MCT writing, a shift in view

[8filltheheart]

I just wanted to share on this board the shift in my view on the MCT writing materials. I posted about it on the high school board, but since I mostly endorsed MCT's writing program on this forum, I thought I should post here as well.

 

I have made the decision to no longer use or recommend MCT writing. It isn't a decision that I am ecstatic over. My dd and I have loved the way the vocabulary, writing, and poetry have intertwined. I'm still struggling with whether or not I am going to abandon all of the materials. I LOVE the vocabulary and poetry books. Honestly, with the exception of being aggravated by mistakes in the texts and not personally liking the approach to grammar, his materials have been the first that I have enjoyed using to teach LA. It was a natural fit b/c it is *how* I teach.

 

Unfortunately, I have come across what I believe is an error in his approach to teaching writing that I personally just cannot ignore. It is pervasive throughout his upper level books. I am completely perplexed at how such an egregious error appears in every single essay produced in the upper level books. (It is consistently there in Essay Voyage, AAW level 1, and AAW level 2). And if it isn't an "error," it is enough of a serious stylistic disagreement with my philosophy of writing that I reject it as acceptable form for teaching my children how to write properly.

 

What is it? It is his teaching about how to use MLA format and incorporating long quotes. Quotes of more than 4 lines are indented. (no problem. Yes, that is the accepted standard.) However, after every single use of a long quote in his essay examples, he follows with new paragraph vs supporting the long quote within the same paragraph. The resulting paragraphs are weak and quotes are left unsupported by the writer. It is not a form I want my kids to replicate nor do I want them to think it is proper form.

 

Standard writing conventions dictate that quotes support the writer's argument. Quotes are not the argument. Thus, the writer needs to expand on the quote to prove their thesis. To end every single paragraph using a long quote with the quote itself is simply "unconventional" form and not one that I want to encourage my students to use.

 

At first I thought that I was completely confused about MLA rules or that it might be a formatting error. I knew that the resulting paragraphs that we were reading sounded wrong, but I am weak on MLA rules (I learned the old footnote way). But after researching MLA rules, MLA treats long quotes the same as short quotes w/in paragraph structure, so no, there does not HAVE to be an indented first line after a long quote. That links back to a formatting mistake being a logical explanation b/c it occurs in every single MLA essay example in all 3 books. Every example. I thought perhaps it was simply a publishing mistake and that the indent was incorrect and that they were not meant to be new paragraphs.

 

But, swimmermom3 asked about it on the RFP forums and she posted his response on my thread on the high school board. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2419383&page=2

 

For me, it is only a question of whether or not the following paragraph is a new one. If the quotation occurs in the middle of a paragraph, then I do not indent after the quotation when I write. If the topic of the following paragraph is different, even slightly, then I indent. I do not remember writing about that in the text, but it is what I do in my own writing. In other words, the presence or absence of a quotation does nothing to alter the standard treatment of a paragraph. I am certain that there is no rule that requires you not to indent because you are following a quotation. Thanks for asking about that.

 

If you follow the link to the high school board, there is a link to an online pdf example MLA essay. If you read that essay, you might (or not) understand what I am talking about.

 

I felt that in case my recommendation for his materials influenced anyone in that direction that I needed to share my concerns about the upper level materials.

Edited February 13, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[AuntPol]

I love MCT for grammar at lower levels but I'm struggling with writing. We love the story for Paragraph town but my kids are just not translating what they learn to what they need to do on paper. I'm about to buy IEW's SICC_A midway and continue on from there. and only do the story parts of voyage.

 

Right now, I am leaning to not using AAW but use the other components.

[PenKase]

Oh no! Oh no! This is not good. This is not good at all. I was banking on using MCT all the way through. I had LA in the bag! WE LOVE MCT HERE!

[EKS]

In looking at the sample you linked, I see the indentation. However, every single time what is written after the long quote supports the quote. So it's not that the quotes are unsupported, it's just that they're not supported in the same paragraph, which makes me feel a bit better, as I was worried that you meant that he was just leaving the quotes totally hanging.

