I am going to have to pass a lot of bean dip over the next few years

[Brilliant]

2 of my closest friends don't believe girls should go to college. I don't agree, but I don't argue with them at all or try to challenge their beliefs - frankly, it's none of my business!

 

But I'm already getting polite questioning from them about our decision to send dd to a Christian university. And I haven't even dropped the bomb yet that dh and I have decided the commute is too long and expensive, so dd will probably live on campus. (that den of iniquity).

 

I don't want to lose my friends but I don't want to feel criticized. I guess I need to start practicing a smiling "Oh, we think it's best for our dd; would you like some bean dip?"

[creekland]

I'm sure glad my parents encouraged me to go to college (insisted on it actually). If I had daughters, I'd be encouraging them to go just as much as I am for my sons.

 

My guy is loving his Christian College experience - and has a girlfriend. ;) (We really like her and her parents and are glad they met whether it ever progresses further or not.)

[mommaduck]

:grouphug:

[Grace is Sufficient]

First and foremost, I want my daughter prepared to be a wife and a stay-at-home (hopefully homeschooling :001_smile:) mom. Were I to be able to look into the future and see that being the case, I might not spend the money for college either, at least not more than a 2 year community college.

 

However, I can't look into the future, and no matter how well I prepare my daughter for the life I hope she has, it takes two to get married, and there are no guarantees of it. So I feel quite responsible to make sure that my daughter can support herself well in case she: 1) doesn't get married; 2) is widowed young, especially if she is left with children to support; 3) other unforeseen circumstance.

 

I'm certainly not suggesting you engage your friends in the discussion, but I would be interested in what they consider adequate preparation for the scenario #1, and especially #2, above.

 

Blessings,

Debbie

[Nan in Mass]

Yes, but... given that you think the men should run the country, doesn't it make sense that the women who are educating the men should be educated themselves?

[Brilliant]

...

I'm certainly not suggesting you engage your friends in the discussion, but I would be interested in what they consider adequate preparation for the scenario #1, and especially #2, above.

 

Blessings,

Debbie

 

I might bring this up if we do end up in a conversation.

 

I've been pondering my "bean dip" plan this morning and I realized something: Isn't passing the bean dip really for people who just don't (or won't) get it? I love my friends, so I might have to change my comment to "Oh, we think it's best for our dd; so we are going to have to agree to disagree on this!" I don't think either of them would push it if I made that clear.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Yes, but... given that you think the men should run the country, doesn't it make sense that the women who are educating the men should be educated themselves?

 

:iagree:

 

A quote I heard the other day:

 

If you educate a man, you educate a man. If you educate a woman, you educate a family.

[justamouse]

Yes, but... given that you think the men should run the country, doesn't it make sense that the women who are educating the men should be educated themselves?

 

:iagree:

[Grace is Sufficient]

 

I've been pondering my "bean dip" plan this morning and I realized something: Isn't passing the bean dip really for people who just don't (or won't) get it? I love my friends, so I might have to change my comment to "Oh, we think it's best for our dd; so we are going to have to agree to disagree on this!" I don't think either of them would push it if I made that clear.

 

Pass the bean dip? That's really interesting - I've never heard that one before!

[Grace is Sufficient]

Yes, but... given that you think the men should run the country, doesn't it make sense that the women who are educating the men should be educated themselves?

 

Frankly, I've gotten a better education from homeschooling my children than I did in four years of college. Like the title of the board... I'm a firm believer in 'self-education.'

 

Blessings,

Debbie

[Tullia]

Pass the bean dip? That's really interesting - I've never heard that one before!

 

I believe the credit for developing the idea belongs to Joanne who posts mostly on the General board. It's useful for tactfully redirecting the boundary-challenged who are hostile to homeschooling.

