A Pragmatic Question About IQ Testing

[Spy Car]

I kind of hate the whole thing--or at least have decidedly mixed feeling about IQ testing--but attending a tour yesterday of one of our future middle school options re-affirmed my understanding that a "highly gifted" test score is a necessity for admission. This means pushing for a test to be administered at some point (schools do not like to do either the specialized individualized or group IQ-testing due to the expense) when the standardized testing they already undergo identifies children as "gifted" (in terms of getting them in GATE programs) but it is too blunt an instrument to distinguish children as "highly gifted."

 

So my question is what age/hallmarks of development or other issues should a parent consider before having their child tested. Our school district will (begrudgingly) give this test ONE TIME. Not more. They have a "bad day" and that is it.

 

My son is a very late 6 year old and will be a rising second grader. Next year is the first year he would be eligible for IQ testing. Only because this test could open (or close) doors to future educational options I want to be strategic about when we do this test.

 

Anyone have wisdom to share about "when" to have children tested and/or some of the factors I might consider. Right now it looks like the "window" is 2nd, 3rd, or 4th grades for reasons of bureaucratic necessity in our school district.

 

Thoughts?

 

Bill

[Dmmetler]

One option to consider-do you have private schools that do entrance testing? I'm seriously considering applying to one, not because I want my DD to go there, but because their test battery for entrance sounds really, really good :), and the application fee, which includes testing, is less than private psychologists charge, and wouldn't have the waiting list of the University. Around here, the testing the public schools do is, like their programming for GT kids, the bare minimum.

[regentrude]

No insight - I can only tell you that our school district does the testing in 3rd grade, which is when both my kids were tested.

[Spy Car]

One option to consider-do you have private schools that do entrance testing? I'm seriously considering applying to one, not because I want my DD to go there, but because their test battery for entrance sounds really, really good :), and the application fee, which includes testing, is less than private psychologists charge, and wouldn't have the waiting list of the University. Around here, the testing the public schools do is, like their programming for GT kids, the bare minimum.

 

The school district will not accept private IQ testing results. I asked. It has to be a "one time" district administered IQ test.

 

Bill

[matilda]

Have you looked on Hoagies gifted site? They have a whole section on testing.

 

Here are the things that you might ask the district:

1. What tests are given? Some tests are better when they are taken before the age of eight and others are better if you wait longer. If you know which tests they give, you can find out about the timing for yourself and not depend on the district's policies. The tests will be normed to the age of the child, so as long as you are within the window that the test covers, you should be fine. There is a caveat, though. If you have a late blooming child, you may want to wait longer. Although, if you are already looking into gifted middle school options for a six-year-old, you probably don't have a late bloomer.

2. What happens if your child doesn't pass? Do you have the option of private testing? Are you sure that they will never test again? This actually happened to us. My daughter didn't score high enough the first time for various reasons and we were able to test again because we had a teacher advocate for her.

3. Can you talk to the diagnostician? I got very different information about testing from the school vs. the people who actually administer the tests. They may be the best ones to talk to about when to test. It took me an hour on the phone with the district bureaucracy before I was able to find the number of the diagnostician.

 

Also, be aware that the process can be very long. Some school districts only have one testing period a year, and if you miss it, you are out of luck. In other districts, like mine, the whole process can take more than 9 months.

 

Good luck.

[Spy Car]

Have you looked on Hoagies gifted site? They have a whole section on testing.

 

I have not. But I will now, thank you! I am not up to speed on IQ testing.

 

Here are the things that you might ask the district:

1. What tests are given? Some tests are better when they are taken before the age of eight and others are better if you wait longer. If you know which tests they give, you can find out about the timing for yourself and not depend on the district's policies.

 

The district gives one (of two tests), either the individual WISC test, or the group Ravens test. The latter is more prevalent (cheaper) and supposedly the district decides which to give but I'm not sure if there is an avenue for parental influence or the input of a Principal (or not). The official line is: No.

 

I was told yesterday you do not have a choice and will not know which will be given when testing is indicated.

 

The tests will be normed to the age of the child, so as long as you are within the window that the test covers, you should be fine. There is a caveat, though. If you have a late blooming child, you may want to wait longer. Although, if you are already looking into gifted middle school options for a six-year-old, you probably don't have a late bloomer.

 

LOL. Yes, not a late bloomer. But a regular boy-boy in many ways. When "focused" (most of the time) I would have no concerns. But there is that fraction of the time when "focus" is very typical of the age.

 

2. What happens if your child doesn't pass? Do you have the option of private testing? Are you sure that they will never test again? This actually happened to us.

 

The policy is no re-testing. They used to re-test in extraordinary circumstances, but with the current budget woes it can be a triall to get then to test once. We are told "no re-tests" and no private testing. It is a "one shot deal."

 

My daughter didn't score high enough the first time for various reasons and we were able to test again because we had a teacher advocate for her.

 

Sounds rational (and thank goodness for your sake) but rationality is not always the hallmark of our school district.

 

3. Can you talk to the diagnostician? I got very different information about testing from the school vs. the people who actually administer the tests. They may be the best ones to talk to about when to test. It took me an hour on the phone with the district bureaucracy before I was able to find the number of the diagnostician.

 

I suppose I can try. School psychologist positions have been cut to the bone here so I have a feeling it won't be that easy. We do have GATE coordinator/Teachers who would be easy to speak with, but I follow your point that it is not the same thing.

