A ? for Muslims - hopefully not offensive...

[mom2bee]

Nadia, can you confirm I have this straight in my mind as I think others are likely unsure of the usage of "Allah" in the Arabic.

 

 

الله (Because of the way Arabic is written, I had trouble isolating this bit on the board. Sorry for this sloppy reply.

 

This word above is Allah, literally. When an Arabic speaking Muslims sees this, nothing else comes to mind but Allah. The God, the High, The Omnipotent, the Mighty, etc, etc, etc...Whatever they think of him as, thats what comes to mind. This is the guy who will preside over Judgement Day...Who created Adam and the world....

 

Which (roughly) transliterated is:

 

la illaha illa Allah

 

Which (roughly) translates as [there is] no god but [the one true] God.

 

But "Allah" here is NOT used here (or anywhere else) as the personal name of God, na'am? (Are you using the arabic word for 'yes'? :001_huh:)

 

 

Wait, I'm sorry, what?

 

My understanding has always been that 'Allah' is used there, in the Shahada as his name, his most common title. This is a weaker example, but I can't think of another one right now..."The only president is The President"...

 

You could take that to mean the only president that they acknowledge is The President and in the states, The President would be understood to be Obama...only God doesn't change office ever 4 years! :lol:. Sorry, couldn't help myself :lol:

 

There is just a different word for god than there is for "God" in Arabic.

 

Just as the 99 "names" of God in Islam are "attributes" of God, examples including ar-Rahman (the Beneficent) or ar-Rahim (the Merciful), but are not the personal name of God in the same way Allah is not the NAME of God any more (or less) than God is the name of God in English.

 

Do I have that correctly?

 

Bill

 

A fluent native Arabic speaker might have a different opinion, but based on what I learned growing up and my own understanding, I think what I have said is right.

 

The 99 names are also Names you could say a prayer and invoke Ar Rahman, or Al Malik or Al Quddus or Malik-ul-Mulk....they are his names, but also his attributes. Think of them as his titles! You might say "You grace" "Your higness" "Your Majesty" "your lordship" etc, to a King, but his primary, most populary title is still "King ZZZ"

 

People might not know who "The Lion Hearted" was, but even if they don't know history/literature, they know what King Richard is, yes?

[Veritaserum]

What a lot of hypocritical, lying, tyranical, extremist, radical bullies would do (and actually do) with a convert FROM Islam to something else? I couldn't say, but history shows us that tyranny and cruelty aren't exclusive to any one religion, race or creed.

 

:iagree: Indeed.

 

This discussion reminds me of "The Blind Men and the Elephant":

 

So oft in theologic wars,

The disputants, I ween,

Rail on in utter ignorance

Of what each other mean,

And prate about an Elephant

Not one of them has seen!

 

I am a Christian and I worship the God of Abraham. My understanding of Him differs from that of Jews, Muslims, and even other Christians (I do not believe in a Triune god), but I believe that divine truth and beauty are not exclusive to any one faith. We have more in common than many are willing to see. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Merciful heavens, I'm glad I'd swallowed my coffee. Yep, I agree. The two answers were interesting to me, but I still hold that they can not be the same. It's not logical.

 

Why couldn't God have four baseball mitts, one for catching prayers from Jews, one for catching prayers from Christians, one for catching prayers from Muslims and one for catching prayers from Baha'i. (Uh, what's the plural of that?) This might all be an argument over which glove is the nicest.

 

This isn't directed at you, Remudamom, just a musing on behalf of someone who isn't part of this target group ;) It doesn't seem reasonable to say Muslims don't know Jesus when he is one of their prophets. They must know him, they just aren't bestest, only, exclusive buddies.

 

Rosie

[Spy Car]

Actually, Bill, that is not correct which is what I tried to explain before. "Allah" is unique to the concept of Oneness in Islam (or in religion if you talk about GOD in Arabic). Il-lah means deity/god as in gods/goddesses and is conjugatable.

 

The 99 names of Allah are attributes, yes, but also names we call our Lord (Rabbana) and most are exclusive to Allah.

 

OK, I am confused. Allah is the One God, yes?

 

But Allah is not the "name" of God, but rather a way of saying God is not a god but the One [real and indivisible] God. Or am I still not getting a fine point?

 

Bill

[lionfamily1999]

Why couldn't God have four baseball mitts, one for catching prayers from Jews, one for catching prayers from Christians, one for catching prayers from Muslims and one for catching prayers from Baha'i. (Uh, what's the plural of that?) This might all be an argument over which glove is the nicest.

 

This isn't directed at you, Remudamom, just a musing on behalf of someone who isn't part of this target group ;) It doesn't seem reasonable to say Muslims don't know Jesus when he is one of their prophets. They must know him, they just aren't bestest, only, exclusive buddies.

