Is there a Catholic friendly equivalent to SOTW?

[MLgriffin]

I like the SOTW but would like to find a version that is a bit less anti-Catholic.

[Spy Car]

It's a good week for baking sugar cookies :D

 

Bill

[MLgriffin]

Sorry? Is that a response to my question?

[Spy Car]

Sorry? Is that a response to my question?

 

The hostess of this forum has had a pretty rough week. You might want to consider giving her a break.

 

Bill

[m0mmaBuck]

What parts do you see as anti-Catholic?

[SonshineLearner]

I hope it's good!! I specifically wrote a SOF so that my Catholic and catholic friends could join my co-op :) We have SOTW 1-4 listed as our source.... We're gonna start by reading the Story of Creation from the Bible and then jog right into SOTW I. I have to say, my son specifically asks "MOM!!! can we listen to SOTW??!!" so... I know he likes it... :)

[Crimson Wife]

SWB tends to be more even-handed than most Protestants, but there are several chapters in SOTW 2 that are problematic for Catholics. Chapters 18 (on the Crusades), Chapter 34 (Martin Luther), Chapter 36 (Reformation), Chapter 37 (Gallileo and Copernicus), and Chapter 38 (Queen Elizabeth I) were the ones we either heavily supplemented or outright skipped in favor of Catholic books.

[MLgriffin]

I am new to this site so I assumed when I posted I would get responses to my questions. So, suggestions about sugar cookies seemed a bit odd. Maybe it takes time to get use to the forum?

 

Anyway, as I am regularly told by my Catholic friends how I am not a very good Catholic I will tell you which parts I am not "thrilled" about. Remember - I said I do like the series and think it has a lot more good thanbad parts.

 

Mainly in the 2nd book dealing with Martin Luther and the reformation (or as the Church likes to call it, the Protestant revolt ;) There are comments and inferances throughout book 2 & 3 that are seemingly "unfriendly" towards Catholics. I understand that due to the authors religious background some of those feelings slipped through to the pages.

 

Before anyone gets offended, I understand I can skip those parts or"work around them" but I was just wondering if anyone has heard of a history series as good as the SOTW just not so unfriendly toward the Catholic faith. The ones I have seen suggested on the various Catholic sites are not as complete as this series and the books recc by my cousin who is a history prof at the local univ are too much for my 5 & 8 yr olds. It doesn't have to be "Pro Catholic", just not that negative against them.

[Zuzu822]

How about http://www.rchistory.com?

[Spy Car]

I am new to this site so I assumed when I posted I would get responses to my questions. So, suggestions about sugar cookies seemed a bit odd. Maybe it takes time to get use to the forum?

 

Anyway, as I am regularly told by my Catholic friends how I am not a very good Catholic I will tell you which parts I am not "thrilled" about. Remember - I said I do like the series and think it has a lot more good thanbad parts.

 

Mainly in the 2nd book dealing with Martin Luther and the reformation (or as the Church likes to call it, the Protestant revolt ;) There are comments and inferances throughout book 2 & 3 that are seemingly "unfriendly" towards Catholics. I understand that due to the authors religious background some of those feelings slipped through to the pages.

 

Before anyone gets offended, I understand I can skip those parts or"work around them" but I was just wondering if anyone has heard of a history series as good as the SOTW just not so unfriendly toward the Catholic faith. The ones I have seen suggested on the various Catholic sites are not as complete as this series and the books recc by my cousin who is a history prof at the local univ are too much for my 5 & 8 yr olds. It doesn't have to be "Pro Catholic", just not that negative against them.

 

You are aware that the author of SOTW is also the hostess of this forum, right?

 

So when you describe her book as "anti-Catholic" in your first post on here on the forum it might make people gulp. Plus, this has been a seriously weird week with SWB being accused of being unChristian by a leading (Protestant) Creationist.

 

Susan is very gracious about allowing critical discussions of her work. The timing for this is just not particularly auspicious. I hope you understand.

 

Bill

[MLgriffin]

Thanks - I will check that out :)

[RootAnn]

The short answer is: "No, there aren't any."

