maddykate Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 We hired my dh's brother to be the contractor/overseer on a house project on our farm, while we are here in Asia. The agreement he and my dh made was that he would work on the house and complete a lot of the project himself, which would save us money. He would be the one to hire the subcontractors, pay them (using our account - we gave him Power of Attourney), oversee the job, and be there to look out after our interests. He did the first part of the job, but then his son became very ill and he had to focus completely on him understandably so, and we have absolutely no ill feelings about him bowing out of the job. When my nephew got sick, my dh told bil to just focus on his son and forget about the house, but no money or committments were discussed at that time. We just continued on with the project and we hired another contractor who has now completed the job. Now, however, my bil is wanting to be paid the full amount originally agreed upon. My dh itemized the list of what my bil followed through with and it amounted to barely one-third of the agreed upon terms. This is a very sticky situation - the house we are building is less than a mile from bil. We will have to pass by his house every single time we leave our home. Due to my bil not being able to fulfill his part of the bargain and us having to hire another contractor, we are WAY, WAY over budget for this house. Should we stick to the original agreement and pay him the full amount, even though he did not provide the services that he said he would? Or, should we pay him the amount that he earned? The difference between the amount of money he wants and what we think he earned is $2,000. We are over-budget around $20,000. Dh and I are interested to know what you think. TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Keeping in mind that I know nothing about building a house, or contractors, I would think he should be paid only for the work he completed. He broke the verbal contract by not completing the project, therefore he is not entitled to the agreed upon terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Pay him what he earned. I don't know how to smooth over the family dispute though. I can't understand why someone would want more than they earned. I do understand that he might have big money pressures due to his son's medical bills, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This is why Dave Ramsey suggest never doing business with family...yikes. Look at it this way...if you pay 10% more, is it worth it to keep Thanksgiving dinner (or the drive home everyday) from being super awkward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Is there a way to come to a compromise? Can you all sit down and show him that this project became a money pit and would he be okay to take $1000 instead of the full $2000? If this was anyone else I would only pay what was earned but with family it quickly becomes a sticky wicket and if you live this close it may be well worth preserving the relationship rather than insisting on what is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Girl Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Did you ask him about the discrepancy between what he thought he could finish and what he wound up being able to finish? Does he know about the other contractor. (How could he not know?) I would ask him what he thought was fair, considering that he needed to take time off to help his son. Does he think he actually earned all the pay (unlikely) or does he need the money to pay off bills? Perhaps you could loan/gift him the additional money, making it clear that it is not payment due, but rather help for his situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If it was his idea for you to hire another contractor....pay him what he earned. If you stepped in, removed him from the job, and hired another contractor....pay him the entire job. It sucks. It is a bad situation. But, if you are close, then the $2000 isn't worth losing the relationship. I understand that you needed to move forward, probably didn't know how long he was going to be away from the project, and that you were trying to make things easier on your BIL, but unless you are going to consider him "fired" from the job, he should have been the one to step out of the job (even if he needed a nudge to do so). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 the $2000 isn't worth losing the relationship. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddykate Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 To follow up on some of the questions: When my dh called bil to discuss the numbers and what would be fair payment, we fully expected bil to be able to discuss rationally the obvious situation that he didn't follow through with the job. But, as soon as my dh even made a slight hestitation over the amount, my bil went balistic! He didn't even ask what we were thinking about paying him. When my dh wanted to discuss the job and go over the numbers of each component of the project, bil accused dh of ripping him off and taking advantage of him. Bil said some extremely hurtful things to dh. We were on Skype, so this conversation was being broadcast over my computer, so I could hear every thing that was being said on both sides. I just sat there the entire time thinking, "Oh, my word! I can't believe he just said that!". Then, the next thing he said would be equally bad. At one point, I wanted my dh to point out that some obvious, but hurtful things about what bil has done, but my dh wouldn't. He said out loud to me (though, obviously bil heard him) "I am not going to insult my brother." Well, that just completely set bil off on a new warpath and he went on and on about how we have already insulted him and he would never, ever forget it. And, he even said that he will not accept one red dime of ours. I know that was anger talking and we have every intention of paying the man. I know that he desperately needs the money, too. In hindsight of the telephone conversation, things would have been so much easier if my dh had not paused or hestitated when discussing the money situation. But, what is done is done now. We are just trying to figure out what is the best way to proceed with this. Should we pay him the full amount (I know if we give him money, he willl accept it - even though his anger is saying he won't) or should we pay him what he earned? As with every situation, there are both sides. We have tried to look at his position as objectively as possible and truly look to see if we have wronged him. As hard as I have tried, I cannot see how we have done anything wrong. And, throughout the entire conversation, he couldn't say one thing that we had done wrong, except trying to rip him off now that the project was done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 