 

I, too, have issues with the MCT materials. While they have transformed our language arts experience, and for that I am grateful, I get tired of the typos, the schizophrenic nature of the instruction, the lack of practice in certain areas, and the leaps the student is frequently required to make to go from instruction to practice (this happens in the writing in particular).

[Tammyla]

Thank you. I always appreciate your reviews.

 

I just wanted to share on this board the shift in my view on the MCT writing materials. I posted about it on the high school board, but since I mostly endorsed MCT's writing program on this forum, I thought I should post here as well.

 

I have made the decision to no longer use or recommend MCT writing. It isn't a decision that I am ecstatic over. My dd and I have loved the way the vocabulary, writing, and poetry have intertwined. I'm still struggling with whether or not I am going to abandon all of the materials. I LOVE the vocabulary and poetry books. Honestly, with the exception of being aggravated by mistakes in the texts and not personally liking the approach to grammar, his materials have been the first that I have enjoyed using to teach LA. It was a natural fit b/c it is *how* I teach.

 

Unfortunately, I have come across what I believe is an error in his approach to teaching writing that I personally just cannot ignore. It is pervasive throughout his upper level books. I am completely perplexed at how such an egregious error appears in every single essay produced in the upper level books. (It is consistently there in Essay Voyage, AAW level 1, and AAW level 2). And if it isn't an "error," it is enough of a serious stylistic disagreement with my philosophy of writing that I reject it as acceptable form for teaching my children how to write properly.

 

What is it? It is his teaching about how to use MLA format and incorporating long quotes. Quotes of more than 4 lines are indented. (no problem. Yes, that is the accepted standard.) However, after every single use of a long quote in his essay examples, he follows with new paragraph vs supporting the long quote within the same paragraph. The resulting paragraphs are weak and quotes are left unsupported by the writer. It is not a form I want my kids to replicate nor do I want them to think it is proper form.

 

Standard writing conventions dictate that quotes support the writer's argument. Quotes are not the argument. Thus, the writer needs to expand on the quote to prove their thesis. To end every single paragraph using a long quote with the quote itself is simply "unconventional" form and not one that I want to encourage my students to use.

 

At first I thought that I was completely confused about MLA rules or that it might be a formatting error. I knew that the resulting paragraphs that we were reading sounded wrong, but I am weak on MLA rules (I learned the old footnote way). But after researching MLA rules, MLA treats long quotes the same as short quotes w/in paragraph structure, so no, there does not HAVE to be an indented first line after a long quote. That links back to a formatting mistake being a logical explanation b/c it occurs in every single MLA essay example in all 3 books. Every example. I thought perhaps it was simply a publishing mistake and that the indent was incorrect and that they were not meant to be new paragraphs.

 

But, swimmermom3 asked about it on the RFP forums and she posted his response on my thread on the high school board. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2419383&page=2

 

For me, it is only a question of whether or not the following paragraph is a new one. If the quotation occurs in the middle of a paragraph, then I do not indent after the quotation when I write. If the topic of the following paragraph is different, even slightly, then I indent. I do not remember writing about that in the text, but it is what I do in my own writing. In other words, the presence or absence of a quotation does nothing to alter the standard treatment of a paragraph. I am certain that there is no rule that requires you not to indent because you are following a quotation. Thanks for asking about that.

 

If you follow the link to the high school board, there is a link to an online pdf example MLA essay. If you read that essay, you might (or not) understand what I am talking about.

 

I felt that in case my recommendation for his materials influenced anyone in that direction that I needed to share my concerns about the upper level materials.

[8filltheheart]

In looking at the sample you linked, I see the indentation. However, every single time what is written after the long quote supports the quote. So it's not that the quotes are unsupported, it's just that they're not supported in the same paragraph, which makes me feel a bit better, as I was worried that you meant that he was just leaving the quotes totally hanging.

 

I, too, have issues with the MCT materials. While they have transformed our language arts experience, and for that I am grateful, I get tired of the typos, the schizophrenic nature of the instruction, the lack of practice in certain areas, and the leaps the student is frequently required to make to go from instruction to practice (this happens in the writing in particular).

