Quebeckers not allowed to homeschool

[Embassy]

The only thing I like about balanced literacy is its stated claim of getting children to love books and read real books. Unfortunately, the hundreds of children I have remediated in my 17 years as a phonics tutor have not been able to read books until I taught them phonics using a lot of nonsense words to help them undo their guessing habits from learning sight words and being taught to guess from context.

 

I think it was disruptive to my students' brains, the older my students were and the longer they had been guessing at words, the longer it took to remediate them and the harder it was to remediate them. The only older students who have remediated very quickly were the students I taught in a homeless shelter in Los Angeles, they had missed so much school they had never been taught sight words, the were able to quickly get up to the 12th grade level, they were fastest older students I have ever taught, much faster than my middle class students who have been taught sight words.

 

I think you are referring to the whole word approach and not the whole language philosophy. They are quite different.

[ElizabethB]

I think you are referring to the whole word approach and not the whole language philosophy. They are quite different.

 

My remedial students all came from schools that claimed to teach phonics with a balanced literacy approach. They taught the Dolch Sight words and used leveled readers that included many of these sight words and encouraged guessing.

 

I am a big fan of books, love of books is what got me started tutoring. My first month of tutoring, I tutored with an organization that encouraged a whole language approach. It was based on experiencial stories. It did not work, so I switched to phonics and started tutoring as a volunteer on my own.

[Embassy]

I think most of us use whole language in combination with phonics. However, I'm guessing very few of use here use the whole word approach. I find this site describes what whole language is.

[ElizabethB]

I think most of us use whole language in combination with phonics. However, I'm guessing very few of use here use the whole word approach. I find this site describes what whole language is.

 

My remedial students got that type of teaching--intrinsic phonics, cues from pictures for guessing. It fails 30 to 40 percent of them in a good school where the parents give their children more explicit help or send them to Sylvan for phonics tutoring. In the inner city schools, it fails more of them.

 

I have lived near 2 schools that taught phonics with direct instruction methods and few sight words and did not find a single failure from either of those schools, and found hundreds of failures from the other schools in all the states where we have lived. I thought I found a failure from each of those 2 schools, but later found out in both cases that the students had transferred in from schools which taught with a balanced literacy approach.

[WishboneDawn]

I read the judgement online. A 'funny' tidbit that I learned is that in Canada, you have freedom of religion but it does not extend to your kids. So this means if circumcision is outlawed one day, the fact that the parents are Jewish would not be enough to get a religious exemption to circumcise the son. You can do what you want with your religion but cannot pass it on to your kids until they're old enough to choose it on their own. Wow. I didn't know that.

 

I'm not sure I really believe that. If that were the case I'm quite sure infant baptisms, Sunday school, youth groups, even church attendance by children would not be allowed. That those are all perfectly legal things to do shows that you certainly can pass your religion and faith on to your children.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I would encourage you to look at these studies in a larger context. Perhaps a portion of students performed better on a phonics test after receiving phonics instruction. By no means does this mean they far surpassed others in reading in the long term. Often these studies are biased or you can find the exact opposite conclusion in a different type of study. Often the "quick and dirty" quantitative studies are favored over the longer and more in-depth qualitative studies--in fact, qualitative studies were completely omitted from the National Reading Report that ended up recommending No Child Left Behind, with disastrous consequences.

 

I've never heard anybody argue that a phonics-only approach is best. Come on! You think balanced literacy--as in, having children read real books and be read to a lot, in addition to phonics instruction--is less effective in the long term that a phonics-only approach?

 

And as for the previous poster who said that whole language is disruptive to the brain--I don't even know what to say to that.

 

IMHO I don't think most phonics proponents are saying to do only phonics and not to do tons of reading at all:001_huh: From what I have read, phonics proponents are saying that many reading techniques such as whole language and others only do minimal phonics instruction at best which is ineffective:(. I say both in depth phonics instruction and tons of reading can be done and are not mutually exclusive:D Whereas minimal phonics instruction is harmful IMHO.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

... you certainly can pass your religion and faith on to your children.