 

I have several friends who have tried RC History & it isn't as well-put-together, easy-to-use-for-teacher/Mom. Plus, it isn't "done yet."

 

You might try the Catholic Textbook Project for when the kids get older. It is very textbook-y, obviously.

 

We work around/supplement/omit the "problematic" chapters in Vol 2 & 3.

 

If you hear of something, let the rest of us know. I haven't & I've seen lots of discussions about this.

[zookeeperof3]

The short answer is: "No, there aren't any."

 

I have several friends who have tried RC History & it isn't as well-put-together, easy-to-use-for-teacher/Mom. Plus, it isn't "done yet."

 

You might try the Catholic Textbook Project for when the kids get older. It is very textbook-y, obviously.

 

We work around/supplement/omit the "problematic" chapters in Vol 2 & 3.

 

If you hear of something, let the rest of us know. I haven't & I've seen lots of discussions about this.

:iagree:

The Catholic Textbook Project is supposed to be coming out with grade 1-4 books in the fall of 12.You could try e-mailing them to see if that's still accurate.

 

I found RC History to be difficult to schedule. I do think it's a really good program, it's just not open and go.

 

I'm often accused of not being Catholic enough...I can't make everyone happy. I can only do the best that I can for my kids with what's available to me.

[VA6336]

Nope, haven't heard/seen anything as well-laid out, thorough and easy-to-use as SOTW that is more "Catholic-friendly" than SOTW is. Believe me, I've looked! As it happens, I'm planning it so that by the time we get to the Middle Ages my kids will be much older and it'll be easier to deal with the subject matter. If we're still using SOTW, we'll probably edit out portions in favor of other sources.

[MLgriffin]

No I am not aware she was called unchristian (which I have a hard time seeing how if they have read her books, but these days nothing should surprise me).

 

Yes I figured this is a forum approved by her as it is a "well trained mind" forum and she "is"the well trained mind.

 

It is not an insult to say the books come across as "anti-Catholic". It is just a statement of a fact on how some Catholics feel about the material. No one disputes the quality of the books. I understand that any author will sometimes express their opinion in any various work they do. As a not very good Catholic who has been to a number of "protestant" churches I also understand how many of them view the Catholics. I am simply asking (on a site that is well known for it's higher academic standards) if anyone happens to know of a more "Catholic friendly" version of this very good history series. (If you have ever looked through Catholic curriculum you would understand it can be a bit "light" on any non religious courses) If the answer is no than I will stick with SOTW and just adjust the parts that are questionable.

 

Again, no insult was ment. I don't offend easy so I guess I never thought this would be taken so hard. If my question was offensive it was not intended.

[Mommyfaithe]

No I am not aware she was called unchristian (which I have a hard time seeing how if they have read her books, but these days nothing should surprise me).

 

Yes I figured this is a forum approved by her as it is a "well trained mind" forum and she "is"the well trained mind.

 

It is not an insult to say the books come across as "anti-Catholic". It is just a statement of a fact on how some Catholics feel about the material. No one disputes the quality of the books. I understand that any author will sometimes express their opinion in any various work they do. As a not very good Catholic who has been to a number of "protestant" churches I also understand how many of them view the Catholics. I am simply asking (on a site that is well known for it's higher academic standards) if anyone happens to know of a more "Catholic friendly" version of this very good history series. (If you have ever looked through Catholic curriculum you would understand it can be a bit "light" on any non religious courses) If the answer is no than I will stick with SOTW and just adjust the parts that are questionable.

 

Again, no insult was ment. I don't offend easy so I guess I never thought this would be taken so hard. If my question was offensive it was not intended.

 

My best advise is : Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater...if certain chapters bug you...just skip them. There is WELL more than a years worth of history in each book...so feel free to just skip the chapters you hate, and maybe just replace them with some other small book you do like...OR..just skip and move on.