 

Yes, that is why I thought perhaps it was actually a publisher's formatting problem.

 

The problem that I have is that paragraph structure means something. You should be able to read a paragraph and essentially have a complete thought (parallel to sentence structure). When I read his paragraphs as written, his paragraphs are lacking. I also would never allow a student to introduce a long quote with a single sentence and follow with the long quote and that be the end of the paragraph. To me that is an unsupported quote.

[Mommyfaithe]

Thanks for posting this 8. I think this is why I have always been uncomfortable leaving all my LA eggs in one basket. My LA needs have always been a hodgepodge of this and that with a bunch of me thrown in for spice :D:D. I have always felt a bit edgy about changing writing and grammar programs often...but instead of confusing my kids, like changing math midstream, it has given them a very wide view of the art of language.

 

I may still be apt to use MCT products with my own bent, but that is me.

 

If you love the materials and they make you happy when using them, it is certainly ok...and even fun....to disagree with the author and to teach your kids your way. My kids love when I say..."the books says do this, but I disagree, this is why and want you to Format it this way."

I puts me back in the drivers seat...where I like to be.

 

Faithe

Edited February 13, 2011 by Mommyfaithe

[wapiti]

I agree about the quote issue - that definitely would bug me. Thanks for sharing.

 

I'm always trying to keep an open mind, and maybe I'll change tomorrow, but for the moment I've decided against MCT for my dd. While she is a visual learner, she has language processing issues that involve comprehension, and I'm concerned that the format of the materials (from what I could see from the samples) would involve too much comprehension (either auditory or reading). I'd rather avoid teaching through her weaknesses. I'm planning on a more straightforward approach . Oddly enough, in spite of the mysterious language processing issue, dd's grammar and writing are already very good, go figure - I really don't know why. When I consider that, I'm under less pressure to find a "fancy" curriculum like MCT for language arts. Maybe I also feel that the MCT materials are just not my personal style - too wordy for me? I prefer bullet points, so to speak. Perhaps my fears are unfounded - the hardest to judge from the sample was Paragraph Town. The sample is too limited.

[EKS]

The problem that I have is that paragraph structure means something. You should be able to read a paragraph and essentially have a complete thought (parallel to sentence structure). When I read his paragraphs as written, his paragraphs are lacking.

 

I agree.

 

 

I also would never allow a student to introduce a long quote with a single sentence and follow with the long quote and that be the end of the paragraph. To me that is an unsupported quote.

 

You make a good point. When I looked at the essay you linked, I was just looking at the part after the quotes.

[applesing]

Oh wow! :001_huh: Thank you so much for posting this.

 

I agree -- this style is improper, and when I was an English teacher, I would have deducted points for it. I was always taught that you never just leave the quote "hanging" at the end of a paragraph; you must end the paragraph by supporting the quote, using it to bolster your argument.

 

In fact, my degree is from Purdue University (linked several times on the High School thread), and MCT's quotation use would be marked wrong there.

 

I am truly sad to learn about this! We are really enjoying Island level, and I thought that I had found the LA curriculum for us.

 

I will be curious to see if RFP has any additional comment regarding this issue.

 

Lynne

[Jen500]

8FillTheHeart, could you tell me exactly what your issues are with Essay Voyage? We are getting ready to use it and I really don't see the problem you are discussing in this book. There are maybe only three writing samples with any quotations, and I'm just not getting your critique in reference to Essay Voyage. Do you think his instruction is incorrect or just his writing examples? Do you think his writing samples are not supporting the quotations explicitly enough?

 

I haven't seen AAW, so I'm really asking about EV. Do you recommend another writing program that you feel is better than MCT? (Some of us need a program :tongue_smilie:)

[8filltheheart]

8FillTheHeart, could you tell me exactly what your issues are with Essay Voyage? We are getting ready to use it and I really don't see the problem you are discussing in this book. There are maybe only three writing samples with any quotations, and I'm just not getting your critique in reference to Essay Voyage. Do you think his instruction is incorrect or just his writing examples? Do you think his writing samples are not supporting the quotations explicitly enough?