 

Rosie

From a Christian pov...

 

Christ said that there is no other way than through Him. He also pleaded with God for some other way to be found and the answer was a no. That's why (for myself and the Christians I know) there can be no other way to God. Christ said so. Knowing Christ as something other than the savior, or something less than the son of God and only way through which God can be reached would mean that you don't actually know Him, iykwIm.

[Remudamom]

Wow...Its a little odd how immature and sensitive some posters are getting about this topic...

 

It says a lot about everyone's character, I think. Nice to know.

 

I just hate it when there is an elephant in the room. FTR, (yet again) I have no problem with anyone believing in whatever they want to believe.

 

I also am assuming that I am the "bully" referenced in this thread. I think it's far more bullying to make veiled comments about people. I say what I believe, I'm not making derogatory remarks about any people on this board, and I stand by what I said about false gods.

 

It doesn't make me mad, or really even deserve a comment, but you know, there's that elephant taking up space.

[Spy Car]

الله (Because of the way Arabic is written, I had trouble isolating this bit on the board. Sorry for this sloppy reply.

 

This word above is Allah, literally. When an Arabic speaking Muslims sees this, nothing else comes to mind but Allah. The God, the High, The Omnipotent, the Mighty, etc, etc, etc...Whatever they think of him as, thats what comes to mind. This is the guy who will preside over Judgement Day...Who created Adam and the world....

 

 

 

Wait, I'm sorry, what?

 

My understanding has always been that 'Allah' is used there, in the Shahada as his name, his most common title. This is a weaker example, but I can't think of another one right now..."The only president is The President"...

 

You could take that to mean the only president that they acknowledge is The President and in the states, The President would be understood to be Obama...only God doesn't change office ever 4 years! :lol:. Sorry, couldn't help myself :lol:

 

 

 

A fluent native Arabic speaker might have a different opinion, but based on what I learned growing up and my own understanding, I think what I have said is right.

 

The 99 names are also Names you could say a prayer and invoke Ar Rahman, or Al Malik or Al Quddus or Malik-ul-Mulk....they are his names, but also his attributes. Think of them as his titles! You might say "You grace" "Your higness" "Your Majesty" "your lordship" etc, to a King, but his primary, most populary title is still "King ZZZ"

 

People might not know who "The Lion Hearted" was, but even if they don't know history/literature, they know what King Richard is, yes?

 

I'm getting a little confuzalated :D

 

We might call a human "His Lordship" or "His Majesty" or "His Royal Highness" but these would be titles or attributes and not personal names, yes?

 

When a Muslim refers to al-Malik they refer to God as "the King" but God's name is not "King." Correct?

 

Likewise, Allah is not the personal name of God in Arabic, is it?

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I thought you missed her answer (see above).

 

You're right. I did miss that!

[mom2bee]

I don't understand the bolded. Do you mean they don't have a right to convert, or to tax?

 

Too harm the one who left Islam.

The religious beliefs and practices of another, especially a Non-Muslim are none of a Muslims business. If its your spouse our young adult child, you have the right and are within your limits to try and "bring them back" but you can't harm them.

 

You can't abuse them verbally or physically, or emotionally. You can't mistreat them, talk bad about them, slander them, rob or hurt or mistreat them.

 

Islam is for people who want to please god by being his willing servant to the best of THEIR ability, not so that someone can extol their own greatness by saying they are nth generation Muslims or whatever...

[Ester Maria]

But Allah is not the "name" of God, but rather a way of saying God is not a god but the One [real and indivisible] God. Or am I still not getting a fine point?

From what I understand, Allah is, linguistically, a kind of expressing THE God rather than A god, while at the same time doctrinally negating the existence of a gods aside from that THE God.

 

However, it doesn't have the "semantic value" of an expression like Hashem, as Ha-shem is essentially a label replacing the name (the shem in question), rather than a generic label for god that's been made definite by the usage of the definite article.

 

Allah is a bit like saying Ha-El, if you get what I mean.

[bbmom]

I know few (or perhaps none) on this thread will agree with me but I have to say that I think it is a shame that everyone feels the need to be "right" about God, instead of considering the possibility that each religion that exists on this earth is just one path to the one true God, whose love and understanding of humans is so immeasurable that He/She gave us so many ways to celebrate and worship that that as many as possible could come to know Him/Her.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm sorry but I don't understand your question. Could you rephrase?

 

Bill

 

Well, the original premise was that the God of the Jews, Islam and Christianity was all the same. But if the Muslims believe that Jews and Christians had a perverted understanding of who God is, can their (the Jews' and/or the Christian's) deity be truly called the same?

