quote I agree that the first sentence makes it look a bit like your parents are Batman and Robin, but adding a comma in another spot would truly clear up the dilemma.

My Parents, Batman and Robin, will be at the party. Holy Cool Parents Batman!

 

Sorry, I couldn't help it, my inner smart a$$ came out there.

Edited June 30, 2011 by nukeswife

[WagsWife]

In my youth I learned to always use that final comma. I liked the rule because I felt it avoided ambiguousness. Later I learned the new rule that it was OK to drop the comma when all items in the list were single words. The moment you use a two or more word phrase that comma was right back in there. That is the compromise I reluctantly followed with the physicians whose academic papers I used to edit in my old life.

 

I'm also the person who still puts two spaces between sentences when typing.

 

Once all y'all get that flag designed, I will raise it with pride!

(and yes "all y'all" is the plural of "y'all" around these parts ;) )

 

Pam

 

:iagree: I won't give that up either!

[Aquinas Academy]

*gasp**choke**splutter*:svengo::blink:

How could they!?

I'll help carry the flag.

[DarlaS]

So far it looks like most of us are not going to give up on the Oxford Comma and the discussions are still pretty civil. I'm going to stand by with pictures of kilts just in case this thread takes a turn for the worse though.

 

You do that. :thumbup1:

 

(You meant "men in kilts" right?)

[Imprimis]

I always thought it was logical because we speak with a pause at each of those places. Of course, my people are all from Indiana and Kentucky. We might think more slowly than some folks.

 

It would seem that quick-witted people might NOT need an Oxford comma when they speak, because once they have settled on the first two items in the list the third has long since suggested itself.

 

Some of us are still processing well into the speaking of the second item and require a pause before stating the third.

 

Exactly! (And, I'm not even from Indiana or Kentucky) :D

[aggieamy]

You do that. :thumbup1:

 

(You meant "men in kilts" right?)

 

Indeed. Kilts look better when displayed on a person rather than on a hanger.

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm also the person who still puts two spaces between sentences when typing.

 

 

 

Me too. It's hard to break myself of that, after having it drilled into my head more than 15 years ago. :glare: I can't drop that comma. Sign me up for flag carrying duties!

[aggieamy]

Wow. It's amazing what you can find with Google.

 

[Laura in CA]

And then they cancel it.

 

"They" is just the Oxford University Public Affairs department; this is *not* Oxford University Press, by the way. (Not that we have to do what they dictate anyway!)

Plus, has anyone read any British newspapers recently? I find it highly upsetting! :D Dropping the ending comma after a ... hmm, what is it called? a nominative appositive? ... is rampant. British newspapers, even the Times, are full of sentences such as

 

Barack Obama, president of the United States said today that ...

:glare::tongue_smilie:

 

Maybe they're saving ink there too ...? or just sloppy sloppy sloppy.

 

Sometimes the serial comma is confusing:

 

Sue, my sister, and I went to the beach.

 

Did three or two people go to the beach? So ... after working at an Ivy League university press for many years, where the serial comma was house style, I usually use it, but not when it leads to confusion.

 

~Laura

[Spy Car]

Milton is :001_wub:, but the "logic" of that comma has always escaped me; not that I was inaware of its existence, but it has always been awkward for me. It just makes no sense to put it there, really (we are stingy with commas in my language :tongue_smilie:). And then I tried to go against my intuition and put it. And I ALMOST got to the point where I can put it and feel "normal" with the fact I put it. And then they cancel it.

 

See post below.

 

To me, the comma in a list means "pause"--and I still want that pause if there is an and. I'll keep using it.

 

The "logic" of the comma is that it clues the reader to the beat of the language, specifically it indicates a slight pause.

 

In the sentence: "He enjoyed a breakfast of ham and eggs" there would not be a pause between "ham" and "eggs." But were the sentence : "He enjoyed a breakfast of ham, porridge, and eggs there would be slight pauses where there are commas. To write: "He enjoyed a breakfast of ham, porridge and eggs" would not reflect how one ought to read the line. And ultimately punctuation should serve readability (as well as clarity of thought).

 

Bill

Edited July 1, 2011 by Spy Car
Sometimes I really hate auto-correct

[Food4Thought]

I always found the Oxford comma to be redundant. Despite my love of commas, I think this change makes things less confusing.

 

:leaving:

[Parrothead]

MLA dropped the comma to save INK. I think subjecting grammar rules to the Almighty Dollar is...well, terrible.

 

When I first learned this comma, the English teacher taught us both ways & she said it generally didn't matter which you chose UNLESS it's a legal situation:

 

Jim, Sue, and Bob inherit $300. Each one gets $100.

 

Jim, Sue and Bob inherit $300. Jim gets $150; Sue and Bob get $50 ea.

 

That clenched it for me. If I didn't mean for the last two items in my list to share a metaphorical inheritance, I used the comma (unless writing for the newspaper). It's essential. It has *meaning.*

 

ETA: Commas don't mean "and"! :lol: "John, Abby went to the store" means, "Hey, John! Abby went to the store!" Totally different from the concept of the two of them going to the store together. Commas *never* mean and!! :D

Exactly!

Is it sad that I didn't even know what an oxford comma was? I THINK I was taught not to use one. The comma does not look right to me.

I drink water, coke and tea. That looks right.

I drink water, coke, and tea. That doesn't. hmmmm.

To me it looks like you drink two different kinds of drinks. You drink water. You mix your coke and tea for a drink.

 

I put the two spaces, too. I can't help it. I just typed sooooo many sentences on old Remingtons under the old rule.

Yes! Two spaces!

[Aubrey]

Wow. It's amazing what you can find with Google.

 

 

Not to be nit-picky, but if we're going to have a parade for a comma, the flag needs to be a comma, not an apostrophe. ;)

[Mommy22alyns]

Not to be nit-picky, but if we're going to have a parade for a comma, the flag needs to be a comma, not an apostrophe. ;)

 

 

Oops! So would that be Mrs. Mungo's flag? :D

[Aubrey]

"They" is just the Oxford University Public Affairs department; this is *not* Oxford University Press, by the way. (Not that we have to do what they dictate anyway!)

Plus, has anyone read any British newspapers recently? I find it highly upsetting! :D Dropping the ending comma after a ... hmm, what is it called? a nominative appositive? ... is rampant. British newspapers, even the Times, are full of sentences such as

 

Barack Obama, president of the United States said today that ...

:glare::tongue_smilie:

 

Maybe they're saving ink there too ...? or just sloppy sloppy sloppy.

 

Sometimes the serial comma is confusing:

 

Sue, my sister, and I went to the beach.

 

Did three or two people go to the beach? So ... after working at an Ivy League university press for many years, where the serial comma was house style, I usually use it, but not when it leads to confusion.

 

~Laura

 

But you can't say: "Sue, my sister and I went to the beach," either--again, THAT means, "Hey, Sue! My sister and I went to the beach!"

 

So the whole thing would need to be rephrased: "My sister, Sue, went to the beach with me." Of course, if a comma meant "and" then this would still be confusing. ;)

 

There are plenty of times when writing is unclear, with or without proper punctuation. There's no reason to blame that on the comma! :D