To Aunty M and the others about preparations for economic bad times.

[FaithManor]

I'll probably have people get on this thread and then call me an alarmist or worse, an elitist because not everyone can afford to do what we are doing. I get that. I'm not an elitist. But, this is something that dh and I have been working towards for a while and the reason we moved away from the city and to this particular property. It is important to us. To the flaming population on this board, please understand that I in no way, think we are better than anyone else.

 

So, here is what we are working on:

 

We live in Michigan, so the first issue in economic crisis or natural disaster is "HEAT". Not water as some might think. The good thing about Michigan is that you are rarely more than a mile from a fresh water source that you could boil and drink and some brooks are clean enough to drink directly from - most do not freeze over in winter - such is the highly babbling creek situation in the Wolverine State. We converted this house to an exterior wood boiler system. My parents, two blocks down, heat on corn and wood pellets and this could also be converted to literally, most any dry grain.

 

Our wood boiler will heat the entire 4000.00 sq.ft. on just wood which we can either buy from local sources or chop down from my parents wood lot. They've got several trees down this year and so we'll be cutting them up in the spring. Also, wood boilers burn more efficiently and thoroughly than wood stoves or fireplaces so we can burn pine and wet wood...sap and creosote is not an issue. This pipes hot water into our in floor heating. This is much more efficient because it warms objects as well as just air and so the room stays warmer longer. Plus, your feet are nice and toasty.

 

Though we currently do all of our hot water through an on-demand vented propane water heater that costs us about $10.00 a month in propane maybe, at max, $20.00 for a family of six, we are looking to purchase a used "boiler buddy" for the boiler which diverts potable hot water into the plumbing system for whole house use. They are kind of expensive, so hence the word, used.

 

We have gas for the generator to operate the electronics on the well and the boiler. However, that would not be a sustainable option in a crisis of any length, so we hope to purchase two or three smaller solar panels. This will not begin to provide electricity to the house, but it will keep the fresh water running, the toilet flushing (a subject very near and dear to my heart), and heat going in the winter. We have five Aladin oil lamps and several gallons of lamp oil for lighting should we have a major time without eletricity. I keep a big box of pillar candles, different sizes, in the basement.

 

We have ducks, including two laying hens, and a few chickens will be added to the managerie this year in order to up our egg production. We raise two pigs per year in conjunction with another family who raises one(done on their farm and I do chores plus split the costs of the operation). Total investment for two weaned piglets, occasional supplemental feed, and butchering/wrapping: $250.00 for approximately 150 lbs pretty much organic pork. This is the cheapest meat animal for us to raise. We butcher them small because we like them lean.

 

We board a cow, Mabel, at a nearby organic dairy farm. We share Mabel with another family and our dear friend milks her and bottles her milk, plus does all of her disease testing along with his herd, for the modest sum of $15.00 a week. We take three to four gallons of milk per week, which is a very small amount of what she produces, and he keeps and sells the rest. This is what makes it worth his while. If dh were ever unemployed, he will continue this service in exchange for $15.00 each week's worth of work on his farm.

 

Dh is very, very fortunate to be on an international account for his firm. So, he works from home which reduces our driving costs, and because it is a huge global account based in countries that are in good financial shape, he is likely to work longer than many. We feel blessed by this.

 

We maintain a nice garden and my parents have an even larger one. We share the produce amongst the family and with our neighbors. Mom and I can, freeze, and dehydrate A LOT! We plan on doing even more. Dh is also learning how to hunt, something my dad already knows how to do well, and both gramps and DH fish. If unemployed, they would do a whole lot more than that. We are also going to try our hand at root cellaring. I've never been able to properly store root vegetables and squash, but we have an old coal shoot in the basement and dh thinks it's pretty much the right humidity and temperature. We are going to try it next year using layers of sawdust from properly dried hardwoods (no pines because of the nasty sap).

 

Mom and dad own seven acres and my dad is a lover of all things green. He's planting berry bushes, fast growing fruit tree varieties, and a much larger garden. The old stable is going to be repaired and they will keep meat chickens each spring that will be butchered every fall. Mom wants to grow a turkey. I said, "Okay but I'm not helping you take care of it. I've dealt with those monsters at the poultry show during county fair...they are like junk yard dogs. MEAN SUCKERS!"

 

Dh has built a small smoker for preserving meats if affording the meat packing facility is no longer an option. Currently, we buy salmon when it's on sale and smoke it......DIVINE!

 

We have a full cooking fire ring outdoors with a tripod plus we grill in our boiler in the winter. I will be getting an outdoor, adobe baking oven this summer in the backyard which will be made from the the huge pile of left over bricks we discovered in the basement plus fire bricks (Specially high heat resistant) that my dad sells in his fireplace shop. We'll have to experiment and see if I can bake in it during the winter.

 

I keep a well stocked medical supply cupboard including my favorite natural remedies and I recently put in a larger supply of bandaging items.

 

My apple trees are not growing well at all. I am going to purchase two more, plus a couple of cherry trees, and do more to amend the soil before I plant them. We have a fledgling grape vine, strawberries, and a newish aspargus plant. Mother in law has rhubarb and morel mushrooms which she graciously shares and we give her our garden produce.

 

The big issue is that we currently don't have the operation in place to grow our chicken/duck feed. Not such a big deal in the spring, summer, and fall because they are great foragers, but a huge issue in the winter. So, we need to work on growing the right grains and that will have to be done at my parents' house because we don't have enough land. It's going to take a while because some of the land needs to be cleared and it is a bit low in places. We'll have work to do to get it ready. But, I am looking for a farmer, who doesn't use pesticides and herbicides, to barter with.

 

We've collected silver coins to use for trade in goods. Not a lot...but some. We do have some businessmen who will have the means to exchange the coins for whatever the government is handing out for money, food ration cards, certificates for goods, etc.

 

That's as far as we have gotten. More to think about but we do what we can. It's a very different lifestyle for someone who thought that in college that she'd be a concert pianist (and that was a very real possibility for me) and have a nanny to raise her kids and cook to take care of the kitchen. You never know where life is going to take you.

 

Faith

[Chelle in MO]

Just one question--

 

Will you please adopt my family?

 

:D

[mommyoftwinboys]

Faithmanor-thanks so much for sharing. We are just getting started on this journey and have alot to learn.

 

How much did the wood boiler cost..do you mind me asking? Did you have the pipes for the floor installed after your home was built?

 

What is your pig set up like? Pretty basic or do you have them in a barn?

 

How did you learn everything? We feel overwhelmed on where to start. We have 4 acres of woods...it seems hard to figure out the most cost effective way of clearing the land..any suggestions?

[delaney]

You inspire me. I keep talking to DH about moving to somewhere more rural so we can work on this but the house is so upside down:glare:. Hopefully in the next few years my ideas will root in his brain and we can get out of here and start being more thoughtful about the direction this country is taking.

[love2read]

Thanks for sharing what you're doing. We've stocked up for awhile and also have alternative heat sources. We're mostly preparing for hyper-inflation although I'm convinced much of the country is already in an economic depression. However, I've come to realize that if/when something happens our preparations are not gong to help much. Those who are takers now will arm themselves and eliminate us so that they can move in. People had completely different moral standards during the last depression and I don't see myself using our hunting guns to keep people away.