[mom2bee]

Wow....

 

Wow...Its a little odd how immature and sensitive some posters are getting about this topic...

 

I just hate it when there is an elephant in the room. FTR, (yet again) I have no problem with anyone believing in whatever they want to believe.

I don't know that FTR stands for, and the elephant in the room thing confuzzalated me, too :lol: Incase the nice, 21st century metaphor of how religion was like software was too subtle, I'm more techminded than literary. Please consider my handicap in the future when you'll are replying to poor little old me. :p lol

 

I also am assuming that I am the "bully" referenced in this thread. WAIT!!! Hold the phones! Do you mean this bully referenced!?

What a lot of hypocritical, lying, tyranical, extremist, radical bullies would do (and actually do) with a convert FROM Islam to something else? I couldn't say, but history shows us that tyranny and cruelty aren't exclusive to any one religion, race or creed.

Why do you think you fit that criteria? I had NO reason to even suspect that you or any of the Hivemind were lying, hypocritical tyrant bullies with extremist and radical beliefs that bullied people who left Islam, I think this is just an embarrassing coincidence. I'm really confused as to why you think this is aimed at you? Honestly? I was thinking more along the lines Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussien and other well documented historical (and modern) scum bags. I swear...

 

I think it's far more bullying to make veiled comments about people. I say what I believe, I'm not making derogatory remarks about any people on this board, and I stand by what I said about false gods.

 

I'm honestly sorry if you've been in any way upset or feel mistreated by any of my posts in this thread. I really am trying to be neutral, non-combatitive and clean cut. I am not meaning to upset or offend ANYONE. I only replied originally because a Muslims reply was specifically asked for.

 

It doesn't make me mad, or really even deserve a comment, but you know, there's that elephant taking up space. Again with the literary metaphors! I was never very good with those things guys, serious. Please? Can we all agree to be less poetic from now on and more frank/clear?

[mom2bee]

From what I understand, Allah is, linguistically, a kind of expressing THE God rather than A god, while at the same time doctrinally negating the existence of a gods aside from that THE God.

 

However, it doesn't have the "semantic value" of an expression like Hashem, as Ha-shem is essentially a label replacing the name (the shem in question), rather than a generic label for god that's been made definite by the usage of the definite article.

 

Allah is a bit like saying Ha-El, if you get what I mean.

 

I have no idea what or who Ha-Shem or Ha-El are or where they come from. Judaism maybe? :001_huh:, but I wan't to say that the bolded part of this post is leaning in the right direction. I don't know what semantic means in this case...I know I've heard trained linguists use that word though..

[Ester Maria]

I have no idea what or who Ha-Shem or Ha-El are or where they come from. Judaism maybe? :001_huh:, but I wan't to say that the bolded part of this post is leaning in the right direction.

I was trying to explain it Judaically to Bill, as I believe he's a lot closer to that mentality.

Glad to see I'm not far off!

[Spy Car]

From what I understand, Allah is, linguistically, a kind of expressing THE God rather than A god, while at the same time doctrinally negating the existence of a gods aside from that THE God.

 

However, it doesn't have the "semantic value" of an expression like Hashem, as Ha-shem is essentially a label replacing the name (the shem in question), rather than a generic label for god that's been made definite by the usage of the definite article.

 

Allah is a bit like saying Ha-El, if you get what I mean.

 

That is my understanding as well. Well phrased. I'm just looking for confirmation of that understanding (which I thought was going to be simpler :tongue_smilie:).

 

Bill

[Remudamom]

Without time to go back, and quickly, no, I don't think I fit that bully criteria, but I know how politically incorrect people are viewed upon this board, and I'm definitely pi.

[Spy Car]

I have no idea what or who Ha-Shem or Ha-El are or where they come from. Judaism maybe? :001_huh:, but I wan't to say that the bolded part of this post is leaning in the right direction. I don't know what semantic means in this case...I know I've heard trained linguists use that word though..

 

HaShem is the way (especially Orthodox) Jews refer to God. If something good happens, or if one is asked how they are, an Orthodox Jew would likely say: Baruch HaShem, in the same way a Muslim would say: Alhamdulillah.

 

But HaShem is a "substitute" for the personal name of God, which is sometimes referred to euphemistically as the Tetragrammaton. Jews (except for very narrow permissible circumstances) do not believe in using God's personal name and most Christian Bibles follow Jewish custom and replace the Tetragrammaton with "Lord" (from the Hebrew Adonai, which is another "avoidance" of the use of God's personal name).