 

HTH

Faithe

[m0mmaBuck]

SWB tends to be more even-handed than most Protestants, but there are several chapters in SOTW 2 that are problematic for Catholics. Chapters 18 (on the Crusades), Chapter 34 (Martin Luther), Chapter 36 (Reformation), Chapter 37 (Gallileo and Copernicus), and Chapter 38 (Queen Elizabeth I) were the ones we either heavily supplemented or outright skipped in favor of Catholic books.

 

Oh, OK. I'm Catholic. The chapter on the Crusades didn't really phase me and we haven't reached the others yet.... We just finished Ch. 29 (West African Kingdoms) this week.

 

Honestly you could also say SOTW was anti-Muslim (with all the "convert or die" warfare) but I think really all religions have had their less-than-stellar moments in history.

 

We love SOTW and I certainly wouldn't avoid it altogether when, like all other things in HS'ing, it can be tweaked to fit your needs.

[MLgriffin]

Thanks :)

[skissugar]

This question has been brought up before and will in the future.. I see no harm in what you are asking. maybe wording it differently might have made other posters more comfortable.. but really dont sweat it....

 

What we have done with SOTW is as we got to the questionable chapters that didnt fit our religous views.. we simply went through them and added in "okay this is their view on this.. and this is our view" so the kids got both sides. even at a young age this brought up many great discussions about why we do things the way we do and was able to delve into church history a bit more. at one time someone did a list of catholic add ons to sotw.. I dont remember who but if you do a search maybe it will pop up and you could ask them to email it to you.. I had it via email but lost it in the last computer crash.

[PIE!]

Hmm – I’ve never really thought about this before. I’m not Catholic or Protestant, so the only history I’ve learned about Martin Luther, the Crusades, Galileo, etc. was what I was taught in public high school. At the time I assumed it was unbiased and hadn’t really given it a second thought. Now I realize that it was really only one-sided. It never occurred to me that the Catholics would have a different point of view.

 

So my question is to you Catholics who use other materials for those chapters, what materials do you use? I won’t skip those chapters when we get there with my kids, but I’d like to also show them the other side of the story. I’ve got no idea what resources are available for that.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Hmm – I’ve never really thought about this before. I’m not Catholic or Protestant, so the only history I’ve learned about Martin Luther, the Crusades, Galileo, etc. was what I was taught in public high school. At the time I assumed it was unbiased and hadn’t really given it a second thought. Now I realize that it was really only one-sided. It never occurred to me that the Catholics would have a different point of view.

 

So my question is to you Catholics who use other materials for those chapters, what materials do you use? I won’t skip those chapters when we get there with my kids, but I’d like to also show them the other side of the story. I’ve got no idea what resources are available for that.

 

I would also like other point of view references to use.

[AudreyTN]

:lurk5:

[Spy Car]

It is not an insult to say the books come across as "anti-Catholic".

 

Really? I can't think that any person of good-will wouldn't feel insulted to see his or her work called anti-Catholic, or anti-Christian, anti-Muslim, or anti-Semetic. It's a pretty serious charge, and one that tends to offend people.

 

As a not very good Catholic who has been to a number of "protestant" churches I also understand how many of them view the Catholics.

 

I will not deny that anti-Catholicism exists in this country, but really this is "guilty by association" and not really fair.

 

 

I am simply asking (on a site that is well known for it's higher academic standards) if anyone happens to know of a more "Catholic friendly" version of this very good history series.

 

"Catholic friendy" sounds a lot better than "less anti-Catholic" if you know what I mean ;)

 

(If you have ever looked through Catholic curriculum you would understand it can be a bit "light" on any non religious courses) If the answer is no than I will stick with SOTW and just adjust the parts that are questionable.

 

The quality of "Catholic" curriculum is a source of frequent complaint among our RC members. There are quite a few who I'm sure will be willing to help you as you look for educational materials in the future.

 

Again, no insult was ment. I don't offend easy so I guess I never thought this would be taken so hard. If my question was offensive it was not intended.

 

As I said, this has been a week where nerves have been rubbed raw, and to compound the stress SWB has an ailing family member. In the future you might just want to consider the word choices. I don't think anyone enjoys being called a bigot, and calling a persons work "anti-Catholic" comes pretty close to crossing that line. KWIM?