[AuntieM]

I am soooooo hitting the "print" button, gift wrapping your post and setting it on my husband's desk! Thanks for your courage in sharing, Faith. Thanks for your time, too, in spelling it all out.

[DawnM]

We currently have 2.5 acres, but our house is still in a nicer area and higher priced than we now feel convicted about paying.

 

The house will be ready to go on the market Spring of 2012 and we hope to do much of what you are doing. Dh DOES have to go into work though, so that does limit the distance we can move.

 

Dawn

[prairiebird]

This is interesting, thanks! We are renting at this point, but there will always be the possibility out there to buy a smaller bit of land with a house on it. It would be a huge transition- both of us grew up in Chicago- but I am reading everything I can. And while we could never afford to buy in any of the counties we live near now, he is in a career path (elementary teacher) that while modest income, is located anywhere in the state.

[mcconnellboys]

Thanks for the info, Faith!

[AuntieM]

We currently have 2.5 acres, but our house is still in a nicer area and higher priced than we now feel convicted about paying.

 

The house will be ready to go on the market Spring of 2012 and we hope to do much of what you are doing. Dh DOES have to go into work though, so that does limit the distance we can move.

 

Dawn

 

So are you committed to selling even if the market doesn't look any brighter?

 

I tried to get dh to sell & downsize 2 years ago, before things really tanked. When I finally got him to agree, we looked around the neighborhood and realized that not only would we make no money (and may not even recoup our investment), but that there were and are still a number of homes on the market here that haven't moved for 6-9 months. So, we feel sort of stuck.

 

I will keep discussing it though, because I think there's a real benefit to getting out from under the debt load, even if our cash flow wouldn't change as a result.

[gaillardia]

:hurray:That is awesome! We wish we could afford to do even half of that. And in the spring you go morel hunting? And in the summer if it is hot you can run cold water through your radiant floor pipes to cool the house? If others think you are elitist they are just jealous.;)

[FaithManor]

Hi everyone,

 

The wood boiler cost us $1000.00 this is a very good deal. But, we bought it used and in wonderful shape. Check your rural areas for retired farmers, lumbermen, etc. many of them, due to age and infirmity and not have children close by willing to help them harvest, cut, and stack wood, are getting rid of their wood boilers and putting in corner burners. It's easier to raise the corn and through it in the silo than to do the wood. Normally, they run about $4500.00. Ours is an "indoors" boiler that we built a shed for. Dh built the shed himself so we had $500.00 in the shed and he built it big enough to hold a face cord of wood. That way, when a storm is coming, the boys (this is a good reason to have three boys LOL) can stack several days worth of wood indoors and then we can feed the boiler without having to stand outdoors in high winds.

 

Because we were gutting out half the structure (110 year old Methodist church), we laid the piping (about $750.00 worth of pex tubing), down (the river rock half of the church was built in 1950 and is a cement structure with rock over so it had cement floors and 14 ft. ceilings) on top of the cement, inside raised floor framing (we lost about 6-8 inches but when your ceilings are 14ft. you can afford it), and then laid an approved for radiant floor heating, engineered hardwood floor over top except the kitchen and bathroom which were sub-floored with plywood and then linoleum. In the old part of the "house", we only had to hang the tubing in the flooring rafters in the basement because that entire part was built over a nice basement and not just a "Michigan basement". We have had to do a lot of filling of cracks with spray in insulation in order to get the draftiness out. So, the pex tubing (another $750.00 worth) is coiled in the floor joists and then covered with wool insulation that is coated with a reflective covering so that the heat is "pushed" up to the floor and not into the basement. Both areas are then plumbed to two main manifolds (easily gotten to for maintenance) which cost $250.00 each. Now, I don't know what your costs would be. My dad is a heating and air conditioning man and an expert on alternative energies. His business is heating. So, we purchased our tubing and manifolds at his cost. I would suspect that retail would be double.

 

Also, we do have a propane boiler. We purchased this, used again, for $500.00 and it is probably new, $2500.00. It is also hooked into the system because in Michigan, your homeowner's insurance is astronomical if you heat with wood or solar and do not have a back up system. Insurance companies are very, very afraid of frozen pipes. So, if we want to travel, we don't have to pay someone to maintain our fire, but we do have to pay for propane - a lot cheaper than fuel oil for certain.

 

Now, on to the pigs. The pigs have a fenced area (approximately four feet high) that is about 20 x 100. This means that when they are small, they have grass, weeds, and bugs. When they are bigger, mid summer, it's pretty much all gone so we throw them grass clippings (bagged from mowing the lawn), pig weed from the horse pasture (oh my word, it's like catnip for porkers), left overs from the kitchen, sub-standard produce from the local Mennonite Store (who is happy to have us haul it off), and if necessary, some all natural but not certified pig feed from an Amish Farmer. Our pigs have an old lean too that is in somewhat decent shape - as in not in danger of falling down - but I wouldn't house my prize milk cow in it either) with straw for a place to get in out of the elements but for pigs in the summer, a simple tarped roof area would do for shade, and they have a wading pool dug into the ground that we top off every day. They make sure it gets good and muddy and roll in it. Pigs don't sweat so this is how they cool themselves off when they don't live in the woods under perpetual shade.

 

The pig operation is done two miles northwest of us at a friend's farm. Our half acre in town would bring protest from the neighbors though they could not do anything about it due to zoning, another reason we moved her. We are in an township and this town of 225 people is too small to be incorporated. Therefore, zoning is LIBERAL. There is also a for single family food exemption for the raising of animals on non-agriculturally designated property - this is a very, I'll do what I want with my yard thank you very much kind of area - and there is 4-H exemption because raising animals and crops is considered good for children. But, you can't be abusive to the animal. So, when the guy in town tried to keep a horse on a quarter acre and had to start feeding her hay in summer after only one week, he was told to move her. Whatever you do with your animals in town, they must be well cared for if you keep them on a small amount of land. No one blinks an eyelash at my ducks, my sister-in-laws chickens, the bottle fed lambs that run around the yard in the early spring before being returned to the farm, etc. But, don't abuse or neglect a farm animal...

 

We decided, in the interest of good neighbor relations, that we'd NOT keep the piggies in town. It kind of makes me happy to...no smell. Not that our pigs are very smelly. But still, on a breezy day in the heat of summer, there is an aroma even though we compost and turn their dung corner. It's a quick drive for me to do chores twice per day.

 

As for learning all of this, first of all, DH is a jack of all trades. He may be a database architect, but he's a plumber, electrician, carpenter....if he doesn't know how to do it, he reads and finds someone who does. His daddy was a handyman and taught him well. I came from a tough breed. My dad is the originial MOUNTAIN man...he grew up fishing, hunting, and growing food. His mamma preserved food, my mom's mom preserved food, and mom my learned tons in her home ec classes in high school back when they actually taught that subject so seriously it was practically a college major! I learned from her. But, only in the past few years. In high school, I was too busy being Miss Perfecto Pianist to be bothered with trifling domestic things. When I got married, I could hardly cook an edible thing. Poor DH! He knew his way around a kitchen far better than I did. Mom snickers now when I stand in the kitchen snapping beans or processing tomatoes. I think it's a big HA-HA for her because she spend most of my teen years trying to get me involved in domestic skills, and my dad was of the, "She just needs to practice the piano and not worry about that other stuff," mentality. Now I end up running to mommy with my tail between my legs, "Mom, how do you______?" She was also a master seamstress and I didn't know what the word seam was. When dd was born, I wanted boutique looking dresses and couldn't afford them. Guess who spent a lot of time on the phone (we lived in Oregon at the time) asking, "Mom what does the pattern mean when it says_______ and why do I have to measure to line up with the grain of the fabric and why on earth is this seam so crooked?" She's a good mom and didn't rub my face in it much.