 

Bill

[Osmosis Mom]

Why couldn't God have four baseball mitts, one for catching prayers from Jews, one for catching prayers from Christians, one for catching prayers from Muslims and one for catching prayers from Baha'i. (Uh, what's the plural of that?) This might all be an argument over which glove is the nicest.

 

This isn't directed at you, Remudamom, just a musing on behalf of someone who isn't part of this target group ;) It doesn't seem reasonable to say Muslims don't know Jesus when he is one of their prophets. They must know him, they just aren't bestest, only, exclusive buddies.

 

Rosie

 

Well, then you'd be Bahai..... (similar to UU).

 

I am not, but I do believe in a universal God!!

[Osmosis Mom]

OK, I am confused. Allah is the One God, yes?

 

But Allah is not the "name" of God, but rather a way of saying God is not a god but the One [real and indivisible] God. Or am I still not getting a fine point?

 

Bill

 

I think now we are in agreement!!:D

[Osmosis Mom]

I'm getting a little confuzalated :D

 

We might call a human "His Lordship" or "His Majesty" or "His Royal Highness" but these would be titles or attributes and not personal names, yes?

 

When a Muslim refers to al-Malik they refer to God as "the King" but God's name is not "King." Correct?

 

Likewise, Allah is not the personal name of God in Arabic, is it?

 

Bill

 

Allah is *the* name of God, so that must be personal name, right? Allah gave us 99 names that describe to us who He is and by which we can call Him. Boys can be called Malik, but Al-Malik is only Allah. You can be called Abdul Rahman, but not Rahman since that is reserved for just Allah.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know few (or perhaps none) on this thread will agree with me but I have to say that I think it is a shame that everyone feels the need to be "right" about God, instead of considering the possibility that each religion that exists on this earth is just one path to the one true God, whose love and understanding of humans is so immeasurable that He/She gave us so many ways to celebrate and worship that that as many as possible could come to know Him/Her.

 

Not everyone has a pluralistic view of the world. And many religions (including the one addressed in this thread) have specific doctrines or dogmas by which God and our relationship to him is defined. In fact, in that context, a pluralistic view of the world is impossible for people in those religions. Many of the questions on this thread are designed to try and understand just what that definition is in Islam. In fact, the OP's question was very specific to what God a Muslim worships. Islam has a very specific view of what is True regarding who God/Allah is. I'm grateful to the OP for asking this question because it has been helpful to my understanding as well.

[Spy Car]

Well, the original premise was that the God of the Jews, Islam and Christianity was all the same. But if the Muslims believe that Jews and Christians had a perverted understanding of who God is, can their (the Jews' and/or the Christian's) deity be truly called the same?

 

I think it is fair to say that among both Muslims and Jews you would find some (most) who would see each of these faiths striving to worship a common God, even if those who didn't share their personal religion were "misguided" to some degree (maybe a large degree) in what they believe and what is the true nature of God. Others will be less (for lack of a better word) ecumenically minded.

 

So one could (no doubt) find Muslims and Jews who would agree that Christians don't worship their God. These sorts of things are not unknown with-in branches of any given faith, nor between differing faith in a grand sense. KWIM?

 

Bill

[KnitWit]

So, Nadia, I am confused. I thought you just agreed with Bill that Allah is *not* the name of God. But the very next post you said Allah is *the* name of God.

 

I know Christians also have a number of *names of God*, such as Jehovah-Jireh, etc. But then, there is *I Am*. So, are you saying that Allah is to Muslims what *I Am* is to Christians? (I am referring to the *term*, I do realize that there is disagreement as to whether they are actually the same *being*.)

 

Why is this so confusing to me? :)

[lionfamily1999]

Too harm the one who left Islam.

The religious beliefs and practices of another, especially a Non-Muslim are none of a Muslims business. If its your spouse our young adult child, you have the right and are within your limits to try and "bring them back" but you can't harm them.

 

You can't abuse them verbally or physically, or emotionally. You can't mistreat them, talk bad about them, slander them, rob or hurt or mistreat them.

 

Islam is for people who want to please God by being his willing servant to the best of THEIR ability, not so that someone can extol their own greatness by saying they are nth generation Muslims or whatever...

Okay. Then it is completely opposed to how it has been handled elsewhere and now the comment about Sharia does not scare me. Thank you! I needed to have that cleared up.

I know few (or perhaps none) on this thread will agree with me but I have to say that I think it is a shame that everyone feels the need to be "right" about God, instead of considering the possibility that each religion that exists on this earth is just one path to the one true God, whose love and understanding of humans is so immeasurable that He/She gave us so many ways to celebrate and worship that that as many as possible could come to know Him/Her.

What Jean said...