[msk]

Not sending girls to college is a very effective way of ensuring that they have absolutely *no choice* but to be a stay-at-home wife and mother (or forever a stay-at-parents'-home, dependent adult daughter). Sending sons to college but not daughters sends a strong message that sons should have choices about the directions their lives take, while daughters have only one "choice": the one their parents have already made for them. Is that the message your friends want to send? If it is, I assume they are saving their money and planning to happily, non-judgmentally, and generously financially support those daughters and their families if anything they cannot control ever goes wrong-- in their marriages, if their husbands are ever injured or lose their jobs, etc-- something that will probably cost far more than college. I'd probably ask just enough to find out whether they've really thought about both the message they are sending and the increased financial responsibility they are taking on, and if they have, pass the bean dip.

 

If they're not sending their sons OR their daughters to college, that's a different kettle of fish.

[DawnM]

What I agree that I do learn a lot educating my own children, that knowledge will not land me a job should I need one!

 

That little piece of paper that says I am certified to work in my field of choice does!

 

Dawn

 

Frankly, I've gotten a better education from homeschooling my children than I did in four years of college. Like the title of the board... I'm a firm believer in 'self-education.'

 

Blessings,

Debbie

[DawnM]

My simple reply would be that you need NEW friends! :D I can't imagine having friends who think that way, but I know they exist.

 

I don't have girls, so I won't be facing this at all, but I am a FIRM believer in pursing a college education and would most likely state that to any who ask my opinion. My guess is that your friends and I would not see eye to eye on much.

 

Dawn

[laundrycrisis]

First I will say that I would not be able to maintain friendships with anyone who felt that way about young women and college. I find it a very demeaning and insulting view. I also do not and will never agree with the idea that women should only aspire to be at home raising kids. But I do have a thought that might be worth the consideration of someone with those views.

 

Even though I have a college degree, and had a viable career, I still ended up married, not working, at home, with our kids. And what made that possible for us was not my husband's job....it was the money I saved from my career before I married, and the money I earned after we were married but before we had our first child. Because of my savings and my earnings, we had enough for the down payment on our first house, which grew in value so that we could move to our second house later. We also had money in savings by the time our first child was born, which made it easier to make the switch to me staying home. I also invested in my own retirement through 401Ks during my "career years", and that is still there for me even though I am no longer in the workforce.

 

Even if a young woman wants to eventually stay home with kids while her husband earns the household income, the path to that can be made a lot easier if she can spend a few years earning good money before staying home with children. This is especially beneficial after marriage but before children - if a couple can plan to live on one salary, and save all of the take-home pay from the other salary, they can build up a nice savings pretty quickly. That may even be the difference that makes it financially possible for her to stay home once children are born.

[laughing lioness]

We've come across this attitude so much. Of course, no one says anything to my dh and I - they just tell my girls that they are "out of God's will" and "not submitting to authority."

 

It's a pretty legalistic and limiting way to think about life.

My mom ran in to this with her dad. He paid for my uncle to go to college but wouldn't for my mom. My gram went to work and sent my mom to a private 4-year college. She later completed a doctoral degree.

[readwithem]

We've come across this attitude so much. Of course, no one says anything to my dh and I - they just tell my girls that they are "out of God's will" and "not submitting to authority."

 

 

:eek:

 

:ack2:

 

I'd have a hard time staying with that (church? other organization?) after my dd heard those words.

[laughing lioness]

:eek:

 

:ack2:

 

I'd have a hard time staying with that (church? other organization?) after my dd heard those words.

 

local homeschoolers

[justamouse]

We've come across this attitude so much. Of course, no one says anything to my dh and I - they just tell my girls that they are "out of God's will" and "not submitting to authority."

 

It's a pretty legalistic and limiting way to think about life.

My mom ran in to this with her dad. He paid for my uncle to go to college but wouldn't for my mom. My gram went to work and sent my mom to a private 4-year college. She later completed a doctoral degree.

 

People have the audacity to stay that to them when it clearly goes against your own wishes? I am forever amazed a those who know God's will for everyone's life. (sometimes I'm so happy I live on the East Coast, that type of thinking is almost never heard here)

 

And that was an amazing step your Gram took. It could have caused a huge rift in her marriage.

[Kareni]

Pass the bean dip? That's really interesting - I've never heard that one before!

 

Here's a link: Bean Dip!.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Grace is Sufficient]

What I agree that I do learn a lot educating my own children, that knowledge will not land me a job should I need one!