 

I also subscribe to Backwoods Home, Countryside, and Hobby Farm Home magazines. The first two are completely practical how to guides. The second is more of a, how to do something with what you have even if you can't get very self-reliant at all type magazine with really good recipes and excellent veterinary advice. It's kind of inspirational because it highlights more of the people just trying to make the best, good changes they can even if that's only a container of tomatoes and peppers on the porch or your apartment balcony. We purchased the Country Wisdom and Know How book as well as Backyard Homesteading - How to grow all the food for your family on a 1/4 acre.

 

We made the decision to leave a "nicer area" and purchase a property that needed total renovation in an area that was agricultural. We left city utilities and all of the comforts associated with the city. We are one hour from a mall and a Barnes and Nobles. We traded down, at least in a lot of people's eyes, and then did a huge amount of back breaking labor that probably took a decade off dh's life, for what is now a TRADE UP in the eyes of everyone who sees my house.

 

Next post, I'll talk about my portable duck runs. We have coyotes in our area and lots of roaming dogs. We want free range quality chickens but we can't let them free range. So, this is how we get the best of both worlds.

 

Faith

[catalinakel]

Wow. Very impressive. You are blessed in so many ways, not the least being your ability to work very hard. Good for you and yours. You should write your story and try to sell it as a book. It is very inspiring.

[mommyoftwinboys]

Thank you so much Faithmanor for such an in-depth, thorough post!

[justamouse]

.

Edited January 12, 2011 by justamouse
never mind. I realized how this thread came about.

[DawnM]

No, not committed at any cost. Committed to try! We bought in 2005 and I think we can at least break even (which kills me because DH poured so much time into fixing up this house), but we both think we can re-coup that by selling lower and buying lower.

 

It may not happen....we will see.

 

We did refi to a 15 year loan and got a much better interest rate. But I hate the high payments.

 

Dawn

 

So are you committed to selling even if the market doesn't look any brighter?

 

I tried to get dh to sell & downsize 2 years ago, before things really tanked. When I finally got him to agree, we looked around the neighborhood and realized that not only would we make no money (and may not even recoup our investment), but that there were and are still a number of homes on the market here that haven't moved for 6-9 months. So, we feel sort of stuck.

 

I will keep discussing it though, because I think there's a real benefit to getting out from under the debt load, even if our cash flow wouldn't change as a result.

[Wildiris]

So Faith what happens when there is no longer a propane delivery? Canning, especially dehydrating, take lots of power. Aladin oil lamps are a passable alternative to DC lights, but truth be told candles are much better.

 

Not to be the alarmist, but thinking about a flush toilet is not going to be high on the list of necessities when and if economic bad times come. A time without fuel or food is that in our future?

 

Knowing native plants, berries and the medicinal plants properties of plants would be worth knowing. Smoking meat and butchering are worthy skills. Knowing how to skin a squirrel might come in handy too. Life away from town and off the grid is no easy, glossy magazine life of leisure. I'm going to get concerned when there is no fuel for the chainsaw and I have to collect acorns and berries for food. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

[FaithManor]

Wildiris,

 

We are not remotely dependent on propane. In my originial post and the subsequent post, I indicated that we heat with wood and that solar panels will run electronics on this. This is a radiant floor heating system using water which is generated from a deep water well in a high water table area so not likely to run dry even in a dire dry conditions.

 

I also indicated that dh and the boys own hunting guns and are learning to hunt. We live in a township with less than one thousand people and a gigantic deer herd. We have huge flocks of pheasant and quail for eating as well. Additionally, dh is a fisherman and we have lots of streams full of bass and catfish. To be honest, eating squirrel isn't all that likely but dh knows how to process them. Id' consider frying the raccoon that keeps running off with my mother in laws bird feeder and the ground hog that decimated my broccoli met his end though we didn't put him in the stew pot.

 

The "toilet" issue was really a haha..if we need an outhouse, he'll build one. But, I find the comment about food and fuel snarky when I made it clear that not only can we hunt and fish and we have a huge garden and my parents have one larger than ours, but that we also raise pigs for food and ducks and chickens for eggs. Your assumption that I need a huge amount of electricity in order to accomplish the preserving of this food, is just that, an assumption. I may use electricity now, however, we have plans in place for not having it though we are not off grid at the present time and don't plan on being off grid unless forced to....we currently don't have the money to invest in a solar system that would run the whole house. So, if the system crashes, we'll be off grid like everyone else. The only difference is we will be able to heat from my parents extensive wood lot and the minimal electronics for that will be run off solar. Plus, I won't have to haul water because we can generate enough solar to run the well pump. The others in town with no corn burners or wood stoves (which do not require electronics) will not be able to get their furnaces working...this alone is a little scary living in an area that has seen ice storms that last for a week and sub-zero temperatures to go with the power outages. Even before we wanted to be more self-reliant, we always kept an emergency source of heat handy. The folks up in the U.P. of Michigan are actually quite a bit more self-reliant than most of the inhabitants of lower Michigan. Much, much, much more independent of the system.

 

I do need to do more with a medicinal herb garden. My dad already harvests edible herbs and "weeds" from state land near here...fiddlehead ferns (which cook and taste much like asparagus), wintergreen berries, crabapples, blueberries, blackberries, etc. Not only do I have a stockpile of medicinal herbs, but my sister-in-law two blocks away, is a master herbalist and harvests all of her medicinal herbs from the wild and makes tinctures, salves, etc. We can't be experts in everything, but we can pool our resources. She handle a lot of the medicinal stuff, we'll handle a lot of the food stuff.

 

I also mentioned that we weren't dependent on the oil lamps because I have a huge box of candles, and hurricane globes for magnifying the light. When I say huge, I mean a wardrobe moving box. My dd knows how to make both soy, beef tallow, and bees wax candles. My dad will be raising bees on his property as of this spring.

 

My canner will work over an open fire. Yes, it will take watching carefully and there will be a learning curve, but women were canning with zinc lids and rubber seals before there was electricity. We have screens for dehydrating in the sun, not everything we dehydrate even gets popped into the electric dehydrator now so doing it in the sun for all of it is doable. I currently possess 1000 lids and rings.

 

If I presented our life as somehow "glossy" I am sorry to do so. It is work, work, work, work and no one who isn't prepared for the elbow grease had better try it. But, is life ever not hard work? Most people are completely 100% dependent on the system. They will die without government assistance - most are blissfully unaware of this fact. They believe if they are paying their bills and buying groceries, they are taking care of themselves without assistance. This is just not so...city utilities are owned and operated by the government, most urban grocery stores only have 24 hours worth of food on hand. That's the unfortunate reality. If the system doesn't keep spinning, this is going to make the Great Depression look like a vacation! Since we are in an area where we can make a plan to weather natural disasters and economic depression and we have the will power to do so, we are. I don't think most Americans would ever choose this. So be it. I was asked what we are doing and I shared. It's not perfect and we have work to do.