 

There are bigots in this world (plenty), but I'm convinced Susan Wise Bauer is not one of them.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Bill

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I came from a RC background. I have not read those parts of the STOW but IMHO in regards to those the parts of history dealing with the crusades, Martin Luther, etc., the church did not behave perfectly and I think the church acknowledges this. I am not bashing the RC church for the record but IMHO I don't think history should be whitewashed either so I am not sure what one means by anti-catholic in this case. Now of course, if a book was berating the RC church in general that is different and I know several texts have done so:(.

 

I wanted to add that Protestant history should not be whitewashed as well.

 

And for the record, I am quasi Christian, buddhist, unitarian universalist, etc. so I don't have a bone to pick.

[Michele B]

Welcome to the forum! I hope you feel encouraged by this community.

 

Many catholics share your reservations about certain chapters. I think SOTW is GREAT as long as you pre-read and supplement. We are doing SOTW2 for the second time. I know what to expect. I think it has been good for me to research information to present my children with the catholic version of those few chapters. Homeschooling is supposed to be an education for the teacher too! ;) I would encourage you to give SOTW another chance.

 

Michele

[Crimson Wife]

I came from a RC background. I have not read those parts of the STOW but IMHO in regards to those the parts of history dealing with the crusades, Martin Luther, etc., the church did not behave perfectly and I think the church acknowledges this.

 

I don't know a single Catholic who believes that everyone in the Church hierarchy has always behaved perfectly. Catholic materials I've seen don't "whitewash" over those issues. The question is how they are presented. SWB is more even-handed than most Protestants, but SOTW 2 definitely is written from a Protestant perspective. If I were writing the book, even if I tried to be even-handed, it would still come out with a Catholic perspective.

 

The solution I came up with for my family was simply delaying a discussion of the Reformation until the next time through the cycle, when we will be using the Catholic Schools Textbook Project book Light to the Nations.

[PrincessAriel]

No disrespect to SWB as I think she has done a tremendous work with her SOTW series. I am also especially grateful for the audio CD version for my auditory learner. I intend to use SOTW for my dc but will read it in advance and be sure to provide the Catholic viewpoint for my dc. I found this as a possible source for the Catholic perspective as we go through SOTW 2 next year.

 

http://vmalott.typepad.com/blog/2007/09/medieval-histor.html

[kitten18]

The short answer is: "No, there aren't any."

 

:iagree:

 

We're Catholic. We love SOTW, we will be using SOTW2 next year and I probably won't do any editing/skipping.

[Bird Girl]

My view of the SOTW series is that Susan writes each chapter that contains religious material from the perspective of the believers who lived those events. Thus, to many Protestants, Martin Luther is an important thinker who was inspired by God. But she writes no less sympathetically about the Muslims who survived the crusades, or the Japanese who believed their emperor to have been descended from the Sun God. Part of writing history is choosing a perspective and incorporating that into the telling. I think Susan's choice has been to choose a perspective based on the people of the time period. I doubt she's seriously influenced by the modern day believers in pagan beliefs or myths, but she treats those religious traditions no less respectfully.

 

I'm Roman Catholic, by the way, in case that influences your view of my post.

[Jeanne in MN]

I'm not aware of any curriculum like you are asking but, we are using a book called The Story of The Church. http://www.amazon.com/Story-Church-George-Johnson/dp/089555156X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301117047&sr=8-1It's easy to read and tells the story of the Catholic Church through history. I found a schedule somewhere matching chapters of it with those of SOTW.

 

We used SOTW for all four years, and we are using them again our second time through. I really wanted Bible history this time, though, and added Mystery of History as well. I am loving the curriculum, but there have been times where the beliefs taught are very much Protestant and it's good to be aware of Protestant beliefs as well!

 

For example, when MoH taught about the 400 years of silence, and taught it as fact, I had to research what the heck that was about as I'd never heard of it before! It was a great opportunity to teach the kids about how the Protestants and Catholics have different books in their Bibles and why.

