The most APs don't win...

[4wildberrys]

Doing a little searching at what Stanford wants for admission, I was pleasantly surprised to read that they are not really impressed with the most APs, Honors classes etc that are taken simply to look good on a transcript! They want motivated students that love learning---exactly my philosophy of our school, which is why a lot of times I will pick courses or books that might be considered non-rigorous or 'too young', but that spark the excitement of learning in my kids and don't kill their joy (well, as much as a teenager CAN love learning :tongue_smilie:).

 

Hopefully this excerpt from Stanford will make some of you feel better about not pushing THE hardest and most rigorous on your kids, no matter the 'peer pressure' heaped on us these days ;):

 

Our hope is that your curriculum will inspire you to develop your intellectual passions, not suffer from unnecessary stress. The students who thrive at Stanford are those who are genuinely excited about learning, not necessarily those who take every single AP, Honors, or Accelerated class just because it has that name.

 

Advanced Placement Courses and Scores

Our admission process allows – and indeed encourages – the flexibility of a high school to design the most appropriate curricular offerings and opportunities for its students. What a course is named or whether it concludes with a standardized test is considerably less important to us than the energy a student contributes to the learning process and the curiosity with which he or she pursues questions and ideas. Sometimes this challenging high school course load will include advanced placement classes; other high schools choose to offer equally demanding courses that neither carry the AP designation nor lead to an AP exam.

 

We want to be clear that this is not a case of “whoever has the most APs wins.†Instead, we look for thoughtful, eager and highly engaged students who will make a difference at Stanford and the world beyond, and we expect that they have taken high school course loads of reasonable and appropriate challenge in the context of their school.

 

As a result, we do not require students to submit AP scores as part of our admission process. AP scores that are reported are acknowledged but rarely play a significant role in the evaluation of an application. Grades earned over the course of a semester, or a year, and evaluations from instructors who can comment on classroom engagement allow us the most detailed insight into a student’s readiness for the academic rigors of Stanford.

[creekland]

I sure hope this is the case at more places than Stanford (as Stanford is not one we're considering). Middle son is only going to have the one AP course and 2 cc courses on his applications. AP tests are more difficult to come by around here (none at our local hs) and cc courses cost a minimum of $660 each (more for lab classes). I'm relying a bit on what I expect to be awesome letters of recommendation to go along with his ACT score. Then there's what he has for extra curriculars (which aren't necessarily as impressive as many I've read about).

 

He does, however, have an extreme love of learning that everyone who has interacted with him has noticed. I'm hoping that comes through in the letters of recommendation.

 

Time will tell if it works. Sometimes I think it will and other times I'm not so sure. My guy does have a couple of safety schools already known, so that's helpful. But sometimes I wonder if he should have done more to have better odds at other places he'd like to go.

[galtgrl]

Thanks, that was refreshing! :001_smile:

I have nothing against AP classes/exams/those who take them, but we're choosing NOT to go racing headlong down that particular path. The girls might take 1 or 2...we'll see.

[memphispeg]

EXACTLY -

Keep it real!!! But, also realize that some APs are good to take b/c there are schools that are not Stanford and the testing may get the student a good class placement. Taking APs in the field of interest or in required CORE course areas can save a student credit hours to take subjects that really interest and challenge them. We are looking at some State Schools and this seems to be the best course of action if possible. Merit aid is also a factor with these schools so, anything meritorious on the transcript might help. But AP just for AP sake just doesn't seem to cut it these days. Besides, it gets really expen$ive!!!

[romeacademy]

That is encouraging. I had a conversation with my SIL a few weeks ago and she was telling me about how her son was cramming for his AP World History exam. Apparently the teacher had told the kids that their lives were "hers" until the test, and my nephew had been wandering around the house muttering the names and dates of Chinese dynasties. SIL said he actually used to like history. I didn't say anything to her, but I thought that it really is sad, because there's a kid who just lost a love of something.

 

I don't want to seem like I'm totally discounting AP tests. I hope to be able to make use of a couple where it suits. But they do strike me as a form of teaching to the test, at least the way SIL described it, and it's refreshing to hear that they're not the end all I have heard some parents make them out to be.

[4wildberrys]

I'm not discounting AP or Honors or CC---but reading this is reassuring to me simply because we live in an extremely rural area with NO access to CC or AP or Honors or even 'impressive' extracurricular. So right from the start my kids are 'disadvantaged' compared to the urban kids who have everything at their fingertips. It's nice that there are schools out there that take other things into consideration besides an impressive looking transcript and high test scores. We do plan on moving to an urban area around July, but now I am not going to feel pressured to too much to our already full schedule just for 'looks' ;) If he really shows an interest in a particular field we can't do at home for cheaper, I would not hold him back though!

[Robin in DFW]

Dd will be attending the school of her choice with 3 different scholarships, acceptance into the Honors College and FOCUS program (for math and science majors)...

 

She did have a nice SAT score...but not over the top incredible...

 

She loves learning about everything.

[Luckymama]

On the flip side, there are kids (ie my ds) who want to take many AP classes because of interest. He is/was not padding his transcript lol. If he didn't take the AP versions of the classes (instead of the Honors versions) he would have bored out of his skull this year.

 

He will be attending a state university this fall which will accept his 5s (and the 4) for mega non-major credit :D

[mom31257]

On the flip side, there are kids (ie my ds) who want to take many AP classes because of interest. He is/was not padding his transcript lol. If he didn't take the AP versions of the classes (instead of the Honors versions) he would have bored out of his skull this year.

 

 

 

This is what I was going to point out. My dh teaches public school, and the honors and AP classes are more interesting/engaging than the regular classes. I would think that hold true in most high schools in America.

[regentrude]

What a course is named or whether it concludes with a standardized test is considerably less important to us than the energy a student contributes to the learning process and the curiosity with which he or she pursues questions and ideas.