 

only as long as it's not detrimental for the children. There's quite a push against circumcision, because it's surgery that's not life-saving, and that the child cannot consent to. Everything else isn't against the child's rights. But education (read school attendance) is a right. You can't use religion to defend homeschooling (at least that's what this judge said, we'll have to see if the decision stands or not!)

[KristinaBreece]

This article fleshed out the story a bit:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/quebec-judge-orders-three-year-old-into-daycare-for-socialization

 

I have found that these situations often are way more complex than the initial news stories would have you believe, so I tend to withhold judgment until I can dig up more info. I still have a lot of questions about this one that the news stories have not clarified. A couple of things I found interesting in the news story above:

 

"The family, who have homeschooled for four years, were reported to the province’s Youth Protection Services in November 2009 after a run-in with the local school board...

 

Faris said the judge gave “excess weight†to the government’s experts, who he says “found that one child’s hearing impairment ‘indicated’ that the parents could not be trusted and therefore all the children should be enrolled in public school programs.†Judge Bernier determined that the security and development of the children was compromised by parental negligence.

 

In her ruling, Judge Bernier called the mother’s teaching approach “outdated,†saying it emphasized repetition exercises and acquisition of knowledge rather than the Ministry’s preferred approach of teaching learning skills. She also criticizes the elder children’s social development, noting that they had difficulty at first with the other children when they entered the classroom.

 

“The parents, though aware … of the need to stimulate each child by interactions with peers of the same age, outside of the family, either at school, kindergarten, or day care or occasional education trips, maintain their interest in the teaching model of the home school,†she wrote, going on to lament that they are “refusing to integrate the youngest in kindergarten or day care, and opposing educational outings for the children.â€

 

...the parents apparently had not obtained a homeschooling exemption under the Education Act, which requires that the parents offer a program equivalent to that offered in the schools."

 

The bolded is the kicker for me. They didn't follow the rules. If you're required to obtain a "homeschooling exemption" and fail to do so, I can see where the government would step in.

[Spy Car]

only as long as it's not detrimental for the children. There's quite a push against circumcision, because it's surgery that's not life-saving, and that the child cannot consent to. Everything else isn't against the child's rights. But education (read school attendance) is a right. You can't use religion to defend homeschooling (at least that's what this judge said, we'll have to see if the decision stands or not!)

 

Not that we want to go down this rabbit-hole but the potentially life-saving benefits of circumcision is a matter of considerable debate.

 

It is unfortunate that traditional anti-Semitism and burgeoning anti-Islamic feelings are so bound up into the "debate" on circumcision. But who are we kidding?

 

Bill

[WishboneDawn]

only as long as it's not detrimental for the children. There's quite a push against circumcision, because it's surgery that's not life-saving, and that the child cannot consent to. Everything else isn't against the child's rights. But education (read school attendance) is a right. You can't use religion to defend homeschooling (at least that's what this judge said, we'll have to see if the decision stands or not!)

 

Okay, I'm with you now.

[WishboneDawn]

Not that we want to go down this rabbit-hole but the potentially life-saving benefits of circumcision is a matter of considerable debate.

 

It is unfortunate that traditional anti-Semitism and burgeoning anti-Islamic feelings are so bound up into the "debate" on circumcision. But who are we kidding?

 

Bill

 

Not that we want to go down this rabbit hole but why don't we go down this rabbit hole, eh? :)

[Spy Car]

Not that we want to go down this rabbit hole but why don't we go down this rabbit hole, eh? :)

 

When you say "eh" it sounds so Canadian :D

 

Bill

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, I agree! I think our language has too many exceptions to use only phonics. A combination approach is really necessary, along with tons of practice. Kids in large classrooms just don't get enough practice. Reading a sentence or two a day is not enough!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

The bolded is the kicker for me. They didn't follow the rules. If you're required to obtain a "homeschooling exemption" and fail to do so, I can see where the government would step in.

 

Nope, the law doesn't state that you need a homeschooling exemption before you start homeschooling. The law is quite vague in fact. One interpretation of the law is that you cannot even start homeschooling before you get the exemption, but the exemption can only be obtained once the kids have done a year of homeschooling, so it's a catch-22.