[Zuzu822]

I also meant to mention Laura Berquist's book, Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum. It is Catholic, and there is a corresponding school: Mother of Divine Grace. Perhaps taking a look at the book and/or syllabi booklists will help too. :)

[mbw0817]

No disrespect to SWB as I think she has done a tremendous work with her SOTW series. I am also especially grateful for the audio CD version for my auditory learner. I intend to use SOTW for my dc but will read it in advance and be sure to provide the Catholic viewpoint for my dc. I found this as a possible source for the Catholic perspective as we go through SOTW 2 next year.

 

http://vmalott.typepad.com/blog/2007/09/medieval-histor.html

 

I was going to post another link from this same blog, correlating SOTW 2 chapters with chapters in Catholic books: http://vmalott.typepad.com/blog/2008/05/catholic-resour.html

[RahRah]

I am new to this site so I assumed when I posted I would get responses to my questions. So, suggestions about sugar cookies seemed a bit odd. Maybe it takes time to get use to the forum?

 

Anyway, as I am regularly told by my Catholic friends how I am not a very good Catholic I will tell you which parts I am not "thrilled" about. Remember - I said I do like the series and think it has a lot more good thanbad parts.

 

Mainly in the 2nd book dealing with Martin Luther and the reformation (or as the Church likes to call it, the Protestant revolt ;) There are comments and inferances throughout book 2 & 3 that are seemingly "unfriendly" towards Catholics. I understand that due to the authors religious background some of those feelings slipped through to the pages.

 

Before anyone gets offended, I understand I can skip those parts or"work around them" but I was just wondering if anyone has heard of a history series as good as the SOTW just not so unfriendly toward the Catholic faith. The ones I have seen suggested on the various Catholic sites are not as complete as this series and the books recc by my cousin who is a history prof at the local univ are too much for my 5 & 8 yr olds. It doesn't have to be "Pro Catholic", just not that negative against them.

 

I'll start by saying I am Roman Catholic. Personally, I really don't care what others think of my being a good Catholic or not - that's between me and God as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'll also say we use SOTW and I honestly don't see the problem - in the example you gave, Luther did have a problem with the Church (not Catholics per se) and to gloss over that, and what the Church was doing at the time, well....I see that is intellectually dishonest. That's me though.

 

To me, it's important to remember that my children will be exposed to varying points of view throughout their lives - part of my job is to teach them critical thinking skills....and if they're not exposed to differing POV, how will they develop that?

 

That said, if you want your child to have another perspective, one that is Catholic-centric, you can always supplement and add in to provide differing views on that issue, or any other you'll find in SOTW.

[RootAnn]

I chose a chapter of a Catholic Church History book to read instead of the chapter on Martin Luther in SOTW 2. I searched about ten different books before I found what I was looking for. It presented a picture of ML that incorporated the "whole person" - what his early life & beliefs where, what he found was wrong about the RC Church & what led up to his protestations, what happened after that he agreed with, what things he didn't believe in that his actions directly or indirectly led to, and how he believed when he died. It also had some "whole picture" views on Henry VIII and his friend Thomas More.

 

I wasn't able to find anything "even handed" about the Thirty Years War in either Catholic or Protestant publications. Sections from Wikipedia & links found therein became my friend. I had a weird feeling that I was reading about completely separate events because the accounts were so different. I personally didn't think either the views of SWB or the Catholic books I searched took into account the massive amount of complications of religious/political intertwining that led up to & through the Thirty Years War.

 

I will say that preparing to teach SOTW2 & SOTW3 helped me to solidify my understanding of several parts of history that I only had a fuzzy understanding of prior to my research. Other parts of history only became more unclear as my unanswerable questions mounted.

 

It is hard to see some parts of history when you have a "black and white" view of most young children. Some "good people" made what I would consider to be wrong decisions. I'm going to run into the same issues when we get to the Civil War. ...

[dsmama]

I'm Protestant and skipped SOTW2 chapters on Martin Luther and Council of Trent, along with a few others, mostly due to my kids' age, but also because they are still forming their thoughts about church and faith.

 

Do what is right for your family.