 

If nothing ever happens, we aren't any worse off for having been prepared and our kids have learned valuable life skills. Given the evidence before us, mathematically the probablility is very, very high that the current system and the social programs that assist people in need are going to crash leaving hundres of thousands of millions of people going cold and hungry. Not only do I not want this to happen to my family if I can do anything about it, but I want to be able to share with others as much as I can.

 

As to your question, "Is there a future without out food or fuel ahead?" I can't answer that for certain. But, if you look at the rise and fall of civilizations in the course of history and the key indicators that the "empire" was going to crash, we have allowed history to repeat itself instead of learning from those mistakes. All fiat based currencies for ALL of history have failed. When we were taken off the gold standard that was a big mistake! When we were taken off the silver standard, that was an even bigger mistake on top of an already very awful mistake! We are now a fiat currency system with no backing. Our money is worth pennies on the dollar on the international market. We are 14 trillion dollars in debt and as of February, will not be able to even make interest payments on those loans. We are very close to defaulting and if we do so, we will not be eligible to borrow operating expenses for the government. The Feds have given "emminent domain" of our oil reserves, gold and silver mines, and National Forests to China as collateral on these loans. If we don't pay, China has the right to strip us of these resources. If we default, the International Monetary Fund also gets control over our treaties, our foreign policy, and our currency. That's the deal if you borrow from them.

 

The constitution of the United States says that it is encumbant on the government to store enough grains (we do have federal underground facilities for this) and dehydrated foods to feed the citizenry in event of famine. As of today, what was once a paltry 24.1 million bushels of grain and barely any dehydrated veggies is now down to 2.7 million. There is not enough food in federal reserve to feed the people. During the Great Depression, the federal grain reserves were HUGE. This is how people in urban areas were fed. This is how the troops were fed during WWII. Not only was there grain but dehydrated butter, cheese, meat products, veggies, and fruits. The citizenry that were unable to provide their own food, were issued ration cards (or before the war, there were federal and state bread and soup lines and "scrip", ie. coupons good for purchase of specific amounts of specific products - kind of like food stamps - was issued which could then be used in federal and state stores.) The US government not only was functioning in the black and had money in reserve, but it was still on a silver standard so our money was worth something other than the paper it was printed on! Now the feds sold most of the grain and foods in reserve for cash to foreign countries, although some has been given as aid to Haiti and other hard hit regions - not as much as you'd like to think. This is parallel to the fall of the Roman Empire when it had a guaranteed food program for the poor and then stopped stockpiling grain. There was rioting in the streets and anger from the peasants when food was no longer available because the senate had to bribe barbarian hordes to leave them alone with the last of the gold it had in the treasury. Our nation again, is on a failing fiat currency, is so far in the red that it is bankrupt, has mortgaged our natural resources to the IMF and China, and we no longer have reserves to feed the people. Even if they managed to stay afloat, they can't care for the people in the event of war or natural disaster if that occurs in more than one major locale. One of the key things that concerns me is that China is desperate for oil and Congress has used the federal oil reserves and the Alaskan reserve as collateral on loans. If they default, we will not be able to purchase oil on credit because our credit will be junked and we won't have our own oil. This means folks, that all of us that live in cold climates, won't have access to heating fuels.

 

Unfortunately, this nation is no longer in a position to take care of itself.

 

Therefore, I believe that, unlike the Great Depression, our government cannot do for its citizens what it once did and therefore, being cold and going hungry is going to be a real possibility for a number of individuals.

 

Faith

[DawnM]

Faith,

 

Your house sounds much like what DH would LOVE to build! We want solar panels and we want self sufficiency for our house. But the deterrent has been the cost as we look at how much it costs to implement/build.

 

We have considered buying a house that needs fixing and implementing some of these things as we go.

 

Can I ask a few questions and could you either post or PM me some answers.

 

How much does it cost to build a more self sufficient house vs. a pre-constructed conventional house? Did you find it was an huge difference? Did you buy a pre-existing house or build? Forgive me if you answered this already, I am trying to school and type!

 

Dawn

[MomOfOneFunOne]

So are you committed to selling even if the market doesn't look any brighter?

 

I tried to get dh to sell & downsize 2 years ago, before things really tanked. When I finally got him to agree, we looked around the neighborhood and realized that not only would we make no money (and may not even recoup our investment), but that there were and are still a number of homes on the market here that haven't moved for 6-9 months. So, we feel sort of stuck.

 

I will keep discussing it though, because I think there's a real benefit to getting out from under the debt load, even if our cash flow wouldn't change as a result.

 

This is kind of where we are. When we thought we'd like to sell and move somewhere more rural, we started looking around but b/f we found anything, everything went south.

 

My husband has a great job but he works in a volitile industry (he he: oil and gas) in which companies can be bought/sold (read: ppl can be laid off) at any moment. So, while that hasn't happened and he has reason to hope and believe that it won't any time soon, he feels that a risky move right now is a bad idea.

 

B/c he is wise and leads our family well, I wouldn't dream of gainsaying him but I really want to move.

 

On the other hand, it is so convenient to live in the city. We have access to so many activities and opportunities that our rural friends can't come in for. I like that . . . but I would be willing to give it up.

 

And even living in such an urban setting, we have chickens and are considering getting bees. I can and put by but haven't gardened successfully yet. I had a garden but the summer heat prevented much of a harvest. Being a new gardener, I just thought that I was doing something wrong. Then, we went to a gardening seminar and found out it was the heat and there were things we could have done . . . well, I still have hope for this year. That's good.

[Wyndie]

I want to know exactly where you live so I can come be your next door neighbor. :D

 

Thank you for taking the time to post all of this. It really is wise to be self-sufficient and I am envious of your ability to do so. I am hopeful that my own DH will someday hear what I am saying in this area. My father is willing but he lives too far away... although they are working on getting closer (Geographically speaking).

 

I appreciate the enormous amount of work you have put into all of that and for sharing it.

[jenL]

Faith, I love your life!!! Dh and I have been talking about moving toward this type of lifestyle recently; however, we are pretty much stuck until the housing market improves (even a tiny improvement could prove helpful for us). We currently live in a suburban neighborhood, a choice it took us a while to make because we really prefer more privacy and land, but we did it because we *thought* it would be right to raise our kids in a neighborhood where they would go to school with their peers. Funny how we were led to homeschooling, and now we're in suburbia which we despise! Oh well, I'm grateful that we even have a home, so we will survive.

 

Your post is inspiring though, and for now, I'm going to live vicariously through you. :D

[FaithManor]

DawnM this will be split into two posts because of length.

 

I'd be happy to answer your questions and you can PM me if you like. But, I'll post what I can now so others can read it.