 

Also, be aware that the process can be very long. Some school districts only have one testing period a year, and if you miss it, you are out of luck. In other districts, like mine, the whole process can take more than 9 months.

 

 

That is why I'm making my tight turns early ;)

 

I'm hoping to get some fore-knowledge now so I can navigate the system.

 

Thank you so much for your helpful information!

 

Bill

Edited June 9, 2011 by Spy Car

[Jen500]

Are you absolutely certain you can't use private testing results? My local school provided me with lots of misinformation about their gifted program. :tongue_smilie:

[Spy Car]

Are you absolutely certain you can't use private testing results? My local school provided me with lots of misinformation about their gifted program. :tongue_smilie:

 

No. This was what I was told by the head-administrator of the Magnet School.

 

I was incredulous, but she said it was a matter of "equity" and I had to bite my tongue :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[Runningmom80]

No. This was what I was told by the head-administrator of the Magnet School.

 

I was incredulous, but she said it was a matter of "equity" and I had to bite my tongue :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

That's crazy!

 

I have been hanging out on the davidson forum, and for the wisc, it seems like right around 6 is the best time to take it if you need a high score, but 7-9 is better for accuracy. (supposedly iq is more stable at that point.)

[Spy Car]

That's crazy!

 

I have been hanging out on the davidson forum, and for the wisc, it seems like right around 6 is the best time to take it if you need a high score, but 7-9 is better for accuracy. (supposedly iq is more stable at that point.)

 

Yes, I think it is crazy.

 

We do need a high score. I really don't see this as a "problem". Looking at the Ravens test samples it looks tailor-made to measure his kind of "intelligence" (whatever that means). But it is testing for things that play to his strong suit.

 

At this point "accuracy" is probably a bigger issue. I could see a thoughtless answer. So I guess I'm leaning towards 3rd Grade at this point, but our crazy school system has so many hoops one needs to jump through, including applying to Magnet Schools you hope not to be accepted to so one can accrue "points" towards admission, that one bad move can tangle Middle School and High School plans.

 

It is maddening and irrational. But I need to be able to play the game. Grrr.

 

Bill

[KAR120C]

I would go later rather than earlier. Especially since you're not dying to get something from it (placement-wise) right now. The problem with test ceilings, IMO, is much less of an issue overall than the problem with little kids being unreliable. I think an 8yo would be a good testing candidate on both sides of that -- young enough that you should get a full range of test score possibilities, well beyond what the school admissions require, and old enough that you're not too worried that he's going to goof off at just the wrong time.

[EKS]

A few thoughts--

 

If he might be tested with the Ravins, then you'll want to give your son as much practice with fill in the bubble tests as possible. One way to do this is to give him the CogAT at home. You could also add the ITBS. Administering these yourself will give you an idea of what kinds of issues he might have in a real testing situation. If you're planning to do the testing in 3rd grade, I'd do one round of testing now and one at the end of next year.

 

Something else to keep in mind--In my reading about IQ testing, I read somewhere that kids who are given a lot of enrichment at home will enter school with much higher IQs than those who don't. By much higher, I'm remembering something like 15 points. This gap closes quite a bit by third grade. I think this is why they say that IQ scores become more accurate (stable) at age 8. But in your situation, you may be able to take advantage of the enrichment factor.

 

Another idea--you could get him tested privately now to see what you're dealing with. If there are any problems, you have time to work on them. It also gives him experience with the test(s).

[Crimson Wife]

No. This was what I was told by the head-administrator of the Magnet School.

 

I was incredulous, but she said it was a matter of "equity" and I had to bite my tongue :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

I hate to sound like a cynic, but in these times of extremely tight CA school budgets, there's about a 99% chance that a large enough donation to the school's foundation will quietly get your private test results accepted whatever the "official" policy is.

[Crimson Wife]

If he might be tested with the Ravins, then you'll want to give your son as much practice with fill in the bubble tests as possible. One way to do this is to give him the CogAT at home. You could also add the ITBS. Administering these yourself will give you an idea of what kinds of issues he might have in a real testing situation. If you're planning to do the testing in 3rd grade, I'd do one round of testing now and one at the end of next year.

 

If your son is a PS student, you won't be able to administer the CogAt at home, sorry! The publisher only allows full-time homeschoolers to test and you have to sign a statement to that effect.

 

My suggestion would be to work through the Critical Thinking Press Visual Mind Benders books.

[catz]

I would go later rather than earlier. Especially since you're not dying to get something from it (placement-wise) right now. The problem with test ceilings, IMO, is much less of an issue overall than the problem with little kids being unreliable. I think an 8yo would be a good testing candidate on both sides of that -- young enough that you should get a full range of test score possibilities, well beyond what the school admissions require, and old enough that you're not too worried that he's going to goof off at just the wrong time.

 

:iagree: I think there is a reason why many districts screen at 3rd grade.

[jenbrdsly]

No. This was what I was told by the head-administrator of the Magnet School.

 

I was incredulous, but she said it was a matter of "equity" and I had to bite my tongue :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

I would guess that principal was full of it! In California, gifted education usually falls under special ed, for some reason. So technically, you could call an IEP, or Individual Education Plan for your child. That's usually only used for special education, but being gifted qualifies. It's highly unusual, but legit. For more info on IEPs see: http://teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/03/09/when-something-is-wrong/

To follow that logic, in an IEP for special ed, you can include private testing. Often if a school district is pressed for time or $, they will just adopt the private testing results, in lieu of their own testing. I've seen this done lots of times in IEP meetings.