 

Just how do they measure how much energy and curiosity a student has??? How does a student project this to the admissions officials???

 

I agree that one can overdo AP - but I don't buy it when they say it does not matter. It may be the case that they don't look at AP scores for students with a traditional schooling. I still have the nagging suspicion that for homeschoolers it is valuable to have some sort of external validation in the form of AP, SATII or CLEP, if competing for admission into selective schools.

Just having somebody ELSE besides mommy validate the academic level would certainly influence decisions - even if they are not aware of it.

 

If schools explicitly say they want to see the student taking the most challenging classes available, just how would they judge whether this has been the case without any external data?

[plansrme]

It may be the case that they don't look at AP scores for students with a traditional schooling. I still have the nagging suspicion that for homeschoolers it is valuable to have some sort of external validation in the form of AP, SATII or CLEP, if competing for admission into selective schools.

Just having somebody ELSE besides mommy validate the academic level would certainly influence decisions - even if they are not aware of it.

 

 

I think this distinction is an important one to keep in mind. The vast majority of successful Stanford applicants would, I dare say, come from "known" schools, i.e., high schools that have produced previous Stanford admittees or are otherwise known as rigorous academic institutions. Terri's Basement is hardly a known school to Stanford or any other selective college, and I expect that my children will need more, and stronger, outside validation than those who are typically-schooled.

 

Also, if she enters a brick-and-mortar high school along the way, and we want accomodations or credit for work she has already done, my standing around and muttering, "But she's really smart. . ." is hardly going to carry the weight of a solid AP score achieved when she was 13.

 

Terri

[creekland]

Just how do they measure how much energy and curiosity a student has??? How does a student project this to the admissions officials???

 

I agree that one can overdo AP - but I don't buy it when they say it does not matter. It may be the case that they don't look at AP scores for students with a traditional schooling. I still have the nagging suspicion that for homeschoolers it is valuable to have some sort of external validation in the form of AP, SATII or CLEP, if competing for admission into selective schools.

Just having somebody ELSE besides mommy validate the academic level would certainly influence decisions - even if they are not aware of it.

 

If schools explicitly say they want to see the student taking the most challenging classes available, just how would they judge whether this has been the case without any external data?

 

I believe there needs to be some for the most selective schools. They've all told me they need something. I don't think they need oodles, and I'm hoping that is, indeed, the case as we live in an area where oodles are difficult to come by without paying a bit for more cc classes. Our local school does NOT offer AP. Middle son had to go to a nearby Catholic school to take his. I've since found out he could take a couple others there, but we didn't go that route early enough to count.

 

Schools that aren't as selective don't need any, but they don't hurt.

[4wildberrys]

Just how do they measure how much energy and curiosity a student has??? How does a student project this to the admissions officials???

 

I agree that one can overdo AP - but I don't buy it when they say it does not matter. It may be the case that they don't look at AP scores for students with a traditional schooling. I still have the nagging suspicion that for homeschoolers it is valuable to have some sort of external validation in the form of AP, SATII or CLEP, if competing for admission into selective schools.

Just having somebody ELSE besides mommy validate the academic level would certainly influence decisions - even if they are not aware of it.

 

If schools explicitly say they want to see the student taking the most challenging classes available, just how would they judge whether this has been the case without any external data?

 

There is a page that describes this. Obviously letters of recommendation from 2 teachers and an advisor are generally not possible with homeschoolers, so they do want the parent to write a letter. They do hold the SAT and ACT scores as a general bar to determine academic knowledge, but they would like SAT subject tests to show that the homeschool studies were adequate to educate the student. The student also needs to write their own letter talking about their home education, why they homeschooled, what sacrifices or changes they had to make in order to study at home etc. I'm sure a personal interview will shed light on whether the student is motivated enough to go to a really challenging school. At least for Stanford it sounds like they do let mom, student and a test validate whether the studies were adequate without having to outsource a 'real' teacher or class.

[8filltheheart]

There is a page that describes this. Obviously letters of recommendation from 2 teachers and an advisor are generally not possible with homeschoolers, so they do want the parent to write a letter. They do hold the SAT and ACT scores as a general bar to determine academic knowledge, but they would like SAT subject tests to show that the homeschool studies were adequate to educate the student. The student also needs to write their own letter talking about their home education, why they homeschooled, what sacrifices or changes they had to make in order to study at home etc. I'm sure a personal interview will shed light on whether the student is motivated enough to go to a really challenging school. At least for Stanford it sounds like they do let mom, student and a test validate whether the studies were adequate without having to outsource a 'real' teacher or class.

 

 

I agree with Regentrude. Honestly, the bolded part is quite telling b/c most subject tests should be taken after the AP or advanced course. It is when the majority of students take them and the scores reflect that.

[regentrude]

There is a page that describes this. Obviously letters of recommendation from 2 teachers and an advisor are generally not possible with homeschoolers, so they do want the parent to write a letter. They do hold the SAT and ACT scores as a general bar to determine academic knowledge, but they would like SAT subject tests to show that the homeschool studies were adequate to educate the student.

 

Oh, so "AP does not matter, we don't look at the scores - but we want SAT subject tests"???

Bottom line is the same - student needs to study and do well on SOME kind of test. For philosophical considerations, I don't see how it makes a difference WHAT kind of test they want.

[creekland]

 

As a result, we do not require students to submit AP scores as part of our admission process. AP scores that are reported are acknowledged but rarely play a significant role in the evaluation of an application. Grades earned over the course of a semester, or a year, and evaluations from instructors who can comment on classroom engagement allow us the most detailed insight into a student’s readiness for the academic rigors of Stanford.

 

The part I key in on is the evals from instructors who can comment on classroom engagement. My guy will have a high ACT, one AP test (self-studied, which, some schools have told me counts for more to them), and 2 cc classes while taking a third.