To follow up on some of the questions: When my dh called bil to discuss the numbers and what would be fair payment, we fully expected bil to be able to discuss rationally the obvious situation that he didn't follow through with the job. But, as soon as my dh even made a slight hestitation over the amount, my bil went balistic! He didn't even ask what we were thinking about paying him. When my dh wanted to discuss the job and go over the numbers of each component of the project, bil accused dh of ripping him off and taking advantage of him. Bil said some extremely hurtful things to dh. We were on Skype, so this conversation was being broadcast over my computer, so I could hear every thing that was being said on both sides. I just sat there the entire time thinking, "Oh, my word! I can't believe he just said that!". Then, the next thing he said would be equally bad. At one point, I wanted my dh to point out that some obvious, but hurtful things about what bil has done, but my dh wouldn't. He said out loud to me (though, obviously bil heard him) "I am not going to insult my brother." Well, that just completely set bil off on a new warpath and he went on and on about how we have already insulted him and he would never, ever forget it. And, he even said that he will not accept one red dime of ours. I know that was anger talking and we have every intention of paying the man. I know that he desperately needs the money, too. In hindsight of the telephone conversation, things would have been so much easier if my dh had not paused or hestitated when discussing the money situation. But, what is done is done now. We are just trying to figure out what is the best way to proceed with this. Should we pay him the full amount (I know if we give him money, he willl accept it - even though his anger is saying he won't) or should we pay him what he earned? As with every situation, there are both sides. We have tried to look at his position as objectively as possible and truly look to see if we have wronged him. As hard as I have tried, I cannot see how we have done anything wrong. And, throughout the entire conversation, he couldn't say one thing that we had done wrong, except trying to rip him off now that the project was done. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: It does not sound like you or your dh have done anything wrong - including hesitating when discussing the money. It sounds like your BIL is under extreme stress and might be reacting out of stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddykate Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 :iagree: I do agree with you both, but now that the situation has progressed to the level it has - the anger, hurt feelings on both sides, etc. - do you feel that it would mend the relationship? My dh and I wonder if it would change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Girl Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Yes, it sounds like he is upset, possibly about something else. Could your DH try to talk to him again, when he's potentially cooled off? Are there any other family members who could act as a neutral party? What a tough situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Tough to say, since it is your husband's brother. Has he tried talking to him in person, one on one? If that doesn't work, I would suggest some type of neutral mediator (not another family member) that they could both agree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I do agree with you both, but now that the situation has progressed to the level it has - the anger, hurt feelings on both sides, etc. - do you feel that it would mend the relationship? My dh and I wonder if it would change anything. I got into this circumstance with my sister. She owed me $5,000 and I was tired of keeping my mouth shut. It was originally a much larger sum and was supposed to be for 6 mths, then I agreed to a 12 month extension. 5 years later she was still making small, irregular, often late, payments, while she was buying a $500,000 home in WA(lavish home). I asked her to refinance the loan into her own name, it ensued into an argument and I haven't heard from her since, 18mths now. I knew at the time that she may bolt on the loan if I mentioned it, but it was worth the money to get it off my chest. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If you can at all afford it I would pay him the whole amount. Better for you to be the bigger one and keep the family peace. Try to have empathy for him in his situation and forgive him. You would want your brother or sister to love you enough to do this, even if you were the one at fault. Brothers can't be replaced. You will know to avoid a similar situation with him like this in the future. If he continues to be extremely unreasonable with you regarding other events in the future, that is a different matter. Hopefully it will be a one time thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 You said the project was way over budget...is your family having money issues? I would make my first priority be my family (dh, dc, and you) If you can help that is up to you and your dh whether or not you want to. Do know that if you try to give the money as a loan that you have to accept that you might not get it back. It does sound like dh need to talk to BIL in person and then maybe have a mediator if that doesn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cera Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Since you said he needs the money I would bet the anger was because he thought he was counting on getting a certain amount of money from you and panicked when he realized he wouldn't be getting as much as he thought. I would write him a letter outlining the original agreement, what portions of that he fulfilled and how the financial aspects break down so that he can see what you are offering to pay him and why. It will allow you to communicate with him without it getting confrontational and then you can follow up with a phone call about a week after he gets the letter if you don't get a response from him. I would also make sure to cancel the power of attorney so that he no longer has access to your accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5KidzRUs Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 :iagree: PAY HIM and consider it a gift! $2K is not worth broken family ties. However, you and your dh need to find a way to come to terms with giving him the extra $2K so there are no resentments boiling under the surface. Personally, I would pay the $2K and start deducting the costs of gifts until it reached $2K :001_smile: For example, a $50 graduation gift for his son, instead of a $300 gift/cash ... A $40 Christmas gift for the whole family instead of several $50 gifts ... etc ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I would pay him the whole