So keep this idea in your back pocket. I would have responded to that principal by saying, "Gee, my son's unique learning needs are really not being met in his current school placement, which is too restrictive for him. Perhaps I should initiate the IEP process for him, so that we can all get on the same page about what my son needs? Or maybe you would just like to review the results of his private testing on your own and consider him for admission? His Stanford-Binnet results are really interesting."

On a side note, be thankful your district even has a GATE program. Southern California is a lot better than Northern California on that issue. In the Bay Area there are hardly any GATE programs left (or at least that was my experience 6 years ago.) There is a big push to say: "All kids are special and gifted. We can meet the needs of all students in a regular ed classroom."

Also, did you check out the SENG website? They will have lot's of information on testing. http://www.sengifted.org/

[jenbrdsly]

A few thoughts--

 

If he might be tested with the Ravins, then you'll want to give your son as much practice with fill in the bubble tests as possible. One way to do this is to give him the CogAT at home. You could also add the ITBS. Administering these yourself will give you an idea of what kinds of issues he might have in a real testing situation. If you're planning to do the testing in 3rd grade, I'd do one round of testing now and one at the end of next year.

 

Something else to keep in mind--In my reading about IQ testing, I read somewhere that kids who are given a lot of enrichment at home will enter school with much higher IQs than those who don't. By much higher, I'm remembering something like 15 points. This gap closes quite a bit by third grade. I think this is why they say that IQ scores become more accurate (stable) at age 8. But in your situation, you may be able to take advantage of the enrichment factor.

 

Another idea--you could get him tested privately now to see what you're dealing with. If there are any problems, you have time to work on them. It also gives him experience with the test(s).

 

Those are really good ideas. That Cogat7 is a nasty piece of work too!

 

I've heard two contradicting theories regarding age of testing. One is that it is harder to test HG or above at 5ish because of attention span issues. Another theory is that it is easier to test at that age, if your child is super verbal.

 

That's not much help is it! When I was growing up, our district in so cal tested at the end of 2nd grade.

[Spy Car]

I would go later rather than earlier. Especially since you're not dying to get something from it (placement-wise) right now.

 

The only crazy piece of the puzzle (better said another crazy piece of the puzzle) is that to accrue "points" for enterance to Magnet Schools parents must apply to Magnet Schools and get rejected. If one applys to a Magnet and elects not to go the child looses all of the accrued "points" and pretty well kills the child's chances of getting in a Magnet program.

 

How's that for a sucky system?

 

So we (and others) apply to schools we hope we will not be accepted to. We are happy with our school and want to stay. As we approach Middle School the chance of losing our points becomes anxiety producing. It has happened to a number of parents at our elementary school. Some have decided to stay and lose the points, but others feel forced to change schools. It is irrational.

 

If we had the testing (and it confirms what I strongly suspect) we could apply to the Highly Gifted Elementary. It is not where I'd prefer to be but with a gun to my head I might decide to go there if it meant losing our points.

 

Anyone happy to be homeschooling at this point in my tale of woe? :D

 

Without the test we can't apply. So there is some pressure. We are told not to sloppy for the same Magnet School two years in a row (because you look "serious") but I don't know if this is true, or if the applicants are chosen at random.

 

The whole thing gives me a headache.

 

The problem with test ceilings, IMO, is much less of an issue overall than the problem with little kids being unreliable. I think an 8yo would be a good testing candidate on both sides of that -- young enough that you should get a full range of test score possibilities, well beyond what the school admissions require, and old enough that you're not too worried that he's going to goof off at just the wrong time.

 

My thinking is along the same lines. We will see how much maturation occurs before next year. At this point "unreliability" (which is typical) is a far bigger area of concern for me than cognitive ability (which is very high).

 

Thank you (all) for Helping to talk me down a little. The "reality" of regular Middle School (where 6th Grade students were making "nuclear power plants" out of paper mâché and painting them with tempera and applying glitter in their "science" class) just about stopped by heart. Good grief!

 

Bill (who swore he was not going to be one of "those" parents, but....:tongue_smilie:)

[Spy Car]

A few thoughts--

 

If he might be tested with the Ravins, then you'll want to give your son as much practice with fill in the bubble tests as possible. One way to do this is to give him the CogAT at home. You could also add the ITBS. Administering these yourself will give you an idea of what kinds of issues he might have in a real testing situation. If you're planning to do the testing in 3rd grade, I'd do one round of testing now and one at the end of next year.

 

Something else to keep in mind--In my reading about IQ testing, I read somewhere that kids who are given a lot of enrichment at home will enter school with much higher IQs than those who don't. By much higher, I'm remembering something like 15 points. This gap closes quite a bit by third grade. I think this is why they say that IQ scores become more accurate (stable) at age 8. But in your situation, you may be able to take advantage of the enrichment factor.

 

Another idea--you could get him tested privately now to see what you're dealing with. If there are any problems, you have time to work on them. It also gives him experience with the test(s).

 

Much to chew on. Thank you so much for the specific ideas. Off to research!