 

If some of these schools required AP, even kids from my local ps wouldn't be able to apply as our school doesn't offer AP (not that any would ever make it in).

 

I agree that the highly selective schools want something. I think the key is they need to get a feel for the student, but it doesn't take 10 APs to do that. Then the question becomes does 10 APs trump 2 APs. It seems from their statement that it does not. Whether it does in reality is anyone's guess.

[Jonibee]

And the benefit of a score of 5 on even one AP test cannot be understated. With even one AP score of 5, and admissions officer can "assume" the level of the rest of the homeschool classes. Without such an indicator (or a great SAT II test score), all classes would be suspect as to the rigor of the class.

 

If a family wants to avoid tests like these and hinge their hopes on their student being a great asset to the school by the extracurriculars, the student essay and the parent essay, that is a huge burden also -- just in a different aspect.

 

It seems easier for me to have my kids reach for 2 or 3 AP tests than to think that their admittance to college relies on me producing the paperwork (and car transport and $$) to provide stellar extracurricular activity, and then so much on my essay describing the value of my child's education. That seems far more stressful to me. I would rather leave more stress on the student to study for a hard class. Then it remains their burden, not mine.

 

I also agree with a previous poster, that for my kids an AP class is where they need to be for the challenge and to avoid boredom. The nearest college for us is 1 hour away, which is just not practical for attending.

[Elizabeth in WA]

... they do strike me as a form of teaching to the test...

 

As a side note, I have to say that I am not philosophically opposed to teaching to the test when the test in question is a well-designed test of well-specified content. Whether the AP exams are always well-designed may be debatable, but they do tend to cover a well-specified course of content.

 

Lower level math courses in undergrad frequently teach to a common final exam that ensures everyone moving up to the next course has the same essential background. (At least, that was my experience with the calculus sequence and linear algebra.)

 

I do object to teaching the the test when the test is poorly designed and the teaching in question is test-specific tricks for figuring out the right answer without knowing the material.

[Bostonian]

They want motivated students that love learning---exactly my philosophy of our school

 

I am skeptical of admissions officers' ability to judge who "really loves learning". Every applicant will say he does on his application. By contrast, AP, SAT I, SAT II, and ACT scores are objective and less easily fudged.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I agree that one can overdo AP - but I don't buy it when they say it does not matter. It may be the case that they don't look at AP scores for students with a traditional schooling. I still have the nagging suspicion that for homeschoolers it is valuable to have some sort of external validation in the form of AP, SATII or CLEP, if competing for admission into selective schools.

Just having somebody ELSE besides mommy validate the academic level would certainly influence decisions - even if they are not aware of it.

 

Oh, but they are very aware! Every admissions officer I spoke with during my kids' college app years stated that homeschoolers need outside verification. It doesn't have to be APs particularly, but it's got to be more than mommy for the most part. Stanford has a separate webpage in addition to the posting above just for homeschooled applicants, which addresses the academic record, testing, LORs, & extracurriculars. MIT also has a similar one. In my experience with my kids, these are spot-on.

 

If schools explicitly say they want to see the student taking the most challenging classes available, just how would they judge whether this has been the case without any external data?

 

Stanford has one adcom who handles all the homeschooled applicants. I suspect that over the years, he's seen it all and knows how different families approach homeschooling & what kind of learning opportunities are available to us (online, brick & mortar, self-study, etc).The guidance counselor letter is a great place to address why your family chose as you did to fit your resources and your particular child's learning needs..

 

Just how do they measure how much energy and curiosity a student has??? How does a student project this to the admissions officials???

 

Via well-chosen LORs, the student's own application essays (Stanford requires several extra essays for applicants in addition to the common app essay), interviews at some schools (not Stanford)...

 

All of the above can speak to the student's energy + passion + initiative. Take advantage of homeschooling to get them involved in their interest areas. This could involve clubs, teams, research, contests, summer camps, collaborative projects, online discussion forums, tutoring younger kids, running a club for younger kids in an interest area,...those are some ideas we used. My dd did lots and lots of artwork on her own mostly. To document it on her apps, she took photos & scanned her work, then set up a Flickr account online. At the end of the Common App, there's a spot for extra information; she included a link to her site.

[JennW in SoCal]

I agree that the highly selective schools want something. I think the key is they need to get a feel for the student, but it doesn't take 10 APs to do that. Then the question becomes does 10 APs trump 2 APs. It seems from their statement that it does not.

 

From my limited perspective here at the beginning of my son's college search, quality and uniqueness of an applicant count for so much more than the sheer number of APs. There are thousands of public school kids applying to the same colleges our kids will apply to, and most of those kids will look alike on paper: same AP courses, same high school clubs and sports. Good liberal arts colleges, including the Ivies, want to see something unique that will round out their student body, and I think our homeschool kids should do what they can to highlight their uniqueness.

 

Of course outside verification of their education and ability matters, whether it is APs or SAT IIs or CC classes. But we get to package applications to highlight what makes our children's education unique, what skills they have, and how they took advantage of the opportunities offered by their flexible schedules. We get to provide book lists, course descriptions and most importantly, our kids have essays in which to sell themselves.

 

The LACs we've visited so far welcome homeschoolers -- they LIKE homeschoolers, in fact. And what really has struck me is about these small LACs is that they all describe a homeschooler's dream situation. The freshman seminars that are book and writing intensive with small classes that facilitate discussion. The ability to shape your own major, the mentorships offered by the faculty with research and internships opportunities. The senior capstone projects.

 

Really, don't fret about the number of APs. Once you decide how to do the required coursework and how to prove your child's college readiness, whether SAT IIs, AP tests or CC classes, you should focus on facilitating and documenting your child's unique interests and activities. Then you should look for a college that fits.