amount. Not because he earned it, but because of the relationship involved. In my mind, I would consider it a gift. Assuming your BIL is a reasonable person (which is why you hired him in the first place), I would chalk the behavior up to stress over his boy's health, and possible stress over the medical bills (who knows how much and what his insurance covers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This is a business arrangement. One would not overpay a hired contractor that was not family, why on earth pay one just because he is. Send an itemized list of what he did do, how much you are willing to pay for what he did and a check paying him for his services - all as per the original contract. Then if you are so inclined and have the money to give as a gift, send a nice card with a monetary gift that you do not expect back. Thank him for the part he played in making the house a reality, express sympathy for your nephew's illness and make note that the gift is for expenses incurred while nephew was sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoughCollie Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) I don't think the $2,000 is the underlying problem. Even if your BIL needs the money, his anger may be covering up hurt feelings. In my experience, anger often masks hurt feelings, which is why people can seem to be so unreasonable. IMO, when relatives or friends are involved, it is never just an objective business relationship. Does your BIL feel taken advantage of because you were going to save a lot of money because of your agreement with him? Is he mad at himself (and projecting it on you) because he did not charge you the going rate originally, and you all agreed to his "mistake"? Why didn't he charge you the going rate -- is it because he was desperate for work? Does he feel you took advantage of a desperate man? Does he think the cost overrun proves that? Did he assume that when you told him to concentrate on his sick son, that meant he didn't have to worry (assuming he had financial hardship), you would pay him the amount in full because he is your close relative, to help him out? BIL could have thought, okay, since my brother said told me not to worry, focus on my son, forget about the house, he is going to pay me in full. My brother knows I need the money to support my family, and he is my brother, so I (assume) will be paid in full. Does he say he would have continued and finished the job, despite his son having been sick, if he had known he wouldn't be paid in full? The crux of the problem is right here: When my nephew got sick, my dh told bil to just focus on his son and forget about the house, but no money or commitments were discussed at that time. I'd eat the cost and pay the BIL, and consider it a lesson learned. Next time you have to hire someone, discuss the money and make sure you do it so that everyone is clear about it every step of the way. In my discussion above, I'm just theorizing; I don't know the facts. Whatever the problem that underlies the dispute is, it must be resolved in order for the relationship not to be ruined by hurt feelings, because this is your BIL, if the relationship is worth it. It may be that this is a continuation (or a trigger of) of previously unaddressed issues between brothers, or that whatever his feelings are, they are similar to how your BIL frequently feels in his relationships (taken advantage of, etc.). Edited March 13, 2011 by RoughCollie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I would pay him the whole amount. Not because he earned it, but because of the relationship involved. In my mind, I would consider it a gift. Assuming your BIL is a reasonable person (which is why you hired him in the first place), I would chalk the behavior up to stress over his boy's health, and possible stress over the medical bills (who knows how much and what his insurance covers). This. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenKitty Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'd pay him for the work he completed. I don't see how one can expect payment for a job that was never finished, but that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 situation with him again. Never. I would pay him the whole amount. Not because he earned it, but because of the relationship involved. In my mind, I would consider it a gift. Assuming your BIL is a reasonable person (which is why you hired him in the first place), I would chalk the behavior up to stress over his boy's health, and possible stress over the medical bills (who knows how much and what his insurance covers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anita in NC Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I would pay him the whole amount. Not because he earned it, but because of the relationship involved. In my mind, I would consider it a gift. Assuming your BIL is a reasonable person (which is why you hired him in the first place), I would chalk the behavior up to stress over his boy's health, and possible stress over the medical bills (who knows how much and what his insurance covers). :iagree: However the situation is resolved I'm afraid there is going to be resentment either on your part or the BIL part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I would pay him the full amount because a change in the agreement was never discussed. I would even go so far as to write a letter of apology for the misunderstanding.He was told to not worry about the job but to focus on his son. Since a change in payment to him was not discussed, he assumed the payment would remain the same. I am guessing that if you had the other contractor do the work your brother did, it would have cost more than $2,000. I would pay it to him. You would have paid it to a different contractor if he hadn't been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This is a business arrangement. One would not overpay a hired contractor that was not family, why on earth pay one just because he is. Send an itemized list of what he did do, how much you are willing to pay for what he did and a check paying him for his services - all as per the original contract. Then if you are so inclined and have the money to give as a gift, send a nice card with a monetary gift that you do not expect back. Thank him for the part he played in making the house a reality, express sympathy for your nephew's illness and make note that the gift is for expenses incurred while nephew was sick. I would pay him the full amount because a change in the agreement was never discussed. I would even go so far as to write a letter of apology for the misunderstanding.He was told to not worry about the job but to focus on his son. Since a change in payment to him was not discussed, he assumed the payment would remain the same. I am guessing that if you had the other contractor do the work your brother