Wwyd behaviour issue worse at Xmas time

[woolybear]

Adding this after I typed this...please respond if you can be a bit gentle with me. I don't think I am doing this well. I'm messing up. So, if you're feeling patient and kind, give it a read and maybe a response. Thank you.

 

Sorry-- this is one big run on paragraph. This is how my brain is processing this right now. I'm not sure I can put this all down with any coherence right now. I think this is an issue every year. However, this year it seems worse. Much worse and I am at the end of my rope. Beyond it actually and I'm not sure where to go with this. Ds both seem to be having some issues listening. Especially to "stop!" I have tried this too many ways. yes, positive reinforcement helps. No, I don't expect them to be angels. I really think the issue is more what happens after we have a problem. My older ds is having a really hard time taking any direction and maybe correction. Meaning after asking for a certain thing to stop and not being listened to, both ds continued on from one annoying behaviour to the next. None of this would happen if I would jump up and start directing or playing with them, or entertaining(ie. chores, school, read alouds) from the moment they come downstairs in the morning. That is ridiculous. They need to be able to do their own thing too. Okay, back to the point. So, after I tried in more than one way to redirect, etc. I finally ended up to the point of punishing. Which I didn't want to do, because I didn't feel the behaviour was so bad, just needed to stop. At any rate, one ds goes on to clean his room, be sweet and pleasant, offer to help me. The other fought me tooth and nail on everything. Then, yodeled loudly for half an hour (clearly trying to get dh or my attention or our goat). He said at one point when both dh and I were in the room for a moment, "NOw I've got center stage!!!!" "not from me" I said and left the room. At one point he went upstairs and tied a string to his brothers door and to the dresser drawer (hoping, he told me, the dresser drawer would fall out on his brother's foot!!!) At some point I reached the point of saying if maybe there will be no Christmas here. I know it is beyond harsh. I am not happy with myself or him at this point. His response was if that is the case then he will break a lot of things here.:001_huh: I told him it was absolutely unacceptable to threaten me. He said it was not a threat, he was just telling me what will happen. He also told me at one point when I said, "No dessert." because of something that happened, he said, " I know I'll get it anyway. You always go back on it when you say something." This is in no way true. However, he is forcing the issue. Today reached a "no dessert" point. He didn't get dessert. I can't imagine why he thinks I would relent. I have, on occasion, said I have rethought something or that he had really improved his behaviour to the point that we could rescind that decision. However, that is unusual. He seems not to care about a lot of the discipline approaches. I mean, he does, but it doesn't motivate him. I swear I feel like he is pushing to have no Christmas so he has an excuse to be angry and maybe break things. It is just this feeling I have that he likes pushing me to be the bad guy and blames this all on me. He loves the drama too. I did start a bean jar to emphasize positive action and it is helpful. However, ds spent 3/4 of the day being incredibly negative, even downright mean at times. At other times, just slothful, bored or angry. At one point we talked and I looked for some, even a little, "I'll try" from him. He finally said so and five minutes was doing something which I asked him to stop doing. I can't recall just what--I think it was when he was trying to delete a draft of a letter I was thinking to send to my family. Ugh! I know I am not handling this well. I am pretty sure he is darn tired. And that is VERY hard on him. But this is attrocious. The last month has been bad, so it is not just the bad sleep of this week. However, this seems to be getting worse. I do not want to give him a present at this point. I am so fed up.

 

I am just not sure where to go with this. Help.

[In the Rain]

Gosh, it sounds really stressful. I don't have any advice, just a :grouphug:

[Catwoman]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I am so, so sorry. I can feel your frustration, and I wish I had some good advice for you. I will say, though, that you shouldn't beat yourself up for losing your patience sometimes. We all have our limits, and we all get fed up and frustrated.

 

Cat

[woolybear]

Thanks for the support. I wanted to add that when my other ds was being helpful my first ds said, "it's all in vain. He won't get any presents anyway."

I told him we don't help each other or are kind to get something in return, but it would sure help if he would be positive in some way! I don't understand the way he turns one problem into this big thing. He makes it bigger and it snowballs. I may be part of that, but jeez, would it be so hard to be a little more positive?

[AnitaMcC]

I can just feel the frustration waves from your post. :grouphug:

 

The first thought that came to my mind is ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). What you have described in your son's behavior is what my nephew has done (we raised nephew from age 9).

 

The second thought is that I have no clue or advice. :confused:

 

I would very seriously consider talking to his pediatrician about this behavior.

