ChrissySC Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 No matter how many cute and adorable problems, pretty pictures, home-designed experiments, non-science moms, or convincing talks that support an open and self-discovery means of learning scientific topics and disciplines, we are still responsible for providing an education to our children. We are home-SCHOOLing. The keyword is “schoolâ€. With that said, how do you choose to teach science in the grades between early elementary and high school. Once again, this is irrelevant to the many threads concerning methods or what we, as moms, think. The pure question is where to find content that is age appropriate and can be implemented in a home environment. A secondary consideration is whether or not we will teach for college using college textbooks. As many times we have discussed on this board, we seem to all agree that we want to teach our children to think and to reason, which will not be a factor of using a college level text but instead continues questioning content that exists for the K-12 levels. Adding to the idea that we are teaching our children to teach themselves (to think and to reason), we still need to provide, at the very least, exposure to certain science topics, which is broadly broken down as biology, chemistry, geology, astronomy, and physics. We can be dissatisfied with national or state standards, but the reality is that colleges expect most of these standards to have been met to some degree. So, flying off on every interest-driven study or spending two years studying the birds in the backyard, IMO, will not provide our children with content enriched studies. Once again, we are back to the original idea of “meaty†science. How do we create “meaty†and content rich science? ...continued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Here is my list from that infamous "meaty" science thread with my concerns and questions as related to what we need for the 5th grade: Public School Textbooks 1. Silver Burdett Ginn 2. Prentice Hall Certainly, these texts are designed for a classroom. They would require each of us to rework the presentation to some degree. I do believe that we would all want more hands-on activities. I worry about being bored with just the reading, workbook, and testing. Additionally, I am concerned about experimentation. Science is best discovered – which means experimenting – which goes to one of the original statements that we want to teach our children to think and to reason as well as enjoy the subject matter. How could you work with the content? Do you use the workbooks? Are there lab books to accompany? Apologia, the “day” series For many, the chatty style and lap-book/note-booking is well fitted to their learning style. Yet, there are quite a few books, which I believe were intended to be spread over six years. What are your experiences with using the series? I can see where a good reader would do fine with these texts, especially the Zoology. I do not like starting something in the middle when the intent is seemingly to complete them all. How long do you think it would take to finish a book? When would you hand this to your student to read independently? Do you read aloud? What is your experience with content retention? Can you provide an example of your days with a section or chapter? I would not rule this out as an option. The information and material is very rich, even if not considered “meaty” in the traditional high school experience. I am concerned with the notebook materials, and I wonder how you like the lap-book materials for science? Can the lap-booking contents be “note booked”? Do you add to the studies? What do you add or change? What do you wish was different? Rainbow Science I admit to being impressed by this program. I wish that the Colors series were out. I suppose a two-year early start with the Rainbow could work, but it is awful expensive. The price 250ish for the first year, and an additional 150ish for the second year, would make a 2-year science study $400. How well are the lessons and plans laid out for implementation? Did you find the material and contents worth the cost? What do you wish for change or enhancement? Do you do something different with the program than how it was designed? Have you needed to anything? BJU I think this hard to pick up in the middle. The topics are not necessarily reviewed, but continue. Take a look at the table of contents. You will see exactly what concerns me about making a switch now. Perhaps a start in the fourth grade with a few TOPS or workbooks could make up the difference, but we chose RSO and are at the end of the level one set. We all know that public-school science is the forgotten subject. How many times do our dc need to measure rain and plant a bean so that the teachers can claim the subject taught? OK, maybe this is a little bit of a simplified implication, but you understand the point nonetheless. How to start BJU in the middle of something certainly intended, yet again, to be started in the beginning? Wait until 7th grade? I still have two years! I love BJU for high school. I wish I had not deviated with the second child, but that is in the past. I like the workbooks, quizzes, tests, labs, et cetera. It is quite easy to wonder off on interest-driven topics and return to the text study without any problems. I like the development and depth of focus on the material. It is completely age appropriate. I do not like that it promotes a young earth, which in most instances is not interfering and can be overlooked. I do not like that the concepts of evolution or natural selection are passed over. ABeka Similar in style to BJU, this seems to be more geared for use in the home. I believe BJU to be a richer choice, but the price of Abeka would make it appealing to many. Content is presented with a heavy Christian and young-earth support. Mr. Q – Life Science Perhaps for early elementary this would be suitable, but there is something that I do not like about this book. Perhaps it is that I need to download all of it and print. J I am thinking that I do not like the presentation of the information. I feel that the conversational tone puts me off and keeps me from liking this text. I think that I would choose this as a supplement versus a spine. I will be reading more of it in the future, but at this moment … How do you like the tone and style? Could state exactly what you find appealing about using this subject study material other than that it is free? How do you find the experiments? Do you do one a lesson? Do you do one a week? What other things do you find that you are doing to cement the basic ideas of the subject matter? How is vocabulary presented? How do you test reading comprehension? Do you read entirely orally or assign reading? Plato Science I liked the sample lesson. Correct me if I am wrong. I saw only 12 lessons for the life sciences. Do they only provide digital lessons? I love the computer as much as any IT individual in my field, but learning should not be limited to my computer. Where is the hands-on? Where are the experiments? Is this only a supplement to a life science study? What did I miss? Elemental Science Biology/ Life Science is available for the grammar stage, but once again, nothing for the logic stage. I find it too remedial at this point. How appropriate is it for a 5th grade student? I found it remedial for even 4th. L I love the idea of Biology for elemental science, but it is not age appropriate for us. I like that the lessons are laid out. I see experiments, which I love for cementing an idea and experiencing science. I am grateful for some type of assessment (this is a fact of life, no argument or dissension). Vocabulary is clear and presented. I am concerned about the narration. In the next level, I hope to see outlining, terminology, comprehension questions, thought-provoking applications of the subject matter, research study for additional assignments, et cetera. I want it “moved” from grammar stage, and clearly made logic stage. This will not be something we will be able to use with the second child, but maybe by the time the third is grown. Ring of Fire These are more or less topical materials versus a study for the year. The materials are for earth science and geological studies. When you consider what you need for a semester or a year, the cost is significant. Three units will complete a semester study according to the website. Six units of study will complete a year of science. Let’s do the math. Six units at $50ish each is $300. Yes, we will probably spend that much on science by the time we visit the store for needed experiment materials, but this is for the cd textbook and dvd. You need to add 10 dollars for a printed textbook, which brings is to almost $370 for the year not including the extras, without materials for the activities included. Easy Classical for Science Bundles are not available for science. I did look closely at the site, but I found that I would lean towards Sonlight or Beautiful Feet’s History of Science before attempting to go this way with a transitioning grammar-to-logic student. The basic study is animals, plants and the human body. Again, I found Apologia’s zoology listed. A nature journal is seems to be a strong concept. This is something from CM that I implement. The putting of hands and self-discovery of nature cannot be replaced with a book. I would rather my fifth grader dissect an eye versus looking at a model. I think there are too many costly kits for things that can be purchased from the Home Depot or hobby store. My experience with the body models, long ago, was less than stimulating. We enjoyed the cut-out My Body book much better. We watched our skeleton and body systems form as we cut and colored. A far better exchange for our $10. ... continued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Sonlight I love the literature selections. I like the focus, for the most part. I would like to see more study on certain topics. For example, Science 1 needed something with plants and animals. If following the WTM style of study, we need some life science topics. I see nothing wrong with using additional topics because ancient history study would benefit from knowledge of geology, weather, and astronomy. Look at the Egyptians, and we can all understand why weather and astronomy are good supporting studies for history. As I am specifically looking to enrich our second study of ancient history, I found I wished for more in Science 5, but I am not ruling it out. I could very easily use many of the lessons to fill health, a part of physical education, study. I appreciate that Sonlight has literature selections, activity sheets, and experiments (with a dvd). I like it for all of these reasons. I only have one wish … expand the topics. Cost is $140ish. A plus about using this program is that you gear the body study towards girls or boys. I found this very, very likable. Let’s not forget