 

On last item on the APs. A friend of mine has been a grader for the AP Econ tests. Each year she comments on the small percentage of kids who really do well on them. She said there are stacks of blank tests and stacks with stories that kids write like "my school made me take this stupid test, but I don't care so let me tell you about my dog instead". Many public schools love to brag about the percentage of students who take AP classes, but it doesn't mean the kids are scoring 4s or 5s on the exam. I don't know if those schools relate the grade in the class to the AP test score -- some might not. My point is that AP isn't the Holy Grail but is just one game high school students are compelled to play.

 

This is getting long! There is a lovely thread on the homeschool board at CollegeConfidential.com by a teen who got admitted to Stanford. He is the quintessential self-studying homeschooler and he is happy to answer any and all questions.

[4wildberrys]

Oh, but they are very aware! Every admissions officer I spoke with during my kids' college app years stated that homeschoolers need outside verification. It doesn't have to be APs particularly, but it's got to be more than mommy for the most part. Stanford has a separate webpage in addition to the posting above just for homeschooled applicants, which addresses the academic record, testing, LORs, & extracurriculars. MIT also has a similar one. In my experience with my kids, these are spot-on.

 

 

 

Stanford has one adcom who handles all the homeschooled applicants. I suspect that over the years, he's seen it all and knows how different families approach homeschooling & what kind of learning opportunities are available to us (online, brick & mortar, self-study, etc).The guidance counselor letter is a great place to address why your family chose as you did to fit your resources and your particular child's learning needs..

 

 

 

Via well-chosen LORs, the student's own application essays (Stanford requires several extra essays for applicants in addition to the common app essay), interviews at some schools (not Stanford)...

 

All of the above can speak to the student's energy + passion + initiative. Take advantage of homeschooling to get them involved in their interest areas. This could involve clubs, teams, research, contests, summer camps, collaborative projects, online discussion forums, tutoring younger kids, running a club for younger kids in an interest area,...those are some ideas we used. My dd did lots and lots of artwork on her own mostly. To document it on her apps, she took photos & scanned her work, then set up a Flickr account online. At the end of the Common App, there's a spot for extra information; she included a link to her site.

 

Thank you---this was the impression I got. That they can essentially gauge a student's passion without necessarily a bunch of APs etc. Obviously, only a really motivated student would WANT to apply to Stanford or MIT---homeschooled or public schooled. I guess a point I wanted to make is that if I only got advice here on how to educate my kids, even to send them to a public university, they would be taking all AP, getting their AA while simultaneously graduating high school and have passed all freshmen level college classes by CLEP :tongue_smilie: Nothing necessarily wrong with any of this for motivated students, but for 'regular' students like mine---it was relieving to visit the sites of the actual colleges that lowered this super high unattainable standard for us to a realistic level----even making Stanford an application possibility for my son when the time comes, even with just mom teaching him using just 'regular' homeschool high school curriculum. ;)

[4wildberrys]

From my limited perspective here at the beginning of my son's college search, quality and uniqueness of an applicant count for so much more than the sheer number of APs. There are thousands of public school kids applying to the same colleges our kids will apply to, and most of those kids will look alike on paper: same AP courses, same high school clubs and sports. Good liberal arts colleges, including the Ivies, want to see something unique that will round out their student body, and I think our homeschool kids should do what they can to highlight their uniqueness.

 

Of course outside verification of their education and ability matters, whether it is APs or SAT IIs or CC classes. But we get to package applications to highlight what makes our children's education unique, what skills they have, and how they took advantage of the opportunities offered by their flexible schedules. We get to provide book lists, course descriptions and most importantly, our kids have essays in which to sell themselves.

 

The LACs we've visited so far welcome homeschoolers -- they LIKE homeschoolers, in fact. And what really has struck me is about these small LACs is that they all describe a homeschooler's dream situation. The freshman seminars that are book and writing intensive with small classes that facilitate discussion. The ability to shape your own major, the mentorships offered by the faculty with research and internships opportunities. The senior capstone projects.

 

Really, don't fret about the number of APs. Once you decide how to do the required coursework and how to prove your child's college readiness, whether SAT IIs, AP tests or CC classes, you should focus on facilitating and documenting your child's unique interests and activities. Then you should look for a college that fits.

 

On last item on the APs. A friend of mine has been a grader for the AP Econ tests. Each year she comments on the small percentage of kids who really do well on them. She said there are stacks of blank tests and stacks with stories that kids write like "my school made me take this stupid test, but I don't care so let me tell you about my dog instead". Many public schools love to brag about the percentage of students who take AP classes, but it doesn't mean the kids are scoring 4s or 5s on the exam. I don't know if those schools relate the grade in the class to the AP test score -- some might not. My point is that AP isn't the Holy Grail but is just one game high school students are compelled to play.

 

This is getting long! There is a lovely thread on the homeschool board at CollegeConfidential.com by a teen who got admitted to Stanford. He is the quintessential self-studying homeschooler and he is happy to answer any and all questions.

 

Oh I love hearing things like this! Thanks :D

[Mabelen]

 

We want to be clear that this is not a case of “whoever has the most APs wins.” Instead, we look for thoughtful, eager and highly engaged students who will make a difference at Stanford and the world beyond, and we expect that they have taken high school course loads of reasonable and appropriate challenge in the context of their school.