 

80% to 90% of homeschoolers I know do not have that exemption. We're almost all under the radar. This so called exemption is not an exemption at all. You have to follow exactly what's done in schools, including planning bathroom breaks like schools. One family was turned down because their house didn't have enough fire escapes for a school (it was fine as a house, but didn't pass the standards for a public building). It's just crazy.

You also have to follow the provincial curriculum to the letter, while most of us homeschool *because* we don't want our kids exposed to that curriculum. It's not for religious reason, we just think the academics suck. You're not even allowed to teach *more* than what's planned per year.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Yes, I agree! I think our language has too many exceptions to use only phonics.

 

This phonics subthread makes me laugh, because we're not even talking about teaching English here. Phonics in French are quite a different beast, and researches that apply to English do not apply to French.

[mcconnellboys]

I really, really wish I could find the latest study on this, which someone posted here back in January or February, I think. I've looked and looked and can't find it. It talked about how learning to incorporate sounding out of words is so important to most kids. I know that this will not work for some kids with particular LD's, but I mean most in the general population.

[Audrey]

Refusing to integrate? I take pride in that. I don't want to integrate my child into a broken system.

 

I feel bad for these folks!

 

I think you need to understand, though, that when the Quebec official says "refusal to integrate" he is talking about something entirely different than what you are talking about. He is talking about integration into the Quebec culture and language. There is a very long political and social history behind the use of that phrase "refusal to integrate" than the mere surface would suggest.

 

It is a complicated thing, to be a Quebeçois. It is not just about living in a province. It is not just about a language. It is not just about a religion. It is not just about politics. It is about so much more than that.

 

I don't fully comprehend it all either, even though I live in a largely francophone community and area (in another province). Yet, I can understand how deep the issues run in this homeschooling story. It isn't really about the right to homeschool. It is about almost everything else but homeschooling.

[Audrey]

This phonics subthread makes me laugh, because we're not even talking about teaching English here. Phonics in French are quite a different beast, and researches that apply to English do not apply to French.

 

Truer words never spoken, Cleo.

 

Audrey ~~ who can neither hear nor properly pronounce the difference between the vowel sounds in veux and vu, but who knows what it means when hearing it in context at least, and who apologizes daily for her crappy American accent when speaking French. :001_unsure:

[Sputterduck]

I think you need to understand, though, that when the Quebec official says "refusal to integrate" he is talking about something entirely different than what you are talking about. He is talking about integration into the Quebec culture and language. There is a very long political and social history behind the use of that phrase "refusal to integrate" than the mere surface would suggest.

 

It is a complicated thing, to be a Quebeçois. It is not just about living in a province. It is not just about a language. It is not just about a religion. It is not just about politics. It is about so much more than that.

 

I don't fully comprehend it all either, even though I live in a largely francophone community and area (in another province). Yet, I can understand how deep the issues run in this homeschooling story. It isn't really about the right to homeschool. It is about almost everything else but homeschooling.

 

Ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation. I don't comprehend court mandated integration into culture. But that's coming from an American and we are generally quite proud of being a melting pot of different cultures.

[Audrey]

Ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation. I don't comprehend court mandated integration into culture. But that's coming from an American and we are generally quite proud of being a melting pot of different cultures.

 

;) I know. I used to be an American, too.

 

Generally, the rest of Canada is quite proud of being welcoming to a multitude of cultures. But, Quebec isn't Canada. They really do have a distinct society -- even so far as having a distinct government that quite often does things that would never be allowed elsewhere in Canada. I won't bore you with long history lessons, but if you were interested, you can find a lot of good information about modern Quebec and its struggle to remain a distinct society.

 

*sigh* I love my adopted country dearly, but we're too much like my family sometimes -- always the one person who doesn't play like the rest. We still love them, but we rarely understand them.

[WishboneDawn]

I think you need to understand, though, that when the Quebec official says "refusal to integrate" he is talking about something entirely different than what you are talking about. He is talking about integration into the Quebec culture and language. There is a very long political and social history behind the use of that phrase "refusal to integrate" than the mere surface would suggest.