the experiments, history of medicine, or the survival skills study. The only extra that is suggested is the Lyrical Life Science. How have you found the later elementary levels? What did you do to add to the study of biology? physics? or other? I could not find a sample of the activity sheets. How do you like them? Did you do additional note-booking or lap-booking activities with your study? Overall did you find the student retained the information? Could you provide an example of a lesson including your changes or enhancements? Beautiful Feet, History of Science My one disappointment – this is the only study of science that they offer. I tend to lean towards wanting to mix Sonlight and Beautiful Feet. Once again, the lessons are laid out, experiments included, writing and research are components too, and a timeline devoted to history. Cost is $150ish, not including the materials needed for experiments. I like the expanded topical study. I love the selections used for reading. The lesson plans are there too! How do you like them? Did you do additional note-booking or lap-booking activities with your study? Overall did you find the student retained the information? Could you provide an example of a lesson including your changes or enhancements? REAL Science 4 Kids Wow, $90 – seems to be a good deal for Level 1 Biology. Yet … It appears that you would need the bundle to complete a year’s worth of science. This brings the cost to $220ish, not including supplies for experiments. If we resolve to accept that we will spend 300 dollars or more on science, I suppose this is not terrible. We exclude the Kogs for enhancement for Level 1 because they are only available for Chemistry, otherwise, we would need to add quite a bit to the purchase price. The program is still being developed. Considering that the Level 1 suggestion is 4th through 6th grade, and that you would need to purchase all of the subjects for a year, is this the science program? I like the student text examples. The tone of the book is similar to RSO and Apologia as examples of the conversational writing method. I like that there is a lab book. I like that the results and conclusions are recordable inside the book. Terms are reviewed as well. The teacher’s manual leaves room for notes, and appears to be needed based on the activities I viewed on sample pages. Considering all of the above, this is not bad if you remember that you need all of a level for a science year. J I liked it. RSO – Real Science Odyssey I love the level one series. It is with great disappointment that they have not developed a level two series. This is certainly the way to do early elementary science - completely hands-on with resource reading. We developed really nice notebooks from drawings, experiment pages, and listing all of our consulted resources. I would not have chosen a different program for K-4, but I would maybe have added some Sonlight or the RS4K subject that pertained to our study in hindsight. Probably, I would have added RS4K. Hindsight, you know how that is. Noeo I like Noeo too. It is very similar to RSO. I suppose that I flipped a mental coin before purchasing RSO. J If we look at the level 2 series and consider it for our studies, I would be considering Biology. The cost for the bundle at present is $135ish – normally 168ish. I found level 2 not to meet my standards. An example of a lesson was explained. Take reading notes and/or illustrate what you read. This should be more fitting to logic stage and involve outlining if we are documenting reading selections. We have created illustrations from K-4. Are we going to ask a 5th grader to illustrate and narrate another year? I suppose I found this not reaching a skill level that I expected. The content was decent, but not up to standards that I expect for many of our classical learners. You could easily combine Noeo level one and two for earlier elementary studies. The Story of Science Well, this cannot survive alone, but as enrichment can it be a benefit? There are many discussions on the bias content. I look at it as reading content and not a curriculum choice. How did you use this text? Did you read aloud? Did you assign reading? I can see the benefit to using with ancient history. This book covers astronomy, physics, and chemistry from Mesopotamia to the Middle Ages. The accompanying TQG is probably not relevant for our purpose, but I may purchase because of the cross-subject links and activities. There are student worksheets, which is always a plus, but this seems to be designed for a classroom use. Have you found this difficult in the home setting? What changes did you make? Do you have examples specific to the bias content as related to Christians or individual belief systems? What about science itself? Do you find content that is seriously incorrect and false? Thank you for reading! Thank you in advance for all of your help! Did I miss a program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 I am right there with you Wendy. I looked at Nebel's too, but it is geared for the K-2. I did not have any question of its worth! I think it is awesome, but is it relevant for 5th? Probably not. :( And yes, I agree - choppy mishmash of this and that! What do we put together for the 4-6 range or even worse 7 and 8 that will be appropriate? Btw- My brain hurts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 This is why I love the way science is laid out in the WTM, it introduces science in a relevant way to the early elementary child, causes them to think and dig a bit deeper in the middle years and then prepares them for the rigors of college level science in high school. To me, WTM style science is plenty meaty at the appropriate levels. PS-Elemental Science is coming out with our first logic stage program, Biology for the Logic Stage, this March :). Best of luck in determining what fits best for your family! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I would be curious to hear your opinions on GEMS science guides. Granted, they are like unit studies and it would take several guides to pull together a whole year of science, but have you had a chance to review them for logic stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Nebel also has "Elementary Science Education," the grades 3-5 continuation of BFSU. http://outskirtspress.com/webpage.php?isbn=9781432762360 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristinannie Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I completely get where you are coming from. I am a science person (as is my DH) and I want my kids to get real, meaty science. I don't want them to hit HS Chemistry and have a panic attack! I was planning on using RSO or NOEO for K-4 so I am glad that you agree that they are worthy of that. I am not sure what I will do after that, but would love to hear what you come up with. We are probably going to enroll with Kolbe Academy and they use Harcourt science. I have talked to their science advisor and they chose it because it is real science. It was developed for the classroom, but they sell a syllabus made for HSers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy_kid_wrangler04 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Apologia, the “day” series For many, the chatty style and lap-book/note-booking is well fitted to their learning style. Yet, there are quite a few books, which I believe were intended to be spread over six years. What are your experiences with using the series? I can see where a good reader would do fine with these texts, especially the Zoology. I do not like starting something in the middle when the intent is seemingly to complete them all. How long do you think it would take to finish a book? When would you hand this to your student to read independently? Do you read aloud? What is your experience with content retention? Can you provide an example of your days with a section or chapter? I would not rule this out as an option. The information and material is very rich, even if not considered “meaty” in the traditional high school experience. I am concerned with the notebook materials, and I wonder how you like the lap-book materials for science? Can the lap-booking contents be “note booked”? Do you add to the studies? What do you add or change? What do you wish was different? BJU I think this hard to pick up in the middle. The topics are not necessarily reviewed, but continue. Take a look at the table of contents. You will see exactly what concerns me about making a switch now. Perhaps a start in the fourth grade with a few TOPS or workbooks could make up the difference, but we chose RSO and are at the end of the level one set. We all know that public-school science is the forgotten subject. How many times do our dc need to measure rain and plant a bean so that the teachers can claim the subject taught? OK, maybe this is a little bit of a simplified implication, but you understand the point nonetheless. How to start BJU in the middle of something certainly intended, yet again, to be started in the beginning? Wait until 7th grade? I still have two years! I love BJU for high school. I wish I had not deviated with the second child, but that is in the past. I like the workbooks, quizzes, tests, labs, et cetera. It is quite easy to wonder off on interest-driven topics and return to the text study without any problems. I like the development and depth of focus on the material. It is completely age appropriate. I do not like that it promotes a young earth, which in most instances is not interfering and can be overlooked. I do not like that the concepts of evolution or natural selection are passed over. We started with a combination of Abeka and BJU... My kids HATED, DREADED science. The experiments are few and far between and generally call for specialty stuff you can not get in my extremely rural area. We switched to Apologia and my dd's LOVED it. Right now because of Apologia my kids favorite subject is science :D Dd's LOVED the experiments and really retained alot from them. That being said, my kids love hands on anyways. Apologia worked so well for them at the moment we are planning on sticking with them. My now 3rd grader generally does 2 books a year. When we started we thought you did 1 book a year and I really struggled to keep going at a slow pace with Astronomy. They enjoyed it but are enjoying it much better doing 2 books a year. Next year I think she might do 3. She is getting the "itch" that her sister had (next paragraph :)) with Science. She asks "Can I do more science" all the time. The activites are fun and easy for a homeschooler to do. Also, they are easy to "change" up a bit and see how the results change (they LOVE coming up with different ways of doing experiments) Dd12 did all 5 books the end of 5th grade-6th grade (with tremendous retention-- It was about a 13-14 month timespan. She enjoyed them so much she still talks about what she learned. (this was before the Anatomy came