 

That little piece of paper that says I am certified to work in my field of choice does!

 

Dawn

 

I don't get this response other than as an indication that you weren't very careful in reading, or don't really care what I said in the post you were theoretically responding to...

[Gwen in VA]

We've come across this attitude so much. Of course, no one says anything to my dh and I - they just tell my girls that they are "out of God's will" and "not submitting to authority."

 

It's a pretty legalistic and limiting way to think about life.

 

We have left a church over this issue. I have lost friends over this issue. :crying:

 

I hope that things work out in such a way that my 2 dd's do some day get married and stay at home for a while to rear kids. But in the meantime --

 

1) I don't have a crystal ball. She may not get married -- not everyone does!

 

2) She will be better off with an education. And if she does get married and have a family, the entire family will be better off because she is educated.

 

I know more than a handful of women in their mid-20's who are single yet are stuck at home without any marketable skills and no occupation outside of pro bono babysitting. What will happen to these women when their fathers die? Will they become dependent on their brothers? I do NOT want my daughters to end up like this!

[elegantlion]

nm, tmi

Edited January 22, 2011 by elegantlion

[DawnM]

It was simply a comment....sorry you were offended. That wasn't my intent....I wasn't trying to be argumentative to you, I was trying to agree more with the OP (and others) that college is important for girls should they choose to go.

 

And my comment should have read "While" not "What." I hadn't had all my coffee yet.

 

So, you are probably right, I was not reading carefully.

 

Sorry.

 

Dawn

 

I don't get this response other than as an indication that you weren't very careful in reading, or don't really care what I said in the post you were theoretically responding to...

[Chris in VA]

First I will say that I would not be able to maintain friendships with anyone who felt that way about young women and college. I find it a very demeaning and insulting view. I also do not and will never agree with the idea that women should only aspire to be at home raising kids. But I do have a thought that might be worth the consideration of someone with those views.

 

Even though I have a college degree, and had a viable career, I still ended up married, not working, at home, with our kids. And what made that possible for us was not my husband's job....it was the money I saved from my career before I married, and the money I earned after we were married but before we had our first child. Because of my savings and my earnings, we had enough for the down payment on our first house, which grew in value so that we could move to our second house later. We also had money in savings by the time our first child was born, which made it easier to make the switch to me staying home. I also invested in my own retirement through 401Ks during my "career years", and that is still there for me even though I am no longer in the workforce.

 

Even if a young woman wants to eventually stay home with kids while her husband earns the household income, the path to that can be made a lot easier if she can spend a few years earning good money before staying home with children. This is especially beneficial after marriage but before children - if a couple can plan to live on one salary, and save all of the take-home pay from the other salary, they can build up a nice savings pretty quickly. That may even be the difference that makes it financially possible for her to stay home once children are born.

 

I agree with this line of thought!

But I have to say, some of the folks who think dd's shouldn't go to college aren't just thinking wives with kids should stay home, they are thinking ALL wives, even childless wives, should stay home. I have a friend like that. She's not really that vocal about it, and considers it an "ideal," not a reality (her dd went to college, her boys married college-educated, working women).

It's not for me.

 

I am challenged, however, with presenting my sahm-ness as an interesting, fulfilling option to my nieces, whose dad (db) died while they were teens; they see me as leading a boring life, and plan on working b/c their mom works (CPA, has always worked, even when they were young).

 

Funny how much we are influenced by the messages we receive growing up.

[laundrycrisis]

I am challenged, however, with presenting my sahm-ness as an interesting, fulfilling option to my nieces, whose dad (db) died while they were teens; they see me as leading a boring life, and plan on working b/c their mom works (CPA, has always worked, even when they were young).

 

Funny how much we are influenced by the messages we receive growing up.