 

The property we currently possess is unique, which really helps. First, it is a 110 year old Methodist Church building. It is the church I attended as a child, was baptized in, my parents were married here, my aunts and uncles were married here, etc. IT HAS HUGE SENTIMENTAL ATTACHMENT FOR ME. When the church family, aging rapidly and not teeming with young people, could no longer afford to keep the facility and it was deeded to a U of M church eight miles away. They in turn could not figure out what do with it, didn't want to heat and insure it, and decided to get rid of it. They sold it, on land contract because though it had a single unit men's room and ladie's room but not showers, and a barefly passable church kitchen, it wasn't actually inhabitable as it was unless you treated it like a huge hunting cabin with stained glass windows. LOL! So, it was listed, before the bubble burst for the value of the the half acre lot, the 4000 square feet of space but as something that needed total renovation, and the well and septic...developed land. The people who bought it on land contract, put $5000.00 down, made two payments, had a really awful family emergency call them away to Oregon, and abandoned it. They'd started tearing some things out, which made it worse for the church to get rid of it. My dad went through it with us and we described our dreams. Big garden, solar panels (at the peak our roof is 40 feet and above the treeline in town (this town was burned to the ground twice in the late 1800's so the oldest trees are relative newbies as trees go), and wood heat. Some energy self-sufficiency. But, we new we couldn't be totally solar...the roof does not face south - east west and in Michigan, that means not being able to totally depend on solar. Dad went through the whole thing with us, step by step, what we would have to do for the heating system, building codes, etc. We put together a construction plan and talked it through with the head building inspector for the county. He was sooooooo helpful and sweet...I know some can be jerks, but he was wonderful! Then we checked the zoning to make sure the smaller farm animals would not be a problem. Building codes were reasonable, no zoning restrictions on the small animals, no city utilities we could be forced to connect to, and an uncorporated town with a tonwship population so low, that by state consitution, the government cannot mandate city utilities.

 

Not only was I emotionally attached to the property, having so many beautiful memories of Sunday morning church, Sunday School, church events, Christmas Eve services with the HUGE antique once gas, now electric, lights lighting up the night sky through gold and purple stained glass, but it had the necessary requirements for what we wanted to do and it was cheap enough that we could afford the payment on it while we continued living in our other house (25 minutes away) and renovated. So, we had two mortgage payments for three years. We borrowed money from dh's 401K, which we pay back to our account at 6% interest which was more than the investments were actually making at the time, for the working capital for the project. We made an offer of half what the church had originally asked and it was accepted on a land contract with 10% down.

 

Our situation was 100% better than building at $100.00 per square foot to build (at that time) not including a well, septic, or the land itself, this was by far a cheaper option. Because of reasonable building codes and the fact that we weren't altering the exterior structure, we were able to pull remodeling permits only, not all out construction permits, which meant the county could not mandate that everything be brought up to code immediately, nor could they stop us from occupying it. We would not need an occupancy permit.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

2nd half of reply,

 

So, since we purchased it in February dring bitter weather and it was too cold to camp out in (plus the first order of work was gutting the existing bathrooms and church kitchen) we slept at mom and dad's. They thought this was a hoot. Dad helped when he could, which was a huge amount on the heating system, and occasionally in the evenings during contruction because he still owns and operates his own business. My brother came when he could - he was soooooo excited to have DH living two blocks around the corner....they are very close - my grown nephew came when he could, etc. The kids hauled rubble and that was hard work for them..dd, a teen, was wonderful assistance, diligent and a fast learner, great with a hammer and a miter saw! but the poor boys were only 5, 6.5, and 7.5...sometimes they had to all three lift together on a small box of plaster pieces to get it out to the dumpster. They did it! I was so proud of them but it was work for my mom and I to keep them safe on a construction site and sometimes, she'd just take them home and play with them.

 

Mom was wonderful! She fed the work crews every weekend, helped with the kids, washed our clothes, etc. She was so such a blessing! Dad and dh were dubbed, "superman and son". That first winter and spring we got all of the gutting done. This was half of the structure. The other half, with the 110 year old wood floors, antique lights, stained glass windows, and 20 foot ceilings, was not being gutted but 50% off the 30 x 50 sanctuary was being converted to bedrooms. But, we were preserving all of the historical parts. By the beginning of August, Dh had built all of the walls which I helped him hold in place while he nailed. By November, all of the ceiling joists which would also be the floor joists of the Loft area above the downstairs bedroom that overlooks into the sanctuary/living room (30 x 25), were laid. Dad, nephew, and my brother helped with that. A dear friend of dh's from work, who has a contractor's license and built his own home, came and helped run all of the new wiring. I learned how to strip insulation on wires, twist, and cap at the outlets. My hands were sore when I was done, but it was satisfactory to be able to help that way. We then, in an effort to use as many sustainable products and non-toxic products, used wool batting for insulation which has turned out to be far better than fiberglass and NO ITCHING! My mom and I put up a lot of the insulation. Dh did all of the plumbing but because he tied into the existing lines, he again, did not have to get a plumbing contractor which is EXPENSIVE! He plumbed everything, we laid the floor framing in the back half of the house, the river rock edition with cement floors, he and I after some coaching from my dad, laid the pex tubing and insulation, and then we called for and passed our rough inspections. YEAH! Sub-flooring was laid and then came the dreaded DRYWALL! Low and behold, God blessed us with wonderful friends. A group of handymen from the church, headed by a contractor who attends our church, showed up as a team. They all took time off from work to do it too! In three days, ALL of the drywall for 900 square feet was hung and mudded. Some sanding and the second mudding was started. It was extraordinary. Mom and I cooked a feast for them and sent them all home with a basket of baked goods. Dh had a blast working with "the guys" and honestly, it sounded like they were all having a good time. Dh, dd, and I sanded, mudded, and then did the third mudding and sanding. She helped me paint the entire area. By that summer's end, we had the linoleum laid, the bedrooms completed, the floors sanded and refinished, the wood flooring in the new part laid ( again, three of dh's co-workers came and helped with that while they all talked computer geek talk), the kitchen cabinets hung and appliances working, and a gorgeous, big bathroom up and running and my new front load washing machine and commercial dryer, humming. We had already begun camping out in the house on the weekends, but now we were able to move.

 

Then the housing bubble began it's decay. We hurried to list the other house for sale and we were able to break even. We had hoped to get enough out of the sale to pay for both mortgages and be debt free (we had about $65,000.00 equity and it's appraisal value was $115,000.00 dollars. But, we only got $48,000.00 for it due to the real estate disaster and that was enough to pay closing costs and the remainder of the principal on that loan. We walked away with $108.00!) But, we were free of it, didn't have to pay to get rid of it, and were in a lot better position than most. So, we still owe $18,000.00 on this but should have that taken care of in 18 months as we are going to double our payments.