 

 

I think this part simply acknowledges that not all High Schools are created equal. You can have two equally worthy candidates with very different amounts of APs. A student from a rural or inner city school won't usually have access to the same course offerings as a student from a suburban school in a well regarded district. So the course load still does matter, but only taken within the context of the particular school as opposed to that of other candidates from different schools. I highly doubt that a student who is not taking a rigorous course load for his or her school will fare very well at admissions. In a competitive suburban high schol that will very likely mean several APs, while an inner city school it may not involve any at all.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Mabelen

[8filltheheart]

Thank you---this was the impression I got. That they can essentially gauge a student's passion without necessarily a bunch of APs etc. Obviously, only a really motivated student would WANT to apply to Stanford or MIT---homeschooled or public schooled. I guess a point I wanted to make is that if I only got advice here on how to educate my kids, even to send them to a public university, they would be taking all AP, getting their AA while simultaneously graduating high school and have passed all freshmen level college classes by CLEP :tongue_smilie: Nothing necessarily wrong with any of this for motivated students, but for 'regular' students like mine---it was relieving to visit the sites of the actual colleges that lowered this super high unattainable standard for us to a realistic level----even making Stanford an application possibility for my son when the time comes, even with just mom teaching him using just 'regular' homeschool high school curriculum. ;)

 

I'm not convinced that that is what was actually stated. What is "regular" homeschool curriculum? I'm not sure what that means. If it is suggesting that taking 3 yrs of Apologia,4 yrs of TT math, IEW for writing, etc is going to make you competitive for admissions into schools like Stanford, I am thinking that is probably an unrealistic interpretation.

 

Passion that might lead to creative subjects being studied or taking advantage of homeschooling for unique opportunities, those are going to be a huge plus. But, the academics are going to have to be strong and I would suspect that most "regular" homeschool materials unless used at least to the advanced levels are not going to meet the standards.

[Maura in NY]

We walked the middle line here, and I think that unless your student is aiming for a specific school, it's a reasonable route. I think you do need to show objective proof of your student's abilities if you are applying to a "highly" or "very" competitive school. Schools that are "test optional" may not feel that way when it comes to a homeschooled student. This is more true for schools that draw the majority of their applicants from their own state. They know the high school programs -- which ones are tough and which ones are lame, and can use the course load and GPA to make a good assessment.

 

But I also think that it's important not to lose sight of the unique opportunities of homeschooling. If you pursue the AP/CC path to the exclusion of passion-driven learning, your student's transcript will look like every honors student from the local ps. For some colleges that might be a good thing. For others, you're better off playing the "unique" card.

 

FWIW, as a single data point, middle of the road for us was SAT and ACT, SAT IIs in Biology , US History, Spanish, 1 CC class, and 2 APs taken senior year (so the grades & test scores were not available at application time). Ds was accepted at 9 out of 11 schools, rejected from an Ivy, and wait-listed at the 11th. The schools he was accepted to ran the gamut from "competitive" to "most competitive".

 

If schools explicitly say they want to see the student taking the most challenging classes available, just how would they judge whether this has been the case without any external data?

 

The key word here is AVAILABLE. How do you want to define available? I defined it as the classes my son took, whether it was CC, AP, or home-brewed. I noted in the Common Ap that we choose not to pile on the CC and AP classes partly because of expense and partly because homeschooling is about pursuing intellectual passions, not jumping through hoops.

 

Well-rounded counts, folks. We heard repeatedly from the colleges that because it's easy for guidance counselors and students to see what numbers you need to get accepted, people tend to self-select for schools where they stand a good chance of getting in. So, in terms of test scores and GPAs, the applicant pool can be pretty homogeneous. If the student has the SAT and/or ACT scores, plus a small handful of other outside classes/tests to show the academic ability, another half-dozen AP scores aren't going to be the thing that makes a student stand out. Most of my son's acceptance letters mentioned his "extracurricular" activities, which aren't anything world-shaking, just solid; they show commitment, leadership, passion, service, etc.

 

One thing that helps me when I start thinking I need to beef up the transcript to get into school XYZ because they like to see such and such, is whether or not that philosophy matches with our overall educational philosophy. In other words, If the college values the numbers over the learning experience, then it probably isn't the kind of school he'd be happy at anyway. And I totally get that if your child has a particular career goal for which a particular college or type of college is the goal, you have to make choices accordingly.

 

Of course, in the end, the best advice is to end the speculation by calling any colleges your child might be interested in, explain how you homeschool, and ask what they would need in order for your student to be a competitive applicant. They are happy to tell you.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Maura in NY

[Nan in Mass]

I think colleges that say this only apply it to students from known high schools OR students who have done something spectacular, something more spectacular than being able to get by on little sleep and take lots of AP classes. Places like MIT are dealing with students who are very bright and can do lots of APs relatively easily. When they say not to bother with lots of APs, I think they really mean, "We know you can do lots of APs but that might not be the best use of your time. We'd rather you did something more creative and interesting, like invented a super cheap solar panel or set up a non-profit that radically improved life for a starving town or solved the problem of global warming or ..." They do not mean "If you can't handle the academic workload of ten AP classes, we will still consider you." I'm guessing, but we saw this on a smaller scale when my middle one was looking at colleges. We spoke to several who said they didn't need SAT scores, but when they heard my son was homeschooled, they said, "Well, in that case, we do need SAT or ACT scores. Even if you have CC classes, we would still like SAT or ACT scores." And by CC classes, they didn't mean one or two. They meant at least three or four academic ones. In general, we found that colleges wanted unique and creative on top of excellent, verified academics, not instead of, no matter how much learning was involved in those unique or creative activites. Basically, they want students with excellent academic skills. I don't really blame them. They teach via academics, mainly, and need students who can handle a heavy academic load.

 

-Nan

 

ETA that every college we spoke to acknowledged that some school systems offered more opportunities than others, and they took that into account. I still think, though, that the top colleges probably need to see something outstanding about the student in order to consider them - an interesting extra curricular achievement or high SAT or ACT scores or a high GPA. If they are not familiar with the high school (homeschooling falls into this slot), then they will need something to verify the high GPA, something like test scores. I think colleges like tests like the SAT and ACT because it allows them to compare apples to oranges.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[creekland]

From my limited perspective here at the beginning of my son's college search, quality and uniqueness of an applicant count for so much more than the sheer number of APs. There are thousands of public school kids applying to the same colleges our kids will apply to, and most of those kids will look alike on paper: same AP courses, same high school clubs and sports. Good liberal arts colleges, including the Ivies, want to see something unique that will round out their student body, and I think our homeschool kids should do what they can to highlight their uniqueness.