[Mrs Mungo]

So, Nadia, I am confused. I thought you just agreed with Bill that Allah is *not* the name of God. But the very next post you said Allah is *the* name of God.

 

I know Christians also have a number of *names of God*, such as Jehovah-Jireh, etc. But then, there is *I Am*. So, are you saying that Allah is to Muslims what *I Am* is to Christians? (I am referring to the *term*, I do realize that there is disagreement as to whether they are actually the same *being*.)

 

Why is this so confusing to me? :)

 

But those are not God's name. Go back and read about Ishmael, this is a salient point in that story.

[Osmosis Mom]

So, Nadia, I am confused. I thought you just agreed with Bill that Allah is *not* the name of God. But the very next post you said Allah is *the* name of God.

 

I know Christians also have a number of *names of God*, such as Jehovah-Jireh, etc. But then, there is *I Am*. So, are you saying that Allah is to Muslims what *I Am* is to Christians? (I am referring to the *term*, I do realize that there is disagreement as to whether they are actually the same *being*.)

 

Why is this so confusing to me? :)

 

Illah is not Allah....Did I say anything differently? Il-lah means god/deity while Allah is a Personal Noun, like a name. If saying in Arabic the god/deity then it would be al-illah which is not the same as Allah.

 

Arab-speaking Christians call God Allah and use pretty much the same vocab as me. Guess living as neighbours we just figure things out and don't worry too much.

 

About sharia and a person leaving Islam...if that happened in a land where Sharia was the law and was properly implemented (not pseudo or by men wanting to subdue women etc. etc.), then it is the truth that the person would be stoned to death (I think stoned, but not sure). It is also a reality that if you lived under such circumstances, then you'd be smart enough to pack up and leave. The Afghanistan case is still ridiculous because I doubt any learned Islamic scholar would call the country Sharia-abiding and thus you cannot execute the sharia law there.

 

Was this politically incorrect enough?? By no compulsion in religion, then it is meant no compulsion to convert to Islam (which is a fact and other than that is propaganda).

 

 

 

I won'

Edited February 22, 2011 by Osmosis Mom

[KnitWit]

But those are not God's name. Go back and read about Ishmael, this is a salient point in that story.

OH! Gotcha!

[KnitWit]

Illah is not Allah....Did I say anything differently? Il-lah means god/deity while Allah is a Personal Noun, like a name. If saying in Arabic the god/deity then it would be al-illah which is not the same as Allah.

 

Arab-speaking Christians call God Allah and use pretty much the same vocab as me. Guess living as neighbours we just figure things out and don't worry too much.

 

Okay, I think I'm understanding.

 

I'm realizing that everyone who has had something to say about Muslims in my life has basically said so out of ignorance.

[Veritaserum]

Not everyone has a pluralistic view of the world. And many religions (including the one addressed in this thread) have specific doctrines or dogmas by which God and our relationship to him is defined. In fact, in that context, a pluralistic view of the world is impossible for people in those religions. Many of the questions on this thread are designed to try and understand just what that definition is in Islam. In fact, the OP's question was very specific to what God a Muslim worships. Islam has a very specific view of what is True regarding who God/Allah is. I'm grateful to the OP for asking this question because it has been helpful to my understanding as well.

 

Yes, but the statements and questions of some of those for whom "a pluralistic view of the world is impossible" crossed into unprovoked rudeness. I can understand and respect a strong belief. I find it difficult to understand and impossible to respect antagonistic statements of belief. It is quite possible to express one's beliefs in a polite manner. :) And if you find it impossible to say something nice.... ;)

 

I still like the elephant story:

 

And so these men of Indostan

Disputed loud and long,

Each in his own opinion

Exceeding stiff and strong,

Though each was partly in the right,

And all were in the wrong!

[Nan in Mass]

So do I.

[Spy Car]

Allah is *the* name of God, so that must be personal name, right?

 

No, not at all. For example, in English "God" is the "name" of God in the sense that is we refer to him, or the "name" a person of faith might use to appeal for help and guidance. But "God" is not seen as God's personal name, as if God could conceivably have a name like "Joe." My understanding is that Arabic is the same in this respect.

 

Allah gave us 99 names that describe to us who He is and by which we can call Him. Boys can be called Malik, but Al-Malik is only Allah. You can be called Abdul Rahman, but not Rahman since that is reserved for just Allah.

 

Yes, but again these are "attributes" of God. The Just, the Beneficent, the Merciful, etc. These "describe" to believers some of the awesomeness of God, but they are not "personal names."

 

To draw a parallel "Jesus" is the Anglicized "personal name" of Jesus. "Christ" is a title meaning "anointed one" in Greek (from Moshiach in Hebrew). People (especially Christians) will refer to Jesus as "Christ" but Christ is not the "personal name" of Jesus.