 

It is a complicated thing, to be a Quebeçois. It is not just about living in a province. It is not just about a language. It is not just about a religion. It is not just about politics. It is about so much more than that.

 

I don't fully comprehend it all either, even though I live in a largely francophone community and area (in another province). Yet, I can understand how deep the issues run in this homeschooling story. It isn't really about the right to homeschool. It is about almost everything else but homeschooling.

 

Main thing is that although we should hope for better for homeschoolers in Quebec we shouldn't fear that what's happening to homeschoolers there is any kind of warning to the rest of us or indication of what we might face.

[Sputterduck]

;) I know. I used to be an American, too.

 

Generally, the rest of Canada is quite proud of being welcoming to a multitude of cultures. But, Quebec isn't Canada. They really do have a distinct society -- even so far as having a distinct government that quite often does things that would never be allowed elsewhere in Canada. I won't bore you with long history lessons, but if you were interested, you can find a lot of good information about modern Quebec and its struggle to remain a distinct society.

 

*sigh* I love my adopted country dearly, but we're too much like my family sometimes -- always the one person who doesn't play like the rest. We still love them, but we rarely understand them.

 

Oh, ok. I guess I used to be American, too. I'm Mexican now. :tongue_smilie:

 

Reading about this actually sounds like an interesting way to spend my evening.

[WishboneDawn]

Ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation. I don't comprehend court mandated integration into culture. But that's coming from an American and we are generally quite proud of being a melting pot of different cultures.

 

The rest of Canada is generally pretty proud of our mosaic approach. But Quebec...

 

France traded Quebec away. It's citizens were subject to derision and discrimination within Canada for their language and religion. The Catholic Church had an iron grip on it (culturally and in terms of government) for generations right up until 1959. On the occasion of the patriation (a wholey Canadian word invented for the occasion) of our constitution from the UK our Prime Minister had all the provinces meet and sign it without Quebec.

 

Quebec has had been fiercely holding onto it's sense of self for a very long time through some very difficult times. Not to mention that it's now a nation within a much larger nation that shares a continent with a cultural juggernaut. They've quite protective of what they have.:)

[twoforjoy]

I really, really wish I could find the latest study on this, which someone posted here back in January or February, I think. I've looked and looked and can't find it. It talked about how learning to incorporate sounding out of words is so important to most kids. I know that this will not work for some kids with particular LD's, but I mean most in the general population.

 

That's the problem, though. It's important for most kids, but fails for others. And, teachers are charged with making sure every student comes out of their classrooms having met certain objectives. Sure, that doesn't happen in practice, but it is the intent, and so any method that will not work at all for a subset of students is of course going to come under fire.

 

The other thing I think we need to realize is that phonics works best in the context of a language-rich environment. For students coming from homes where they are read to, where books are all around, where they are even just talked to a lot, an exclusive phonics approach can work very well. But, unfortunately that's not the case for all students. Many teachers are dealing with students who are not just never read to or don't have books in their homes, but who aren't even spoken to very much (there's been some interesting work done on how different cultural groups relate to their children and how little verbal interaction there is with children in some of them). For those students, exclusive phonics is going to be far less effective.

 

But, again, today the educational trend is toward a blended/balanced approach--teaching phonics formally but within a language-rich classroom environment (items are labelled with their names, students are read to, etc.)--and that's been the case for the last 15 years or so. We really can't blame anything, education-wise, on a lack of phonics, because exclusive whole language fell out of favor in the early-to-mid 90s and since then it's extremely rare to find a classroom where formal phonics isn't taught in some way.

 

As a homeschooling parent, I'm a big fan of phonics. My son learned to read pretty much on his own by 4, in a "whole language" home environment, but I did some some formal phonics work with him to help the process along when he was 3 and expressed an interest in being a more proficient reader. I won't hesitate to use formal phonics when teaching my other children. But, if I had to teach a classroom of 25 or 30 students coming from a wide range of backgrounds with a wide range of abilities, I would absolutely feel like I needed to incorporate some whole-language instruction (the kind of thing that's just part of growing up in our house) into the curriculum.

Edited May 13, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Sputterduck]

The rest of Canada is generally pretty proud of our mosaic approach. But Quebec...