 

I haven't seen AAW, so I'm really asking about EV. Do you recommend another writing program that you feel is better than MCT? (Some of us need a program :tongue_smilie:)

 

It doesn't show up until chpt 7 in EV. If you flip through the book and look at every non-classic essay example, you will see that every time there is a long quote that it ends the paragraph. Every time. If it were the odd example, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It is the fact that it is every example. (I believe it is precisely b/c the non-classic essay examples are meant to teach MLA that that is where it shows up.)

 

It really isn't as big an issue in EV as it is AAW. EV includes a lot of instruction that is not based strictly on the the example essays. (the entire first 1/2 of the book. EV also includes the classic examples) In AAW, the "student" essays are the key part of the instructional material, so it is pretty hard to separate the problem.

 

Since in AAS the writing instruction and the examples are intertwined.......

 

Ending paragraphs w/long quotes, introducing long quotes with a sentence or 2 and then ending the paragraph after the long quote, those are structural issues that I do not want to encourage in my writers.

[Ali in OR]

Thanks for posting this 8. I think this is why I have always been uncomfortable leaving all my LA eggs in one basket. My LA needs have always been a hodgepodge of this and that with a bunch of me thrown in for spice :D:D. I have always felt a bit edgy about changing writing and grammar programs often...but instead of confusing my kids, like changing math midstream, it has given them a very wide view of the art of language.

 

I may still be apt to use MCT products with my own bent, but that is me.

 

If you love the materials and they make you happy when using them, it is certainly ok...and even fun....to disagree with the author and to teach your kids your way. My kids love when I say..."the books says do this, but I disagree, this is why and want you to Format it this way."

I puts me back in the drivers seat...where I like to be.

 

Faithe

 

:iagree:

I do appreciate the heads up, and as we move forward with MCT, I will point this out as an error to my dds. But we get too much good out of MCT to ditch it. I have learned so much just using Paragraph Town this year. I tend to use more than one program for most subjects to have different approaches and to benefit from their different strengths. For us, handling this topic incorrectly (and I do agree that it is incorrect to always or even usually indent after a long quote), does not disqualify it for use in our home. Again, I really appreciate having the heads up though so that I can address it when we hit that point. Thank you.

[FairProspects]

Oh wow! :001_huh: Thank you so much for posting this.

 

I agree -- this style is improper, and when I was an English teacher, I would have deducted points for it. I was always taught that you never just leave the quote "hanging" at the end of a paragraph; you must end the paragraph by supporting the quote, using it to bolster your argument.

 

In fact, my degree is from Purdue University (linked several times on the High School thread), and MCT's quotation use would be marked wrong there.

 

I am truly sad to learn about this! We are really enjoying Island level, and I thought that I had found the LA curriculum for us.

 

I will be curious to see if RFP has any additional comment regarding this issue.

 

Lynne

 

:iagree:I would have deducted points for it too when I was teaching High School History & Writing. We aren't there yet age-wise, but I don't think we will be using MCT, at least the writing portion. There are just better ways to teach good writing conventions and style.

[annabanana1992]

:iagree:

I do appreciate the heads up, and as we move forward with MCT, I will point this out as an error to my dds. But we get too much good out of MCT to ditch it. I have learned so much just using Paragraph Town this year. I tend to use more than one program for most subjects to have different approaches and to benefit from their different strengths. For us, handling this topic incorrectly (and I do agree that it is incorrect to always or even usually indent after a long quote), does not disqualify it for use in our home. Again, I really appreciate having the heads up though so that I can address it when we hit that point. Thank you.

 

:iagree: I'm with you!

[agst1967]

So, what would be another alternative to at least the writing portion? We are LOVING Island...and was so looking forward to Town next year! We will still use it, but may focus writing elsewhere...what would be a good direction to point me?

 

Alicia

[Colleen in NS]

it is certainly ok...and even fun....to disagree with the author and to teach your kids your way. My kids love when I say..."the books says do this, but I disagree, this is why and want you to Format it this way."

 

In AAW, the "student" essays are the key part of the instructional material, so it is pretty hard to separate the problem.

 

Since in AAS the writing instruction and the examples are intertwined.....