 

Of course outside verification of their education and ability matters, whether it is APs or SAT IIs or CC classes. But we get to package applications to highlight what makes our children's education unique, what skills they have, and how they took advantage of the opportunities offered by their flexible schedules. We get to provide book lists, course descriptions and most importantly, our kids have essays in which to sell themselves.

 

The LACs we've visited so far welcome homeschoolers -- they LIKE homeschoolers, in fact. And what really has struck me is about these small LACs is that they all describe a homeschooler's dream situation. The freshman seminars that are book and writing intensive with small classes that facilitate discussion. The ability to shape your own major, the mentorships offered by the faculty with research and internships opportunities. The senior capstone projects.

 

Really, don't fret about the number of APs. Once you decide how to do the required coursework and how to prove your child's college readiness, whether SAT IIs, AP tests or CC classes, you should focus on facilitating and documenting your child's unique interests and activities. Then you should look for a college that fits.

 

This is getting long! There is a lovely thread on the homeschool board at CollegeConfidential.com by a teen who got admitted to Stanford. He is the quintessential self-studying homeschooler and he is happy to answer any and all questions.

 

This is what we've heard too - at every single college I've checked with. I've read the teen's thread who's going to Stanford, but again, he's one individual (as we all are). We've chosen our path based on what's available, affordable, and meets what we think are our needs. I know my boys will get in to places. Whether that place is their #1 choice or not will be up to a higher power. If it's not their #1 choice, I'll remind them that I didn't go to my #1 choice either (due to finances - I made it in) and it turned out just fine.

 

After we visit places this summer and fall his list might adjust a bit anyway.

[4wildberrys]

I'm not convinced that that is what was actually stated. What is "regular" homeschool curriculum? I'm not sure what that means. If it is suggesting that taking 3 yrs of Apologia,4 yrs of TT math, IEW for writing, etc is going to make you competitive for admissions into schools like Stanford, I am thinking that is probably an unrealistic interpretation.

 

Passion that might lead to creative subjects being studied or taking advantage of homeschooling for unique opportunities, those are going to be a huge plus. But, the academics are going to have to be strong and I would suspect that most "regular" homeschool materials unless used at least to the advanced levels are not going to meet the standards.

 

You could be right here---but in a case like ours where finances are an issue and availability of ANY AP or CC is out of the question---passion will have to suffice along with these types of 'regular' curriculum. Besides, when the time comes for ds to do his applying to colleges, and IF he is interested in a high caliber school, his homeschool academic record and his passions will be something discussed and evaluated by the schools he's applying to and not the 'WTM Rigor Evaluation Committee'! I'm really being silly with that one---but you know what I mean. I am setting up his course of studies to be challenging, interesting and educational and affordable so we still CAN homeschool all the way until graduation---but not setting up anything to impress any colleges! :tongue_smilie:

[regentrude]

IF he is interested in a high caliber school, his homeschool academic record and his passions will be something discussed and evaluated by the schools he's applying to

 

That's exactly one of the points where I feel unsure, not being an insider in the college admissions procedure. How much is needed so that an admissions person even makes the effort to discuss and evaluate an application?

 

I definitely do not believe they look this closely at every single application - impossible. So, what is necessary to make the cut for the admissions person to become interested enough to bother to read course descriptions, homeschool philosophies, interview the student, give the student's unique talents a chance to shine ?

[creekland]

That's exactly one of the points where I feel unsure, not being an insider in the college admissions procedure. How much is needed so that an admissions person even makes the effort to discuss and evaluate an application?

 

I definitely do not believe they look this closely at every single application - impossible. So, what is necessary to make the cut for the admissions person to become interested enough to bother to read course descriptions, homeschool philosophies, interview the student, give the student's unique talents a chance to shine ?

 

Admissions has been honest with me (so it seems). It's the SAT/ACT score that sets the bar - especially for homeschoolers. They will glance over lower scores (sometimes) just to see if anything catches their eye, and if so, they will look at it more closely. They look at ALL high scores closely.

[regentrude]

Admissions has been honest with me (so it seems). It's the SAT/ACT score that sets the bar - especially for homeschoolers. They will glance over lower scores (sometimes) just to see if anything catches their eye, and if so, they will look at it more closely. They look at ALL high scores closely.

 

Thanks, creekland! That's what I had suspected - all creativity and drive and wonderful stuff that was mentioned won't count unless backed by a high test score, at least for selective schools.

[creekland]

Thanks, creekland! That's what I had suspected - all creativity and drive and wonderful stuff that was mentioned won't count unless backed by a high test score, at least for selective schools.

 

Even less selective schools set the bar with the ACT/SAT. It's just a lower bar. Even testing optional schools want SAT/ACT from homeschoolers, though I suspect they might look at other tests if one has them.

 

The other tests (AP, CLEP, SAT II) are part of the "extra," except some schools require SAT IIs if one chooses the SAT instead of the ACT. A few schools require SAT IIs anyway or just from homeschoolers.

[8filltheheart]

You could be right here---but in a case like ours where finances are an issue and availability of ANY AP or CC is out of the question---passion will have to suffice along with these types of 'regular' curriculum. Besides, when the time comes for ds to do his applying to colleges, and IF he is interested in a high caliber school, his homeschool academic record and his passions will be something discussed and evaluated by the schools he's applying to and not the 'WTM Rigor Evaluation Committee'! I'm really being silly with that one---but you know what I mean. I am setting up his course of studies to be challenging, interesting and educational and affordable so we still CAN homeschool all the way until graduation---but not setting up anything to impress any colleges! :tongue_smilie:

 

I guess I don't see strong academics and spending lots of $$ as necessarily related. There are a lot of avenues open beyond "regular" curriculum that are easily available to homeschoolers. People were homeschooling long before curriculum was available that was written to homeschoolers, before coops somehow became the norm, before online courses, etc. I know that Kathy in Richmond has posted about she managed to teach her kids on a rather frugal budget and her kids were accepted at Stanford and MIT.