 

France traded Quebec away. It's citizens were subject to derision and discrimination within Canada for their language and religion. The Catholic Church had an iron grip on it (culturally and in terms of government) for generations right up until 1959. On the occasion of the patriation (a wholey Canadian word invented for the occasion) of our constitution from the UK our Prime Minister had all the provinces meet and sign it without Quebec.

 

Quebec has had been fiercely holding onto it's sense of self for a very long time through some very difficult times. Not to mention that it's now a nation within a much larger nation that shares a continent with a cultural juggernaut. They've quite protective of what they have.:)

 

Well, I'm surprised. I thought Canada was a magically happy place full of nice to a fault people. At least that what it seemed like on tv growing up in America. :tongue_smilie: Oh, except for Tom Green. It was not nice what he painted on his dad's car.

[twoforjoy]

It fails 30 to 40 percent of them in a good school where the parents give their children more explicit help or send them to Sylvan for phonics tutoring.

 

Are you claiming that 30-40% of students in our schools--most of which take a balanced approach--are coming out unable to read? I would love to see some stats to back that up.

 

I have quite honestly NEVER met a person who went to a decent public school (i.e., not a really horrible inner city school) and/or who had parents even minimally interested in their education and who didn't have an LD of some sort who was actually unable to read, no matter how they were taught.

 

It's certainly possible, as well, that the reason the tutoring works is because it's one-on-one. One-on-one instruction of any sort is likely to be far more effective than classroom instruction of any sort. I'm guessing that most students coming from a phonics-heavy traditional classroom would still end up faring better in a one-on-one whole language environment. That's why homeschoolers generally have better educational outcomes than traditionally-schooled children, whether those homeschooled kids were trained rigorously in phonics and grammar or were radically unschooled. It's not that homeschoolers just use better methods than classroom teachers, because we know that homeschoolers use wildly different methods, but that they can invest a ton of one-on-one time in their students. It's not the method that matters as much as the setting, and one-on-one instruction will pretty much always trump a classroom. We can't compare educational techniques by comparing how the outcomes of one in a traditional classroom setting with the other in a one-on-one tutoring setting.

Edited May 13, 2011 by twoforjoy

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Well, I'm surprised. I thought Canada was a magically happy place full of nice to a fault people.

 

I bet you watched that TV show called Due South. Loved the show ;-)

 

But none of that applies to Quebec. We're weird, what can I say? I've been insulted because I'm a French Canadian who can speak English. I've sold my soul. (oh really???)

 

There are days where I want to leave this province, and then I realise there's nowhere else I could live. As much as I don't fit in here, (and I'm a direct descendant of the first colonists!!!) I don't fit in the rest of Canada either, and I don't think I could live in the States. So I'm stuck. Between a ROC and a hard place.

[LittleIzumi]

Well, I'm surprised. I thought Canada was a magically happy place full of nice to a fault people. At least that what it seemed like on tv growing up in America. :tongue_smilie:

Like Red Green? :lol::lol:

[WishboneDawn]

Well, I'm surprised. I thought Canada was a magically happy place full of nice to a fault people.

 

We just have a good marketing department. :D

[hana]

We just have a good marketing department. :D

 

:lol:

[Sputterduck]

So am I to understand that all of you Canadians are not like Anne of Green Gables?

 

My worldview is now in distress.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Sputterduck

[nmoira]

So am I to understand that all of you Canadians are not like Anne of Green Gables?

 

My worldview is now in distress.

 

But we're not all like Pam(ela) Anderson either. :tongue_smilie:

[zaichiki]

I have quite honestly NEVER met a person who went to a decent public school (i.e., not a really horrible inner city school) and/or who had parents even minimally interested in their education and who didn't have an LD of some sort who was actually unable to read, no matter how they were taught.

 

Well, now, there's your 30% (inner city schools/poor and immigrant populations, parents who are not involved in their kids' education, and LDs).