out, she did that this year with Apologia GS) That does sound like alot but she loved these books so much she just wanted to keep going. She did some on her own out of "school hours". One of the joys of being a homeschooler ;) She did all the experiments (well, we are doing all of them with all kids) and like I said before would do them how they are stated, then change something and get the different result and we would discuss why the change made such a big or small (whatever it did) difference. It really made for great discussions and I could clearly tell they were truly learning :hurray: It really upsets me that I wasted 2 years of near tears in Abeka/BJU mix. I was killing my kids love of science because I wanted a "good" curriculum. I found the good curriculum that works for us! I am so happy we did this. Now we are switching to MFW and they have some science included (a mix of Gods design and Apologia) and we are excited about that because I have seen the Gods Design series and it is very similar to Apologia and we will be able to do it in the same way. We will continue with Apologia as well. Like I said, my kids hunger for more science-- they can not get enough! Its pretty awesome compared to where they were 2 years ago. A caution- the reason I started looking in the first place was because the sheer cost of BJU in the upper grades (well, to be able to do the experiments as you should) was getting extremely expensive. So if cost is a factor then look at higher levels to see what cost will be included down the road for experimentation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy_kid_wrangler04 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Going back to some of your qustions I missed about Apologia. The very first day of each lesson I just have my dd's (ds's are to young yet) read through the lesson. That would get them familiar with what they would be studying. Then I would seperate the lesson up by section (usually about a week) then we would start through. I read aloud sometimes, sometimes they do then we would do any experiments. I let the kids decide how to do their lapbook/notebooks. Oldest dd like making her own, so she did. Everyday she would make a summary about what she learned, I would go over vocaulary with her. Then she would do any additional notebook activities that was in the book or any that she thought up. Dd now in 3rd liked the pre-made notebooks up until now. She just started a new book. This time she asked if she could make her own so she is. This is really bringing out some creativity in my kids that I have not seen before :thumbup1: After our lesson during "school time" oldest dd would LOVE to do additional research. When she was doing the botany book she was ALWAYS outside with magnifying glasses, notebooks, everything identifing every tree, plant, weed in our yard :lol: Lord help me during the insects chapter. She had more pet bugs than I care to remember :glare: :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) My big problem with elementary science is that a kid cannot do real science until a he can do the math involved in the science. I don't see a real benefit to trying to dumb-down science to the elementary level. Once the math is removed from science, it is just experiences (not experiments), history, and memorization. What I aim for in elementary education is discovery, passion and joy. I want my kids make into college with a zeal for learning and a wealth of experiences and an ability to ask questions and know how to answer those with experimentation. I read lots of science to my kids when they are young. We spend lots of time exploring nature, museums, libraries, planetariums and zoos. I spend most of my science budget on equipment and experiment kits. When they have finished Alg I, there is plenty of time for them to learn real science before they head off to college. Here are a couple of paragraphs from an article describing the type of science education I strive toward in the elementary years. Harlan (1988) characterizes science as the human desire to understand the world and how it is organized. It is curiosity and the desire to understand that motivate individuals to seek knowledge. Thus, scientific genius does not develop from prescribed lessons with defined objectives; it occurs when curiosity and passion for discovery are cultivated.and further down First, the affective environment must be "risk-free" so that children have the opportunity to explore, experiment and solve problems without the fear of failure. Play creates a natural risk-free environment. Opportunities for free-play with science materials promote a child's curiosity and willingness to consider varying options (Henniger, 1988). Wassermann (1992) notes that In play, there is no fear of failure, because there is no failure. Failure occurs when children have not measured up to another's preconceived notion of what they should have done. No standards of right and wrong are articulated in play, and the absence of such standards is what allows for innovation. (p. 135) Second, the affective environment is enjoyable. As Feynman noted, he "enjoyed" playing with physics problems. Affective environments that nurture joy allow children to create, invent and pursue solutions. Third, the affective environment eliminates the stress of time constraints. Children must be able to play freely with science materials, without a strict time frame in which to finish, complete or draw conclusions. The time frame must be adequate so that children feel the freedom to explore different solutions or create multiple scenarios. Fourth, the affective environment provides choice, which is an expression of the affect interest, and is an integral part of the "desire to know." Children will make their own discoveries during free-play with their chosen science materials and they will construct their own knowledge of a phenomenon. Also, through choice, children feel ownership of the process, rather than feeling coerced or obliged to explore (Einstein, 1954). Edited February 5, 2011 by Karen in CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwilliams Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 My answer to this dilemma is elemental science as our program which I have bought but not started. We are 3rd grade this year and have always done alot of science at our house. We go to every science event around plus science museum programs frequently. I feel like we can do this program which will be structured but not take too much time. Then we can feel free to do our own thing also. The topic is the same earth science but I want to throw in reading Weather detectives and more geography in an informal fun way. My goal for science is not to teach all the concepts but to teach my son to think scientifically and understand an inquiry based approach to solving problems along with maintaining the idea that science is really cool and fun.....not alot of work like grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybear Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 What I aim for in elementary education is discovery, passion and joy. I want my kids make into college with a zeal for learning and a wealth of experiences and an ability to ask questions and know how to answer those with experimentation. :iagree: I also think one can use a science curriculum in the same manner, depending on how you use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I am right there with you Wendy. I looked at Nebel's too, but it is geared for the K-2. I did not have any question of its worth! I think it is awesome, but is it relevant for 5th? Probably not. :( And yes, I agree - choppy mishmash of this and that! What do we put together for the 4-6 range or even worse 7 and 8 that will be appropriate? Btw- My brain hurts! Even though it is geared at K-2, Nebel's is easily adaptable to older students. I am using it with a 2nd grader and a 4th grader. When we finish this, we'll move on to the next in his series, which is out now and is to be followed later this year by another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 As someone already stated he has a book for grades 3-5. He also has a third book (I assume middle school level) that will possibly be out by June (per what he said on his Yahoo page). I'm actually planning to use the K-2 book with my son who will be in fourth. I have to beef it way up, but I still can use the topics as a guide. I am trying to make it work for a 1st grader and a 4th grader to at least help me cut down a little on having to keep up with too many different topics. To give an example of what I will do... The first topic talks about classifying things. At the K-2 level that is pretty basic. It is about the concept of organizing things/information. That's too basic for my 9 year old. But I have a book about Darwin with a couple of hands on projects related to taxonomy that are much meatier. It's the same idea, but more specific. So I'm basically only using the book as a guide in terms of which topics to cover next. Some of the suggestions and activities will work with both of my kids (I didn't cover every topic listed with my 9 year old). I love the way the author ties things together in what feels like some sort of orderly fashion. To me he fills the science void of TWTM. I love TWTM and it has really helped me with my little picture and big picture except I think the science suggestions are too vague and too dry. I have the encyclopedias. They are nice to look at, but they are choppy. Not to mention I severely dislike books with splashes of text all over the page. That drives me bonkers. So I have no desire to use them as a spine. They don't do it as a spine for me either in History, but then there is SOTW which works very well. I am only interested in secular programs so I've never taken a look at many on the list. :iagree: I too use BFSU as a guide to what to teach. My daughter at 7 1/2 still loves many of the Let's Read and Find Out titles, while I'm beefing it up with the Kingfisher Science Encyclopedia for my almost 10 year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I don't want them to hit HS Chemistry and have a panic attack! This is probably a stupid question, but can you give some examples of things learned in high school chemistry (or other science fields) that would give a child a panic attack if not exposed to them earlier? Every time these science topics come up, moms of graduated students have said that high school and college texts both assume no prior science knowledge. I know I didn't have any "meaty science" until high school, and chemistry didn't give me a panic attack at all - high school or college level (ok, the labs with chemicals and bunsen burners freaked me out, but that's because I don't like fire and don't like working with chemicals that could potentially be dangerous... I preferred the math aspect of chem!). I know in biology, we started with the