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I would guess that principal was full of it! In California, gifted education usually falls under special ed, for some reason. So technically, you could call an IEP, or Individual Education Plan for your child. That's usually only used for special education, but being gifted qualifies. It's highly unusual, but legit. For more info on IEPs see: http://teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/03/09/when-something-is-wrong/

To follow that logic, in an IEP for special ed, you can include private testing. Often if a school district is pressed for time or $, they will just adopt the private testing results, in lieu of their own testing. I've seen this done lots of times in IEP meetings.

 

So keep this idea in your back pocket. I would have responded to that principal by saying, "Gee, my son's unique learning needs are really not being met in his current school placement, which is too restrictive for him. Perhaps I should initiate the IEP process for him, so that we can all get on the same page about what my son needs? Or maybe you would just like to review the results of his private testing on your own and consider him for admission? His Stanford-Binnet results are really interesting."

 

On a side note, be thankful your district even has a GATE program. Southern California is a lot better than Northern California on that issue. In the Bay Area there are hardly any GATE programs left (or at least that was my experience 6 years ago.) There is a big push to say: "All kids are special and gifted. We can meet the needs of all students in a regular ed classroom."

Also, did you check out the SENG website? They will have lot's of information on testing. http://www.sengifted.org/

 

Interesting ideas to keep in by back pocket. Thanks.

 

Fortunately our elementary school has a good GATE program and a very high percentage of children who qualify. And while I have no doubts about my son's intellectual gifts he is the type who (while obviously bright) is such a normal boy-boy behaviorally that he doesn't fit the stereotyped profile. At this point asking for an IEP would be very weird since he's about the last child who would need one. But I get the point if pressure is needed tactically.

 

I can't believe this is what it takes. Ugg :D

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

If your son is a PS student, you won't be able to administer the CogAt at home, sorry! The publisher only allows full-time homeschoolers to test and you have to sign a statement to that effect.

 

My suggestion would be to work through the Critical Thinking Press Visual Mind Benders books.

 

These are the e-books?

 

Bill

[Carpe]

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/why_test.htm

When to Test?

 

Let's start with the question of when to test. When is the gifted child too young / too old for testing? The best time to test for giftedness is when a question needs to be answered. School selection, educational placement decisions, early kindergarten, these are the kinds of questions that need an answer grounded in a comprehensive assessment, including testing. The recommended ages to begin to answer these questions, and therefore the recommended ages to test for giftedness are from ages 5 to 8. Note that there is a ceiling effect for gifted 5-year-olds on the WPPSI (Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scale of Intelligence); if possible, wait to test the gifted child on the WISC (Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children) after the child's sixth birthday.

 

[ . . . ]

 

Schools, on the other hand, suggest testing later, often not until 3rd grade or age 8 or 9. Research shows that for the average child, IQ test scores are reliable around age 8. Observations of gifted children (real research is needed) indicate that reliability in IQ scores is obtained much younger in the gifted population. Not coincidently, most schools recommend gifted testing for the year their gifted program begins.

 

Personally, I was 7 when I was tested and due to ceiling issues on multiple subtests (and then scoring rather poorly in the others because it turns out I needed glasses *sigh*) I was not accepted to the GATE program in my area.

 

I don't know how your school works, but here there were two cut-offs: an upper one above which all students are accepted and a second one standard deviation below. The children above the lower cut-off are assessed based on "need" ie the kids that are not coping well in regular school. I fell between the two based on that test (though I was tested at 11 on an adult-normed test and scored a full SD above the higher limit) and they felt any social issues I had were because I was chubby and not because I was smart. So they chose someone who "needed the spot more."

 

My experiences as well as my husband's similar experiences are the main reasons we've chosen to homeschool our kids.

 

Obviously I vote for ASAP for testing if your son has any chance of uneven results.

[Spy Car]

Personally, I was 7 when I was tested and due to ceiling issues on multiple subtests (and then scoring rather poorly in the others because it turns out I needed glasses *sigh*) I was not accepted to the GATE program in my area.

 

 

I wasn't tested until 6th Grade and it only happened because my little brother was tested and was found to be highly-gifted and thereafter became such a pain-in-the-ass to be around that my Mother demanded they test me out of self-defense :D

 

Begrudgingly they tested me. And when the results came in they demanded a re-test. And I scored even higher the second time :tongue_smilie:

 

Both times I scored just enough higher than my little brother that peace was restored in our home.

 

Bill

[catz]

Interesting ideas to keep in by back pocket. Thanks.

 

Fortunately our elementary school has a good GATE program and a very high percentage of children who qualify. And while I have no doubts about my son's intellectual gifts he is the type who (while obviously bright) is such a normal boy-boy behaviorally that he doesn't fit the stereotyped profile. At this point asking for an IEP would be very weird since he's about the last child who would need one. But I get the point if pressure is needed tactically.

 

I can't believe this is what it takes. Ugg :D

 

Bill

 

It can get ugly in these systems where MANY kids are IDed gifted. That is ultimately what caused us to pull out to homeschool. In a school where 40% of kids are "gifted", the HG+ kids really get nothing. My kid hit the ceiling of the school GT screener in kindergarten. But in our district once your IDed everyone is equal. He didn't "win" the GT lottery to get into the local FT GT magnet and got bumped for other kids who may or may not even be working at or above grade level. The system is broken on so many levels for so many kids.