[Tap]

I had to take dd4 to a Behavior Therapist when she was 2yo. I needed to learn a different way to parent her and I didn't want to just try random rules/consequences. When I saw her behaviors escalating beyond my parenting skills. When I saw the violence she was capable of and acting out. When I saw that she was ruling the emotions of the house, every single day. When I was that I no longer had the energy or the strength to figure out the next step. That is when I called in professional help.

 

I have learned sooooooo much in the past 2 years of therapy ( We have graduated out and returned. I have requested restarting as she has gotten older/new behaviors have appeared). I have become a much better parent to her and to my older kids because I deal with her differently. My older kids were open to parenting that was more natural to me. She requires a very different, very purposeful parenting. Through therapy I have discovered that she requires many more rules and more immediate consequences. If she acts up, she has a consequence in less than 30 seconds. NO warnings (on everyday/common offences) or at least very, very brief ones. I will do a 1, 2, 3 (5 seconds total time elapse) type warning but that is it. NO, repetitive 'stop bouncing on the couch', 10 minutes later 'stop bouncing on the couch', 15 minutes later 'I warned you to stop bouncing on the couch and now you will have xyz consequence'. She has to have direct, consistent, immediate, mediation of her inappropriate behavior. There is no dialogue and no second chances. (Even if I rethink my decision, the consequence stands-because, just like your son, it only takes once for them to think you are going to back down all the time.) This is not natural to me, especially with a 2-4yo. We gave lots of guidance to our older kids, but few rules/consequences and they are great kids. She didn't respond to this style of parenting and our household was paying a very, very high price for the mismatch of parenting/child learning styles.

 

 

 

 

If you can't find a balance, I urge you to find out other ways to parent. I am not saying that you are a bad parent in any way, it just sounds like your son needs something different from you.

 

 

Prayers for you and yours, it is soooo hard living in a house when a child is ruling the emotional pulse!

[Bird Girl]

You sound very frustrated, and I can understand where you are coming from. However, I think that you can back down on the "no Christmas" thing. I would say that I was very tired and angry when I said that, and that I did not want to parent from a point of anger. But his behavior is causing the anger, and you will be talking to your DH and maybe your pediatrician about ways to have your son behave better.

 

It sounds like you son feels backed into a corner, too. If he felt that you and your husband were going to take charge of the situation, he might feel more relaxed and ready to change, too.

[Murmer]

:hugs: I understand what you are going through and I want to tell you that you are not a bad parent! My dd is very similar in that nothing seems to work discipline wise. I used to think that it was all my fault but the OT totally said that it was not bad parenting just that we needed smaller more deliberate parenting like the previous poster.

[simka2]

I think I have threatened to take away Christmas 5 times this week!!!! :D

 

Don't beat yourself up to much!!! We are very sarcastic in our household, and I know many would think we were mean if they couldn't see our faces.

 

Here's some things that have been said this week...

 

Ds8 about ds5, "Why does HE get to_____________?!" My response, "because we love him more!" said in very sarcastic voice with a roll of the eyes. Hey, if your gonna continually ask the same question...your gonna get sarcasim.

 

So, if ds said, "It doesn't matter anyway, he's not gonna get toys!" I probly would have said, "Ya think? Last time I checked...I could give presents to who I wanted to." Again, sarcastic smile...with a bit of warning in my voice.

 

This would probly be followed with, "Your choice is to improve your attitude and change your behaviour...then we will see what happens."

 

There's a little window into my family, hope it helps!

[Catwoman]

I think I have threatened to take away Christmas 5 times this week!!!! :D

 

Only 5 times? You'll have to work a lot harder if you're going to catch up with me! :D

 

We are very sarcastic in our household, and I know many would think we were mean if they couldn't see our faces.

 

We're the same way, and when I get angry with ds for being so sarcastic, I have only myself to blame. (Ok, I usually blame dh, but that's just so I can keep feeling good about myself. ;))

 

Cat

[LunaLee]

You say it's worse at Christmas, is it possible it could be his diet? We get so many candies, and cakes, and goodies from well wishing friends and family, but all that sugar and processed flour sets ds off if he has too much. Also, are YOU stressed? I know I'm extremely stressed during the holiday's and the kids pick up on that and they start acting out. So I have to remind myself to not be so reactive to what I am dealing with.

 

Other than that, I agree with immediate consequences or professional help if it gets to be too much. My cousin has ODD and they her parents thought they could handle it on their own, but needed to get counseling (and meds). The good news is, I've seen a world of difference since then.

 

I wish I had better advice for you...:grouphug:

[stormy weather]

I didn't read all the posts. I wanted to offer you :grouphug:.