very basics - things like the parts of a cell and all that. So I'm just curious what types of things you want your kids to understand before they hit high school science, and why must they be hit before 7th/8th grade? :lurk5: I just have a first grader, so I have a LONG time to think about this. :D Just wanting to get all sides of this issue so I can determine my own opinion. I'm still leaning toward mostly interest-led in the elementary years, and then hitting science more formally in the middle school years (possibly something like Rainbow Science). We're a computer/engineering family, so science is high priority for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upstatemamma Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 My oldest is still a little guy - six - and so we are not at that level yet. But I wanted to say that we are using the Pre-level Real Science 4 Kids and we like it. I intend to buy the later years as mine gets older. I also wanted to point out that you can actually get it pretty cheap. The text books are all available on the website for free. You can't download them but you can look through them and read them. Here's the link for Chemistry Level 1 - http://www.flipbookserver.com/scripts/showbook.aspx?ID=10002869_129475 - And if you buy the downloadable version of the lab book and teacher's guide they are only $15 a piece. I like the Kogs for that level and I emailed and asked and they plan to have ones for Bio and Physics available for next "school" year. That does, of course, make it more expensive. They are also $15 per book in the downloadable format. To me it is not too much I guess because I have four kids and if I use it for all four than it is way less. :) As for the curriculum itself I really like it for my son. He enjoys it. It is interesting. The experiments are fun. Plus, you can do a lot to add to it with getting books on the same subjects and things like that. Admittedly, I know very little as this is my first kiddo and I've only been homeschooling for two years but I figured more opinions cannot hurt. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 My big problem with elementary science is that a kid cannot do real science until a he can do the math involved in the science. I don't see a real benefit to trying to dumb-down science to the elementary level. Once the math is removed from science, it is just experiences (not experiments), history, and memorization. Excuse me if I disagree. There is hardly ANY mathematics involved in biology. To understand how organisms work, how cells work, how animals and plants are classified requires no math. On an elementary level, a child can learn about life cycles, the function of the body, the relationship between anatomy and the behavior and environment of an animal or plant. None of this requires dumbing down. There is very little math in chemistry. Understanding the structure of an atom and the nature of bonds requires counting to... maybe five and basic addition. Properties of classes of substances can be explored. I agree that a thorough understanding of physics requires math; however, a lot can be understood conceptually. It is actually very challenging to teach conceptual physics well without math, much harder for the teacher than a math based course, but there is a lot that goes beyond memorization. A younger student can learn about Newton's laws, about free fall, about collisions and potential energy completely without math. He can understand how charged particles interact, that current is the motion of electrons through a metal, about heat, melting and evaporation... Other great sciences which involve hardly any math are geology and astronomy. There is plenty of science to fill the few years until the student has higher math available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) No matter how many cute and adorable problems, pretty pictures, home-designed experiments, non-science moms, or convincing talks that support an open and self-discovery means of learning scientific topics and disciplines, we are still responsible for providing an education to our children. We are home-SCHOOLing. The keyword is “school”. With that said, how do you choose to teach science in the grades between early elementary and high school. Once again, this is irrelevant to the many threads concerning methods or what we, as moms, think. The pure question is where to find content that is age appropriate and can be implemented in a home environment. A secondary consideration is whether or not we will teach for college using college textbooks. As many times we have discussed on this board, we seem to all agree that we want to teach our children to think and to reason, which will not be a factor of using a college level text but instead continues questioning content that exists for the K-12 levels. Adding to the idea that we are teaching our children to teach themselves (to think and to reason), we still need to provide, at the very least, exposure to certain science topics, which is broadly broken down as biology, chemistry, geology, astronomy, and physics. We can be dissatisfied with national or state standards, but the reality is that colleges expect most of these standards to have been met to some degree. So, flying off on every interest-driven study or spending two years studying the birds in the backyard, IMO, will not provide our children with content enriched studies. Once again, we are back to the original idea of “meaty” science. How do we create “meaty” and content rich science? I am confused by your post. If you are asserting that you believe you personally need a pre-packaged program b/c you believe you cannot provide your children with "content enriched studies" w/o one, I sincerely hope that someone is able to assist you in finding one that helps you meet your and your children's needs. If, however, you are asserting that "content enriched studies" are only achievable with pre-packed programs and that interest driven science studies cannot be their equal, then I strongly disagree. It may be your opinion, which you are entitled to, but evidence exists to the contrary. Interest-driven science isn't "studying birds in your backyard for 2 yrs." I know I have posted about my budding ornithologist and her bird studies. She read numerous books on birds (the physics of their flight, their migration patterns, how they are classified, the differences in how they construct nests and care for their young, etc). The knowledge she garnered fanned a passion. She is quite a bird watcher. Is it all she did for 2 yrs? Absolutely not. It is all she did for science for school for a few months and now she spends hrs birding on her own. I don't really know if she hadn't had the freedom to explore the topic in depth if ornithology would still be an avid pursuit. Reading whole books on topics takes students to a depth in materials that are simply not achievable via textbooks. Our family's approach means that from 3rd grade all the way to 7th or 8th they are constantly reading whole books on all varieties of science topics, everything from electricity to insects to astronomy. It does not mean they don't cover science basics. It simply means that they are not confined to the content determined by textbook publishers. If the approach does not meet your family's needs, you absolutely need to find a method that will allow you to teach your children science. But, do not posit your position as proof that it is not "SCHOOL" or meaty simply b/c it does not fall in line with your definition of science instruction. FWIW......I have been teaching science this way for 17+ yrs. I think my sr in chemical engineering ds, my wanting to major in chemistry dd, and my wanting to be an astrophysicist ds would pretty much disagree w/the assumption that not using pre-fab science programs meant that they weren't learning science in elementary/middle school. Quite the opposite. Edited February 6, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Jo Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 My goal for lower grades is to encourage observation, attention to detail, exploration, a love for nature, and a love of learning. I want them to think scientifically (what I missed in my education). I'll worry about high-school later (at which point I'll try to prepare them for college / career). In elementary/middle school I would like to do these things: 1) CM-style nature observation. The Outdoor Hour Challenge is currently my #1 resource. 2) Use living science texts and science biographies, Ambleside has ideas for this. I'd also include science shows in this section. 3) Hands-on exploration and discovery, I think Nebel's books will give me the framework here. 4) Accelerate math. We school math year round, so I think this is doable; especially since I want to use LoF for upper grades. (But I won't do this at the cost of understanding.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thowell Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I am confused by your post. If you are asserting that you believe you personally need a pre-packaged program b/c you believe you cannot provide your children with "content enriched studies" w/o one, I sincerely hope that someone is able to assist you in finding one that helps you meet your and your children's needs. If, however, you are asserting that "content enriched studies" are only achievable with pre-packed programs and that interest driven science studies cannot be their equal, then I strongly disagree. It may be your opinion, which you are entitled to, but evidence exists to the contrary. Interest-driven science isn't "studying birds in your backyard for 2 yrs." I know I have posted about my budding ornithologist and her bird studies. She read numerous books on birds (the physics of their flight, their migration patterns, how they are classified, the differences in how they construct nests and care for their young, etc). The knowledge she garnered fanned a passion. She is quite a bird watcher. Is it all she did for 2 yrs? Absolutely not. It is all she did for science for school for a few months and now she spends hrs birding on her own. I don't really know if she hadn't had the freedom to explore the topic in depth if ornithology would still be an avid pursuit. Reading whole books on topics takes students to a depth in materials that are simply not achievable via textbooks. Our family's approach means that from 3rd grade all the way to 7th or 8th they are constantly reading whole books on all varieties of science topics, everything from electricity to insects to astronomy. It does not mean they don't cover science basics. It simply means that they are not confined to the content determined by textbook publishers. If the approach does not meet your family's needs, you absolutely need to find a method that will allow you to teach your children science. But, do not posit your position as proof that it is not "SCHOOL" or