 

The first winter living in it, we heated with propane. Ouch...it was expensive. But, dh was exhausted, my dad was exhausted, and they needed a break. Rushing to get the boiler shed built, getting the pex tubing and insulation hung in the old part, getting the boiler up and running, and cutting and stacking nine full cord of wood, just wasn't in the cards unless the men I love were going to kill themselves. So, propane it was. The winter rest started nicely and then the septic backed up. We had it pumped and it worked for three weeks and then backed up again. Argh....so, dad, nephew, and dh, working in the cold before Christmas, dug up the line and found that our humongous sugar maple had spread it's tentacles into the pipes. The back breaking use of chains saws, hack saws, axes and unfortunately, some toxic root killing chemicals later, we had a working septic again. Finally, they were able to rest. Then in the summer of that year (one year ago this past summer), dh, dd, oldest ds, and myself built the wood shed, bought wood, the boys and I stacked nine cord, and dad, dh, and the boiler man expert from a neighboring village (whom we paid $20.00 an hour for nine hours of work) got the boiler up and running. It worked wonderfully, and our oldest ds has become a pro at building and maintaining a good wood fire. Well, it worked beautifully for ONE MONTH OF WINTER!...the damper stuck open, we didn't realize it, the temperature hit 250 degrees, and this caused a blow out from the pressure, in the main line outdoors which leads to the house. I didn't have the heart to ask dh and dad to work in the bitter cold, dig it up, replace the pipe, and begin again. So, we heated with propane again. During an odd winter warm up last late February, dad dug it up, found the damage, replaced the pipe, and built a fire while dh and I were taking the kids on a three day weekend, winter break! Dear dad! He really is a superman. This will be our first full winter heating only with wood. We purchased 350 gallons of propane at $1.79 per gallon to fire the propane boiler as our back-up plan. Except for the itty, bitty bit that the on-demand water heater uses, we haven't touched it so far.

 

How much it would cost to build a similar set-up is so hard to say. On the coasts, I would think it would be horridly expensive. In Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, the Dakotas, maybe not so much. Though construction supplies have gone up in price, in Michigan, labor costs for construction have gone down due to no demand. Many contractors are desperate for work...it might take longer to get it done because they aren't going to do the job with more than a tiny handful of people, but it might be still quite a bit more expensive than in other states. I can't really say. We paid $35,000.00 for this place and put $25,000.00 in supplies and sweat equity into it. We still do not use the living room. But, that will change this spring. Dh has the tubing hung and the manifold for hooking it into the heating system is sitting in the basement waiting to be installed. We are putting money away for a new roof, which dh and our super crew of family members plus ds will do themselves on dh's summer vacation, (thankfully, it does not need more than new tiles) and if there is time and money, we'll get the stairwell built to the loft so two of the three boys can move up. If not, we'll continue to access it for storage only by our big green construction ladder. When completed, we'll have 4000 square feet not including the basement. The entry way, under where the bellfry once was, needs some serious work. I don't know when we'll get to that but I'd like to think soon, because I'd love to start using the front entrance for more than storage. This is wear the really nice coat racks, tile floor, and boot/shoe storage is and it would be nice not to come and go from the kitchen directly into the dining room. But, baby steps forward.

 

All in all, I really don't think anyone could build this for $60,000.00. Framing a structure and laying a foundation is just a huge and massive cost. If you could find an acre or two (which works well for hobby farming), in a zoning friendly area, with an old farmhouse or other home that needs work on it, would be the way to go. Just two things, make sure it is structurally sound, you don't want to replace floor joists, rotting roof joists (which requires either a crew of very knowledgeable Amish boys or a crane), crumbling bricks, water damage in the walls, and you want, want, want a good well and septic already existing which allows you to camp on the property while you work and saves about $20,000.00 in cost.

 

Hope this information helps.

Faith - off to hand a bucket to the one that says, I feel queasy.

[elegantlion]

Faith, thank you so much for sharing!! We've recently downsized our house to a place I could conceivably call home for many years. It's a small lot but we're going to work on some self-sufficiency, we already have a fruit bearing pear tree in the yard (that's more than we've had before). Also we are close to my parents who have some acreage we can work with.

 

I'm also going to print this out and share with my dh.

[MarinesWife]

I have loved reading everything and have shared it with my husband too. tHank you so much for sharing!

[BBG580]

Wow, that sounds lovely Faithr! Your house and plans sound so special.

 

I just want to add that a lot of self-sufficiency can happen in the suburbs or even in the city. It obviously can't be achieved exactly the way the OP described her plan and experiences but there are options for those of us who cannot or do not want to move from a more urban area. :)

[Wyndie]

Wow, that sounds lovely Faithr! Your house and plans sound so special.

 

I just want to add that a lot of self-sufficiency can happen in the suburbs or even in the city. It obviously can't be achieved exactly the way the OP described her plan and experiences but there are options for those of us who cannot or do not want to move from a more urban area. :)

 

Do tell. I can't imagine doing much to be self-sufficient here in the burbs.

[blessed3x]

:bigear:

[BBG580]

Do tell. I can't imagine doing much to be self-sufficient here in the burbs.

 

http://www.pathtofreedom.com is the best place to start.

 

I also love the book Fresh Food From Small Spaces:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fresh-Food-Small-Spaces-Square-Inch/dp/160358028X

 

You can use a pellet stove, line dry clothes on a retractable indoor clothesline, make almost all your own food from scratch, urban garden using intensive gardening techniques, can and preserve foods you grow, utilize the library and mass transit much more easily than a rural dweller and so on. You can also winter and summer proof your house and learn to live with a lot less energy. I cannot raise my own chickens so I get eggs and milk and some meat from a local family. We also "stockpile" some staples (not years worth of food but at least 3 months of rice, beans and flour) and are capable of living without meat or dairy.

 

There's more but my son just climbed in my lap for a book, so I'm off for now.

[Melissa in Australia]

well done Faith,

We live a self sufficient life. we have 10 acres, grow all our own dairy and meat. we just chopped up our pigs yesterday. We have gravity fed water from our own water tanks the water is collected of our roof ( very common in rural Australia). we have a solar hot water service that provides our hot water. I use a combustion stove for cooking and heating. I live in a temperate climate, so don't need more heating than that. We get all our wood form our own woodlot. we have a huge veggie patch, bigger than a tennis court, and an orchid with over 40 trees.

Our new projects for this year are bees, we caught a swarm in November, and solar electricity.We are just about to get solar electricity, but it will be fed back into the grid, with the electricity company paying us for producing it.

[gardening momma]

Just one question--

 

Will you please adopt my family?

 

:D

I was thinking I'd like to live near Faith and learn. :001_smile:

[Chelle in MO]

I was thinking I'd like to live near Faith and learn. :001_smile:

 

That would be nice, but so much easier to just be adopted by her! ;)

[BBG580]

I was thinking I'd like to live near Faith and learn. :001_smile:

 

Me too! She's sounds wonderful and her life sounds very rich and fulfilled. :001_smile:

[FaithManor]

Dear wannabe daughters, Please note that while I'd love to have you here and yes my life is rich and fulfilling, it is not glamorous!

 

You do have to struggle to load piggies onto the trailer to go to the meat packing plant. I have taught my children to sing, "I'm going to eat you little piggies" and to refer to them as ham bone, bacon, and sausage so as not to get too attached. I actually get in there with the little grunting porkers and turn pig dung which DOES NOT SMELL GOOD! Pig Dung would have been the ultimate "odorant" in Monster's Inc.