 

It's that kind of thing that absolutely made me want to pull my hair out. We worked in the system to try to get services for our kid for 2 years and got little to nothing. Despite having test scores the district said they rarely see on their own screener. Once the 1st grade teacher told us to bail and she couldn't help, we jumped ship.

 

Good luck! Hope you have a better experience than us.

[Crimson Wife]

Interesting ideas to keep in by back pocket. Thanks.

 

Fortunately our elementary school has a good GATE program and a very high percentage of children who qualify. And while I have no doubts about my son's intellectual gifts he is the type who (while obviously bright) is such a normal boy-boy behaviorally that he doesn't fit the stereotyped profile. At this point asking for an IEP would be very weird since he's about the last child who would need one. But I get the point if pressure is needed tactically.

 

I can't believe this is what it takes. Ugg :D

 

Bill

 

Any parent can request an IEP assessment under the Federal IDEA law an the school legally has 60 days to schedule one. You can also request specific tests be included in the IEP assessment, including an IQ test. Go down to your local library and borrow a copy of Nolo's Complete IEP Guide- it'll give you all the info you need on how to go about the process.

 

You'd probably have the most luck voicing concerns about his attention span, impulsiveness, and fine motor skills if he's the typical young boy. He may very well not end up qualifying for an IEP, but at least you'd have the results of the assessment.

 

Be forewarned that the IEP process is a complete pain-in-the-neck. I went through it with my 2nd, who had speech & language issues and I'm gearing up to go through it again with my 3rd once she ages out of Early Intervention.

[Spy Car]

It can get ugly in these systems where MANY kids are IDed gifted. That is ultimately what caused us to pull out to homeschool. In a school where 40% of kids are "gifted", the HG+ kids really get nothing.

 

In our case I'm not sure we will need anything special in elementary school. We have a good program with a lot of bright kids. My son is not one of those who gets bored-out-of-his-mind or has other issues connected with his high cognitive abilities. I was the same way. Pretty much fine with school and not a "special needs" type. And I feed him at home.

 

It is Middle School where I worry. There is when the differentiated education might have a huge impact.

 

My kid hit the ceiling of the school GT screener in kindergarten. But in our district once your IDed everyone is equal. He didn't "win" the GT lottery to get into the local FT GT magnet and got bumped for other kids who may or may not even be working at or above grade level. The system is broken on so many levels for so many kids.

 

It's that kind of thing that absolutely made me want to pull my hair out. We worked in the system to try to get services for our kid for 2 years and got little to nothing. Despite having test scores the district said they rarely see on their own screener. Once the 1st grade teacher told us to bail and she couldn't help, we jumped ship.

 

Good luck! Hope you have a better experience than us.

 

Sorry for your experience. I have been feeling like a "happy camper" thus far in elementary school and we have much to look forward there with good teachers and a good student body. But Middle School could be a nightmare. Ugh.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Any parent can request an IEP assessment under the Federal IDEA law an the school legally has 60 days to schedule one. You can also request specific tests be included in the IEP assessment, including an IQ test. Go down to your local library and borrow a copy of Nolo's Complete IEP Guide- it'll give you all the info you need on how to go about the process.

 

You'd probably have the most luck voicing concerns about his attention span, impulsiveness, and fine motor skills if he's the typical young boy. He may very well not end up qualifying for an IEP, but at least you'd have the results of the assessment.

 

Be forewarned that the IEP process is a complete pain-in-the-neck. I went through it with my 2nd, who had speech & language issues and I'm gearing up to go through it again with my 3rd once she ages out of Early Intervention.

 

I think it would be an abuse of the process to be honest. Not that I might not abuse a process that abuses my child, but he has no real issues. It isn't like he has issues with attention span, impulsiveness and fine motor skills. He is actually pretty good in those areas, especially as the youngest child in his class.

 

Where he can have a problem is jumping to a (wrong) conclusion on a test when the question hasn't been fully considered. That is something he "might do" or might not do. On his year end math assessment he had a perfect score, but on the reading comprehension he had a couple of spectacularly wrong answers. Answers he had "justifications" for, but not what they wanted to hear. If you know what I mean.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

Where he can have a problem is jumping to a (wrong) conclusion on a test when the question hasn't been fully considered. That is something he "might do" or might not do. On his year end math assessment he had a perfect score, but on the reading comprehension he had a couple of spectacularly wrong answers. Answers he had "justifications" for, but not what they wanted to hear. If you know what I mean.

 

Bill

 

:lol::lol::lol: I know *EXACTLY* what you mean. I used to sit there on tests trying to figure out which answer the designer intended because I could come up with justifications for multiple answers. ;)

[Spy Car]

:lol::lol::lol: I know *EXACTLY* what you mean. I used to sit there on tests trying to figure out which answer the designer intended because I could come up with justifications for multiple answers. ;)

 

He had one where the "problem" was a boy's mother was having a birthday and he had no money to purchase a present. The "correct" answer was "lack of money." In his mind the "problem" was the Mommy was having a birthday and everything else flowed from there :lol:

 

I sympathize with his way of thinking :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[wapiti]

In that situation, with a single, high-stakes test on the horizon, I might consider doing private testing with a different IQ test than the one administered by the school, so that you might have some idea of what to expect (unless you're planning to wait at least a year, in which case I might use the same IQ test - usually there are rules about when you can use the same test again).