 

I really don't know anything about the statistics or studies of phonics vs. whole language, but I taught in inner city schools. I taught in suburban schools where I met some students whose parents couldn't read and who were obviously sending along the "who cares about school" message to their kids. I have taught kids with LDs. I have taught using phonics and I have taught using sight words. (I chose to use phonics with my own kids, but two of them had already taught themselves to read by that point and it was a mix of "figured-out" the phonics rules and sight words.)

 

So, I type all of this to explain that I have no dog in this fight. I've seen strong readers who have come from inner city schools, from immigrant families, with LDs, and from uninvolved parents. I have also seen illiterate kids and adults from these same situations.

 

I wonder if those exceptions you mentioned in your post, though, may in fact be that 30% illiteracy.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Are you claiming that 30-40% of students in our schools--most of which take a balanced approach--are coming out unable to read? I would love to see some stats to back that up.

 

I have quite honestly NEVER met a person who went to a decent public school (i.e., not a really horrible inner city school) and/or who had parents even minimally interested in their education and who didn't have an LD of some sort who was actually unable to read, no matter how they were taught.

 

It's certainly possible, as well, that the reason the tutoring works is because it's one-on-one. One-on-one instruction of any sort is likely to be far more effective than classroom instruction of any sort. I'm guessing that most students coming from a phonics-heavy traditional classroom would still end up faring better in a one-on-one whole language environment. That's why homeschoolers generally have better educational outcomes than traditionally-schooled children, whether those homeschooled kids were trained rigorously in phonics and grammar or were radically unschooled. It's not that homeschoolers just use better methods than classroom teachers, because we know that homeschoolers use wildly different methods, but that they can invest a ton of one-on-one time in their students. It's not the method that matters as much as the setting, and one-on-one instruction will pretty much always trump a classroom. We can't compare educational techniques by comparing how the outcomes of one in a traditional classroom setting with the other in a one-on-one tutoring setting.

 

According to the NAEP site only 38% of 12th grade students were at or above proficient in reading:001_huh: 74% were at or above basic which means only partial proficiency at best. I call that pretty sad in my book:(

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/main2009/2011455.asp

 

Again I say teaching in depth, detailed phonics and reading tons of books are not mutually exclusive IMHO. I think many schools are dropping the ball on this.

[KristinaBreece]

Well, I'm surprised. I thought Canada was a magically happy place full of nice to a fault people. At least that what it seemed like on tv growing up in America. :tongue_smilie: Oh, except for Tom Green. It was not nice what he painted on his dad's car.

 

I know, right? I've always wanted to emigrate to Canada, because it seems like this magical, happy place. I envision it like what the US is supposed to be, but isn't. ;)

[Rosie_0801]

There are days where I want to leave this province, and then I realise there's nowhere else I could live. As much as I don't fit in here, (and I'm a direct descendant of the first colonists!!!) I don't fit in the rest of Canada either, and I don't think I could live in the States. So I'm stuck. Between a ROC and a hard place.

 

 

Come to Australia. We have our faults, but no one can claim we are North American. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

[Mommy22alyns]

I bet you watched that TV show called Due South. Loved the show ;-)

 

 

 

Ooh, Due South! Love it! :D

[ElizabethB]

This phonics subthread makes me laugh, because we're not even talking about teaching English here. Phonics in French are quite a different beast, and researches that apply to English do not apply to French.

 

Well, I have French phonics recommendations, too! :D Syllabic phonics free in pdf form, Manuel de lecture and Manuel d'ecriture from La Librairie des Ecoles.

 

I think I also have a good link for a website with some research showing the superiority of this method, but I don't know enough French to know for sure, Lire ecrire.

 

Also, in Geraldine Rodgers' "History of Beginning Reading," she quotes an interesting French study about the global method vs. the phonetic, “Etude de Quarante Cas de Dyslexie d’Evolution,”

 

Madame Roudinesco, Trelat and Trelat state that despite the inadequacies of their statistics, they were able to determine that (schools) using methods of synthetic operation had 2 per cent dyslexics ‘while 20 per cent of the children had typical disturbance patterns in the new schools where only the total method was used.'

Edited May 13, 2011 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

Are you claiming that 30-40% of students in our schools--most of which take a balanced approach--are coming out unable to read? I would love to see some stats to back that up.