[justamouse]

SWB tends to be more even-handed than most Protestants, but there are several chapters in SOTW 2 that are problematic for Catholics. Chapters 18 (on the Crusades), Chapter 34 (Martin Luther), Chapter 36 (Reformation), Chapter 37 (Gallileo and Copernicus), and Chapter 38 (Queen Elizabeth I) were the ones we either heavily supplemented or outright skipped in favor of Catholic books.

 

Adding to that, the chapter on Theodora and Justinian in SOTW 2. Theodora was a Monophysite. I just kind of didn't get into the 'good Christian Rulers' aspect of the couple.

 

We will continue to use the series because they're just so good, I'm just going to work around what I don't agree with.

Edited March 26, 2011 by justamouse

[Crimson Wife]

Adding to that, the chapter on Theodora and Justinian in SOTW 2. Theodora was a Monophysite. I just kind of didn't get into the 'good Christian Rulers' aspect of the couple. But we still used it.

 

Interesting, I did not know that. I'll have to keep that in mind the next time we use SOTW 2.

[stripe]

You might also look at the recommendations in Mater Amabilis, as this is a Catholic program and the ladies who run it seem very thoughtful.

[ElizaG]

I'll also say we use SOTW and I honestly don't see the problem - in the example you gave, Luther did have a problem with the Church (not Catholics per se) and to gloss over that, and what the Church was doing at the time, well....I see that is intellectually dishonest. That's me though.

Of course that would be intellectually dishonest. We have many Catholic history books on our shelves, both old and new, and none of them gloss over those events.

 

In general, our family's concerns about non-Catholic depictions of the Reformation fall into one of the following categories:

 

1) Factual errors about the Church's teaching. For instance, many books say that indulgences were for the forgiveness of sins, which is incorrect. SOTW2 gets this right, unlike many other books -- including E. F. Gombrich's A Little History of the World, which we bought from a Catholic homeschool supplier. :001_huh: When mistakes like these are made in good faith (as I believe to be the case with Gombrich), it's regrettable in that it perpetuates misconceptions about Church history, but I don't think it's grounds for rejecting a book that's otherwise well-written. One can always just sticker over the erroneous bits.

 

2) Overemphasis on bad things in Church history without talking about the good. For instance, non-Catholic books will tend to emphasize that there was a lot of corruption at the time, but they'll make much less reference (if any) to the many devout priests and monks, saints and scholars, charitable activities, etc. In the milder cases, this can be more or less remedied by supplementing with good Catholic literature. In the more extreme cases, we'd just avoid that book altogether.

 

3) Omission or downplaying of bad things from Protestant history. I think the section on Queen Elizabeth I in SOTW2 is a case in point. Sorry, but our family will be unable to attend the "Good Queen Bess" love-fest.

 

4) Describing disputed theological issues in a way that presents both sides, but gives subtle preference to the Protestant viewpoint. I think this happens at times in SOTW2, but I'm not going to hold it against the author. It's hard to overcome one's background and write in a way that's truly neutral, especially if you're trying to tell an interesting story.

 

I hope that helps to clarify the concerns that we have. We'll probably end up using parts of SOTW2 (for the sake of continuity, and because we already have a copy), but it's not a book that I'd choose to leave out for free reading.

[ElizaG]

You might also look at the recommendations in Mater Amabilis, as this is a Catholic program and the ladies who run it seem very thoughtful.

Another one to look at is the Educational Plan of St. Jerome Classical School. It was designed by a group of experienced Catholic homeschool parents and scholars, and is currently being used in a parochial school. Their entire 100-page curriculum for K-8 is available to the public. It's a very helpful resource. :)

 

They use SOTW1 and 3 (among many other books), but not SOTW2. You can see their book list for the Middle Ages on pages 69 and 70.