 

In our family of late bloomers with issues, for purposes of getting to the highest potential score, I'd be inclined to test later rather than earlier (say, 8), though there can be the issue of hitting a ceiling. That's why it would be nice to see what percentile he's at right now, to help guide your decision for timing the school test, if that would be affordable (around here, one can get an IQ test for private school admissions performed by an ed psych, without additional achievement testing and personal history evaluation, for about half of what a full eval by the same ed psych would cost).

 

just my two cents :)

[catz]

:lol::lol::lol: I know *EXACTLY* what you mean. I used to sit there on tests trying to figure out which answer the designer intended because I could come up with justifications for multiple answers. ;)

 

ROFL - I know exactly what you mean too. My kid does this exact kind of thing. Clear black and white answers (like math) he does great. On things like multiple choice reading comprehension, he totally over thinks it. As did I! Really interesting. It's been really good to have scores on multiple tests/formats for my particular kid. If I didn't, I would have no idea where he really was on say reading comprehension. Come to think of it, reading comp scores were always my husband's low point too. All of us are voracious and avid readers too.

[EKS]

If your son is a PS student, you won't be able to administer the CogAt at home, sorry! The publisher only allows full-time homeschoolers to test and you have to sign a statement to that effect.

 

 

 

Are you sure about this? I know you have to sign something when you test through BJU, but there are other places that offer the tests that may not have that requirement. I used one of them once, Piedmont I think it was called. There is a place called Triangle Assessments that offers the ITBS and the CogAT. I don't know what their policy is.

[kokotg]

Where he can have a problem is jumping to a (wrong) conclusion on a test when the question hasn't been fully considered. That is something he "might do" or might not do. On his year end math assessment he had a perfect score, but on the reading comprehension he had a couple of spectacularly wrong answers. Answers he had "justifications" for, but not what they wanted to hear. If you know what I mean.

 

Bill

 

 

Ah--those are the ones where my son will just refuse to answer the question at all. Which is how we wound up with "not interpretable" for his verbal comprehension score on the WISC.

[Nart]

I used to work as a school psychologist for LAUSD, so I am quite familiar with gifted testing there. I haven't worked there for 7 years but I don't think much has changed.

1. It is rare to administer the WISC-IV because it is administered individually which takes up a lot of time, it is much quicker to administer the Raven's to a group of children at the same time. I only gave the WISC under really special circumstances, one of them being I liked to occasionally practice administering the WISC with gifted students, so it was only when I had a lot of time. If when I was administering the Raven's I observed a really inattentive or distractible kid, and I felt that the child would better be served by an individual assessment with the Raven's. I would then stop testing that student, send him back to class, continue with the group assessment, then go and get the student and individually administer the test to that student.

2. Under no circumstances are private assessments accepted, which I personally think to be fair considering that most students who attend LAUSD receive free or reduced school lunch, which means their parents are poor.

3. Gifted education does not fall under special education in California. No student in California has an IEP for being gifted, although some special education students are gifted but they are eligible for special education under another category (speech and language, autism, specific learning disability, etc. ) If you requested a special education evaluation, I am quite sure you would be denied since your child is progressing.

4.Try to have the teacher refer him in second grade or third grade if possible, so you have time to plan. The Raven's is scored by age so it doesn't matter if the child is older or younger for his grade. I saw more 2nd graders qualify gifted or highly gifted than older students, but this is probably because the more obviously bright kids get referred early. Some schools like to wait and see how student do on the second grade STAR test and then refer the students who score advanced.

5. When I looked at MEP math I was surprised that a lot of the logic and visual/spatial thinking problems were similar to those on nonverbal intelligence tests or the nonverbal reasoning sections on intelligence tests. If your son is doing well on those types of problem then I would push for testing earlier rather than later.

6. Testing highly gifted is difficult, achieving a score that is in the 99.9th percentile rank is quite a feat compared to scoring at least in the 95th percentile rank (LAUSD's cut off for qualifying under gifted). LAUSD has over 600,000 students so the 99.9th percentile rank means one out of every thousand students or around 600 kids in LAUSD (of course this assumes the test was normed on a population like LAUSD, which of course it was not considering the demographics of the student population). Being merely gifted (which is impressive as well) occurs in every 5 out of 100 students, so that would be 30,000 students.

 

Since the Raven's is multiple choice, there are some students who might be highly gifted but will make a silly mistake or two or just miss a question and just qualify under gifted. Others are gifted but have more focus and will make some good or just plain lucky guesses and will get that highly gifted score.

 

I would tell anyone considering trying to get into a highly gifted magnet to have a realistic plan B, even if I thought the child was really brilliant.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Nart

[jenbrdsly]

It can get ugly in these systems where MANY kids are IDed gifted. That is ultimately what caused us to pull out to homeschool. In a school where 40% of kids are "gifted", the HG+ kids really get nothing. My kid hit the ceiling of the school GT screener in kindergarten. But in our district once your IDed everyone is equal. He didn't "win" the GT lottery to get into the local FT GT magnet and got bumped for other kids who may or may not even be working at or above grade level. The system is broken on so many levels for so many kids.

 

It's that kind of thing that absolutely made me want to pull my hair out. We worked in the system to try to get services for our kid for 2 years and got little to nothing. Despite having test scores the district said they rarely see on their own screener. Once the 1st grade teacher told us to bail and she couldn't help, we jumped ship.