meaty simply b/c it does not fall in line with your definition of science instruction. FWIW......I have been teaching science this way for 17+ yrs. I think my sr in chemical engineering ds, my wanting to major in chemistry dd, and my wanting to be an astrophysicist ds would pretty much disagree w/the assumption that not using pre-fab science programs meant that they weren't learning science in elementary/middle school. Quite the opposite. Beautifully said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Excuse me if I disagree.There is hardly ANY mathematics involved in biology. To understand how organisms work, how cells work, how animals and plants are classified requires no math. On an elementary level, a child can learn about life cycles, the function of the body, the relationship between anatomy and the behavior and environment of an animal or plant. None of this requires dumbing down. ...... Other great sciences which involve hardly any math are geology and astronomy. There is plenty of science to fill the few years until the student has higher math available. I don't think we disagree at all. We study lots of biology. We learn about classification. We explore geology and archeology. We learn the periodic table and demonstrate basic chemical reactions. But again, these are experiences, memorization and history. I did not intend to imply that there is no science before math, but that parents need to understand that working through science books isn't the same thing as doing science. You are not going to buy a "meaty" science program for elementary school that will prepare your kids for college. Childhood is short. Kids love to explore the world around them. I think that kids are better served with our science energy by letting them follow their interest and helping to foster that natural curiosity. Lets follow of story of a child that likes to build dams in the street. My dd loves the rain and loves to try to dam up the water flowing down the side of our street. After a few hours, she's successful and floods the street. The next week we take a walk in our favorite park and watch a beaver building a dam. We follow that up by a trip to the library to read about hydroelectric dams, beavers and lakes. Later that week, she converts her generator from a science kit to use a paddle wheel. We add the Hoover dam to our list of places to visit on our summer trips. We follow our storm drain to a little stream, to a bigger stream. We learn the word confluence. We visit the museum of science and learn that our little storm drain leads eventually to the Colorado River. We watch a movie about the building of dams on the Colorado River. We visit some lovely slot canyons that were saved by stopping a proposed dam. We go river rafting with a group from the museum to learn about the geology of the area. We also visit some thermal pools and learn about the volcanoes. She researches the dams being built on the Yangtze river. She also follows her reading about beavers into an interest in the history of the fur trade in the area and on to French explorers. Somewhere in there we also touched on pollution, water rights, sedimentation, evaporation and energy conservation. If we had learned about beavers or hydroelectric dams in XYZ science program how much of that would have been included? We did study biology and not use much math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 No matter how many cute and adorable problems, pretty pictures, home-designed experiments, non-science moms, or convincing talks that support an open and self-discovery means of learning scientific topics and disciplines, we are still responsible for providing an education to our children. We are home-SCHOOLing. The keyword is “schoolâ€. If the implication of this is that discovery and experience somehow aren't meaty, then I don't agree at all. To me, a "meaty" science program would absolutely have to have both open ended discussion and discovery as well as handed down content. It would walk a line between the sort of two year long study of birds in the backyard that you dismiss out of hand and guiding kids through the knowledge that scientists have already accumulated. I sometimes get frustrated with the whole "let's just take a nature walk and say we did science" attitude but I would say it has to be a balance - just memorizing science facts isn't "meaty" science either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I've used Apologia, Sonlight, and NOEO, so I'll comment on those... Apologia, the “day†series For many, the chatty style and lap-book/note-booking is well fitted to their learning style. Yet, there are quite a few books, which I believe were intended to be spread over six years. What are your experiences with using the series? I can see where a good reader would do fine with these texts, especially the Zoology. I do not like starting something in the middle when the intent is seemingly to complete them all. How long do you think it would take to finish a book? When would you hand this to your student to read independently? Do you read aloud? What is your experience with content retention? Can you provide an example of your days with a section or chapter? I would not rule this out as an option. The information and material is very rich, even if not considered “meaty†in the traditional high school experience. I am concerned with the notebook materials, and I wonder how you like the lap-book materials for science? Can the lap-booking contents be “note booked� Do you add to the studies? What do you add or change? What do you wish was different? I did Astronomy as a read-aloud with both kids. Fun activities, good stuff to learn, but spending a year on this was too much. I wouldn't plan on more than half a year for any of the books. My 6th grader chose to do Botany and Anatomy this year. I also ordered the notebook for Botany. That had some fun pages, and she enjoyed it for a time, but after awhile she mainly did the review questions and the puzzles and skipped the cut-out & assemble lapbook type activities. (I let her choose what to do--she has 30 minutes for science each day and can read, notebook, do experiments etc..., her choice). She chose not to get the extra notebook for Anatomy. So I asked her to notebook at the end of each chapter. She can write, draw, etc..., her choice. She also does the experiments/activities that appeal to her. She learned a lot from Botany and really enjoyed that book, and I think the same will be true for Anatomy. Sonlight I love the literature selections. I like the focus, for the most part. I would like to see more study on certain topics. For example, Science 1 needed something with plants and animals. If following the WTM style of study, we need some life science topics. I see nothing wrong with using additional topics because ancient history study would benefit from knowledge of geology, weather, and astronomy. Look at the Egyptians, and we can all understand why weather and astronomy are good supporting studies for history. As I am specifically looking to enrich our second study of ancient history, I found I wished for more in Science 5, but I am not ruling it out. I could very easily use many of the lessons to fill health, a part of physical education, study. I appreciate that Sonlight has literature selections, activity sheets, and experiments (with a dvd). I like it for all of these reasons. I only have one wish … expand the topics. Cost is $140ish. A plus about using this program is that you gear the body study towards girls or boys. I found this very, very likable. Let’s not forget the experiments, history of medicine, or the survival skills study. The only extra that is suggested is the Lyrical Life Science. How have you found the later elementary levels? What did you do to add to the study of biology? physics? or other? I could not find a sample of the activity sheets. How do you like them? Did you do additional note-booking or lap-booking activities with your study? Overall did you find the student retained the information? Could you provide an example of a lesson including your changes or enhancements? I used science K-2 with my kids (also SL 5, I'll comment on that in a bit). Now, this was awhile ago, so some books may have changed. SL science relies heavily on Usborne books, especially the kind that tends to have small pictures and blurbs. Those are not very fun as read-alouds, for me or for my kids. However, the kids did enjoy looking through them on their own. I didn't use the worksheets at this age level, I was looking mainly for exposure and enjoyment, and my kids were not writing enough yet to make them worthwhile to me. Sonlight activities/experiments don't usually match the reading, so that's a consideration. The Discover and Do DVD's are fun, I mainly used them for sick days, my kids enjoyed them and it let me rest! After doing K-2, I came away feeling like we'd mainly studied the same things for 3 years--I don't know if enough has changed so that it won't feel like that now. They were very eclectic--a unit on this, a unit on that--so it felt repetitive. For my daughter's 5th grade year, I let her choose her books, and she chose most of SL 5. She had a great science year and really enjoyed almost all of the books. Food and Nutrition was too dry for her and I think probably too much new vocabulary, so she didn't finish that one. Love the History of Medicine book (there are others in that series, I keep meaning to check into them)...I can't think of any books she really didn't enjoy in this package. The DNA book upset her a few times though! There are a few controversial issues in that one, and I held off on having her read that until closer to the end of the year because I knew some of it would bother her. We didn't do the worksheets--I had her notebook similar to what she's doing this year in Apologia, and that has worked well for us. Noeo I like Noeo too. It is very similar to RSO. I suppose that I flipped a mental coin before purchasing RSO. J If we look at the level 2 series and consider it for our studies, I would be considering Biology. The cost for the bundle at present is $135ish – normally 168ish. I found level 2 not to meet my standards. An example of a lesson was explained. Take reading notes and/or illustrate what you read. This should be more fitting to logic stage and involve outlining if we are documenting reading selections. We have created illustrations from K-4. Are we going to ask a 5th grader to illustrate and narrate another year? I suppose I found this not reaching a skill level that I expected. The content was decent, but not up to standards that I expect for many of our classical learners. You could easily combine Noeo level one and two for earlier elementary studies. We did NOEO Biology II. I wouldn't let the notebooking sample that they provide turn you off from doing this necessarily, the books are meaty and you can decide how to notebook it yourself--you