 

I have quite honestly NEVER met a person who went to a decent public school (i.e., not a really horrible inner city school) and/or who had parents even minimally interested in their education and who didn't have an LD of some sort who was actually unable to read, no matter how they were taught.

 

It's certainly possible, as well, that the reason the tutoring works is because it's one-on-one. One-on-one instruction of any sort is likely to be far more effective than classroom instruction of any sort.

 

Most are not unable to read, they are functionally illiterate. They can read some, but don't like to read and are reading below grade level. They know some phonics, but not well, not automated, and not enough to sound out most words they have not seen before. If you look at the literacy stats Pricilla linked, it is not encouraging. Also, they appear to be able to read if they are reading something simple, but cannot read difficult material.

 

I started tutoring one-on-one. But, my recent tutoring has been with large groups of inner city children. They have actually advanced more than my previous one-on-one tutoring of middle class children because I am now using nonsense words and Webster's Speller which enable much faster progress. My first few lessons with them requires a bit more of an adult to child ratio, but once they get used to me and figure out that they are learning, not as many volunteers are needed to help out.

 

I didn't realize the extent of functional illiteracy until I started handing out reading grade level tests in large numbers. I have been handing them out for 16 years and it is only getting worse. When I first started tutoring, some of the older teachers were teaching phonics well. Many of the newer teachers have not used good phonics materials like the Old Open Court books or the newer School Phonics books, and have not experienced what it is like to be able to teach most of your students to read anything without guessing.

[Embassy]

I know, right? I've always wanted to emigrate to Canada, because it seems like this magical, happy place. I envision it like what the US is supposed to be, but isn't. ;)

 

I did that a couple years ago and it sure is!:lol:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

We recently returned to the church I grew up in. It is in a well-to-do suburb with "good" schools. The high school has a very high graduation rate and most of the kids go on to college.

 

The jr. high and high school students can not read their Bibles. It isn't only that they can't understand what they read. They can't handle the names of people or places or words not part of today's vernacular. I assume that's because they never learned phonics.

 

The young people don't do the Scripture reading in the worship service anymore.

 

The young men don't prepare devotionals and short sermons anymore.

 

A major change has occurred in just one generation.

 

In my generation, the kids could read well and were good participants in Sunday School and in the worship service. Today, their children cannot read well enough to continue those traditions.

 

Edited to add the other half of my point: These are "good" kids with very loving and involved parents, and they go to a "good" school.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Dulcimeramy

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Come to Australia. We have our faults, but no one can claim we are North American. :tongue_smilie:

 

Rosie

 

You also have big and nasty bugs!!! I'll keep to snow.

 

Ooh, Due South! Love it! :D

 

I was a major fan, visited the studios, met some actors, got my name in the official Due South book that was published when the show wrapped.

 

A major change has occurred in just one generation.

 

 

While I agree with your statement, and others like it in this thread, it really doesn't apply to Quebec. We have a totally different education system, with a totally different approach.

 

I think I also have a good link for a website with some research showing the superiority of this method, but I don't know enough French to know for sure, Lire ecrire.

 

 

Again, the judge didn't say phonics were outdated, but that the specific book the parents used was.

The government is overseeing that all school books have "appropriate" stories. That means handicapped children must be seen, also children from families with two mothers, or two fathers, or at the very least divorced families. Themes must be appropriate for nowadays, including references to culture icons, McDonalds, etc... Do I agree with it? no that's one reason we homeschool. But do I agree with using a book that's most likely 100 years old, that shows women always wearing skirts, and completely obedient to their husbands, and incapable of taking a decision? I have the same 'no' there. And knowing the society I live in, I can totally see a judge, any judge, freak out over the stories and images of such a book, which is so far removed from our societal norm.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Cleo, I was answering twoforjoy, who is in the U.S. and was not discussing Quebec's educational system. Just sadly chipping in my two cents worth of anecdotal evidence that the U.S. is raising a generation of illiterate kids.

 

I'm so glad you are on this thread to help explain what is going on in Quebec! On the face of it, the whole thing is entirely extreme and partly unbelievable. This additional information about Quebecois society and schooling is necessary to even read the article linked in the OP.