What has worked here is for me to write out a list of consequences for certain behaviors. Then I made a list of rewards for certain positive behaviors. I gave these lists to the one I have the most difficulty with and kept a copy for myself. Then when something is going on, I can go to the list, and see what the consequence is and that's it. It's black and white and I don't make up crazy emotional stressed out consequences. The kid knows what will happen, I know what will happen. I think someone on this board reccomended "Transforming the difficult child/Glass" I haven't made it all the way through yet, but it really helped me to see that I was being "played". My reactions were rewarding the one who was stirring the pot.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Hang in there, keep laughing and try to take some time for total quiet for you.

[Rosie_0801]

My sister in particular used to always go nuts around Christmas and birthday times. Isn't that normal? :confused::lol:

 

I kinda think these times require different tactics and Mr Attention Seeking probably really needs the attention. Perhaps he feels like his usual share of your attention is going on totally unnecessary (to a kid) things like organising stuff. Perhaps it would help if you act as though you are madly in love with him and say soppy stuff like "Oh dear son, your poor old mother desperately needs your help to (whatever,) what a wonderful boy you are, let me smooch you!" That used to work on my brother anyway :D

 

Rosie

[Parrothead]

Where is dad in all this?

 

Yes, ds needs to respect you for who you are, but there is a lot to be said for consequences that come from father to son. There is also a lot to be said about how the alpha male expects the other males to treat the alpha female. If nothing else dh letting ds know in no uncertain terms, "That is my wife and you will treat her with respect or you will answer to me."

 

That said, don't threaten. If you feel he needs to wait on Christmas a week or a month then that is what you need to do. Calmly start packing away the presents, the tree and whatever other Christmas decor you have. Make sure dad is present at the time.

 

If you think your ds needs behavioral therapy then get him to the doctor for a referral. It should be that simple.

[Little Nyssa]

:grouphug:

Hi, we have moments of being just where you are.

I just have a few thoughts:

1. you need a break. I hope somebody can give you even one hour to take a breath, alone.

2. some dedicated time where DS does really get the attention he wants, each day, so he knows it is coming.

3. immediate consequence that could break the cycle of: him misbehaving, you threatening, repeat ad lib. I recently read Parenting Your Strong Willed Child and their system of time outs helped. I have always said time-outs do not work for our family, but I took a deep breath and tried again and it is working!! You probably have already tried this but just in case you haven't. It really helped us.

4. Hang in there!!!:grouphug:

[myfunnybunch]

:grouphug: You're not a bad mom. You've got an intense child, which brings along incredible enthusiasm and passion, but also intense challenges too.

 

It could be any number of things about the holidays....

 

Sugar galore. During the holidays, we get cookies from neighbors, candy canes, we bake, we make gingerbread houses. I notice a change in my boys' behavior.

 

Changes in routine during the holidays can really challenge some kids. I am more preoccupied too, trying to get the holiday checklist taken care of, which means that there's less attention to go around. And the kids seem to get less sleep because we're enjoying our family time and they can't sleep because they're excited.

 

Anticipation of the holiday....nervousness over whether or not there will be presents, excitement over the festivities, anticipation and having to wait wait wait.

 

What I'm reading is a escalating cycle of behavior-consequences-more challenging behavior-heavier consequences-stronger behavior. One way to break the chain is to change the cycle at the beginning when it's your "turn". Instead of "No dessert" maybe this: "You seem really upset right now. What can I do to help you calm down?" and wait for a reasonable answer. (Your son sounds quite bright, so he may come up with some doozies, but you just keep saying in a concerned way, "I'm serious, honey. I don't want to argue, I want to help. How can we work this out.") Or "Let's talk about this in a few minutes when we've both had a chance to think and calm down." Or my favorite, because it gets the kiddo out of my hair for a bit, "You seem to be stressed and tense. How about a warm bath/shower/cup of tea. Then we'll start over." It may seem counter-intuitive, but this approach actually keeps you in control of the interaction because you're not allowing him to escalate.

 

I have a ds who, when he gets overwhelmed and awful, responds really well to building a blanket fort in the corner and cooling off in his own space. When he emerges, he's usually at least semi-human again.

 

And I agree with the posters who suggested immediate and predictable consequences for the behaviors that are unacceptable. Although I'd try for consequences that don't punish everyone else too. It really wouldn't be fair to your other ds (or you, or your dh) to pack away all of the Christmas things or to spend your holiday making sure he doesn't get to participate, kwim?

 

:grouphug: You're using positive techniques: keeping the boys occupied, redirection and positive reinforcement. You're not allowing him to just run over you and do what he wants even when he's angry and obnoxious. You expect him to behave like a civilized being and you want to help him learn. You're asking for help and advice. You're a good momma. Keep it up.