 

Life can take funny turns. My mother worked full time. And her mother worked full time, with four kids. I had assumed I would work full time even with children. Men never have to choose between family and career, so why should I ? I had no interest, none, in staying home. Enter one adorable baby with chronic digestive and respiratory illnesses, who never slept more than 40 minutes at a time, and was literally sick, too sick to be allowed at day care, more than 50% of the time, and no backup child care available at all....I couldn't keep my job under those conditions, and by that point, I no longer wanted to. But it's been a little hard to adjust to, because there were no SAHMs in any of my family. My aunts all worked full time and raised kids. Both grandmothers worked. I have no model of SAHM contentment to draw from. What your nieces learn from you may help one or both of them someday - you never know.

 

However I don't regret my college degree or the career I had before this. Those were important life experiences for me. If I had a DD, I would absolutely want her to plan a career of some sort, even if she didn't want to do it forever.

[Grace is Sufficient]

Family history is undoubtedly the reason I pointed out that danger in my first response... my mother was unexpectedly widowed in her 20s with four kids under age 7.

[readwithem]

local homeschoolers

 

:glare: not surprising, sadly. We have had very little interaction with local homeschoolers, for this reason (and others along the same line...).

[FaithManor]

IF this were MOI, there would be no pass the bean dip! There would be this response, "WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD! LAST TIME I LOOKED AT THE SCRIPTURES, I DIDN'T SEE YOUR NAME, A VERSE PROHIBITING EDUCATION FOR FEMALES, OR ANY INDICATION FROM SCRIPTURE THAT YOU GET TO CHOOSE GOD'S WILL FOR MY KID'S LIFE! YOUR OPINION IS NOT NECESSARY, THANKS!"

 

So, just out of curiosity, if one of these daughter's ends up widowed with three little kids, are they planning on her moving home and supporting all of them or are they going to hand pick some dude for her to marry as soon as the body of previous hubby is cold???? I seriously do not understand people of this mindset.

 

Faith

[creekland]

I'm just glad I wasn't born into a family with this mindset.

[KnitWit]

Yeah. We have had friends that believed the same. Some of them have dd's who are now well into their 20's and still unmarried with no one on the horizon. Guess who is taking classes?

 

Whatever.

 

My daughter is very happily tucked away in a dorm in a great school that is perfect for her. She hasn't cut off contact with us, burned her bra, or forsaken her faith. She is thriving. :)

[Brilliant]

I just wanted to clarify that nobody has said anything overtly disapproving of our choice. The questions have been very polite.

 

I guess I'm just worried about my own concerns about feeling "judged" and what I will say if that happens (esp. re: dorm issue). I hope & pray it doesn't.

 

In other news, dd had her Honors program interview today. She should hear back within a couple of weeks. We are so excited. :001_smile:

[KnitWit]

There is but one Judge. Your friends are not *He*. I'm sure this is not the first time in your life, especially as a homeschooler, that you have faced scrutiny of your choices, and it certainly won't be the last. :grouphug:

 

My desire is to encourage you to shut them out. They are making the choices they feel are best for their family and you have to make yours. You have to live with the results, as do they.

 

YOU know your daughter.

 

Oh, and wishing your daughter THE BEST on the results of her interview! These are exciting times! Don't let anyone rob you of the JOY!

[naturalmom]

I wouldn't be so quick to drop the friendships. As the OP said, there hasn't been pressure on her to conform to their views.

 

I know a family that doesn't send their girls to college. They do, however, encourage continued academic and musical study: the last time I spoke with the girls, they were doing historical research and studying Dickens. They are more articulate than some college students. They also have home based businesses and teach music lessons while living at home.

 

I think part of what this family is responding to is the idea that going to college is the only way to continue learning. Isn't that similar to the idea that a mother can teach her preschooler but not her school age child? I think if we go back a few years, the same response was given to people who homeschooled - especially into high school. (and the sons in the family don't appear headed to college either, so I suspect it does have more to do with self-education)

 

Having said all that, I don't intend to keep my daughter at home. But I respect and admire my friend and her choice. I have no problem following a different path than she has chosen.