 

I'm glad you posted about this, 8FillTheHeart, because I'm imagining that people who have to watch their pennies and have to carefully evaluate the materials they buy might not be too happy about spending the money (isn't price a consideration for MCT?) on these materials and then finding out they have to basically go against how the author is teaching. Some kids would even have a hard time with going against what the book says, esp. because, to me, this paragraph issue does not seem like a minor writing issue.

[Kuovonne]

Yes, that is why I thought perhaps it was actually a publisher's formatting problem.

 

Why do you think that it is not a publisher's formatting problem that is simply repeated throughout all of his books? From his reply that you posted, it sounds like MCT personally thinks that some paragraphs should continue after a long quote, even if the formatting of his books implies differently. However, I can easily see how someone (working for the publisher) might apply formatting that creates a new paragraph after every long quote, without even realizing that she was breaking a paragraph. (I used to be a technical writer, and I've had co-workers capable of similar gross mistakes.)

 

If the books were revised to eliminate the paragraph indent where it didn't belong, changing nothing else, would this specific concern of yours be removed?

[applesing]

I am hoping that this is a publisher's formatting issue and that RFP will address the mistake. I love his program, but this is a serious problem for academic writing. The main reason I would do the upper levels of the writing program would be to prepare my students for college level MLA format writing. If every essay is littered with this error, that is going to be a problem. I am looking forward to previewing the books myself at a convention this spring.

[swimmermom3]

Thanks for posting this 8. I think this is why I have always been uncomfortable leaving all my LA eggs in one basket. My LA needs have always been a hodgepodge of this and that with a bunch of me thrown in for spice :D:D. I have always felt a bit edgy about changing writing and grammar programs often...but instead of confusing my kids, like changing math midstream, it has given them a very wide view of the art of language.

 

I may still be apt to use MCT products with my own bent, but that is me.

 

If you love the materials and they make you happy when using them, it is certainly ok...and even fun....to disagree with the author and to teach your kids your way. My kids love when I say..."the books says do this, but I disagree, this is why and want you to Format it this way."

I puts me back in the drivers seat...where I like to be.

 

Faithe

 

This is the way that I am leaning at this point in spite of the issue that 8FilltheHeart has raised. I finally had time to check back in on the thread at Royal Fireworks Press Homeschool forum and Mr. Thompson had responded again in length. I have asked his permission to reprint his response on our board and will check back tomorrow. He has seen our discussion here and addresses several points in his response. Without directly quoting Mr. Thompson, I can say that the indented paragraphs are not an MS Word formatting issue. Also, the very first essay in AAW, Vol. 1 on p. 4 shows exactly the format that Eight was looking for.

 

For what it is worth, Eight, my dd was more phlegmatic in her response to the issue. She said she saw why it might bother me, but it wasn't a big deal to her. She read Mr. Thompson's first response and said it made sense to her and that she was going to continue working on her own through the AAW books. She finds the explanations as to what is wrong with the student examples to be very helpful. Also, we discuss one of the classic essays in Essay Voyage each week. This seems to be a productive format for her and she has a couple of handbooks if she gets stuck.

[8filltheheart]

This is the way that I am leaning at this point in spite of the issue that 8FilltheHeart has raised. I finally had time to check back in on the thread at Royal Fireworks Press Homeschool forum and Mr. Thompson had responded again in length. I have asked his permission to reprint his response on our board and will check back tomorrow. He has seen our discussion here and addresses several points in his response. Without directly quoting Mr. Thompson, I can say that the indented paragraphs are not an MS Word formatting issue. Also, the very first essay in AAW, Vol. 1 on p. 4 shows exactly the format that Eight was looking for.

 

For what it is worth, Eight, my dd was more phlegmatic in her response to the issue. She said she saw why it might bother me, but it wasn't a big deal to her. She read Mr. Thompson's first response and said it made sense to her and that she was going to continue working on her own through the AAW books. She finds the explanations as to what is wrong with the student examples to be very helpful. Also, we discuss one of the classic essays in Essay Voyage each week. This seems to be a productive format for her and she has a couple of handbooks if she gets stuck.