 

I hate dirt under my nails and yet, I harvest veggies and despite gloves, manage to get dirt under my nails. I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE Cooking and spend hours teaching lessons while babysitting the canner. I have to watch DH shoot the very, very cute ground hog that I came to loathe because of his wanton destruction of dh's beautiful broccoli plants. I can venison...raw cut up, cute deer...seriously, it's not a glamorous life. I take my sons, the Marx Brothers, and acting as an army drill sergeant, work with them to stack nine full cords of wood - a cord is 4 ft deep, 4 ft tall, and 8 ft wide before snow flies. I baby, pamper, spoil, and otherwise completely indulge a pair of non-cooperative apple trees until I feel like I'm the mother of two fruity delinquents who will always be worthless! I stare at the apple corer and peeler with complete disdain, when I've recently lost my mind and purchased two bushels of honeycrips apples to turn into applesauce and apple chips. I spend days wishing that my family could subsist on popcorn alone. I think chickens are the STUPIDEST CREATURES on the planet and all roosters are hateful, hateful, hateful which is why I refuse to own one, which is why I will never have chicks and will be dependent on nice Mr. Amish Farmer to supply them.

 

It's wonderful in it's own ways but it is not romantic. So, be very, very careful about asking to be adopted, you might find yourself turning pig dung, chasing a wayward escaped duck, stacking wood, and staring at canner loads of beans.

 

Faith

Edited January 12, 2011 by FaithManor

[gardening momma]

It's wonderful in it's own ways but it is not romantic. So, be very, very careful about asking to be adopted, you might find yourself turning pig dung, chasing a wayward escaped duck, stacking wood, and staring at canner loads of beans.

I grew up (at least my elementary years) in an old house that had a wood burning furnace. Dad chopped wood and we slid the wood into the basement down a long, wide board through the basement window. Dad would stack it in the basement later. We didn't raise pigs, but I did observe a pig butchering once, and helped scrape off the pig's hair. We raised rabbits for food for a while. Prior to living at that house, we raised chickens, but I don't remember that far back. We had a rooster which always attacked mom whenever she went to collect eggs. We had a huge garden and grew a lot of our own food. Mom did a lot of canning. I have her canner and she said she'd come down & help me when I need her. I haven't produced enough from my garden yet to can. I need a few more garden beds (we have a small suburban lot).

Edited January 12, 2011 by gardening momma

[catalinakel]

Dear wannabe daughters, Please note that while I'd love to have you here and yes my life is rich and fulfilling, it is not glamorous!

 

You do have to struggle to load piggies onto the trailer to go to the meat packing plant. I have taught my children to sing, "I'm going to eat you little piggies" and to refer to them as ham bone, bacon, and sausage so as not to get too attached. I actually get in there with the little grunting porkers and turn pig dung which DOES NOT SMELL GOOD! Pig Dung would have been the ultimate "odorant" in Monster's Inc.

 

I hate dirt under my nails and yet, I harvest veggies and despite gloves, manage to get dirt under my nails. I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE Cooking and spend hours teaching lessons while babysitting the canner. I have to watch DH shoot the very, very cute ground hog that I came to loathe because of his wanton destruction of dh's beautiful broccoli plants. I can venison...raw cut up, cute deer...seriously, it's not a glamorous life. I take my sons, the Marx Brothers, and acting as an army drill sergeant, work with them to stack nine full cords of wood - a cord is 4 ft deep, 4 ft tall, and 8 ft wide before snow flies. I baby, pamper, spoil, and otherwise completely indulge a pair of non-cooperate apple trees until I feel like I'm the mother of two fruity delinquents who will always be worthless! I stare at the apple corer and peeler with complete disdain, when I've recently lost my mind and purchased two bushels of honeycrips apples to turn into applesauce and apple chips. I spend days wishing that my family could subsist on popcorn alone. I think chickens are the STUPIDEST CREATURES on the planet and all roosters are hateful, hateful, hateful which is why I refuse to own one, which is why I will never have chicks and will be dependent on nice Mr. Amish Farmer to supply them.

 

It's wonderful in it's own ways but it is not romantic. So, be very, very careful about asking to be adopted, you might find yourself turning pig dung, chasing a wayward escaped duck, stacking wood, and staring at canner loads of beans.

 

Faith

 

All that, and she can write too! Will you marry me?:tongue_smilie:

[FaithManor]

Well Catalinakel,

 

Thanks for the proposal...it's a nice idea. Dh snorted and says, "I am not a proponent of bigamy and I'm not divorcing you and raising the Marx Brothers by myself!" So, I'm sorry to inform you that I am off the market.

 

Just so you know, there is a dark side to me.....ask some of the people in the "What government department cuts would you make" and "What about the minimum wage" thread. I'm a constitutionalist through and through...this can be very vexing for some! Oh, and ......when I can't handle life, I hide in my room and eat chocolate.

 

Faith

[DawnM]

Faith,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to give such a detailed answer. I really appreciate it. I am only now responding because I didn't read it in detail earlier and didn't want to respond until I had.

 

We do wish to buy land, have a garden (a substantial one), fruit trees, a greener house that is far more self sufficient, and some subsistence living. We do not want to move into the middle of nowhere to do it! I should say we CAN'T move into the middle of nowhere.....DH's jobs are in larger cities, so moving too far out is not an option.

 

But, I think if we stay in this area (close to Charlotte), what we want is still within reach.....we just need to move a little further out or a little further into a different area.

 

Ultimately, our immediate goal is to be debt free. I WISH we had had this mentality 6 years ago when we moved to this area. But, we moved here from Los Angeles and our thinking was much different at that time. Now we have paid off everything except the house, and we have about 1/3 of our house paid for. But the payments are high (we have a 15 year loan) and overall we want something PAID OFF within about 7-8 years if at all possible.

 

Living with NO debt at all and at least a year or two savings, AND some subsistence living would ease our stress tremendously. Even a year or two of savings and a very low property payment would ease our stress tremendously.

 

We, like you, figure we will not make anything on the sale of our house and hope to at least break even to what we paid. We may lose some, but we are willing to do that to get out of this house.

 

DH and I have spent some time discussion things and he really feels that in about 5 years we are going to see some really hard times in the US....that is about the time when all those huge numbers of baby boomers will be not only retiring but draining medicare and Social Security from our resources.

 

I learned a lot from your post and several of your posts.....your home sounds really interesting and I would love to visit sometime!

 

Dawn

[Heather in Neverland]

I am really just amazed and awed by your story. Love it!!!!!

 

ETA: You have far more knowledge than I do about the "behind-the-scenes" economic issues with the U.S. government. How do you think an economic crisis (even bigger than what the U.S. faces right now) would affect a small country like Malaysia?

Edited January 13, 2011 by Heather in NC

[kristavws]

It is so refreshing to know there is another "me" on the board:D.

 

Krista

[kristavws]

well done Faith,

We live a self sufficient life. we have 10 acres, grow all our own dairy and meat. we just chopped up our pigs yesterday. We have gravity fed water from our own water tanks the water is collected of our roof ( very common in rural Australia). we have a solar hot water service that provides our hot water. I use a combustion stove for cooking and heating. I live in a temperate climate, so don't need more heating than that. We get all our wood form our own woodlot. we have a huge veggie patch, bigger than a tennis court, and an orchid with over 40 trees.

Our new projects for this year are bees, we caught a swarm in November, and solar electricity.We are just about to get solar electricity, but it will be fed back into the grid, with the electricity company paying us for producing it.

 

OOOOHHH!

 

Please tell more about the bees. This is one thing I would like to add to our farm.

 

Krista

[Vida Winter]

Fun to read your posts, Faithr!