[KnitWit]

I just want to clarify, in case I need to, that I wasn't suggesting dropping the friendships, but just shutting out their personal preferences for their family, so that you won't feel judged for YOUR personal preferences. Or, shall I say, your daughter's. ;)

[Grace is Sufficient]

I just want to clarify, in case I need to, that I wasn't suggesting dropping the friendships, but just shutting out their personal preferences for their family, so that you won't feel judged for YOUR personal preferences. Or, shall I say, your daughter's. ;)

 

I find it interesting how many on this board are judging OPs friend for her personal preferences. I have found it very disturbing, and I hope it didn't sound like I was doing that when I tossed out the scenario of a woman being widowed with small children.

[creekland]

I wouldn't be so quick to drop the friendships. As the OP said, there hasn't been pressure on her to conform to their views.

 

I know a family that doesn't send their girls to college. They do, however, encourage continued academic and musical study: the last time I spoke with the girls, they were doing historical research and studying Dickens. They are more articulate than some college students. They also have home based businesses and teach music lessons while living at home.

 

I think part of what this family is responding to is the idea that going to college is the only way to continue learning. Isn't that similar to the idea that a mother can teach her preschooler but not her school age child? I think if we go back a few years, the same response was given to people who homeschooled - especially into high school. (and the sons in the family don't appear headed to college either, so I suspect it does have more to do with self-education)

 

Having said all that, I don't intend to keep my daughter at home. But I respect and admire my friend and her choice. I have no problem following a different path than she has chosen.

 

I don't think anyone is judging anyone who feels college is just not in their path at all (males or females), but I know I have strong feelings about those that feel only males should have a higher education - not females.

 

I don't judge those who could go to college, but choose not to for a variety of reasons. But I think all should have the choice if any do.

 

While perhaps more extreme, the Taliban comes to mind otherwise and I have no love for their beliefs about educating the males, but not the females, either. I wouldn't care if someone were any religion or none at all. It's the pure inequality and lack of choice for the student involved based solely on their gender that annoys me.

 

I chose to stay home for years after my boys were born, but it was my choice to do so - not someone dictating it nor an inability to find a job due to lack of higher education in areas that matched my natural talents.

 

I'm a big believer in "live and let live," but I'm also a big believer in equality of all humans. The second trumps the first to me. I doubt I could be friends IRL with people who wouldn't let their daughters go to college (solely due to their gender). I would be steaming inside and feeling incredibly sorry for their daughters every time we came in contact.

[Hoggirl]

My response on these types of thoughts (of not having girls go to college) is, "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."

 

I know folks who believe that daughters should not go to college. It is absolutely a parent's right to decide that they do not want to pay for their child to go to college - male or female. No one is entitled to have their parents pay for their college. Or decide that they do not want to pay for their daughter to go a secular university, or that, they might pay for college, but not for living in a dorm. What bothers me about these scenarios is that I see parents doing things with their daughters that will limit their daughters' options in the future. B/c THEY have decided that their daughters are not going to college they significantly back off on the rigor of their home school curricula. What if the daughter later decides that she wants to got to college? That she will pay for it, borrow for it, whatever. If her parents have limited her academic exposure they have significantly curtailed her ability to make that decision as an adult, kwim? Yes, it would be possible to remediate, etc. but they have made choices on her behalf that will make her later life more difficult.

[kiana]

We've come across this attitude so much. Of course, no one says anything to my dh and I - they just tell my girls that they are "out of God's will" and "not submitting to authority."

 

 

 

Wait, what? So if your dh tells them they should go to college, they should *refuse* to submit to his authority, in order to submit to authority? This one really, really doesn't make sense!

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:My comments would be something along the lines of..."We've prayed about it, and this is His will."

 

I just wanted to clarify that nobody has said anything overtly disapproving of our choice. The questions have been very polite.

 

I guess I'm just worried about my own concerns about feeling "judged" and what I will say if that happens (esp. re: dorm issue). I hope & pray it doesn't.

 

In other news, dd had her Honors program interview today. She should hear back within a couple of weeks. We are so excited. :001_smile:

[distancia]

Wait...we're sending US troops over to Afghanistan to support the rights of the people against the Taliban. One of those "rights' we are fighting for is the right for females to an education.

 

Hmmm--what do your friends propose in lieu of an education?