[Skadi]

I agree with everything Eleanor has written in this thread, and I'm an atheist! I just wanted to remind everyone that you don't have to be Catholic to see the subtle bias, and although our family isn't religious, it's important for us to try to find the most objective medium we can for teaching history. I know SWB shares this goal, which is why I think threads like this are so important -- she might decide to revise the books for future editions after reading honest feedback here on the forums. There's a big difference between reactionary hecklers who shout, "She's not a Christian!!!1" and people who share thoughtful, constructive criticism of the books. Also? I think SWB can take care of herself without needing a forum member to protect her wittle feelings, tyvm. She's better than that.

 

As to the original question, I think you can keep SOTW (even Volume 2) and just skip the chapters that have already been mentioned, replacing them with supplemental reading.

[RahRah]

Of course that would be intellectually dishonest. We have many Catholic history books on our shelves, both old and new, and none of them gloss over those events.

 

In general, our family's concerns about non-Catholic depictions of the Reformation fall into one of the following categories:

 

1) Factual errors about the Church's teaching. For instance, many books say that indulgences were for the forgiveness of sins, which is incorrect. SOTW2 gets this right, unlike many other books -- including E. F. Gombrich's A Little History of the World, which we bought from a Catholic homeschool supplier. :001_huh: When mistakes like these are made in good faith (as I believe to be the case with Gombrich), it's regrettable in that it perpetuates misconceptions about Church history, but I don't think it's grounds for rejecting a book that's otherwise well-written. One can always just sticker over the erroneous bits.

 

2) Overemphasis on bad things in Church history without talking about the good. For instance, non-Catholic books will tend to emphasize that there was a lot of corruption at the time, but they'll make much less reference (if any) to the many devout priests and monks, saints and scholars, charitable activities, etc. In the milder cases, this can be more or less remedied by supplementing with good Catholic literature. In the more extreme cases, we'd just avoid that book altogether.

 

3) Omission or downplaying of bad things from Protestant history. I think the section on Queen Elizabeth I in SOTW2 is a case in point. Sorry, but our family will be unable to attend the "Good Queen Bess" love-fest.

 

4) Describing disputed theological issues in a way that presents both sides, but gives subtle preference to the Protestant viewpoint. I think this happens at times in SOTW2, but I'm not going to hold it against the author. It's hard to overcome one's background and write in a way that's truly neutral, especially if you're trying to tell an interesting story.

 

I hope that helps to clarify the concerns that we have. We'll probably end up using parts of SOTW2 (for the sake of continuity, and because we already have a copy), but it's not a book that I'd choose to leave out for free reading.

 

:iagree:

 

My reply was a bit blunt - likely due to the OP's feeling that SOTW is "anti-Catholic" which I don't think it is. SWB has a bias, all authors do, but I don't think she's anti Catholic, Muslim or much else - she did a good job and I think the bias, when it shows through here and there, provides great opportunity for discussion!

[stripe]

Another one to look at is the Educational Plan of St. Jerome Classical School. It was designed by a group of experienced Catholic homeschool parents and scholars, and is currently being used in a parochial school. Their entire 100-page curriculum for K-8 is available to the public. It's a very helpful resource. :)

Hey, thanks for this. I hadn't ever heard of it before. I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic educational tradition in this country, and it's nice to see a well-thought out plan for k-8 education, religion aside.

[ElizaG]

and although our family isn't religious, it's important for us to try to find the most objective medium we can for teaching history. I know SWB shares this goal (...)

I agree, it's clear that she does. That's another reason we're sticking with it. It's important to us that our children have a common base of knowledge with others who don't share our beliefs. There are many families of very different backgrounds using SOTW, and I'm sure it's going it's going to give our children at least a little help in communicating with each other in the long run. (Although, at the moment, that communication is taking the form of my 5 year old yelling "Shamshi-Adad, Shamshi-Adad" while chasing his younger sister around the upstairs. :D)

 

We're very grateful for SWB's efforts. It's a lot easier to point out flaws than to take on and complete a project of this magnitude.

[ChandlerMom]

Interesting discussion. :D

 

Understanding history is a gradual thing, as you uncover layers of subtleties. I don't think it is reasonable to expect ANY single source to accomplish this. IMO SOTW does a good job, but I think you need to be asking your kids, "why do you think that group felt that way? Why did the other group feel differently?"