 

Cat

[Laura Corin]

How much exercise is he getting? I have found that at least an hour of hard exercise per day - do you have an indoor pool to do to if the weather is bad? - makes all the difference to behaviour.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Chris in VA]

Sounds like he's afraid.

Perhaps he's secretly afraid his behavior is connected to your love for him, and he wants desperately to disprove that theory, therefore he'll be really bad and see if you still love him--and he's equating love with YOUR behavior, probably present-giving (it's a concrete way we show love, so he's picked up on it as an indicator that you love/approve of/accept him). This could be why it shows up at Christmas. So when you threaten "no presents," he gets even more scared (deep down) and wants to see if you mean it.

 

I'd take the suggestions of those posters who say to give him more direction, more attention, more goopy lovey stuff (Rosie...as usual! love it!). You've got to bolster his confidence, and make him understand and disconnect love/behavior. He needs to "get it" that you love him, period, but his behavior does have consequences--but loss of your love isn't one of them. ETA--and it's excellent advice for you to break the chain of escalation--that's where we went wrong, so ITA with that.

 

I actually do think some family therapy would be good--just a few sessions to learn how to parent him (like Tap said, it's not that you are a bad mom--NOT at all--but he made need a different strategy that's learnable for you) more effectively.

[NanceXToo]

I'm sorry.

 

Do you think he maybe feels that your younger son gets more attention or something?

 

Does he have any activity or some such that's just for him- something that would teach him a good attitude and some self discipline... maybe some sort of martial arts/self defense class (where he can learn respect AND get extra exercise and so on)... maybe a scout group... some such.

 

Does he get to do things one on one with you? With your husband? Maybe you guys can start alternating leaving one child behind with one parent to do something together while the other parent and child go out on a special outing and the next week (or month or whatever) switch.

 

Maybe when he's being very calm and you guys are getting along you and he can do something quiet and fun together and just kind of chat about how you love him so much and you wish that you and he could get along better and not fight so much and what does he think- maybe you'll be surprised at what he tells you when you're having an intimate moment together.

 

Maybe he needs some sort of counseling or behavior therapy. Has he always had a hard time with his behavior/controlling himself, or is it a more recent thing? Maybe you should talk to his doctor.

 

Is he on any sort of medication that might be affecting his personality?

 

I'm sorry, it sounds really difficult and stressful, I hope that things improve one way or another! :grouphug:

 

ETA: P.S. You should try reading the book "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk."

[Renee in NC]

I am going to agree with others who said behavior therapy if this is normal behavior for him.

 

:grouphug: Parenting is a lot harder than I thought it would be. Sometimes I wish I could just beat them like they did in the old days!:lol: (kidding people, kidding. sort of.:tongue_smilie:)

[rwilliams]

My approach to this type of problem to first make sure that I have provided my child with the best possible chance of good behavior. This means good nutrition (no sugar and lots of protein), lots of gross motor which is two to three hours a day, and a fun stimulating environment. The gross motor part.....I noticed when my son was around 2 that his behavior drastically declined in oct and nov. What was up? Since I am an occupational therapy assistant, I was able to see the sensory connection. It was a lack of gross motor! Slowly it would build until he was hyper, annoying and just plan difficult. I see this with kids all the time now that I know what to look for. Fun, stimulating environment does not mean that I entertain him all day but that he has enough out of the house activities to ward off boredom.

 

Next, I provide a very structured approach to behavior. I will not give mulitple warnings. Just one and then the conseqence. Find what is the most effective and use that as the consequence. Taking away a toy for the day, time out in a boring room. The consequence for my son is always immediate and mild. I escalate the consequence if mild does not work. I am prepared to stop my day to win this battle over his behavior if needed. It usually will only take about an hour on a really trying day becasue he knows that I mean business. This does not work for my husband at all because he has a history of not following through and giving multiple warnings. He bascially is at the mercy of my son for good behavior. Basically my motto is.....unless you are "in check" meaning submitting to my authority as your parent by listening when I give you instructions about things nothing else will occur until we get this straight. As soon as my son decides it is in his best interest to go along with my program...all the good things come back. I am a very fun Mom and he knows that no fun will occur when he is out of check. I also try to catch him being good and pay him attention when he is respectful or kind or does what I ask with a good attitude.

 

If I know that he has not had an outlet for his energy or had too much sugar I ignore the behavior for the most part and provide him with those things that I feel he needs. I then raise my expectations.

[woolybear]

So much wonderful advice here and some questions asked and I don't think right now I can respond to them all. (One more thing adding to the problems around here--Mom on the computer too much and I know it too. Trying to do better today.)