did, it would have cost more than $2,000. I would pay it to him. You would have paid it to a different contractor if he hadn't been there. :iagree: with both of these. Is BIL in construction full time? If so, he should understand not get paid for work not completed. That's business. But if there was an assumption that he would still get paid AFTER your dh told him to focus on his son, well that's sticky. My dh is a contractor, and he works for family. He still treats it as a business and EVERYTHING is in writing. How I would respond would depend on how bil normally reacts. Is he stressed? Building a house is a huge stress, adding a sick child on that. I can imagine how he'd feel resentful. He may have been overwhelmed and made some assumptions about his pay. Did he have contact with the new contractor? If so does he feel resentful if you had to pay the OTHER contractor way more for the same work? 2k is a lot of money. If you pay it will you resent him? If you don't pay it will he speak to you? If you (meaning dh) can discuss it again and ask for clarification I would. If your dh can pay the additional amount and not hold it against his brother it might better in the long run. :grouphug: I hope it all works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 The difference between the amount of money he wants and what we think he earned is $2,000. It sounds like your BIL is being selfish, but I know nothing about his situation or financial commitments. I know nothing about the medical bills he incurred with a sick son. He may need the money. I don't know. Did your BIL know that you decided to hire another contractor? I think you guys are somewhat at fault for not being more specific with your BIL about where his part of the deal ended. Not knowing the full story, I would say that $2,000 is a small price to pay to keep the family peace and for a lesson learned. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcyB Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Did he assume that when you told him to concentrate on his sick son, that meant he didn't have to worry (assuming he had financial hardship), you would pay him the amount in full because he is your close relative, to help him out? I'm wondering if this might be it, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahbobeara Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If you can at all afford it I would pay him the whole amount. Better for you to be the bigger one and keep the family peace. Try to have empathy for him in his situation and forgive him. You would want your brother or sister to love you enough to do this, even if you were the one at fault. Brothers can't be replaced.You will know to avoid a similar situation with him like this in the future. If he continues to be extremely unreasonable with you regarding other events in the future, that is a different matter. Hopefully it will be a one time thing. :iagree: Originally I was going to suggest paying him 1/2, he has to KNOW that he left the job undone and even in the professional world, he shouldn't expect full payment for something that is not completed. However, it sounds like BIL is going through some rough things with his daughter...it turned to anger with your DH. It's hard to turn the other cheek, but peace in the family is worth so much these days. Just make a note not to do business with him in the future.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnTeaching Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 We learned the hard way to never, never, never do a contracting job of any sort with family. (Did I happen to mention -NEVER!). My dh's uncle is a contractor. A very well paid, "artistic", contractor that people give free rein with their bank accounts and artistic "vision". When we decided to add onto our house (a kitchen, mud & laundry room and bathroom.), he really pushed to do it. We told him flat out what our budget was and that we had concerns that we couldn't afford him. He said it would be no problem and that he could do it for the amount our budget allowed. When work started - he vanished. We VERY REARELY saw him supervising the job. He had gotten another big project about the time of our remodel and we were placed way down the list in priority. My dh was trying to do his computer tech management job and supervise the house. Bottom line, we were taken advantage of. 18 year old framers were here for 9 months, learning on the job and being paid by the hour. I watched them put something up one day, do it completely wrong, put it down another day and rebuild it - all the while charging us by the dollar. We even had items stolen from our house, but could never prove it was them. We added 500 sq. feet. While we were paying for both an apartment to live in and our house for a year (we were only supposed to be out for 4 months) our money just drained away. I was the one who was going balistic, but dh didn't want to confront his uncle. Prior to this, they had a wonderfully close relationship and would go fly-fishing. My dh was ALWAYS spending LARGE amounts of time helping his uncle with both his company and home computers. (Time and expertise that costs a lot of money in the "real world"). Dh felt hurt and as if all the work he had done over the years was not appreciated or acknowledged at all. Finally, we ran out of money. No kidding, $100,000 dollars later gone from our savings AND a second put on the home. DH finally blew up and yelled at his uncle. When we moved back into the house a year after work had started, it didn't even have a door. We had plywood up. 5 years later, we still have no landscaping on an acre. They destroyed all of our watering lines during construction and everything has died. The kid's bathroom we added has never been finished out. The basement ceiling is still ripped down where they put electrical wires in. I love the house. It is beautiful. But it was not worth the strife in the family. Dh and his uncle's relationship is ruined. It was also not worth the money. We were very comfortable before this fiasco. Not now. Lesson learned the hard way- NEVER do business with family and NEVER do it on a handshake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2cents Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I would pay him the whole amount. Not because he earned it, but because of the relationship involved. In my mind, I would consider it a gift. Assuming your BIL is a reasonable person (which is why you hired him in the first place), I would chalk the behavior up to stress over his boy's health, and possible stress over the medical bills (who knows how much and what his insurance covers). :iagree: AND I would NEVER do business with him again or with family period. I made that mistake once and it was a lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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