 

Good luck! Hope you have a better experience than us.

 

This is a really heart-breaking story to me. This is why there should be GATE classes, and "gifted of the gifted" classes. That's what it's like in the district I grew up in.

 

Incidentally, (not that I'm suggesting this), there has been a whole shift in thinking regarding skipping grades. That use to be really frowned upon when I was younger, but now new research has come out saying it might be a viable option. http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/

[Spy Car]

I used to work as a school psychologist for LAUSD, so I am quite familiar with gifted testing there. I haven't worked there for 7 years but I don't think much has changed.

 

 

Thank you for the inside view. I think we will need back-up plans A, B, C and D.

 

I'm not even sure if the Highly Gifted Magnet is where we would hope to be. The regular Middle School was dismal, but here is a GATE track as well. It was Portola (are you familiar?).

 

Anyway I appreciate the advice. I hate caring about these sorts of things as I largely question the relevance of these tests and think they are rather inconsequential. Until they become consequential by potentially limiting options. And then I have to care. Meh.

 

Bill

[jenbrdsly]

I used to work as a school psychologist for LAUSD, so I am quite familiar with gifted testing there. I haven't worked there for 7 years but I don't think much has changed.

1. It is rare to administer the WISC-IV because it is administered individually which takes up a lot of time, it is much quicker to administer the Raven's to a group of children at the same time. I only gave the WISC under really special circumstances, one of them being I liked to occasionally practice administering the WISC with gifted students, so it was only when I had a lot of time. If when I was administering the Raven's I observed a really inattentive or distractible kid, and I felt that the child would better be served by an individual assessment with the Raven's. I would then stop testing that student, send him back to class, continue with the group assessment, then go and get the student and individually administer the test to that student.

2. Under no circumstances are private assessments accepted, which I personally think to be fair considering that most students who attend LAUSD receive free or reduced school lunch, which means their parents are poor.

3. Gifted education does not fall under special education in California. No student in California has an IEP for being gifted, although some special education students are gifted but they are eligible for special education under another category (speech and language, autism, specific learning disability, etc. ) If you requested a special education evaluation, I am quite sure you would be denied since your child is progressing.

4.Try to have the teacher refer him in second grade or third grade if possible, so you have time to plan. The Raven's is scored by age so it doesn't matter if the child is older or younger for his grade. I saw more 2nd graders qualify gifted or highly gifted than older students, but this is probably because the more obviously bright kids get referred early. Some schools like to wait and see how student do on the second grade STAR test and then refer the students who score advanced.

5. When I looked at MEP math I was surprised that a lot of the logic and visual/spatial thinking problems were similar to those on nonverbal intelligence tests or the nonverbal reasoning sections on intelligence tests. If your son is doing well on those types of problem then I would push for testing earlier rather than later.

6. Testing highly gifted is difficult, achieving a score that is in the 99.9th percentile rank is quite a feat compared to scoring at least in the 95th percentile rank (LAUSD's cut off for qualifying under gifted). LAUSD has over 600,000 students so the 99.9th percentile rank means one out of every thousand students or around 600 kids in LAUSD (of course this assumes the test was normed on a population like LAUSD, which of course it was not considering the demographics of the student population). Being merely gifted (which is impressive as well) occurs in every 5 out of 100 students, so that would be 30,000 students.

 

Since the Raven's is multiple choice, there are some students who might be highly gifted but will make a silly mistake or two or just miss a question and just qualify under gifted. Others are gifted but have more focus and will make some good or just plain lucky guesses and will get that highly gifted score.

 

I would tell anyone considering trying to get into a highly gifted magnet to have a realistic plan B, even if I thought the child was really brilliant.

You would know better than I about LAUSD, but that's not true that GATE is never grouped with Special ED in California. Here's an example from another CA district: http://www.salinas.k12.ca.us/sites/DO-SE/Index.htm Often times districts will have an associate superintendent who is in charge of student services, which include special ed and GATE.

I taught at two different districts in the Bay Area, and in both places outside assessments of things like Autism, or PDD, or even OT, were accepted in IEP meetings. It was because the districts were so pressed for time and money that they would just take outside assessments.

Often times HG kids can have really intense emotional or behavioral issues, which could warrant an IEP process at least being initiated. There is a lot of talk on the SENG website of gifted kids being misdiagnosed for things like ADGD and even bipolar, when in fact wildly intense moods and energy levels can be quite typical for gifted kids. It doesn't sound like this is the case in this situation however.

[ElizabethB]

He had one where the "problem" was a boy's mother was having a birthday and he had no money to purchase a present. The "correct" answer was "lack of money." In his mind the "problem" was the Mommy was having a birthday and everything else flowed from there :lol:

 

I sympathize with his way of thinking :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

My daughter had a different problem at that age. She would know the right answer, but if there was an animal or something else she liked in any of the other answers, she would pick that anyway because "I like animals." :lol::lol:

 

(I know because at that age she still read and thought aloud, I listened to the whole thing as she took her ITBS.)

[Spy Car]

My daughter had a different problem at that age. She would know the right answer, but if there was an animal or something else she liked in any of the other answers, she would pick that anyway because "I like animals." :lol::lol:

 

(I know because at that age she still read and thought aloud, I listened to the whole thing as she took her ITBS.)