 

As to Luther, IMO you cannot understand his actions without understanding why he succeeded to affect change while many before him didn't. That had more to do with the politics than religion. The whole nailing of the 95 thesis to the church door sounds soo dramatic, but it wasn't for the time...and on and on.

 

No matter what your faith, these are events that had significant impact, and probably deserve some time utilizing several good sources, including secular ones.

 

When SOTW appears to show some protestant bias, I just discuss that this is one interpretation but history has many, and we bring in other resources for discussion. So to the OP, I guess I am saying you may have to accept that there is no single history text that will agree 100% with your personal beliefs (and maybe that's a good thing since it encourages discussion). BUT it doesn't hurt to ask. ;)

Edited March 27, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[Guest DarlaG]

I agree with everything Eleanor has written in this thread, and I'm an atheist! I just wanted to remind everyone that you don't have to be Catholic to see the subtle bias, and although our family isn't religious, it's important for us to try to find the most objective medium we can for teaching history. I know SWB shares this goal, which is why I think threads like this are so important -- she might decide to revise the books for future editions after reading honest feedback here on the forums. There's a big difference between reactionary hecklers who shout, "She's not a Christian!!!1" and people who share thoughtful, constructive criticism of the books. Also? I think SWB can take care of herself without needing a forum member to protect her wittle feelings, tyvm. She's better than that.

.

 

Thank you for this. I am new to these boards, and typically try to avoid boards all together. Some of the most frustrating and aggravating experiences I have encountered on message boards has occurred when moderators try to protect writers or other adults well able to do so themselves. It just never comes off right. People all have opinions and biases based on their own views and experiences, you can't just discount that.

 

SOTW has been a great addition to my first year of HS'g & I'm looking forward to using it more- altering or adding as fits my view of things or the view I'd prefer be presented to my child. But you have to do that to some extent with most curricula. (Also looking forward to doing the same with TGS).

[Jeanne in MN]

Adding to that, the chapter on Theodora and Justinian in SOTW 2. Theodora was a Monophysite. I just kind of didn't get into the 'good Christian Rulers' aspect of the couple.

 

We will continue to use the series because they're just so good, I'm just going to work around what I don't agree with.

 

Ah! We are just coming to that chapter this coming week! Thanks for the heads up!

[MusicMama]

Thanks for all the interesting discussion. My husband's extended family is Catholic, and I appreciate the chance to learn more about their beliefs and viewpoints. Good luck in your search!

[Lovedtodeath]

Did you see this?

 

http://www.sonlight.com/history-geography-churchhist.html

Though (or perhaps because) they are published by a liberal Catholic publishing house, these volumes present one of the most balanced pictures of Western (Roman/Protestant) church history you will find.

 

I can't add any more tags. Will someone add church history please?

Edited March 27, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254581

This issue came up just last week on another thread:

Here are a few posts I wrote on that thread.

SOTW 1 is perfectly fine from a Catholic perspective. I'm trying to remember all the issues I had with 2. When the leader of the Franks had his army baptized she writes, "they probably weren't all Christians" which is an issue with the meaning of baptism as a sacrament. It overlooks the importance of religious orders preserving literacy. I'm going to read How the Irish Saved Civilization for more info on that. I doesn't refer to all Christians as Catholics before the great schism. The whole book is set up to pave the way for Martin Luther. Really, these are not surprising, since SWB is Protestant. It was a nice refresher for me, and I will use it as a realoud. I may even get the cd's and just omit the tracks I don't want them to hear. I just want to make sure that the Protestant spirit of the book is not passed on. It reminds me of learning World Civ. in 7th grade in public school. The public school books were all of a Protestant slant. .

I just wanted to add that I am NOT a Catholic that wants to whitewash our church history. There are sinners in every church. As a Catholic I find it important to teach those parts of church history from a particularly Catholic perspective, so the faith is not thrown out with the sin. I hope that makes sense!!!!!

 

 

 

I mesh Connecting With History (rc connect) and SOTW this year. I'm not sure exactly how it will work next year.