[4wildberrys]

That's exactly one of the points where I feel unsure, not being an insider in the college admissions procedure. How much is needed so that an admissions person even makes the effort to discuss and evaluate an application?

 

I definitely do not believe they look this closely at every single application - impossible. So, what is necessary to make the cut for the admissions person to become interested enough to bother to read course descriptions, homeschool philosophies, interview the student, give the student's unique talents a chance to shine ?

 

Good question! Maybe because there probably still aren't THAT many homeschoolers, and it seems that the admissions process requires a bit more effort, perhaps they do get a closer look that all the 'homogenized' rest??

[4wildberrys]

I guess I don't see strong academics and spending lots of $$ as necessarily related. There are a lot of avenues open beyond "regular" curriculum that are easily available to homeschoolers. People were homeschooling long before curriculum was available that was written to homeschoolers, before coops somehow became the norm, before online courses, etc. I know that Kathy in Richmond has posted about she managed to teach her kids on a rather frugal budget and her kids were accepted at Stanford and MIT.

 

My not very well said point ;) I was thinking that no matter what you use to educate your kids, IF they are the ones with the passion to learn and go to high caliber schools----that will show through even if the only curriculum you could get your hands on was Ace and a good library.

[creekland]

Thanks, creekland! That's what I had suspected - all creativity and drive and wonderful stuff that was mentioned won't count unless backed by a high test score, at least for selective schools.

 

Meant to mention, for ps kids it's not just a high SAT/ACT, it's also a high GPA. With homeschoolers, that's why they want the other stuff - to confirm mommy grades.

 

I've heard of kids with perfect SAT scores get rejected by even some state schools (like one from my Alma mater) due to a low GPA. The explanation given was that they don't want a smart kid who refuses to work with people (namely teachers or profs). The SAT/ACT optional schools show that there are some schools who want that "working with people" personality more than they want test scores (at least from ps students).

 

Highly selective schools want both - ability and personality.

[Luckymama]

Meant to mention, for ps kids it's not just a high SAT/ACT, it's also a high GPA. With homeschoolers, that's why they want the other stuff - to confirm mommy grades.

 

I've heard of kids with perfect SAT scores get rejected by even some state schools (like one from my Alma mater) due to a low GPA. The explanation given was that they don't want a smart kid who refuses to work with people (namely teachers or profs). The SAT/ACT optional schools show that there are some schools who want that "working with people" personality more than they want test scores (at least from ps students).

 

Highly selective schools want both - ability and personality.

 

My son attends a quite well-known private school. The boys know that they need to have SAT/ACT scores + GPA + "most rigorous" course load to be competitive for highly selective schools and/or competitive for large merit awards. They also should have something else going for them, be it athletic or extracurricular or an out-of-school activity (like making Eagle Scout). They are told sophomore year that a passion for one sport/activity is much better than a "collecting" activities to pad their application.

 

If ds hadn't taken the APs he has, his guidance counselor would not have been able to select the "most rigorous" designation on the application. He probably would not have received the merit scholarships he did.

[creekland]

My son attends a quite well-known private school. The boys know that they need to have SAT/ACT scores + GPA + "most rigorous" course load to be competitive for highly selective schools and/or competitive for large merit awards. They also should have something else going for them, be it athletic or extracurricular or an out-of-school activity (like making Eagle Scout). They are told sophomore year that a passion for one sport/activity is much better than a "collecting" activities to pad their application.

 

If ds hadn't taken the APs he has, his guidance counselor would not have been able to select the "most rigorous" designation on the application. He probably would not have received the merit scholarships he did.

 

True, but my answer was in response to what gets an application looked at. Admissions has always told me it's the ACT or SAT score, and for ps kids, GPA. For hs kids, it's whatever they have to support their GPA.

 

THEN the application gets looked at to see who's who, but without the first bar being passed, it doesn't matter what other stuff is there (most of the time - there can be a few exceptions). How high the bar is depends on the college.

[galtgrl]

I guess a point I wanted to make is that if I only got advice here on how to educate my kids, even to send them to a public university, they would be taking all AP, getting their AA while simultaneously graduating high school and have passed all freshmen level college classes by CLEP :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

 

I needed this today!

 

We recently decided that we won't encourage the pursuit of "academic glory" to the detriment of the rest of the family and in opposition to our homeschool mission statement. We were starting to go down a path that was WAAAY too focused on getting in to the "best" colleges/universities, and it wasn't healthy for any of us.

 

I'm sure some families and some individual kids thrive on the kind of pressure and intensity we cringe at, so no judgement is intended. We can't balance that with the rest of our homeschooling....so we won't pursue it.

[creekland]

:lol:

 

I needed this today!

 

We recently decided that we won't encourage the pursuit of "academic glory" to the detriment of the rest of the family and in opposition to our homeschool mission statement. We were starting to go down a path that was WAAAY too focused on getting in to the "best" colleges/universities, and it wasn't healthy for any of us.

 

I'm sure some families and some individual kids thrive on the kind of pressure and intensity we cringe at, so no judgement is intended. We can't balance that with the rest of our homeschooling....so we won't pursue it.

 

In our case "academic glory" isn't a factor at all. I just want each of my boys to go to the college that is right for them. Oldest is quite happy with his choice.

 

Middle son wants to become an MD, so we're in the pursuit of finding a good Pre-Med fit. Considering the last stats I saw had 42000+ applicants applying for 18000+ slots, less than half those applying get into med school. We're picking carefully - also considering our finances.

 

Youngest has his planned college choice picked out. Right now it's the University of Hawaii (he wants Botany in the tropics). If that remains his choice, his education will be tailored toward that place.

[galtgrl]

In our case "academic glory" isn't a factor at all. I just want each of my boys to go to the college that is right for them. Oldest is quite happy with his choice.

 

 

and that's great! I was just using an exaggerated term to demonstrate what was, for us, the focus on the academics to the detriment of other things that were equally (or more) important.

 

I'm happy for you!

[justamouse]

I guess a point I wanted to make is that if I only got advice here on how to educate my kids, even to send them to a public university, they would be taking all AP, getting their AA while simultaneously graduating high school and have passed all freshmen level college classes by CLEP :tongue_smilie:

 

heh. yup.

[Luckymama]

I've heard that we were pushing ds his entire academic career--why should this last year be any different.

 

Leaving now.

[Muttichen]

APs and SAT subject tests give homeschoolers an objective measure to show the quality of their education. Having lots of APs makes your child stand out and shows admissions people they've had an education as rigorous as that offered anywhere. My three oldest each had eight to twelve 5s on APs and 750 and above on eight SAT subject tests, and they were accepted at excellent schools (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Duke, MIT, etc.) It worked for us!

 

Maybe APs aren't required, but they sure don't hurt and the public school kids your children are competing against for admissions and scholarships are taking them.

[imeverywoman]

Jenn, this is a very encouraging post! Thank you!

[6packofun]

Yes! We suffer from similar financial and location "disadvantages" and have to get creative about opportunities, BUT reading this makes me hopeful that we won't sound desperate or hokey on transcripts and our experiences will count, too! lol

[creekland]

I guess a point I wanted to make is that if I only got advice here on how to educate my kids, even to send them to a public university, they would be taking all AP, getting their AA while simultaneously graduating high school and have passed all freshmen level college classes by CLEP :tongue_smilie:

 

I've been on here for a couple of years now and this has never been the impression I've gotten. I've seen where it's been a legitimate option for some people, but never one that has been mandatory to get into college. At some 4 year schools having oodles of credit or an AA can be a disadvantage. Generally the people following this route live in places where cc classes are free or cheap and they mainly want to save money. That's not the case for us. (Yes, we want to save money, but cc classes aren't cheap, nor do I consider them the same level of education that we are looking for.)

 

In my own experience my oldest only had one cc course - his senior year - and he got in everywhere he wanted to apply with decent merit aid. He did not want a highly selective school, but they were more middle of the pack schools. He didn't have any AP. He didn't have any CLEP. I'm not in favor of a 2 year degree then transferring. We even use TT (a math curriculum many people don't consider rigorous). We use (and like) Apologia. He did have a decent ACT score. I've never felt out of place on this board.

 

What parents need to realize is that there are different levels of colleges. (This is the same info our guidance office will tell ps parents.) There are very highly selective colleges, highly selective, selective, and not selective. What a student needs to get into one type might not even get them looked at in another. The first two things selective colleges look at are SAT or ACT scores followed by GPA. For homeschoolers, GPA needs to be backed up by something. Sometimes the SAT/ACT scores alone work. Then "everything else" comes into play. At the very highly selective colleges no one really knows exactly what will work on any given year. The admission rates are very low - for everyone.

 

To determine whether one might "fit" at a certain school, look at the student's test scores and the middle 50% at the school they are considering. (Most of these can be found at collegeboard.com by searching for the college, then clicking on the SAT/AP button.) If their stats are in line, their application will get looked at. They may, or may not, get accepted. If they are significantly below the stats, they'll need "something else" to get them looked at - and some schools won't look. That's life.

 

All I see on here are parents who have had experience sharing their experiences with others. For those whose students aren't considering Stanford or other similar very highly selective schools, the "needs" are different. I'm glad parents share what helped get their kids there (even though Stanford doesn't even make our list of schools to consider).

 

There's no shame at all in any different path. We ALL benefit when AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE share what worked for them for wherever they chose to apply or go. We then sift the info to see what might be feasible for us.

 

At every school I've checked with, homeschoolers are welcome, and even more than that, desired. There are a few schools where this is not the case (and I'm glad when people share that info too). However, these same schools also tell me homeschoolers need to "back up" their grades with something. It doesn't have to be AP or multiple AP tests (which is great for our needs since APs around here are difficult to come by). The ACT and/or SAT appear to be almost mandatory unless one goes the cc route. This, too, is life as I know it.

[Joan in GE]

For us, AP courses were partly necessary just to get to a higher level of studies - for more challenging coursework. We've done a lot of wandering around following interests, but with a schedule of studies, I think more got accomplished than with the meandering we were doing. We still encourage following interests in some subjects, but with the challenge of AP coursework, I saw a lot more intensified self-application. (We don't have a CC options here).

 

The problem with mommy grades is that every mommy has different standards of what is "excellent", "good", "flunking", etc.

 

I think it is great when the student themself is so motivated that they can get the energy and drive to really delve into a study. For my ds, he does that in a few areas, eg art, but many subjects have so many possibilities that he needed direction too, and then he had the energy.

 

My dd did lots and lots of artwork on her own mostly. To document it on her apps, she took photos & scanned her work, then set up a Flickr account online. At the end of the Common App, there's a spot for extra information; she included a link to her site.

 

Thanks for mentioning this!

 

Joan

 

ETA - I saw a big change in his capacities between 9th and 11th. He did things in 11th that I could not have imagined him doing when I saw him working in 9th. I don't quite know how it all happened, whether it was really applying himself in math which then gave him this base for physics that helped or what.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Nan in Mass]

Isn't that supposed to be ayuh?

:)