 

Strangely enough the other spectacularly wrong answer involved animals. The exact question and correct answer slip my mind, but I know my son picked "he wanted a dog" when that was not the "right" answer because my son would have had him want the dog (because that is what my son would have wanted---and actually just got prior to test taking) rather than what the boy in the story actually wanted. Facts my son understood, but did it matter? Not a bit!

 

Clearly our children are two peas in a pod :lol:

 

Bill

[ElizabethB]

Strangely enough the other spectacularly wrong answer involved animals. The exact question and correct answer slip my mind, but I know my son picked "he wanted a dog" when that was not the "right" answer because my son would have had him want the dog (because that is what my son would have wanted---and actually just got prior to test taking) rather than what the boy in the story actually wanted. Facts my son understood, but did it matter? Not a bit!

 

Clearly our children are two peas in a pod :lol:

 

Bill

 

If it is any comfort, she now answers correctly even if she likes another answer better! Actually, the next year she did, too, although she needed a reminder before each section to "Pay attention to the stories even if they are boring and answer what they asked even if you think it is stupid or not interesting or not what you want to pick."

[Spy Car]

If it is any comfort, she now answers correctly even if she likes another answer better! Actually, the next year she did, too, although she needed a reminder before each section to "Pay attention to the stories even if they are boring and answer what they asked even if you think it is stupid or not interesting or not what you want to pick."

 

I tried to speak with our teacher about this. She was surprised since he did "so well" overall. I asked if the kids were told the year-end testing was "important."

 

She said, "Oh no, we don't want to stress them out."

 

Good gravy.

 

My son needs: "Pay attention to the stories even if they are boring and answer what they asked even if you think it is stupid or not interesting or not what you want to pick." :D

 

I've become one of "those" parents I'm afraid :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[LittleIzumi]

This is a really heart-breaking story to me. This is why there should be GATE classes, and "gifted of the gifted" classes. That's what it's like in the district I grew up in.

 

Incidentally, (not that I'm suggesting this), there has been a whole shift in thinking regarding skipping grades. That use to be really frowned upon when I was younger, but now new research has come out saying it might be a viable option. http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/

 

I skipped & it was never a problem later. :)

 

SpyCar, that is a very convoluted system they have in place. :glare: Any chance of starting a ballot initiative to change it?

 

I had many silly knee-jerk responses due to the lateness (earliness?) of the hour but I was sensible enough to delete them :tongue_smilie:. Dd is up with nightmare issues so I'm up late as well.

[Spy Car]

SpyCar, that is a very convoluted system they have in place. :glare: Any chance of starting a ballot initiative to change it?

 

 

It is a bone-headed system. But we save the initiative process for really important items :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[SnegurochkaL]

I tried to speak with our teacher about this. She was surprised since he did "so well" overall. I asked if the kids were told the year-end testing was "important."

 

She said, "Oh no, we don't want to stress them out."

 

Good gravy.

 

My son needs: "Pay attention to the stories even if they are boring and answer what they asked even if you think it is stupid or not interesting or not what you want to pick." :D

 

I've become one of "those" parents I'm afraid :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

I think you are correct. You know what will be the best option for your child and you know him much better than a teacher in a class.

 

It is completely opposite to what I went through in my school years. I still remember how my math teacher would remind us to read All assignments and pay attention to details. It did help a lot.

 

All tests are stressful, especially oral:( I think younger kids take them less serious that older do, that is why they are less nervous.

 

Are there any other way to overwrite "requirements" not accepting private testing? For example, state level? I think you are trying to fight a bureaucratic machine, which is very hard to do.

I don't want to be in your shoes. I hope everything will be resolved to the best.

[EKS]

Incidentally, (not that I'm suggesting this), there has been a whole shift in thinking regarding skipping grades. That use to be really frowned upon when I was younger, but now new research has come out saying it might be a viable option.

 

Unfortunately, at least in our district, the research is ignored.

[Luckymama]

Well, that's a stinky system!

 

We started homeschooling dd because of Middle School academic issues. She'll be attending a high school where she'll be in appropriate classes.

[Dana]

Are you sure about this? I know you have to sign something when you test through BJU, but there are other places that offer the tests that may not have that requirement. I used one of them once, Piedmont I think it was called. There is a place called Triangle Assessments that offers the ITBS and the CogAT. I don't know what their policy is.

 

 

Triangle link to CogAT.

[Tiramisu]

Strangely enough the other spectacularly wrong answer involved animals. The exact question and correct answer slip my mind, but I know my son picked "he wanted a dog" when that was not the "right" answer because my son would have had him want the dog (because that is what my son would have wanted---and actually just got prior to test taking) rather than what the boy in the story actually wanted. Facts my son understood, but did it matter? Not a bit!

 

Clearly our children are two peas in a pod :lol:

 

Bill

 

One dd, who is a lot older, scored incredibly low on one WISC subtest, more than significantly lower than the other subtest scores. When I asked her about that particular section of testing, her relply was that she had a reasonable answer for each choice she made (finding a common theme among three pictures) but she hadn't been asked.

[LittleIzumi]

Triangle link to CogAT.

 

Thanks!!

[Dana]

Thanks!!

 

I had good service from them this year. I used the ITBS and CogAT.

I had questions a couple of different times & called & emailed & they were very helpful and professional.

 

Very pleased.