don't have to use their materials on that. One of the science books (the encyclopedia) I felt was a bit much for my kids that year (5th & 3rd grades), so it's hard to think of it as not meaty enough from that perspective. We still keep it around as a handy reference! The Body Book about did me in! If I had it to do again, I would pre-read every set of instructions first. I expected this book to be open and go, but often the instructions didn't make sense, left out steps, said there was a diagram or picture to look at when there wasn't one (and a picture of some of the steps would have been VERY helpful), and in general it was a lot of cutting for seemingly weeks on end. I also would have not had my kids each do their own models, but would instead combine on one model (which is what I did part-way through). I was never so happy to sell a science book, LOL, although it left some good memories for my dd--time softened the frustrations in their minds and they just remembered the fun models (or maybe the frustrations were mainly in my mind, LOL!). HTH some, Merry :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Looking for some mix of the above as none seem to develop well for an ancient history study. This was my initial puzzle or conundrum originally. I used bird's perhaps because your post was recently read and I made it quite an exageration. Forgive me! I only intended to convey that a singular topic was not what I wanted. I could not see one topic serving ancient history well at all or in this context any child at the fifth grade level, which is what I am trying to serve. I want something variable. I know that I will need take a unit approach to some extent. I need to know what you use and why. We used RSO with great success. It was easy to take off on an interest-driven subject mater and return. This is an important factor for me. For the 1-4 grades, this more than served our needs and I could enrich with resources easily. We were "playing" with science. I do not have the time to create science from the blank sheet of paper, so yes, I am looking to combine prepackaged curriculum. As you could read, I had a lot of questions about a lot of curriculum. Try not to read too much into my post. I am thinking aloud, and hoping that all of you can help me weed through my brain! Remember my opinion is just that - and often only the opinion or conclusion drawn at that particular point of my research. :) I am not an oak tree - I sway in the wind too. I can find great things about all of the programs I listed, and I have used many of them in the past or something very similiar. We were discussing content rich foundational scientific study that will make a child think, learn to learn, and develop a hunger for the subject itself. I want the perfect science curriculum to match up with an ancient history study. :) I am stuborn enough to ask all of you a billion questions, persistently, until I find some order in the mess I have created in my head! :d:d:d:d:d BTW, I will be looking at Nebels, the ebook is inexpensive. I am relieved to see that there is a new book. It would be a great jumping position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I totally agree with this. I guess my hesitation is that I want my kids to both do science and be exposed to scientific concepts and ideas. And for us, while we try to be in the moment and try to seize their curiosity and all that, I find that it's just so much easier if I have a plan, a program, something structured, even if just loosely, to ensure that we spend the amount of time and energy on science that I feel like is essential to get my kids to take it as seriously as they take the rest of our school subjects. And to give them the space to do that sort of exploration. It frustrates me that both in schools and sometimes by homeschoolers - science is a seemingly forgotten subject, especially in elementary school. And to me, what you're describing is "meaty" - the same way that reading Ramona the Pest is "meaty" literature for a 2nd grader new to chapter books but wouldn't be for a 9th grader and perhaps isn't the first thing adults think of when they think of meaty literature. It's all about context when you're judging what's "meaty." I don't think we disagree at all. We study lots of biology. We learn about classification. We explore geology and archeology. We learn the periodic table and demonstrate basic chemical reactions. But again, these are experiences, memorization and history. I did not intend to imply that there is no science before math, but that parents need to understand that working through science books isn't the same thing as doing science. You are not going to buy a "meaty" science program for elementary school that will prepare your kids for college. Childhood is short. Kids love to explore the world around them. I think that kids are better served with our science energy by letting them follow their interest and helping to foster that natural curiosity. Lets follow of story of a child that likes to build dams in the street. My dd loves the rain and loves to try to dam up the water flowing down the side of our street. After a few hours, she's successful and floods the street. The next week we take a walk in our favorite park and watch a beaver building a dam. We follow that up by a trip to the library to read about hydroelectric dams, beavers and lakes. Later that week, she converts her generator from a science kit to use a paddle wheel. We add the Hoover dam to our list of places to visit on our summer trips. We follow our storm drain to a little stream, to a bigger stream. We learn the word confluence. We visit the museum of science and learn that our little storm drain leads eventually to the Colorado River. We watch a movie about the building of dams on the Colorado River. We visit some lovely slot canyons that were saved by stopping a proposed dam. We go river rafting with a group from the museum to learn about the geology of the area. We also visit some thermal pools and learn about the volcanoes. She researches the dams being built on the Yangtze river. She also follows her reading about beavers into an interest in the history of the fur trade in the area and on to French explorers. Somewhere in there we also touched on pollution, water rights, sedimentation, evaporation and energy conservation. If we had learned about beavers or hydroelectric dams in XYZ science program how much of that would have been included? We did study biology and not use much math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Again, I am only thinking aloud ... It would appear that Apologia would not fit well because of the notebooking. If I use a portion of any of the books, I would probably use them for content. Noeo concerns me - I worry about the references or diagrams missing. I like the books though. I will keep a list of the books that accompany this study. I will consider Sonlight 5 as a list to be kept as well. I think I can certainly rule out Abeka and BJU. I still loved BJU for high school science, but I am glad I have been reminded how dry and why we chose RSO for 1-4 for my second student. I appreciate you all helping me! I believe that my brain is becoming more useful. :) I am going to start reading Nebel's, but I was reading some more on his site. It would seem that this is a repetitive study. The poster above is right. The difficulty is what changes from year to year, not the content. Again, this is not something I want to do - be repetitive for the next two years! How boring would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Excuse me if I disagree.There is hardly ANY mathematics involved in biology. To understand how organisms work, how cells work, how animals and plants are classified requires no math. On an elementary level, a child can learn about life cycles, the function of the body, the relationship between anatomy and the behavior and environment of an animal or plant. None of this requires dumbing down. There is very little math in chemistry. Understanding the structure of an atom and the nature of bonds requires counting to... maybe five and basic addition. Properties of classes of substances can be explored. I agree that a thorough understanding of physics requires math; however, a lot can be understood conceptually. It is actually very challenging to teach conceptual physics well without math, much harder for the teacher than a math based course, but there is a lot that goes beyond memorization. A younger student can learn about Newton's laws, about free fall, about collisions and potential energy completely without math. He can understand how charged particles interact, that current is the motion of electrons through a metal, about heat, melting and evaporation... Other great sciences which involve hardly any math are geology and astronomy. There is plenty of science to fill the few years until the student has higher math available. I agree and disagree. I have a degree in Biology, DH has a degree in Chemistry (and works as an Analytical chemist). I've taken Bio, Chem, Physics and Geology. My oldest has taken High School Biology, Chemistry and Physics. Biology doesn't need math until you get into very specific, higher level stuff and then a lot of it is statistics. Chemistry requires algebra (and eventually calculus) once you get past the initial informational stuff. If you don't ever go into that aspect of it, you will be dumbing it down to an extent. Physics is a LOT of math (and my least favorite of all the sciences). You need algebra, trigonometry and geometry pretty quickly. There is some informational stuff and experiments that can be done without it but you will have to leave out certain aspects if the math background isn't there. Geology doesn't need math either until you get into the chemical composition of various rocks and minerals. We're just starting out homeschooling and we are using BFSU to develop a course of study since I love the idea of integrating the different disciplines. We will be supplementing with RSO (I'm hoping the next level will be ready by the time we get there) to provide more experiments and open-and-go information. I really don't have a problem with having to explore only certain aspects (or dumb down) chemistry and physics in the elementary years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I totally agree with this. I guess my hesitation is that I want my kids to both do science and be exposed to scientific concepts and ideas. And for us, while we try to be in the moment and try to seize their curiosity and all that, I find that it's just so much easier if I have a plan, a program, something structured, even if just loosely, to ensure that we spend the amount of time and energy on science that I feel like is essential to get my kids to take it as seriously as they take the rest of our school subjects. And to give them the space to do that sort of exploration. It frustrates me that both in