 

Bill

Edited February 23, 2011 by Spy Car

[KnitWit]

.....aaaaannnnndddd Bill just confused me again. :lol:

 

My head is exploding. I need to read a book.

 

Thanks for your patience!

[mo2]

Thank you to the Muslims who answered this thread. It has been interesting.

[Rosie_0801]

Well, the original premise was that the God of the Jews, Islam and Christianity was all the same. But if the Muslims believe that Jews and Christians had a perverted understanding of who God is, can their (the Jews' and/or the Christian's) deity be truly called the same?

 

A poster on here's profile pic looks like my mother in law. I know she is a perfectly nice person but ever time I see her pop up, I don't think "I like her," I think "I so wish there was a polite way to ask her to change her profile pic because I really don't like my mother in law." That poster would be the very same person even if she changed her profile pic to a hamburger, but I would be vastly more comfortable because hamburgers don't remind me of my MIL.

 

So, God is God and does whatever it is s/he usually does no matter what our perceptions are. That wouldn't be true if God is a construct of our own. I'm fine with that, obviously, but for those who believe God created us, that doesn't work. Or we could conclude that some other religious group is confused about names, and think they are worshiping God but they are really worshipping Somebodyelse and haven't noticed. Worshipping is a pretty deliberate thing, so I doubt that's what has happened. They must really be worshipping God, even if other groups think Somebodyelse has got in their way.

 

As far as I can tell, all the religious groups with a dog in this fight believe God is too vast to be completely known. Does that not mean that the most likely situation is that the different religious groups who firmly believe they are worshipping (or submitting to, or any other more appropriate verb) God are indeed worshipping God and are doing so in a way that is appropriate for the part of God they know? Surely that is a sensible thing to do, being that God is so vast you can't know 100% of him. Get on with what you are humanely capable of, so to speak? The elephant story would have been shorter, but it doesn't seem polite to compare anyone's god to an elephant!

 

Rosie

Edited February 23, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Storm Bay]

This is a statement of Islam and Christianity worshiping different gods. Christians do not believe that Jesus is a prophet, they believe Jesus is God.

 

I see how this could be confusing, as both Christians and Muslims recognize God the Creator...Christians would argue that Muslims don't truly *know* the Creator if they don't know Jesus. The book of Colossians gives a vivid picture of what I'm talking about. (Starting with Col 1:15 if you are looking for a specific reference)

 

Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God or that there is a trinity. The church was split in half over this after Constantine announced that the doctrine of the trinity was going to be the correct one (see book When Jesus Became God.) Many of the Christians in Northern Africa did not accept the trinity, and, centuries later, converted to Islam.

 

Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe that they are serving the God of Abraham, but while the majority of Christians believe that Jesus is God, Muslims and most Jews do not believe that Jesus is the son of God. Then there are Christians who believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God but not God.

 

Just as there are Christians who say that Allah is not the God of Abraham, there are Christians who think that anyone who worships Jesus as God cannot be worshipping Him, and trinitarians who claim that you can't be saved without believing in the Trinity, and so on. Because of this, I can see why there is confusion for those who are not in any of these groups.

[homeschoolmom]

I know few (or perhaps none) on this thread will agree with me but I have to say that I think it is a shame that everyone feels the need to be "right" about God, instead of considering the possibility that each religion that exists on this earth is just one path to the one true God, whose love and understanding of humans is so immeasurable that He/She gave us so many ways to celebrate and worship that that as many as possible could come to know Him/Her.

 

I believe in all paths to God. :)

 

But the original point of this thread was to better understand Islam in an academic sense so as to explain to a child with a different cultural, religious background in a way that could be understood and be honest and respectful.

 

Any time religion or politics comes up things go sour fast. I'm frankly surprised this thread has managed to stay so above board and I think it speaks well of the participants.

 

Shawna - Our library has some interesting reads on this subject. If this piques your interest in the subject, I'll forward you my list. I'm still on my quest of better understanding the 'big three' (and failing miserably as it's hard understanding a "known truth" from a different perspective).

Edited February 23, 2011 by homeschoolmom

[Jean in Newcastle]

A poster on here's profile pic looks like my mother in law. I know she is a perfectly nice person but ever time I see her pop up, I don't think "I like her," I think "I so wish there was a polite way to ask her to change her profile pic because I really don't like my mother in law." That poster would be the very same person even if she changed her profile pic to a hamburger, but I would be vastly more comfortable because hamburgers don't remind me of my MIL.