 

 

That is interesting, Lisa. Thanks for posting. I pulled out my book, and yes, on pg 4 that one is not indented. :lol: It is the very first page in the book and an example that is not discussed. I am glad to note that there is one example in the book.

[Storm Bay]

I, too, have issues with the MCT materials. While they have transformed our language arts experience, and for that I am grateful, I get tired of the typos, the schizophrenic nature of the instruction, the lack of practice in certain areas, and the leaps the student is frequently required to make to go from instruction to practice (this happens in the writing in particular).

 

Is this the case in all of his books? I've been thinking of having ds do more than just writing with them next year. Of course, he's only doing Paragraph Town.

 

It doesn't show up until chpt 7 in EV.

 

Thanks for the heads up. Dd isn't there yet, but so far she likes Essay Voyage. It's not her only writing instruction as she is doing a Creative Writing class with a certified teacher (group class and she loves it.)

 

Mr. Thompson had responded again in length. I have asked his permission to reprint his response on our board and will check back tomorrow. He has seen our discussion here and addresses several points in his response. Without directly quoting Mr. Thompson, I can say that the indented paragraphs are not an MS Word formatting issue. Also, the very first essay in AAW, Vol. 1 on p. 4 shows exactly the format that Eight was looking for.

.

 

Lisa, I'm looking forward to reading what Mr. Thompson writes if he lets you quote it here.

[Doubleblessings]

:bigear:

[Jen500]

I have read MCT's response and I am still planning on using the upper level series after Voyage. MCTLA is one of our favorites and I've seen progress in my dc's writing that I didn't see with some other programs.

 

And 8, you have already responded that you haven't found a single writing program that completely satisfies your needs....good luck with that. I feel for you, though. I am the same way with science programs and I never rely on just one math program. :)

[Jen500]

MCT said it was ok to post his response here-

 

I see that there is continued discussion at WTM of whether or not the paragraph after a long quotation should be indented. It is a good discussion, worth having. For me, it is the integrity of the paragraph that is important. I believe it is true that the sample papers in my writing texts almost always indent after a long quote, but there is also one, at the very beginning of Academic Writing, Volume One, that does not indent. I do not think we need to feel bound always to indent or not to indent, but we should give attention to the nature of a paragraph. Usually, I think, the text that follows a long quote is either a shift to a new idea or a discussion of the quotation. In either of those cases, that is a different purpose than the preceding paragraph, and I usually indent. If the quotation is clear enough, it can exist in the middle of a long paragraph and not be followed by an indentation--just the same as a short quotation. This is one formatting detail out of hundreds that come from MLA, and it requires a good decision by the writer. Finally, the sample papers that one sees in my writing texts are not presented as publishable, professional perfection; they are simulated student sample papers, similar to the thousands of papers I have received from middle school students and high school students. They represent various learning states. Some of them are quite accomplished, and others not. I hope that this helps to clarify my view of whether to indent after a long quotation. I think, in essence, that there is no difference in this decision between using a long quotation or a short quotation; in either case, you indent if you feel that you have changed purpose or focus, and not if you do not. Quotations do not change paragraphing rules. For a short quotation, you might continue the same paragraph after the quotation, or you might end the paragraph with the short quotation. It is the same with a long quotation. Finally, I have looked through the MLA handbook for guidance about this, and I have examined a number of MLA style websites to see if I could find a principle enunciated about it, but I do not see anything. They simply say that paragraphs should be indented five spaces from the left margin. So this may simply be a matter of style. I looked through a number of my texts, and I agree that almost all examples show an indentation after a long quotation. That is in keeping with my sense that there is usually a shift in purpose. There is some discussion over at WTM about how Microsoft Word formats things, if I understand it correctly, but that is not relevant to my texts in any way because my focus is on the MLA format and on classical principles of academic writing. I should finally add that I do not feel dogmatic about this at all; if a good writer wants not to indent and thus emphasize the continuity of the focus, that is the kind of decision that good writers make. In sum, indenting is a paragraph question, not a quotation question.