 

It does get worse around now, but I do not think it is too much sugar or even excitement. I think it is a change in the routine. Add to that we have a new tenant downstairs, Dad isn't working as of a few weeks ago (and has taken on kitchen remodeling project. This means a lot of issues--Dad is around, but not very available, power tools are too enticing, lots of hammering, etc. while trying to read aloud, etc.) Oh, also, dh w/out work also means money problems.

 

The only other time we have seen things to this degree (well, it was worse) was when he had Lyme disease. Dh thinks he may again. I think more likely it is all this other things going on.

 

I think I will try some of the advice here before trying professional help. I do think he definitely needs more exercise. I'm not sure how to manage this. We do go outside, but I am not thrilled to be out there for 2+ hours when it is below 20 degrees. We have an indoor gym day, but that is just once a week. A class would be just once a week and more than that we cannot afford.

 

I think the more immediate consequences combined with lots of love sound like a good place to start. I like the fort idea too.

 

Today went much better. I packed up all our school stuff and went to the library. I think being away from dh (distraction) and his working (even bigger distraction) really helped. After that we had gym day. Two and half hours of running around and playing legos with friends did him a world of good. He came home and told Dad about a "research paper" he decided to write on puff ball mushrooms. He played with his legos for hours peacefully. He even helped his younger brother with math. He has been doing Teaching Textbooks on the computer. He taught his brother how to use the program and helped him get started. He was kind to him and helpful in general.

 

So, hm....what is different? Out of the house, friends, exercise. Any more suggestions for how to help him get more exercise consistently? We do go on walks, but not enough to meet that need. There is a pool at the Y, but I don't think we can afford the membership.

 

Thank you for all your help. I know I did not address what each poster said that was helpful or suggested, but truly, I think this is a BIG part of the problems around here--me on computer too much. Did I mention my boys were playing detective the other day and then had me arrested for being on the computer too much?:leaving:

[rwilliams]

Try to identify the pieces that worked for you yesterday and start a mental list of things that help with good behavior. So far, out of the house, gross motor, play with friends......

 

Here is how I get gross motor in the winter.....

 

Fun nights at local gymnastic place...drop off

Holiday camp this week through the local recreation and parks...sports oriented

Karate 3 nights a week (very affordable)

gymnastic classes 2 nights a week

homeschool PE class once a week

 

Other ideas for you if budget is a concern

 

Most recreation gyms have free play/time in our city. Could you invite a friend or two to meet you weekly at the gym for free time.

 

Our local McDonalds has a huge indoor play area.......Meet friends or go by yourself

 

Ice skating at indoor facility

 

Indoor trampoline is great!

 

Find indoor games that are fun......create sometype of game or contest wtih your boys where they go through a set of challenges in your house daily and record the time or repetitions. keep a log with a reward at the end. You could call it the Ultimate Fitness Challenge or something and you do it with them. Maybe obstacle courses in the house or the amazing race type activity.

 

Once you can easily provide the things that encourage good behavior, start a mental list of things that seem to promote bad behavior. This will help you be a more effective facilitator of good behavior by manipulating the schedule and flow of activities for your best advantage. Good Luck!

 

Also, indoor swimming is really great for sensory! and just plan making kids tired!! My son was exhausted yesterday after 8 hours of sports themed holiday camp! :) I was thrilled. If I can get him tired before Christmas, I can have more manageable behavior with less routine, more candy and just general excitement! :)

[jujsky]

Other than the wanting to hurt others and break things, this pushing behavior sounds a lot like what I experience from my son. The key is to NEVER go back on what you say (if you say no to something, stick to it -- even if it seems trivial) because if you give pushers an inch they will take a mile. Give him a warning with a consequence and then if he fails to do that, follow through with the consequence -- always. Even that one or two times of giving in is going to lead to comments like he made about the dessert. I've told DS no this or that before and forgotten as the day wore on. I've gotten that whole, "You always give it to me anyway," or "You always forget," from him before so I had to refocus my efforts and try not to forget.

 

This behavior where he wants to hurt someone (he was hoping the dresser would fall on his brother's foot) and the fact that you truly believe he wants you to cancel Christmas so he can have the excuse to act out and destroy things has me worried. That's not typical behavior of a little boy -- even one who constantly tests his boundaries. I'm saying this as gently as I can, but have you considered taking him to a counselor? For whatever reason, it sounds like he has a lot of anger he needs to address.

 

Good luck with your situation. Oh, and don't feel bad about losing your cool. We ALL have bad mommy moments!