 

We have a new greenhouse which ought to extend our growing season from 3 months to 8 or 9 months. It was completed at the end of last fall so we have not been able to grow much of anything yet - but spring is coming and we have big plans. We're also planning on a chicken coop and laying hens this spring.

 

We installed a second large propane tank but that is a temporary solution if propane delivery is interrupted. I love your wood burning solution - my neighbor has one of those systems. We should have thought of that when we built our house.

[mama2cntrykids]

Wow Faith, I really admire what your family has done! I aspire to that level, but right now I'm not near it.

 

We have a 2,500 sq. ft. home on almost 6 acres. About 3 acres are pasture. The rest are yard, house, barns (3, including one that has a workshop attached), garage, and woods. We had six chickens last year when we moved in but 5 were eventually killed by preditors and one died because she got sick. Anyway, this Spring my dh and step son plan on fixing up the chicken barn better so we don't have varmits killing the chicks we're getting this Spring. A friend and I plan on going in together on broilers and hens. Possibly turkeys too.

 

Before I got pregnant, I was researching on having a milk cow and beef calf, but that will have to go on the backburner as the baby is due in May and I really don't want that much responsibility through next summer. I do however plan on having a small garden next Spring. Nothing nearly as big as I've had in the past, just because of the babe that's coming. I honestly don't know how pioneer women *did* it. I guess it was a matter of survival. Sheesh, they were tough!

 

Anyway, I would love to have what you've described, but right now, it's not going to happen. We're just trying to get some birds, finish the basement and make the chicken barn better. Slow and steady I guess lol.

 

We do have a natural spring that is our "well" so that's good, we need electricity to power the pump though. There's a lot we would need to do to be more self-sufficent, but it's something we can work toward.

[Hockey Mom]

Thank you for sharing. :)

 

We downsized last year by moving to a smaller home. We have two boats, and we moved on the water (which is in abundance where I live) so we no longer have to store the boats, or transport them (which required a big, gas guzzling vehicle). Dh and I are both pretty good at fishing, so our plan is to fish. :D We have a massive mango tree that produces an amazing amount of mangos, and we trade with our neighbor, who has a mature avacado tree.

 

For Christmas, I bought Dh a smoker, and we plan to start smoking all of the fish we catch to help preserve some.

 

I wish we could get chickens, but our city doesn't allow it. :(

 

Dh and I just started a new business two months ago, as our current business is barely staying afloat (computer consulting/repair on site). Our new business is doing better than expected, and it is our hope to get completely out of the IT industry and do our new business full time.

 

We are stocking small amounts of cash in the safe, and hope to one day be able to move to a more rural area. That is the dream anyway. :)

 

ETA: Our reason for two boats: one is a larger boat that can hold up to 6 people. However, it also uses more gasoline. We will keep it for when we are chartering others to fish with us. Our smaller boat holds just four of us, but is able to work with much less gas (and oars if needed) and can get into the 'flats' (shallow water) where the preferred fish are.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Hockey Mom

[FaithManor]

Mama2countrykids, I always say baby steps are best. We always need time to adjust and it is sooo much better to research and have a well-thought out plan than jump in with both feet and then get in over your head.

 

HockeyMom, I think your plan is beautiful. It reflects the reality of where you live and the resources at your disposal. That's the beauty of human kind, if they can get beyond the restraints of the status quo, they are sooooo creative with their solutions.

 

Faith

[Melissa in Australia]

OOOOHHH!

 

Please tell more about the bees. This is one thing I would like to add to our farm.

 

Krista

We are completely new to bees, we caught a swarm towards the end of last year, and put them into a beehive that we had bought several years ago ready for finding a swarm.

the bees liked their new home and settled right in. we open up the hive every week, and check how they are going. if they are running out of room we add another super ( summer here with all the eucalyptus flowering). so far we have gone from 1 supper to 3 1/2 supers.

 

we have talked to a beekeeper, and he suggested as our bee colony seems so strong, we could give it a go dividing it. so we have ordered some queens, they will arrive next week. my Dh and Ds have build extra suppers etc. and when the queens arrive, we will put one frame of brood, with house bees plus 1 drawn out comb frame plus 3 frames of honey with the new queen per super. that will leave the original bee hive with old colony intact, plus hopefully two nucleus colonies that will build up into new hives.

 

The biggest thing is overcoming your own personal fear of putting your hands into a beehive full of bees. every single time either DH or I get stung. My DH likens the overcoming the fear part to jumping out of an aeroplane for skydiving and finds it very exciting(:glare:men). I don't find it that exciting

[FaithManor]

MelissaL,

 

Is it possible to "smoke" with a smudge fire your hive before handling? I've heard this makes them sluggish and less aggressive. You want to be careful about the build up of venom in the body. We can't keep bees because dh is allergic (although we've never had a cause for concern with all of the bumblebees around here - they are a happy bunch - but I sure do have to go after yellow jacket nests!) from too many stings too close together.

 

Just a thought! I think it's soo neat! My dad will be kind of on his own with his bee keeping colony because with dh very allergic and dd showing some serious signs of sensitivity, I'm not sending the boys down there to help handle them in case they are also prone to the problem.

 

But, very, very cool...I hope you find an answer to the stinging problem.

 

Faith

[Melissa in Australia]

MelissaL,

 

Is it possible to "smoke" with a smudge fire your hive before handling? I've heard this makes them sluggish and less aggressive. You want to be careful about the build up of venom in the body. We can't keep bees because dh is allergic (although we've never had a cause for concern with all of the bumblebees around here - they are a happy bunch - but I sure do have to go after yellow jacket nests!) from too many stings too close together.

 

Just a thought! I think it's soo neat! My dad will be kind of on his own with his bee keeping colony because with dh very allergic and dd showing some serious signs of sensitivity, I'm not sending the boys down there to help handle them in case they are also prone to the problem.

 

But, very, very cool...I hope you find an answer to the stinging problem.

 

Faith

 

we have a bee smoker, and we do smoke them before opening the hive. My Dh prefers to work without gloves, and if you are going to stick your hands into a beehive, you are bound to squash a bee, which will get mad and sting. I got stung last time because one worked it's way into my veil, and once in there. I sort of went mad and started running ( lost control) of course the bee got scared and stung me on the face.

 

I have one Ds allergic, we just keep antihistamine handy. He isn't deadly allergic, just swells up pretty bad.

[DarcyB]

This is my dream. (not to get stung by a bee, but self-sufficiency on a level we can do). We can't achieve it where we live here because our land is not large enough to let it happen. We live on less than a 1/4 acre, and while we can have hens, we can have no other livestock, city regulations don't allow for alternative energy sources from us enough to be useful. We do hope to be able to afford a small wind turbine for the house if we can get a cost-effective way of doing it as that is allowed right now (probably won't be for much longer the way our suburb regulates everything in the name of 'preserving housing values - it's like a gigantic HOA).

 

So our garden grows each year, I increase our pantry each year, I fill our supplies out more each year, and pray DH will give into the chicken coop each year lol. At least now I have him joking about what to name the chickens...so we've made progress.

 

We're also slowly investing in camping equipment that we can turn around and use in emergency situations, etc.

 

I dream of land, but in our life now, it's not a possibility, so we do with what we have. And I live vicariously through others talking about their lands and plans.