 

So, God is God and does whatever it is s/he usually does no matter what our perceptions are. That wouldn't be true if God is a construct of our own. I'm fine with that, obviously, but for those who believe God created us, that doesn't work. Or we could conclude that some other religious group is confused about names, and think they are worshiping God but they are really worshipping Somebodyelse and haven't noticed. Worshipping is a pretty deliberate thing, so I doubt that's what has happened. They must really be worshipping God, even if other groups think Somebodyelse has got in their way.

 

As far as I can tell, all the religious groups with a dog in this fight believe God is too vast to be completely known. Does that not mean that the most likely situation is that the different religious groups who firmly believe they are worshipping (or submitting to, or any other more appropriate verb) God are indeed worshipping God and are doing so in a way that is appropriate for the part of God they know? Surely that is a sensible thing to do, being that God is so vast you can't know 100% of him. Get on with what you are humanely capable of, so to speak?

 

Rosie

 

What complicates this is that Christians believe (for the most part) that God revealed Himself in the Old and New Testaments. So that we can know who God is. And that specifically, God revealed Himself through Jesus Christ. So, the God of the NT is a further picture of Himself by which we know Him. Obviously Muslims would disagree and would say (I think) that the Koran gives us a further picture by which we know him or perhaps a better picture by which we might know him. I think it is safe to say that the two pictures contradict each other on some key points. So if I'm worshiping a God whose "picture" I got from one source can I be worshiping the same God whose "picture" comes from a contradictory source? Personally I'm comfortable saying no. And if, as was said earlier in the thread, I'm going to Muslim hell if I don't believe the Koran, then I would assume a Muslim person would say "no" as well (except that of course they are on the other side of believing which picture is the right one).

[LittleIzumi]

A poster on here's profile pic looks like my mother in law. I know she is a perfectly nice person but ever time I see her pop up, I don't think "I like her," I think "I so wish there was a polite way to ask her to change her profile pic because I really don't like my mother in law." That poster would be the very same person even if she changed her profile pic to a hamburger, but I would be vastly more comfortable because hamburgers don't remind me of my MIL.

 

So, God is God and does whatever it is s/he usually does no matter what our perceptions are. That wouldn't be true if God is a construct of our own. I'm fine with that, obviously, but for those who believe God created us, that doesn't work. Or we could conclude that some other religious group is confused about names, and think they are worshiping God but they are really worshipping Somebodyelse and haven't noticed. Worshipping is a pretty deliberate thing, so I doubt that's what has happened. They must really be worshipping God, even if other groups think Somebodyelse has got in their way.

 

As far as I can tell, all the religious groups with a dog in this fight believe God is too vast to be completely known. Does that not mean that the most likely situation is that the different religious groups who firmly believe they are worshipping (or submitting to, or any other more appropriate verb) God are indeed worshipping God and are doing so in a way that is appropriate for the part of God they know? Surely that is a sensible thing to do, being that God is so vast you can't know 100% of him. Get on with what you are humanely capable of, so to speak? The elephant story would have been shorter, but it doesn't seem polite to compare anyone's god to an elephant!

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

A poster on here's profile pic looks like my mother in law. I know she is a perfectly nice person but ever time I see her pop up, I don't think "I like her," I think "I so wish there was a polite way to ask her to change her profile pic because I really don't like my mother in law."

It's my parrot isn't?:leaving:

Edited February 23, 2011 by Parrothead

[happi duck]

Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God ...

 

Now I'm confused...I've never heard the above. I thought 'Jesus is God' was part of the definition of Christian. :confused:

 

Learning a lot with this thread!

[happi duck]

Its my parrot isn't?:leaving:

 

:lol::lol::lol: must be!

[helena]

Please take this in the information seeking way we intend it - I am truly not trying to offend anyone, but I want to give my ds the right information and I just don't know the answer.

 

We were reading about the Rise of Islam in history, and my son had a question about Allah. He was wondering, since Muhammad was influenced by the Judeo-Christian beliefs in one God, and since he had a visit by the Archangel Gabriel, if Allah is the same as the Christian God but that Muslims just worship Him differently.

 

Is anyone willing to clarify? Or, if the whole question is rude and offensive, let me know and I'll delete it.

 

Another Muslim here... Same God. :)

I don't find the question rude or offensive at all, and I hope you're not feeling discouraged to ask questions in the future.

 

Sometimes I think there needs to be an "Ask a Muslim Day". Though I'm sure the thought makes some Muslim posters here cringe! :lol: I've found in other Muslim related posts here that some people want to ask all sorts of stuff, but for various reasons don't.

 

Hats off to you for taking a chance, and reaching out!

[oldskool]

Leslie, I hope you (or other Muslims) don't mind my attempts to explain (to the best of my ability) the basics of Islamic thinking. I get the feeling it can't be easy for y'all not to feel on the defensive when these topics come up.