schools and sometimes by homeschoolers - science is a seemingly forgotten subject, especially in elementary school. Please explain what you mean be being exposed versus doing science. I am curious at the distinctions. Do no fear that I will bash you by any means, but I am wanting to understand the difference to you. It may make a difference to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Please explain what you mean be being exposed versus doing science. I am curious at the distinctions. Do no fear that I will bash you by any means, but I am wanting to understand the difference to you. It may make a difference to me! I think most of the things in science curricula are exposing children to scientific ideas. Reading about science, watching a video about science, doing a demonstration, filling out a worksheet, notebooking, etc. are all ways to learn about science that has already been established. I think that's important, but I also think it's important to spend time actually experimenting and discovering - scientists observe, record, theorize, etc. Obviously, while this case is pretty extreme (most kids aren't going to end up with their nature observations published!), it's an example of kids doing science instead of just reading about it. I don't always feel like I have this balance between the two pieces right. And science is a subject that interests me greatly, but that I sometimes feel inadequate about. I'm not a trained scientist by any means. But I feel sure that while I want my kids to learn about the concepts that are known in science, I also want them to experience what science really is - exploration and discovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Looking for some mix of the above as none seem to develop well for an ancient history study. This was my initial puzzle or conundrum originally. I used bird's perhaps because your post was recently read and I made it quite an exageration. Forgive me! I only intended to convey that a singular topic was not what I wanted. I could not see one topic serving ancient history well at all or in this context any child at the fifth grade level, which is what I am trying to serve. I need to know what you use and why. We used RSO with great success. It was easy to take off on an interest-driven subject mater and return. This is an important factor for me. For the 1-4 grades, this more than served our needs and I could enrich with resources easily. We were "playing" with science. I can find great things about all of the programs I listed, and I have used many of them in the past or something very similiar. We were discussing content rich foundational scientific study that will make a child think, learn to learn, and develop a hunger for the subject itself. . See, I don't believe interest-driven science is "playing" with science. It is science. My dd was in 5th grade when she spent those months studying birds. I'm sure if she ends up at Cornell in their ornithology dept that it won't have been time that didn't "serve" or was wasted playing w/non-"meaty" science. How about the alternative......building a passion as well as a hobby around a field of science actually develops " content rich foundational scientific study that will make a child think, learn to learn, and develop a hunger for the subject itself" Edited February 6, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I I don't always feel like I have this balance between the two pieces right. And science is a subject that interests me greatly, but that I sometimes feel inadequate about. I'm not a trained scientist by any means. But I feel sure that while I want my kids to learn about the concepts that are known in science, I also want them to experience what science really is - exploration and discovery. Exactly - you certianly said it better than I could. I feel like the responsibility to school my children in this subject is one that I feel strongly about, as you can tell. It is not that I do not have the background, but rather that I feel the choice is so important. I do not want something that will be passed over, forgotton, not rich in content, ah .... Balance <sigh> What did you use this year? We used RSO with Prentice Hall to enrich or to "balance" both sides of the study, which I loved by the way. I suppose this is why I am moaning!:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 How about the alternative......building a passion as well as a hobby around a field of science actually develops " content rich foundational scientific study that will make a child think, learn to learn, and develop a hunger for the subject itself" Again, let me say how sorry I am to have over exageratted a comment example that was more than likely based on one of your comments that was fresh in my memory! Forgive me. Actually, I like the approach ... So, let me ask you how did you get to the heart of the scientfic process while exploring this content? The study is meaty in the context, which is something I desire. I feel we need the content enrichment for certain. I guess I want to know how you applied this to her study. If I let dd choose, oh say five areas that are her favorite - I pause. One will certainly involve insects! - how would I implement or guide? I am not a curriculum guru, and I suppose that this is quite evident with all of my ramblings. I would need a sort of guide or staple - a jumping point, a set of standards, etc. I believe most of us would. Would you share? How do you handle broad science exposure? You do not want to miss the study of the body for her next driven study, oh say horses. How do you handle redirection? Do you even try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 We're thinking of using Colors next year for my fifth grader, PLUS Sciencesaurus text. I don't know if that's overkill, but it's easier for me to lighten the load than to scramble to find something to add. Thanks for this thread, it's sure to help someone who would like to see the options outlined! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Looking for some mix of the above as none seem to develop well for an ancient history study. This was my initial puzzle or conundrum originally. Signs and Seasons would go well with an ancient history study. You can see my review of the curriculum here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Signs and Seasons would go well with an ancient history study. You can see my review of the curriculum here. That is just ... neat! This was a cool find! Do you have it now? Is it possible to do in a few months? I know that you have not used it, but have you had time to go through the text? I like the content and application. I believe - interest driven - that we could get lost in this one for a while. I would need a time limit. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 That is just ... neat! This was a cool find! Do you have it now? Is it possible to do in a few months? I know that you have not used it, but have you had time to go through the text? I like the content and application. I believe - interest driven - that we could get lost in this one for a while. I would need a time limit. :D Yes I have it now and have read through most of it. I think it would take most of a school year for middle school or younger students. When I use this I will probably do it along side another study like birds, lol. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Jo Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I am not a curriculum guru, and I suppose that this is quite evident with all of my ramblings. I would need a sort of guide or staple - a jumping point, a set of standards, etc. I believe most of us would. Would you share? This is me too. Science is not my strong point. I'm trying to learn more by getting some of AO's science recommendations, and I'll have the kids read some of these too. But I want to have some type of guide. I'm not comfortable doing it myself. A guide also prevents me from getting distracted and forgetting to do anything with science - it's not a subject I'd normally discuss. If that makes any sense. That's why I love these boards though, and the ability to hear what more experienced people do. :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 What did you use this year? We used RSO with Prentice Hall to enrich or to "balance" both sides of the study, which I loved by the way. I suppose this is why I am moaning!:lol: My kids are younger (1st graders)... But I couldn't get happy with any of the options I looked at. Finally, I made up my own curriculum using the Usborne Science Encyclopedia as a spine. I feel like we'll probably keep doing that for the whole of the grammar stage unless something better comes along... I suppose we may change spines though - I would love to have a better science narrative from which to draw and there are some I want to look at for earth science and environmental science next year. I have BFSU and I like it so I'm definitely influenced by that. If anyone is curious, I've been pretty good about blogging our science journey for the year. This post links to most of the posts I did about it. I feel pretty good about what we've been doing, but I don't know that I did it "right" so to speak - especially that balance between presenting information and letting the kids explore and discover on their own. But we're slightly science focused in general - we're also part of a co-op that has been very sciencey this year and I send the kids to summer camp at a science museum every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) :lurk5: I guess I ought to get around to planning science for 5th grade next year, though I'd feel better if I had a slightly better plan now for the end of 4th grade (we're hs-ing a whole month already :D). I recently bought the Handbook of Nature Study (Comstock) but I'm not sure what I'm doing with it. I also have an Everything You Need to Know book ( http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Need-About-Science-Homework/dp/0439625440/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296967708&sr=1-1 ) that I was considering using as a spine of sorts. ETA: some of you may be interested in science threads from the logic stage board such as http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224939 Edited February 6, 2011 by wapiti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebug42 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Honestly, I outsource science for the most part. My children go to homeschool science classes at the local science museum along with a weekly science club also at the science museum. They also attend local Kids on Campus classes for grades K-6 at a local university monthly. They get all of their hands on stuff and experiments in a much better environment with better equipment than I can offer them here at home especially since science is not my subject. I just bought Ellen McHenry's The Elements to use with them at home since while they get a lot of hands on, they don't get as much of the book work here. They also tend to not get much human body/biology stuff there so I am working on a couple of units there. I just bought a Sciencesaurus book to help supplement these items. I have found it to be next to impossible to do much in the way of experiments at home so I just quit trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I was looking at Sciencesaurus. Is there a link to see a sample anywhere? Also, has anyone used the Daybook? "high-interest, reader-response resources designed to help students investigate, learn, and apply essential life, earth, and physical science concepts through meaningful activities that connect science to the real world." The Daybook seems similar to the Kogs. Again, anyone use this? Link to a sample? Also, for anyone who has used the Science Explorer series from PH, are the workbooks similar in their description? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I have been reading on the board – lots. As you know, by now, I feel strongly about transitioning my student to a more formal or structured science study of the various disciplines. I want to correlate with our historical studies. At this point, we are moving into our second rotation of ancient history. Previously, like many of you, I endeavored to expose and to “play” (using this term loosely) with science. We read every Magic School Bus, Seymour, and so many more others. We have endulged in interest-driven explorations, the most recent being severe weather. I did not want to “study” science. We did not memorize lists or facts either. At some point, as I have mentioned, I felt that the importance to my student to “school” meant that at some point that we would need a more formal approach. I chose to use the second rotation of historical studies to have this change take place. With that said … Take a look at what I found here: http://www.amazon.com/ClassiQuest-Science-Biology-Classical-Curriculum/dp/0982957319/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288762220&sr=8-1#reader_0982957319 I would love some feedback whether you explore the book and site on your own or use it. I would like to see what you think about this particular text. I was impressed by the resources, because they are familiar to most of us: Kingfisher, Usborne, DK Publishing, and Biology for Every Kid (experiments). As well, forms are provided for labs. There are timeline entries (easily added to our historical timeline!), memorization lists, definitions and research assignments to name a few. Science history is included! (A note, I will probably involve some extra reading resources similar to BF and the HOS set or Songlight) Of course, these are all things I “whined” over consistently. The terminology is broken into Latin and Greek Roots. A notebook is used to organize the work – again, something we are familiar and accustomed too. Finally, the science studies are paired with the history studies! Lastly, this is something that easily can be paired with other literature selections or resource reading. This is something that made me extremely fond of RSO, which I pair with other resources for history. When you look further on the web site (www.classicaleducationresources.com), you see that the level two HO ancient study is listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Jo Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I recently bought the Handbook of Nature Study (Comstock) but I'm not sure what I'm doing with it. Try the outdoor hour challenges! They are once a week, there is a section to pre-read, something to try to do while outside, and sometimes an activity afterwards. They are free online, or for a reasonable cost your can purchase them in groups as e-books. I highly recommend them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I love nature study. Thank you for the hour challenges link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebug42 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Here is a link to the Sciencesaurus. In addition, to the samples here, I believe Rainbow Resource also has samples. These books don't have experiments etc in them but they do have internet links. It is a pretty straight-forward informational book which is what I was looking for as a spine. I purchased the grade 4-5 book. It appeals to my just the facts nature. I do not have the Daybooks but may consider those in later years. I will have a 3rd and 5th grader next year. http://www.greatsource.com/store/ProductCatalogController?cmd=Browse&subcmd=LoadDetail&level1Code=06&level2Code=060&frontOrBack=F&nextLevel=1&division=G01&sortEntriesBy=SEQ_NAME¤tTab=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I am confused by your post. If you are asserting that you believe you personally need a pre-packaged program b/c you believe you cannot provide your children with "content enriched studies" w/o one, I sincerely hope that someone is able to assist you in finding one that helps you meet your and your children's needs. If, however, you are asserting that "content enriched studies" are only achievable with pre-packed programs and that interest driven science studies cannot be their equal, then I strongly disagree. It may be your opinion, which you are entitled to, but evidence exists to the contrary. Interest-driven science isn't "studying birds in your backyard for 2 yrs." I know I have posted about my budding ornithologist and her bird studies. She read numerous books on birds (the physics of their flight, their migration patterns, how they are classified, the differences in how they construct nests and care for their young, etc). The knowledge she garnered fanned a passion. She is quite a bird watcher. Is it all she did for 2 yrs? Absolutely not. It is all she did for science for school for a few months and now she spends hrs birding on her own. I don't really know if she hadn't had the freedom to explore the topic in depth if ornithology would still be an avid pursuit. Reading whole books on topics takes students to a depth in materials that are simply not achievable via textbooks. Our family's approach means that from 3rd grade all the way to 7th or 8th they are constantly reading whole books on all varieties of science topics, everything from electricity to insects to astronomy. It does not mean they don't cover science basics. It simply means that they are not confined to the content determined by textbook publishers. If the approach does not meet your family's needs, you absolutely need to find a method that will allow you to teach your children science. But, do not posit your position as proof that it is not "SCHOOL" or meaty simply b/c it does not fall in line with your definition of science instruction. FWIW......I have been teaching science this way for 17+ yrs. I think my sr in chemical engineering ds, my wanting to major in chemistry dd, and my wanting to be an astrophysicist ds would pretty much disagree w/the assumption that not using pre-fab science programs meant that they weren't learning science in elementary/middle school. Quite the opposite. GREAT post, Karen! Thanks for sharing this. If anyone can speak on early years and science topics, it is you. So much of what we covered in early years "because we had to follow the curriculum" is now forgotten. However the things my children have learned because they were interested and driven to learn - those are still with them. This isn't to say we don't use curriculum, but we are not slaves to it either and allow for period of deeper interest even if the book says otherwise. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Again, let me say how sorry I am to have over exageratted a comment example that was more than likely based on one of your comments that was fresh in my memory! Forgive me. Actually, I like the approach ... So, let me ask you how did you get to the heart of the scientfic process while exploring this content? The study is meaty in the context, which is something I desire. I feel we need the content enrichment for certain. I guess I want to know how you applied this to her study. If I let dd choose, oh say five areas that are her favorite - I pause. One will certainly involve insects! - how would I implement or guide? I am not a curriculum guru, and I suppose that this is quite evident with all of my ramblings. I would need a sort of guide or staple - a jumping point, a set of standards, etc. I believe most of us would. Would you share? How do you handle broad science exposure? You do not want to miss the study of the body for her next driven study, oh say horses. How do you handle redirection? Do you even try? I don't even try to control what they study. They tend to either really concentrate on one field or they vary it on their own. (well, I do offer suggestions to the younger ones, but they are free to choose something different.) Here are some of the books that my 3rd and 6th grade are waiting to read: (not in any order and not separated by grade level. Some are definitely geared to 3rd and some for 6+) *What Einstein Told His Cook: Kitchen Science Explained *Fabre's Book of Insects *The Snowflake Man: A Biography of Wilson A. Bentley *The Story Book of Science (not to be cofused with Hakim's Story of Science.....not the same thing. This is by Fabre) *The View from the Oak: The Private Worlds of Other Creatures *The Wonder Book of Chemistry *Discover Nature in the Rocks: Things to Know and Things to Do *The Electron *Seven Wonders of Exploration Technology *To the Young Scientist: Reflections on Doing and Living Science *The Invention of Clouds: How an Amateur Meteorologist Forged the Language of the Skies *Discover Nature at Sundown: Things to Know and Things to Do Sometimes they just read books like this for fun or they will read them through the summer. I'm sure if they don't get to all of these titles that they have selected this yr, they'll read them next yr (or maybe not. ;) ) FWIW.....Several of Fabre's books are available as pdfs online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Here are some of the books that my 3rd and 6th grade are waiting to read: (not in any order and not separated by grade level. Some are definitely geared to 3rd and some for 6+) Sometimes they just read books like this for fun or they will read them through the summer. I'm sure if they don't get to all of these titles that they have selected this yr, they'll read them next yr (or maybe not. ;) ) FWIW.....Several of Fabre's books are available as pdfs online. Thank you for sharing this and for your lists. I think I may have The Wonder Book of Chemistry. I found an old book of chemistry experiments by Mae and Ira Freeman for 25 cents at the thrift shop on Saturday which will be nice. Oops! Wrong chemistry book. I have the 1950-1960-ish How and Why Library chemistry book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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