[Jen500]

Here are some websites that show sample MLA papers where the paragraph following the quotation is indented. I found it both ways, as I expected to. The principle involved is that indentation is a paragraph issue, not a quotation issue. In my own style, I tend to indent because I see the assessment of a quotation is different in focus from the presentation of a quotation, but I am not bothered at all if someone wants to present this the other way. Best to all, MCT

 

http://www.dianahacker.com/pdfs/hacker-daly-mla.pdf

 

http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/resd...-Orlov-MLA.pdf

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...n/crywolf3.htm

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...resp/wolf2.pdf

 

http://concordia.csp.edu/writingcent...20ed_42910.pdf

 

This one above says, "The text after the quote is not indented unless it begins a new paragraph."

 

I would be happy for you to share anything I write here with our friends at WTM. I think we are all part of an extended learning community, and even when we think about a detail in different ways, we are devoted to the same goals.

[EKS]

Is this the case in all of his books? I've been thinking of having ds do more than just writing with them next year. Of course, he's only doing Paragraph Town.

 

 

Well, what you quoted there were all of my complaints about the MCT materials. The upside is that MCT transformed the language arts experience in our homeschool. My dyslexic son finally understood grammar in a way that is actually sticking. My son who is gifted with languages thrives on MCT whereas he was withering with what we were using before. I love that things are integrated and that using the materials gives us an opportunity to have a conversation about language every day. So I will keep using MCT, but I also use other materials as well.

 

I've found that every resource I've ever used over a long period has something I don't like about it. I've found that the upside of the MCT materials continues to outweigh the downside.

[Capt_Uhura]

I've found that every resource I've ever used over a long period has something I don't like about it. I've found that the upside of the MCT materials continues to outweigh the downside.

 

:iagree: I don't know if I'm picky or what, but there is always something I don't like about a program. :lol:

[1Togo]

Capt,

 

With writing curriculum, it usually comes down to a teaching gap or problem that brings my children to a screeching halt, which usually sends me looking for another resource. That has happened often. However, if the problem is something I can use a teaching point, I forge on.

[swimmermom3]

I see that I am at a disadvantage being on the West Coast.:D

 

This is the link to the initial discussion on the high school board for those that missed it.

 

This is an additional post of Mr. Thompson's:

 

I would be happy for you to share anything I write here with our friends at WTM. I think we are all part of an extended learning community, and even when we think about a detail in different ways, we are devoted to the same goals.

8FilltheHeart, I hope you and some of the others that are sitting on the fence or that have jumped off altogether find value in Mr. Thompson's responses.

[Storm Bay]

Well, what you quoted there were all of my complaints about the MCT materials. The upside is that MCT transformed the language arts experience in our homeschool. My dyslexic son finally understood grammar in a way that is actually sticking. My son who is gifted with languages thrives on MCT whereas he was withering with what we were using before. I love that things are integrated and that using the materials gives us an opportunity to have a conversation about language every day. So I will keep using MCT, but I also use other materials as well.

 

I've found that every resource I've ever used over a long period has something I don't like about it. I've found that the upside of the MCT materials continues to outweigh the downside.

 

Thank you. I have found the same thing as you with any resource we use, particularly for a long time. While R&S was okay for my dd's with some augmentation, it is torture for my ds who is a reluctant scholar. He does perk up when he finds subjects he enjoys, so I am looking for a different language arts and am going to keep MCT at the top of my list, knowing the things I've been reading here and on other posts.

[HappyCamper]

I never thought about the relationship between quotations and paragraph formats in my writing as a student or professional. So many decisions to make as a writer. . . . Terrific thread. My daughter is so enthusiastic about MCT's Island level that my older son even gets interested our grammar discusions. She loves the funny stories, the artwork, etc. that it makes language arts fun for both of us. And the substance of the program really sticks with her. A terrific fit for our family!

[Capt_Uhura]

MCT posted an update on this matter. I wasn't sure if it had been talked about here and I just missed it. It's at the MCT Bulletin Board. I'll copy it here.

 

Indent after a long quotation? The answer from Purdue.