 

Peace,

 

Bill

 

 

It is much appreciated. :001_smile: I lack the energy right now to do so myself and it has been nice to sit back and listen. You're doing a great job explaining.

 

Lesley

[Storm Bay]

[

No, not at all. For example, in English "God" is the "name" of God in the sense that is we refer to him, or the "name" a person of faith might use to appeal for help and guidance. But "God" is not seen as God's personal name, as if God could conceivably have a name like "Joe." My understanding is that Arabic is the same in this respect.

 

 

Bill

 

In the Bible there are different names, titles and attributes of God as well. His name is Jehovah/Yahweh (same Hebrew letters).

 

Now I'm confused...I've never heard the above. I thought 'Jesus is God' was part of the definition of Christian. :confused:

 

Learning a lot with this thread!

 

If you read the Bible in English or in the original languages you will never, ever see the phrase "Jesus is God." Not even once. However, the phrase "son of God" appears many times. Nor will you see "God the son." There have always been Christians who don't believe that Jesus is God, but due to great oppression in Christianity for hundreds of years, that was a minority in Europe, etc. Even the history of trinitarian protestants (meaning "for witness") was largely suppressed and/or destroyed until around the time of the reformation.

[Melissa in Australia]

Now I'm confused...I've never heard the above. I thought 'Jesus is God' was part of the definition of Christian. :confused:

 

Learning a lot with this thread!

 

and that is one of the problems, people mistakenly think that everyone has the same view as themselves.

 

I am in the camp of Allah being the same God, and Jesus is not God, but his son ( non trinity).

[Rosie_0801]

So if I'm worshiping a God whose "picture" I got from one source can I be worshiping the same God whose "picture" comes from a contradictory source?

 

You've never seen yourself in a mirror and shouted "my butt isn't that big!" And gone to check in a "skinny" mirror? :lol:

 

I get it, really. I just think it's a strange thing to worry about when God is omniscient and knows everyone's intentions, and is generally agreed to be capable of dealing with everyone whether they are behaving or not.

 

No Chucki, it isn't :D To be fair on my MIL, she has better taste in sunglasses than your parrot. (No offense, Parrot, you're just a bit eclectic in the colour department for my taste.)

 

So I'm thinking, if you don't believe you are all following the same god, you would say to your curious child, "Muslims believe they follow the same God as Christians and Jews. I'm not very comfortable with that, but I trust God will take care of it."

 

Rosie

Edited February 23, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Spy Car]

 

In the Bible there are different names, titles and attributes of God as well. His name is Jehovah/Yahweh (same Hebrew letters).

 

Yes, this name (actually the latter of the two variations) is what observant Jews avoid using and they usually substitute HaShem in normal discourse, and Adonai (Lord) in prayer. Most Christian Bibles say "LORD God" when the Hebrew text uses YHWH (letters an observant Jew would not put together in a post).

 

If you read the Bible in English or in the original languages you will never, ever see the phrase "Jesus is God." Not even once. However, the phrase "son of God" appears many times. There have always been Christians who don't believe that Jesus is God, but due to great oppression in Christianity for hundreds of years, that was a minority in Europe, etc. Even the history of trinitarian protestants (meaning "for witness") was largely suppressed and/or destroyed until around the time of the reformation.

 

There certainly are a multiplicity of differing beliefs.

 

Bill

[kalphs]

We believe on One God and our sentiments are pretty much what Bill mentioned. If you ask a little child to pray to God, whom would they pray to? That's the God I pray to (one line of communication and no middlemen, so to spea,k and One Creator and Ruler only).

 

BTW, the word "Allah" in Arabic is unconjugatable in contrast to the word "illah" which means god/deity.

Thank you for sharing Nadia! :)

[AHASRADA]

I don't know if there is much I can add here, but I will most definitely say that Muslims, Christians, Jews, dare I say even Hindus and other polytheists, worship the same God. There is one God, the Creator, who instilled in us a longing to worship a force greater than ourselves, which is Him. How we go about that, our source of inspiration and guidelines for behavior, our believed path to salvation, even our impression of who our Creator is and His attributes may differ, but that does not change who God is.

 

We may follow different scriptures, have disagreements about who Jesus (peace be upon him) was, and each of us may believe that our path is the right one and that followers of other religions have been led astray and are not worshiping God in the way He intended. None of this, however, has any effect on the nature of God Himself (and how presumptuous of us as mere humans to imagine that it would!)

 

So, yes, Muslims worship the same God as Christians. We worship in different ways, our concept of God may differ in some ways, but The One God is just that, to everyone.