[JeneralMom]

I bet you watched that TV show called Due South. Loved the show ;-)

 

But none of that applies to Quebec. We're weird, what can I say? I've been insulted because I'm a French Canadian who can speak English. I've sold my soul. (oh really???)

 

There are days where I want to leave this province, and then I realise there's nowhere else I could live. As much as I don't fit in here, (and I'm a direct descendant of the first colonists!!!) I don't fit in the rest of Canada either, and I don't think I could live in the States. So I'm stuck. Between a ROC and a hard place.

 

 

It's funny, eventhough I am an English Quebecer, I always have to self-identify to other Canadians as "Hi, I'm Canadian, but I'm from Quebec", because I am "different" than other Canadians, and to other Quebecers I have to specify - "yes, but I'm from Montreal" and to other Montrealers I have to specifiy "yes, but I'm English-speaking". Ah, crazy, crazy Quebec, I miss it.

[Impish]

I made Wolf promise me we wouldn't even live near the Quebec border.

 

My mother's first dh is French Canadian. His mother, despite being American until her marriage, was rabidly Francophone. (Don't ask me how that happened). I went to visit, and she refused to speak English to me...she could, but she refused. The onus was on me to speak to her 'properly'. She also threw a fit b/c the guy I was engaged to wasn't Francophone. I grew up in ON, what are the chances, right?!

 

Anyways, she told me she'd never accept me or my children unless I started speaking French, exclusively.

 

Suddenly, I flashed back to the discussion I'd been told of btwn her and my mother, before I was born. She tried the same with my mom, saying that the baby was French, my mother better speak French to it.

 

My mother, not one to be meek and mild, coolly informed her that since the baby was HALF French, Madame could speak French to that half...which was from the waist down. :lol:

 

I figure I've got enough stress in my life without dealing with being ostracized based on language.

[ElizabethB]

I'm so glad you are on this thread to help explain what is going on in Quebec! On the face of it, the whole thing is entirely extreme and partly unbelievable. This additional information about Quebecois society and schooling is necessary to even read the article linked in the OP.

 

:iagree:

 

I did not realize all the background information, it makes the whole thing clearer, thanks Cleo.

[WishboneDawn]

It's funny, eventhough I am an English Quebecer, I always have to self-identify to other Canadians as "Hi, I'm Canadian, but I'm from Quebec", because I am "different" than other Canadians, and to other Quebecers I have to specify - "yes, but I'm from Montreal" and to other Montrealers I have to specifiy "yes, but I'm English-speaking". Ah, crazy, crazy Quebec, I miss it.

 

The crazyness affects the whole relationship with the rest of Canada too. It's a no-brainer to me that if Quebec were in the US, René Lévesque would be looked on as another Benedict Arnold. In Canada? I think respect and affection would describe the views of a lot of Canucks, me included. :)

 

It's the black sheep of the family with family being the operative word.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

My mother's first dh is French Canadian. His mother, despite being American until her marriage, was rabidly Francophone. (Don't ask me how that happened).

 

 

My grandmother was American, and didn't know a word of English. Historically speaking, a group of French Canadians were left on the wrong side of the border, when the Maine border got drawn. They kept their culture till the beginning of the XX century at the very least!

 

I also totally get your DH's mother. I worry constantly that my kids will lose their French identity. We happen to live in the English part of Quebec, so most of their friends are English speakers. The homeschooling group is almost all English and homeschooling materials is almost all American. (dreaded spelling!!!) English is forbidden in our house! We have never spoken English to our kids, or to each other, even though all four individuals are fluent. And to be honest, it would break my heart if the kids end up choosing spouses that are primarily English. :001_huh: This is also one of the reasons we don't want to move out, cause it would be impossible for them to find a French speaking spouse elsewhere.

[Teachin'Mine]

Cleo, so you are legally able to homeschool and you're in Quebec? Why is it not so for others. Now I'm even more confused. :001_huh:

[WishboneDawn]

This is also one of the reasons we don't want to move out, cause it would be impossible for them to find a French speaking spouse elsewhere.

 

There's always New Brunswick and the Acadians! :D