 

There has been lively interest in whether nor not to indent after a long

quotation in an MLA research paper. I saw that Purdue University was mentioned as an authority on the question, so I contacted Purdue and asked their view. I have received a response from the Purdue University English Department Online Writing Lab concerning my inquiry about whether or not to indent after a long quotation. Here is Purdue's full response:

 

While MLA is very specific about whether and how you indent long quotations

themselves (see section 3.7.2 of the 7th ed. handbook), it does not directly

address whether and how to indent paragraphs after long quotations. What we gather, however, is that quotations should always be integrated into the flow of the text in a grammatically and stylistically appropriate way. If the original thought after the long quotation continues the ideas of the present paragraph, then there is no need to indent and start a new paragraph after the quotation. If the original thought after the long quotation formulates a topic sentence (a new idea, a new direction), indeed, starts a new paragraph, then the first sentence after the long quotation would be indented to start that new paragraph. In short, sometimes.

 

The next time we reprint Advanced Academic Writing, I will study the sample

papers in the books carefully and make sure that they reflect this option. Bestto all, MCT

[TracyP]

Thank you Capt! I have so much respect for someone who goes out of their way to respond to customer concerns the way MCT does. WOW!

[8filltheheart]

MCT posted an update on this matter. I wasn't sure if it had been talked about here and I just missed it. It's at the MCT Bulletin Board. I'll copy it here.

 

Indent after a long quotation? The answer from Purdue.

 

There has been lively interest in whether nor not to indent after a long

quotation in an MLA research paper. I saw that Purdue University was mentioned as an authority on the question, so I contacted Purdue and asked their view. I have received a response from the Purdue University English Department Online Writing Lab concerning my inquiry about whether or not to indent after a long quotation. Here is Purdue's full response:

 

While MLA is very specific about whether and how you indent long quotations

themselves (see section 3.7.2 of the 7th ed. handbook), it does not directly

address whether and how to indent paragraphs after long quotations. What we gather, however, is that quotations should always be integrated into the flow of the text in a grammatically and stylistically appropriate way. If the original thought after the long quotation continues the ideas of the present paragraph, then there is no need to indent and start a new paragraph after the quotation. If the original thought after the long quotation formulates a topic sentence (a new idea, a new direction), indeed, starts a new paragraph, then the first sentence after the long quotation would be indented to start that new paragraph. In short, sometimes.

 

The next time we reprint Advanced Academic Writing, I will study the sample

papers in the books carefully and make sure that they reflect this option. Bestto all, MCT

 

While I am glad that he is going to correct the books, it does not change my opinion on the matter. In AAW he goes on at great length about how papers that contain elementary errors are not passing quality and do not reflect academic writing. I completely agree with that contention which is why I am so bothered by the issue. I find it unacceptable that the author of a writing program did not write with appropriate paragraph construction on his own and prior to publication. His errors are unacceptable according to any elementary standard of paragraph cohesion, contention support, and correct transitions.

 

His products are riddled with errors. (beyond this issue in AAW) Whether it is that most users are unable to identify them and therefore don't care or are simply so enamored with his style that they choose to ignore them, I have no idea. I do know that I personally cannot overlook the enormity of the flaws from a teaching standpoint.

Edited April 17, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[cjbeach]

Thank you for this wonderful discussion, especially for those of us just starting our MCT journey.

 

And to those who mentioned adding in other writing programs, please update us with any hits. Like so many others, we have not found a writing program that really works for us yet.

[DarlaS]

Thank you for this wonderful discussion, especially for those of us just starting our MCT journey.

 

And to those who mentioned adding in other writing programs, please update us with any hits. Like so many others, we have not found a writing program that really works for us yet.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I have been looking at AAW to add to AG for my rising 9th grader, and would like to know what to use instead. He has aptitude in writing, but would just rather not do it.

 

Right now I am tentatively planning using IEW + US History based writing lessons (vol 2).

[BlessedMom]

Thank you so much for posting your review here.

[Testimony]

Thank you for putting up this post. I just purchase it at the NJ State Homeschool convention. I did not know what to do.

 

Thank you, Anj for explaining things at the convention.

 

Thank you, Luckymamma for posting that nice pdf. That really helped.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony